Zoe Audio

The conversation discusses the importance of sustainability in the travel and hospitality industry, focusing on how media plays a significant role in storytelling and shaping brands. It highlights the shift towards more responsible and sustainable tourism practices, with guests prioritizing environmental and social impact. Examples like luxury hotels incorporating regenerative experiences and backpackers choosing trains over planes are mentioned. The dialogue emphasizes the need for hotels and destinations to align with the growing demand for sustainability, showcasing practices such as renewable energy and responsible building design. Yes, I can see you. I can hear you. All is well. Yes, I can hear you. I can't hear you. You can't hear me. Why is that happening? Oh my gosh. Let me try. Can you hear me now? It's fine now. I think it was just a delay. I think it was just a delay. Okay. Just one second. Let me switch back to what I had before. Okay. Is this better? Can you hear me now? You can't hear me again. No, I can. I can. Okay, you can. Okay, great. That's good. This works because this means my... So the DJI and all of that works much better this way. Okay. Gosh, good. Yeah. All good. Thank you, Zoe, for doing this. No problem. You have a 4.10. It is, yeah. Less said than done, right? We'll continue. We're resilient. Okay, yeah. Yeah. Resilience is a thing right now. Yeah, isn't it? Yes, yeah. So good. So let me do the introduction, and then we'll get into questions. And if it gets stopped off, we'll come back in again. Okay? So no rush. Okay. So nothing's on video. Nothing's on video. Yeah, yeah, because we're like stay home. I'm like, yes, we're still going to do this, so let's do audio. Exactly. So I'm not in the... No, no, because I'm not in the studio either. We just received an alert saying stay home. Oh, no. Okay, well. I know, right? So I was like, okay, let's do this. I've got my DJI. My marketing says this is really good, so let's start. I believe, Mariam, yes. Good. So let's start. Okay. Hi, welcome back to Sustainability Stories Podcast. I'm your host, Radhika Arapalli. Today, we're speaking to an interesting personality, Joey Bourpont. Joey began her career in media in London before moving into the travel industry more than 15 years ago as general manager of Europe's famous hotels. Europe's famous hostels. Let me do that. Joey Bourpont began her career in media in London before moving into the travel industry more than 15 years ago as general manager of Europe's famous hostels. She later became a consultant for hotels and hostels and for the past nine years has worked with Condé Nast Johannes as their luxury expert based in Barcelona. Today, Joey works across Europe, helping hospitality business on their sustainability journeys. She also leads the E&C committee for Europe's famous hostels, supporting more than 17 hostels in advancing responsible hospitality. This is a great episode, Joey, because I've not had someone who's got so much of media influence, marketing, telling us all about the storytelling, how to get into what really drives sustainability from the guest perspective. So, I'm looking forward to this. And to get started, Joey, I really want to get your perspective into how did you get into marketing and sustainability? Hi, Radhika. Well, for me, obviously, I began in media. We've discussed this before. And then I'm working in marketing and magazines. And then as I started working in travel, for me, I really felt that people were trying to travel in a different way. And I could see there was an intention to be part of something a little bit bigger because we know that in the tourism industry, we're responsible for quite a lot of carbon footprint. There's the way people travel in hotels and also waste and recycling. And I think from luxury to backpacker market, there was a desire to travel in a more sustainable way but without having fewer adventures or fewer trips or less excitement. There was still a wonderlust but wanting to travel in a more responsible way. And so, obviously, hotels, hostels, they have to react to this. And we've seen different journeys from different ends, whether it's corporate or boutique. But everyone is now starting a hospitality sustainable journey. So, I think it's great to have an improvement in the industry. And on that note, Zoe, from a media perspective, because remember we're talking to a media guru here. So, from that perspective of the media lens, what actually makes a sustainability story lead or land with the readers today? Well, I think, yeah. So, media, as we know, they can make or break a destination or a company or a hotel. And we see more and more with influences in social media now. Fifteen years ago, this wasn't such a thing. But now we can see destinations that become so popular that they now have over tourism or certain Instagrammable places that there are queues of people taking photos. But it also has saved places where they would never have some exposure. They would never be heard of or remote locations. So, I think we have to take media to both sides. There's a story telling that enables places to sell themselves to a much wider audience, a global audience, for smaller destinations especially or more unique places. And for larger places, we know there's obviously problems with over tourism. But I feel like media is there to be used both ways. So, your story is how you make it. We have a lot of user-generated content now. So, there are some things you can't control how other people are going to tell your story. But you can definitely position your brand in such a way that you're asking people to see it a certain way and join that story with you, be part of the story of your brand or your destination. So, we're inviting guests to contribute as part of this experience. But we also want them to enjoy it in a sustainable way, to leave destinations better than they found them. All this kind of more sustainable, meaningful ways of travel. But we also have to be careful with media because we know that we, in certain situations, media can also be very unfriendly to a hotel or a destination. So, it's very much about not manipulating but really using what we have to tell the stories and to position your brand in such a way that it resonates with its audience. So, you have to know your guests. And there's really researchers staying with you who matches your brand and really work together to provide an experience that works for both of you. Then you'll have great reviews. Your guests will have good experiences. Everyone will be happy. So, I think a lot of this is to use media to your advantage, to really showcase and tell the story of your brand. And then the guests will, you know, the more they know about a destination or about a hotel or wherever it is they're looking to stay, then the more informed they are, the more they understand and can manage expectations of what the experience will really be. So, I think the deeper we dive into telling a good story, the more likely we are to have happy guests and a deeper experience, a more meaningful experience. Absolutely. I think, look, I'm based in Dubai and I can only tell you Brand Dubai has done so much work in terms of storytelling. And that's a classic example of what does marketing do to a brand and how it's involved visitors, residents and everyone alike to shape that ethos, right? But from a sustainability perspective, because we're talking about sustainability, have you seen destinations that are different in telling a sustainability story? Yes, I mean, that's obviously a paradox because if we're traveling, we know we're being less sustainable just by leaving a house. But, of course, we're in an area of more conscious wanderlust where people, we have been for decades, travelers told us this dream of more places, more flights, more stamps on your passport. Influencers are telling us you can go here for 48 hours or a weekend here or a weekend there, especially in Europe or Dubai even, short trips just to experience something very quickly. But I think now the story is changing. So, sustainable tourism, I think the market is exploding. We have projects now, multi-trillion dollar sector by the end of this decade. And young people are prioritizing environmental, social impact for their choices. The shift is happening across every tier. Luxury market, obviously, reinventing themselves with regenerative experience. It's not just spas anymore. It's more coral reef restoration. There's more corporate practices where luxury meets wilderness or regenerative farming, zero-waste kitchens. There's a lot of things happening that are trying to lead a bit of a sustainable revolution. So, I think, you know, for the backpackers, the young people are choosing trains over planes, a little slower travel because they have time, and more community projects or conservation projects. And I think, you know, it's a different budget but a similar philosophy where we see in the high-end markets, you want to choose a luxury hotel that has responsible practices, that has responsible water use. If they're infinity pool, if you're in a desert. I mean, in Dubai, you have, like, there's a heavy pressure to be very responsible with your practices in an area when you have, like, water shortage or these kind of things. So, I think, from a sustainable point of view, we know that guests are looking for more sustainable practices. They're finding that attractive when they book. And we're also finding that hotels, obviously, especially larger groups that have the budget, are really diving into what can they do to make a smaller carbon footprint, whether it's, like, local food, produce, the chain, the supply chain, everything like this. I think it's really, we have to think about the philosophy that's there with the traveler and how the hotels and backpacker places can match this with really getting into, like, responsible, like, even building design. You know all about this, especially in the Middle East. It comes from the seed right in the beginning. So, you're, we're trying to now, for the next years, the next decades, definitely be responsible in what we create for tourism. So, I mean, for example, the Crown Plaza in Copenhagen, as a hotel, it has, it's quite famous for the architecture. It has a solar facade. And they have a groundwater cooling system. So, actually, the hotel is run 100% on renewable energy. They don't use anything. They're almost off-grid in the middle of the city. So, as a, you know, their eco-practice is there. I think it's, they show that it's scalable. It's a large hotel, very large. So, it's not just smaller eco-lodges that can say, you know, we're collecting our gray water to reuse from the showers, et cetera. I think, I think places like that, we can see that it's just, it's scalable. It's possible to be, to use these projects. Or, like, the Iron Adventure Hotel in Iceland, it's an old, it's an old geothermal plant. So, when you stay there, it's very much an experience. It's been renovated. And it's also a luxury meets wilderness. And it's run, obviously, entirely on geothermal energy because of, you know, historically, that's what it is. So, I think there are some very unusual places that we can go and experience that are very much eco-focused. But there's also new places that are now being built with this in mind to be designed to be eco-friendly and sustainable for the future. And talking about these trending hotels, actually, is there a particular trend that you see will matter most in the next three to five years? Well, we've been looking at trends that we don't like, such as pop-up tourism. So, you know, we're not fans of people flying somewhere for one night for a dinner or for photos on Instagram. It's very much in Europe with the cheap flights. You know, for €20, maybe you can go to Paris tonight. But it's really not eco-friendly. So, we're really hoping that that trend goes away. So, the pop-up tourism or the 48-hour tourism. I think regenerative trends, I think we're going to see come up. So, beyond eco, I think very much we'll be focused on not just doing less harm. You know, sustainability used to be being more regenerative, do less harm. But I think now we're talking about leaving places better. So, rewilding tourism, coral planting experiences, wildlife monitoring trips. Things that travelers can participate in, not just observe. And also, I think we're going to see a rise in quiet travel. So, there are things like, you know, stargazing, northern lights, traveling, wildlife safaris that are not in peak times of day. So, take pressure off your destination. It's more of experience something without all the crowds. We're also seeing AI-optimized travel. So, as we know, AI is becoming a huge part of sustainability as a tool. It's already being used for optimizing flights or reducing fuel burn or cutting food waste in hotels, managing energy systems in resorts. But I think soon we're going to see AI helping with redirecting tourism flows. So, we know with over-tourism, so for example, Barcelona or Amsterdam and Venice, you know, we have in Europe, we have some hot spots that get very full. But they all have nearby places that with secondary destinations that can take on extra visitors and, you know, work with this to make it a more sustainable place just to redirect some of the tourism. So, I think that will be a trend also. We've seen a lot of tourism jet-setting when they're visiting film locations or television locations. I think that's becoming bigger. People quite like to go and see where things were filmed. And with that, also, fan travel. So, we had a lot of people in Europe going to see Game of Thrones set places. So, there's quite a fan community. So, that's still happening. There's a lot of fans out there that also really buy into travel storytelling. So, for them, I mean, Croatia was so busy for a while and Dubrovnik, everyone was going to see Game of Thrones. So, I think that's also a trend we're going to see. But I think that the media is slowly moving away from aspirational travel. So, a lot of influencers used to show this amazing lifestyle of these places were extremely luxury and high-end. And now, there's much more of a move towards more responsible storytelling. So, we're also seeing not just Dubai highlights. You must see a lot of that. But also, the kind of unique places. Because now, we're seeing, you know, there's been people are getting, they've seen so much in their feed for the last 15 years of where should I go. Now, even the influencers are under pressure to come up with something really unique. So, I think now there's a move towards local culture and conservation. We see more interest in indigenous knowledge and slow journeys. And there's less kind of, oh, look at this beach. It's much more, here's how tourism has affected this village. I think there's a deeper thought on how people travel and where they're going. So, I think that will definitely trend. So, regenerative travels, I think, are beyond just eco-travel and some quiet travel and local. Everything about, you know, souvenirs aren't the thing people want to bring home anyway. It's much more about handmade local products or local produce or food or ceramics or something. So, I think the local, buying things inside your destination, keeping things local will hopefully continue as a trend. Oh, amazing. Amazing. It sounds inspiring when I hear that. And that also makes me wonder, do travelers actually care so much? Like, what percentage care about sustainability or do they only care when it's effortless, let's say? Any indicators that you can tell us on that, Zoe? Well, yes. So, we have lots. I mean, this is also an issue because there's an intention gap. So, when there are surveys from booking.com or hotel.com or any, you know, European Travel Commission on do you want to travel more sustainably, different age groups all respond between 60 percent, 70 percent, 80 percent saying, yes, we want to travel more sustainably, especially older generations and younger generations. So, they all say this is exactly what they want. And then when you present them with sustainable offers at a higher price, they will go for the lower price. Not every time, but there's an intention and action. And the gap in between is quite remarkable. So, despite all the surveys saying everyone wants to travel more sustainably, if you make it very inconvenient or expensive, they will still go for a better value offer that's more convenient to them. So, we really have an obligation in the tourism industry to make things easier for the traveler because the more we push on them that it's their fault that they're causing higher carbon footprint, the more we're having, okay, well, I'm going to forget about sustainable practices and just enjoy my holiday. So, I think there's a big area of integrating sustainable practices that you would normally have at home, such as recycling everything, really taking that on holiday with you. It doesn't mean it's a break from being sustainable as well just because you're having a break from day-to-day life. So, we've actually seen quite a few studies on this in Europe and different countries react differently to it. And quite a few countries say, oh, when I go on holiday, I decide, yeah, I'm not recycling my water bottle and I don't care about everything because I'm having a break from my sustainable normal day-to-day practices. But luckily, a lot of people say, no, I take my refillable bottle on holiday and I try and respect where I am and look for recycling when I'm out and about. And, you know, they really try to be part of the solution, not the problem. So, yeah, there's an intention gap, but we are told that people care. So, we're going to go with the positive on that and hope that that's true. That tells me two things, right? I mean, that tells me two things. One, of course, a very hopeful lot. Otherwise, being a sustainability career-oriented and with passion, you can't look forward to the next day. The next one is, the next one is, it seems to me that it has to make commercial sense and only then sustainability gets that increased adaption and acceleration towards things, right? So, that's still the common denominator, let's say. Yes, I mean, with big businesses especially, it comes down to the bottom line and sustainability, if it's a cost, it has to show that it's going to be, in the next five years, it's going to make financial sense also. So, if we're asking, you know, to do a retrofit in a building and put in all your solar panels, it's going to be a huge upfront cost. But the message to get across is actually sustainability makes financial sense. So, we need companies to buy into the fact that it's better to have local suppliers for them. It's better to, you know, please don't buy everything in bulk from overseas and get it shipped to you. Please look locally as you're building or developing higher locally, train locally. Let's not forget sustainability, also a huge part of it is about the people and the community and your destination. So, be an organic, you know, part of your destination. Make sure you're employing local people, upskilling, training, all these things that are really important to the community that you're part of. And obviously, with building, we have all the problems with building work. If you're, you know, it's not a sustainable practice generally. So, we have to find ways to make it as green as possible. But yeah, we have to hope that people do care about this. Otherwise, you know, it's all the time. No, I don't. Yeah. That's a narrative change. Yeah. Correctly. And that's a narrative change over the decades. I mean, sustainability, arguably, in the last decade has, you know, gone through a change. But has that narrative changed? Or is it always financial imperative over everything else? No, I think it's definitely changed because when we talked about being sustainable 10 years ago, everyone thought that meant eco-friendly and staying in an eco-lodge somewhere. And then we realized that the eco-lodge had cut down some rainforests and it was taking water from the local supply and it wasn't eco-friendly at all. It was just somewhere very beautiful in the wilderness. So, I think the greenwashing became—I think people wised up to what was happening in the narrative. There was too much greenwashing taking place. Things weren't eco-friendly in their practices. The supply chain was a problem. Maybe they had an eco-friendly building, but their supply chain was not. So, I think in the last 10 years, when we began saying to people, please be eco-friendly, there was an intention to. And then they felt a little bit like they were part of the greenwashing themselves, buying into it and reading signs saying, oh, save energy, don't use another towel in your hotel. And then feeling guilty all week on holiday because you want a fresh towel. I mean, I think that some of these things are, you know, the energy-saving, the water-saving. I think we began with concepts, and the narrative was very much about being a responsible traveler. And now we're into data and monitoring. So, we are now in an age where greenwashing sells, you know. Greenwashing used to sell places. Now we can't do this. It's now measurable data. We want to see evidence and reports in bigger, especially bigger corporations, of the energy usage reductions, water savings, waste data. It's not just marketing anymore. It was very much eco-friendly with marketing, and now we're about metrics. That's a beautiful change. And I suppose, from your experience working with multiple hotels, are you seeing more data and transparency in what's being reported? Yes, definitely. So, even with smaller places, much smaller places, you see really nice transparency with who they're working with, if they're certified. We're getting rid of this self-certification and eco badges that didn't mean anything. It just made guests suspicious and very skeptical about the whole business. So, now we're looking at real sustainability, verified transparency, third-party certifications, carbon transparency, local hiring policies, supply chains. disclosure, all these things that were so important. I think they're now quite normal, especially in Europe. It's very normal to have these in your end-of-year reports that anyone can request. Also, you see stickers or notices around a hotel or a hostel saying, we have this practice and this practice, and we have this certification. And it's actually very nice to see that people care and they're informed. It's a constant reminder this is important, I think. Every time you go in the hotel bathroom, you see signs about their water and water use. It makes you really think, okay, these guys really care about this, they're on it, and I'm a part of this, and we're all trying to be responsible. I think it's much more engaging. The narrative has changed from eco-friendly and let's stay somewhere that's kind of a soft nature place to now being, you can be in an urban location and still be sustainable and responsible. It's different now. Oh, beautiful. And that's a good migration that's happening, right? And if you're seeing it, I mean, with your experience of working across 70 hostels, if you're seeing that kind of narrative come through, that is inspiring. Definitely. I mean, for Condé Nast, I work with hotels in Spain, luxury hotels, and all of them are really following best practice. They're all very in Spain, especially with energy and renewable energy and water, water usage are all problems in Spain. So those hotels I work with all have policies, are all following things. And within the hostel industry, they're mostly much smaller, but some of them are 700 beds. These can be really big businesses, but they are definitely more eco-conscious, especially with their travelers because of the age market. But I think we're seeing definitely a move away from fake eco-resorts or protecting nature. I think travelers are getting smarter and demanding more, and they want to see evidence, certification, and no more greenwashing. They have access to all this information we do. They're reading, they're researching, and they're using AI. They can find out straight away about what a hotel's policy is. They're much more integrated into the experience now. There's no mystery about what a hotel's doing and their practices. It's very much out there. You have to be transparent, and that's a good thing. I think that's a great thing. Yeah, and just because you see multiple hostels and hotels and you read a lot of narratives, can you give us a checklist, Joy? In 2026, what checklist would you give us to say as you put out your sustainability narrative? I mean, you've told us some of the things, like data being one. Is there anything else you would want us to add to the checklist? I think it's really important that you have something about your recycling practices because I've been to places where I've been quite critical and thought, wow, they're not recycling anything. There's nothing in the room about recycling. There's nothing in the hallway as a place to put plastic bottles. In larger hotels, when I've asked at reception and they've said, oh, everything that goes in the bins, they're then thwarted. We take recycling out of your hands. We do it ourselves. Don't worry about this. This is taking place. Actually, Ibirastar is an example of this. Recently, I was in Ibirastar, and they actually had a little notice in the room saying, don't worry about recycling. We do it all. Put everything in the same bin, and we're going to take care of it. I just thought, okay, that's great because sometimes you're thinking, wow, this hotel's got really bad sustainable practices. Then you find out, oh, no, they're ahead of it. I think it's really recycling policy should be quite clear. I think that's something that's good to know because not every place does recycle. It kind of feels shocking, but I think it's good to make that quite clear to your guests. Water, if you're using gray water from the showers, if you have a little sign saying we water our gardens with our gray water or the rain water, I think these things to find out that you're a very nice swimming pool and the gardens aren't wasting water. I think people are conscious of this in a location, especially somewhere like Egypt or Dubai or where you know water usages are going to be an issue. Also, food policy about waste. If you have your buffets, especially in the larger hotels, we have an extremely nice selection for breakfast. I think there's always some guilt when you see how many plates have been taken away with a full of croissants or something. I think there should just be a little bit of clarity. Inform your guests how your sustainable practices are helping local communities, how they can be part of this, if there are any companies or charities you work with. I think it's quite important if you are part of a community that helps or supports local groups, you should promote this. The Troop is a hotel hostel group, but they have all the things you can buy. They have bags, et cetera, that are made from local groups of disabled children, and it's really nice that you can buy a product that's helping a local organization. I think if you're working with local groups or charities or organizations or NGOs, it's very nice to promote this, and not just for marketing, but just to inform your guests that this is something that they're contributing to. It makes it nice for the guests to think that I'm part of something that's helping the local environment or local community. That's a very clear cut answer, what you've given us. If I go back to the next question, The next question is, you know, sometimes you don't want to overdo on the communication, because there's always brands that are very sensitive in terms of what do we tell the guests. You just don't want to be out there. It's got to be a calm, strange experience versus putting too many messages. So what advice, because some brands take it right, and they really are able to display at this exact correct point, like water in the bathroom, recycling in the guest room, food policy at buffet. But what is your recommendation when it comes to guest communication and in-house? How do we enhance the guest experience? I think, yeah, we do have to make sure we're not bombarding our guests with information, because they are here to just relax mostly, or have an adventure, etc. They're not here to hear all about our sustainability and practices. So I do understand that we don't want to over-communicate this, but it should be an integral part of our brand story. So when you think of a certain hotel brand, you should know that they definitely are responsible with renewable energy, they have passive architecture, smart lighting, etc. All these things, we should just expect, and obviously the large brands have the budget for this, so I'd be very surprised if the big hotels didn't have any of this. But we don't need to constantly be saying, we use LED lights. This should be a minimum for anyone. That's not something we need to be communicating with our guests in our social media. No more LED in 2026. Yeah, we don't need to hear that. Or even your grey water recycling systems, it's not interesting for guests necessarily. But you can have something that says, oh, it's nice when they have little videos. We do rainwater harvesting. We help local communities. It can be a very short story. We have farm-to-table food. This is often used, especially in boutiques. This is used as a marketing point. Seasonal menus, plant-based menus, and farm-to-table food is very much marketing, but it's also the food they offer in their boutique hotels. Fine, that's part of your photos, your storytelling, your reels on your Instagram or TikTok or whatever. So that's understandable. But I think, yeah, we don't want to bombard people saying we have LED lights and we recycle the water. I think we're beyond this now. I think if you have something extremely interesting to tell, so if you're in an adaptive youth, it's a great one. So if you're in a building that already existed and you've reformed it and transformed it into a hotel or a hostel, for example, in Switzerland, there's a prison, and it's now this actually beautiful place to stay in a form of prison in the beautiful mountains in Switzerland. So they have a story about this, and they've actually done a very good job of being really like a very good example of sustainability. But I think places that have old buildings that have refitted with sustainable materials or made like efficient insulation or these things, they're part of a new ecosystem. They're using buildings and repurposing, and they're generally repurposing a lot of other material to be used in it, and it becomes part of their story because as a brand, they're then known for being a kind of reuse, recycle. It's a kind of interesting story. So with new builds, we don't have that bit. We have set really nice architectural plans that really use the space well and everything that you work with, all of this, obviously. And I think we need to watch out for the red flags. No, that's true. Yeah. Yeah. No. In your brand, make sure your story is, well, true. It sounds bad. We don't want any greenwashing in there. Also, the red flags, you know, we don't want to hear tiny little efforts to recycle in your brand story. We want to hear that it's part of the company's philosophy. Totally. I think this is the thing that we both know, the sustainability journey. It's not where you are on the ladder. It's just that you've started something, and you're trying your best to make progress. So I think the idea is just telling your customers and your guests and your community that you're in your journey. You're making tracks. You're doing what you can. You're involving your staff, and you're involving your guests. And as things come along, as projects come along, that's how it will develop. But I don't think every detail needs to be shared on any kind of small wins. I think it just has to be embedded in the ethos of the company. Totally. And I think I always ask the properties that I work with, like, as you know, we work with 50 other hotels too, and we always say, develop a unique story. Because more and more, not every property has the luxury of being, you know, great tour converted or having this amazing. We work with a lot of urban hotels who probably don't have the sea or don't have a resort experience to actually tell a story. So then what do you do? You have to find something that you are good at, that you are unique to your brand and localize it to your context. So it's a learning curve, but definitely there's a lot to do in terms of how it's being told. Right. So on that note, Zoe, I want to get to having some rapid fire rounds with you before we log off. So quick question. No right or wrong answer, but just knowing your personality. I think it'll be fun to hear, you know, what you have to say. So first one. When you travel personally, what's one non-negotiable sustainability habit you stick to? I always have a water bottle with me to refill. Always, anywhere I go, every day. And I have a tote bag that I can unroll to use. Is there a water bottle brand or something that I can include in the show notes? And I actually do have one that's really good. Okay, hold on. Should I go get it and show you? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, sure, certainly. So these ones, ocean bottle. Oh, yeah. So ocean bottle, this bottle has stopped 1,000 plastic bottles from entering the ocean. This was actually given to me at UREL. But it comes into different, you can use it as a thermos, as a cup. It comes into different places. I have a few of these, luckily. Nice. Oh, you saved. It's a really good product. So ocean bottle, they take plastic out of the ocean and they create bottles to use. So ocean bottle is my number one go-to. Brilliant. What's your favourite travel destination? I love Costa Rica. Just for the nature, the animals. They're very sustainable as well. So I don't feel so guilty going there. This is a long flight from Europe. But, yeah, I love Costa Rica. And the people are great. And your favourite? Now, I agree. I haven't been there, but of course, all of us have heard lots of it, you know. And your favourite hotel? Or a hostel? Well, hostels are some really good fun ones. But hotel, well, I mean, I think everyone loves Anantara, don't they? Are we allowed to say that? Of course, I'm always biased. As you know, I'm always biased towards Anantara. I think everyone loves Anantara. I don't think that would be, I don't think I'd ever say no to a stay there. To the brand. Oh, beautiful. Lovely. And what gives you hope right now in the travel and hospitality industry? Well, right now, we've got some serious flight cancellations and travel issues and global issues. But my hope is that I think travel brings people together. Travel is about understanding other cultures, about understanding other places, where other people live. So the more people travel, the greater understanding we have of people in the world who are not like us. So I think it's so important just to keep travelling, to keep understanding, to keep meeting other people, new cultures, learn new things, educate yourself. And then I think we'll have better global understanding, hopefully. Yeah. Yeah, no, it's difficult times. And I didn't mention that in the episode because, like I said, yeah, we're trying to be resilient and just carry on. But it is quite surreal what's happening at the minute. And it's kind of, I'm sure there'll be aftermath of this coming soon. And in the next few podcasts, we will be talking more of the aftermath. But hope, like you said, is one word. I'm sticking with that. Yes. So, Zoe, thank you so much for participating in our rapid fire round. We do look forward. So I think for listeners listening in on the call, just want to say Zoe is available. I'm going to put the LinkedIn link for Zoe and also include an email. If you're struggling to get started on your brand story, then Zoe is the person for you to get started on sustainability story for your brand. Anything else, Zoe? No, just thank you for having me. And it's great to speak with you. I love your enthusiasm for sustainability. Oh, likewise. I think we share the same passion when it comes to it. Like I said, I met you on a panel and I really thought we could just go on talking about it. So I'm really glad we could do this despite the times that we are in now. And really looking forward to what's ahead.