Episode Zero Audacity4

Do you know who the actress Melanie Linsky is? I love her. Have you watched Yellow Jackets? No, but it's on my list of shows to watch, why? She's in it, and I have started watching it recently, and she kind of looks like you, or you kind of look like her. Oh my gosh, that's so sweet. I love her. Yeah, I know. I love her too. She's incredible. She was in, she's in a zombie show that I love. She plays a total, she's a villain. Oh yeah, she's in The Last of Us. Yeah, The Last of Us. Yeah. But she's also in another movie with, oh my gosh, this is going to be so cute, the one who plays Frodo. Elijah Wood? Yeah, she's in a movie with him. And she's, I love her. She's Australian. Yeah, I was just going to say that. Or New Zealand. She's Australian, and she was in Beautiful Creatures with Kate Winslet. Yes, with Kate Winslet, yes. And she was also on that TV show with Charlie Sheen and Ducky from... Oh, Two and a Half Men. Yes. Yeah, I'm not a fan of that show. I didn't really watch it either, but Ducky was in it, which... Is he the one who says, is he the one who says who in Pretty in Pink, he's like Blaine? Blaine? That's his name? What is he, an appliance or something like that? Yes, but so here's what I hate about that movie, is that first of all, she makes this super ugly dress. So Annie Potts is the... Her friend. ...woman, her friend, who, God bless Annie Potts, I love her. But she gives her this beautiful dress from the 60s that is this classic pink, gorgeous vintage dress. And she cuts it up and turns it into this monstrosity that looks like it should be in a... I know, I remember. Some kind of 80s video, rock video with synthesizers and the big shoulder pads and it's awful. But not only does she show up wearing the ugliest dress I've ever seen, but no girl in her right mind would choose Blaine over Ducky. Oh my God, I would choose Blaine over... I would. I would have been, oh, in a thousand million years, plus 20. Okay. I would totally... Andrew McCarthy is... Oh, Andrew McCarthy is adorable. Love him. He's a sensitive... Okay. But... He is a rich guy who wears white pants and it's awful. But he's totally sensitive and doesn't see class. In that movie. But he's also best friends with a total D-bag. I know who makes... Who has the best memes now. Like pictures of James Fader smoking and like being like... I... B-G-A-F. I have not. I don't know why I miss these memes. I'll send you one. I'll send you one. Okay, we should get started. We should get started. So, you know, by the way, we're recording, so I don't know. Okay. Just so you know, there's a reflection on your face. Oh. I don't know if you can see that. I'm not even looking. I'm looking at the transcript. But your lights or your glasses look like they have lights on them. Better. Yeah. Well, I can see I have... Okay, I've blown up the font so much that I don't need them. Okay, so this is Stay Out of Washington. My name is Lisa. This is... She's Tracy. Hi. That's all you're going to say? What do you want me to say? How are you doing today? Tell me about your day. I think it's good. I had a couple of soccer games. Both my kids had soccer games, so we did a little of that. We've got a lot of sports tomorrow. More soccer, some flag football, cross-country meet. It's, you know, my weekends are basically driving around Seattle from one sporting event to another and carting my kids around to them all. Does Alex help you? Oh, definitely. He's actually coaching one of the kids' soccer teams this year, so... Great. Yeah. I don't miss those days of carting around the soccer circuit. It's intense. Yeah, it's a lot. It's a lot. It's definitely a lot. What about you? How's your day been? Okay, so I'm writing a bunch of letters for my colleagues, sort of. They're all busy applying for cool grants and stuff, and so I spent most of the day writing. And then also... And then, like, letters of support? Yeah, letters of support. Yeah, really cool stuff. And nothing much. We got a little bit of sun today, so, you know, of course, I tried to get outside when the sun would come out because it's probably going to go away for another 20, I don't know, 20 days every now and then or something like that. Yeah, I feel like fall's gotten a late start this year, though. Yeah. I mean, it's October. It rained a lot yesterday. It did. And it rained, I don't know, a little bit last week, but it's been pretty warm and sunny. So, I mean, I wore a sweater to the game, the soccer game this morning, the first one, and ended up immediately taking it off and trying to... You have to dress in layers. You have to dress in layers. Oh, no, I do dress in layers, but it was me thinking that it was going to be cold, and it was not. Did you know that there was a day last week, Simon told me this, there was a day last week where we got more rain in one day than we do in, like, three weeks in the month of September. Like, September is usually one of the driest months, but we had one of the... A day. I don't know if you... We didn't mean where I live. I don't know if it happened where you lived, but you're only 90 minutes south, but the weather is so different where you are. Yeah, yeah. Well, yesterday, or Friday, driving home from school, it was perfectly dry, and then all of a sudden, halfway home, it started like a monsoon. And just, I mean, trying to get, once we finally got home, trying to get from the car into the house, we got drenched. It was that crazy, and it didn't let up for a while. So, yeah. Well, we just have to brace ourselves because we are about to enter in the season of perpetual gray and rain with just darkness. It's going to be hard, and we can document the slow descent into utter depression. Yeah, let's not go there. Okay, so... Let's be clear. It's not because of the cloud coverage. It's because the days here in the winter are so damn short. That's right. It's dark by four o'clock. You wake up when it's dark. You go to work. You sit inside all day, and when you get out of work to drive home, it's dark again. So, unless you make it a point to leave your desk or whatever you're doing and go outside at noon, then it just feels like it's dark all the time. It's true because it is. So, that's a good segue into, I thought that before we really get into Washington State and why we're doing this podcast, and by the way, in case people don't know, this is a truth-telling podcast. I think we should just ask. Anyways, Tracy, do you want to talk about how we met and a little bit about our dirty secret stuff? Yeah, okay. So, Lisa and I met in graduate school here in Seattle. Neither one of us, full disclosure, are Washington natives. We both came here for school. We both went to the U. Go Huskies. Woo-hoo. And actually, I should just say that when we say the U, we mean the University of Washington. We sometimes call it UW. UW. Yeah, UW, University of Washington, or just the U. So, we came here from out of state, but we stayed here because we met our husbands here. We had kids here. We sort of established ourselves and built our lives here, and it's become our adopted state, and we have built some pretty deep roots and really kind of fallen in love with the area. And yeah, we've been here for a very long time. We've been friends for, gosh, since 1998, I think. 98, 99. But it was only kind of recently that we realized that we both kind of have this fascination with true crime. Which, for as long as we've known each other, could not have figured that out, really, until, I think it was, we were comparing podcasts that we were listening to, and I was. Yeah, during, around COVID, I think, right? Or maybe a little bit. Yeah, I think it was during the pandemic. I think it was during the pandemic, and because I started listening to MFM in 2018, and was really heavily into them, listened to them a lot, but didn't really admit it to a lot of people. And you, that was, so you had mentioned that you were listening to that podcast on the left, and MFM talks about them. And so I think that that was, I was like, oh, I'm listening to My Favorite Murder. And I think from there, we kind of figured out, we had crime junkies in common. And yeah, it's just weird that we've known each other for so long, and been friends forever, and not known this about each other. Yeah, so like, as a side note, like, I remember when we first started, I don't know, coming clean with our mutual obsession with true crime. We realized, I think, like, that as far back as the, at least, you know, the naughties, but maybe even the 90s when we first met. Although I don't know, I wasn't watching a lot of TV when we first met. Well, no, because we lived, we lived in that apartment. Well, it wasn't an apartment, it was actually a house. Right. And we had a TV, we were too broke to pay for cable. We had no cable. We had no cable. We had- We didn't watch TV, we were so much better back then. Yeah, we didn't really watch TV, but we didn't really get any channels. I bet if we had cable, we would have probably indulged a little bit more, but. Right, no, but like, you, I remember telling you that I would watch episodes of Forensic Files in between. I was working on my dissertation on Octavia Butler and other wonderful writers, and I would watch episodes of Forensic Files when I felt like I had done enough writing for the day, and it was like this little treat. And you were watching 20, 20, and 48 hours. Yeah, so like every once in a while, you know, if there's nothing going on on a Friday night, and I'm nerdy enough to, you know, be stuck home alone on a Friday night once in a while, but I would kind of treat myself to 20, 20, or 48 hours, or one of those shows. And I would feel so guilty about watching it, because I'd be like, this is so lowbrow. I really need to be reading some science journal article. I need to be studying for my generals. I need to be, you know, bettering myself scientifically, somehow, biologically, or whatever. And I would be just engrossed in, you know, listening to something horrible that happened to somebody somewhere in Ohio or whatever. So yeah, it was a dirty little secret of mine. Both of ours. I mean, we were so close, but we didn't know. And then I think, like, with the advent of, I don't want to say podcast, something else, but something begins to shift, like, over, I want to say, the last, like, something like five years. I mean, basically, everybody's always been into true crime. There's been, I mean, obviously, these shows were around when we were secretly watching them, but then it seems like over the last five, ten years, there's been this just explosion of true crime interest, or maybe not explosion of interest, but, like, suddenly it's okay to talk about it. You know what I mean? Like, thinking of all of the podcasts and how they're so successful, or, like, I don't know, I remember a few, I don't know if it was last year or earlier this year, there was that SNL skit where they're, you know, mocking, but also sort of embracing women being into true crime. It's like, yeah, sitting at home on a Friday night with their wine glass and popcorn. Such a good show. But I also, I think, I don't know, it just seemed like, I think Karen and Georgia on MSN talk about that a lot, like, that that was their kind of dirty little secret, and they would kind of joke about, like, yeah, you know, Georgia's saying, I would bring up something totally grotesque at a party and lose people, but Karen stayed and talked to me or whatever. And they kind of, they really sort of generated a community of a lot of women who, and it's not only women that listen to them, but a lot of women who found a place there, like, yeah, I like this too, and maybe there isn't something wrong with me. Maybe I'm normal, and it's just something that I never felt like I could talk about. So, yeah, 100%. I feel like that's, I'm thinking that there are all of these, if you go to, I know this is lame, I'm, I read the New York Times obsessively. I should, I should broaden my horizons. But in the last, like, five years or fewer, there have been a bunch of articles about this, about why is, what's going on with this obsession with true crime. And one of the things I've noticed is there's a pattern in all of the articles, which is basically that women are the most voracious consumers of it. Yes. And I think part of it is that, like what you were just saying about MFM and feeling somehow like there was something empowering about that. Not just because it made you feel like you weren't alone in your obsession, but you were hearing other women, I don't want to use the word normalized because that's so thrown around, but just sort of validating that obsession and then also almost finding like something empowering about it. And one of the articles in the New York Times is about that, about like how there might, the reason women might be really into true crime is because they, clearly the only person they can identify with is the victim because the overwhelmingly vast majority of victims of true crime are women and the perpetrators are men. And so there's this sense in which they feel like they can imagine themselves in that position, but then also figure out ways to survive that position or that experience. So there's that. And just like the human nature of wanting to see, we all want to know what's going on, like under the hood, or just we want to get to the truth of this mystery. Like it's hard not to want to know what actually happened. How did that happen? What made that person do that? What it must have felt like. And I think, you know, just sort of building on what you're saying is that there's, it's empowering I think in part because as women who are often the victims we can identify, we feel like a lot of victims out there, when I hear her story, I think, oh yeah, I could have done the same thing and been in the same situation. And so there's, you identify with that person. So I do think that that's a lot of the reason why so many women are in future crime and become sort of fascinated by it. And then, of course, the aspect of, yeah, I can't turn away from a train wreck. You know, like, I mean. True. Guilty. Yeah. There's just that sort of everybody, you know, you're driving on the freeway and there's an accident and everybody's looking out the window on, you know, the accident's on the other side of the freeway, but the traffic on your side of the freeway is still backed up and there's no accident on your side. It's just that everybody's slowing down to see what happened. Yes, exactly. There's that human nature. Yeah. Aspect of true crime as well. Yeah. And then I just feel like, and we talked about, you mentioned this, your whole thing with Lacey Peterson. Oh, yes. I don't mean your whole thing. I mean that you were, again, this was like in 2002. So we were both friends, but we didn't. I mean, I don't remember talking about Lacey Peterson. No, I didn't share this with you. It's like one of the biggest things. Yeah. Yeah. But when that happened, I remember being in the lab and, you know, I'd go into the computer room to analyze data and I would find a little corner where I could kind of turn the screen so that nobody else could see it. And yes, I would be analyzing my data, but I would also just sit there and kind of, you know, Google what the latest news was about that case and kind of just became a little bit obsessed with it. And part of that I know is like, you know, that whole missing pretty white woman syndrome. Like, yeah, she was this beautiful woman and she was a white pregnant woman. And, you know, at the time, around that same period of time, there was another woman who I think was Latina. I'm not sure who was pregnant, who had also gone missing. And she just didn't get any coverage, which I didn't know about that then. But later on, years later, hearing about this story and hearing about the whole missing white woman syndrome and the idea that this other woman was not, her story just wasn't told. It wasn't in the media. That's right. But I think one of the reasons why I was a little bit obsessed with that is, I don't know why, but for some reason, intimate partner murders, for some reason, have always fascinated me because it's someone that you totally trust and that you think would never do that to you. And they turn on you. Like, it's different from like some random serial killer that just kind of pops out of the shadows and attacks you. You know, you know to like have your guard up, but you don't think to have your guard up against your husband or the person that you've married. And that you've pledged your life to and that you're supposed to be having a child with, you know? I mean, the thing is, though, Trace, is that the vast majority of violence against women is perpetrated by people they know. So it's like, it's twisted to think about. But what's even more twisted is that's the most likely person who will hurt you. Yes. Yes. Yeah. It's crazy if you think about that. Which is crazy. It's absolutely crazy. So we should, we should, let's segue back to our podcast, though. So like, I feel like we have to talk about why we're doing this. Like, what is it? There's so many podcasts. What the World Needs Now is another podcast. Like, I Need a Hole in My Head. Like, there's just- Yeah, yeah. Which is not meant to be another true crime podcast. And we recognize that. And that was a 90s reference. So Sally, if you're listening, what was the, we'll get to that later. Sally, what was that reference? Because if you were wanting like 20 seconds, I just dropped one. So let me know. Okay. So Tracy, tell me why we're doing this. So we're doing this in part because we have both listened to a lot of true crime podcasts. My favorites are My Favorite Murder and Crime Junkie. Those are the two that I probably listen to the most. And at least try to stay up to date on what I'm behind on both of them. Because I've got a lot of stuff going on. Life, exactly. But in listening to them, we've always noticed this pattern of, yeah, a lot of weird shithouse to Washington State. And every once in a while, those women will comment, what is going on up in Washington? Stay out of that place. And it's just kind of funny. And Karen and Georgia have their whole, stay out of the woods. Don't go in the forest or whatever. Just stay out of the forest. There's a lot of forest up here. It's a great place to hide a body. So a lot of weird things happen here. And so we just, you know, we started kind of joking way back. And when we first realized that we both were kind of fascinated with true crime after knowing each other for 20 years and not admitting it, or never bringing it up, and we just kind of joked, we should do a true crime podcast and it's just Washington State. And so we've been talking about this for six years now. Okay, don't do that. I think it's been like maybe, it can't possibly have been six years. I feel like it's been six years. And then we dropped a teaser episode last summer. It's been a year since we dropped that. I think that we should re-drop that. Because that was beautiful. It was great. It was 15 seconds of us in a bar. Oh, not just any bar. In the murder bar. The murder bar. Which is what we call it. But just a little side note for our listeners, Sally. We recorded ourselves talking for 15 seconds in the Waterfront Tavern, which is allegedly a space where the following people got drinks. Kenneth Bianchi, one half of the Hillside Stranglers. Ted freaking Bundy. Bundy. Yes. OG. The OG. Oh gosh, we shouldn't call serial killers OG. Okay, anyway. Cut that out. All went to that bar. So, yeah. So let me segue into another reason we're doing this. We talked about how all of our podcasts are interested in, or no, have a weird sort of macabre interest and fear of Washington State. But also just, I think that, so I study literature. That's what I do for my job. I teach and write about American literature. And one of the things that is true about Washington is it's sort of off the map. A lot of classic American literature would refer to Washington State, if it ever even referred to Washington State, as this mysterious part of the country. So I feel like the mystique of Washington isn't just that there are an uncannily amount of true crime heavy hitters or OGs that are connected to our state, like Ted Bundy, Israel Keyes, Kenneth Bianchi, Gary Ridgway. These are all people from Washington or in Washington. Josh Powell. But also just because the state itself is kind of mysterious, it's very, very, it seems like it's kind of in the middle of nowhere. And like you said, it's one of the best places to bury a body. And it's just so gloomy. We have about eight months of gloom. Yeah. Every year. Yeah. So we're just going to kind of, the stuff we're going to talk about in this podcast is all connected to Washington State, the weirdness of it, the macabre of it. And we're just going to figure out what's at the bottom of all this. Every episode is going to feature something, some case, either it's a cold case or, you know, something else related to a true crime that has a connection to Washington State. I don't know. Do you have any other things to say about why we're doing this? Like related to what I just said? I feel like I covered it, but I don't know. No, I just, this is, this is our home now. This is where we are raising our families and our kids. And it's a fascinating place for a lot of reasons. Not just some of the awful things that have happened here, some of the awful people that have come out of here. But there's a lot of beauty here too. I mean, Sasquatch, you know, there's just, there's crazy stuff here, but it's, you know, Kurt Cobain. He's from here too. Like, all right. So we have, okay. So for Sally, in case you're listening, we have debated whether or not we want to do an episode on the Kurt Cobain question, because there are some people who truly think that there's no way he could have killed himself. I don't know, you know, and then, you know, of course, others who don't, who don't really think that. But we decided we're not really going to do a full episode on that. And we're just going to like now and then talk about little tidbits related to that case and to Kurt Cobain. I think one of the, the reason why this is, I think, maybe a fascinating subject for Lisa and I, in addition to the fact that we both loved Nirvana back in the day, when we first became friends, I think we'd only, we'd only known each other, I don't know how long it had been, but I do remember, it must have been a while because you and Simon were already dating, but we stayed up all night in the kitchen at our little tiny house on Ashworth, arguing about whether or not he killed himself or somebody had him killed. And I would agree. I mean, that was, that's a big issue. But the thing is, I just realized we could love Elliott Smith into this. Oh God, I know I love him. Right, but like he's so Northwest, right? I don't mean North Portland, but, but like I, okay, between Kurt Cobain and Elliott Smith, Elliott Smith's murder, I mean, sorry, Seth is more suspiciously close to murder to me than Kurt Cobain. So I have, why have there not been conspiracy theories around, or I mean, I don't know, I haven't read any conspiracy theories around Elliott Smith. Sally, Sally, Sally, if you're listening, if you have time, could you look this up? Because I do think that the official police report of Elliott Smith's murder was ruled like undecided. Like they can't, they couldn't, they couldn't rule out, they couldn't rule out suicide or homicide. Like they're both were in play. I did not know that. I might, I do remember hearing about his death and thinking, who stabs themselves in the stomach as a means of wanting to end it all. That just seems like a really brutal way to do it. It's not quick. I mean, it's, I know, it's not painless. It's not painless. And so thinking initially, okay, there's got to be more to the story, but then never hearing anything else about it. I know. I think that I'm, I mean, I'm not, I don't want to like, this is a podcast or whatever. And I'm like, look, putting it out in public. But I do, I do remember reading that somewhere online, which is probably the worst way to. So what's your research towards something online? I do have it. Okay. We will, by the way, Sally, we will not, we will, we will never not have our sources. Like everything I say about Kenneth Bianchi in the upcoming episode is going to be sourced. So this right now about Elliott Smith is me, like, basing my memory of Google. It's humpificating about what we think happened to one of our favorites. Yeah. Yeah. I'm excited. I'm excited. I'm too. Yeah. So the next episode is going to be on Kenneth Bianchi. It's going to take us to Bellingham, Washington, and the rancid piece of shit who created a bunch of trauma and brought a lot of violence to this beautiful town of Bellingham. Yeah. So thanks for listening, Sally, and we will see everybody or talk to everybody soon. Okay. Bye. Bye.