Vivi Liam 1

The couple, Liam and Vivi, share their experience preparing for childbirth. Vivi, originally from Greece, found out she was pregnant during the COVID pandemic and felt isolated in the Netherlands due to unfamiliarity with the Dutch system. They sought midwives and took hypnobirthing courses to empower themselves with knowledge. Initially considering a birthing center, they later embraced the idea of a home birth. Their birthing plan focused on being informed about various options and remaining flexible. They also emphasized the importance of support from a doula and the need for non-birthing partners to be included in the birthing process. Anyway, you guys can accept that. All right. Oh, okay. Well, let's go. I'll just as I said, I'll do a separate intro just so that we can have more time here. Yeah. Okay. So welcome, Liam and Vivi. Hi, Eva. Thank you for having us. Thank you guys for joining. This is highly unusual as we have both parents here joining us. What was the decision here? Well, I don't want her to have all the limelight, really. No, but I think, yeah, later as we will explain, Liam played a very vital role in one of the, yeah, birth stories, I would say. Not just, yeah, being part of the birthing team, but he was, yeah. I was a useful non-birthing partner. Exactly. But yeah, so it would be nice to have his perspective as well. And I think in general, having a non-birthing partner, like you said, share their perspective, how they can support the birthing person. And yeah. So before we start, how about we get a bit of background about you guys? Where are you from? Yes. So yeah, I'm Vivi. I'm from Greece. I have been living in the Netherlands since 2012. So quite some time now. And yeah, we met. Yes, you can share something about yourself. Yeah, I'm Liam. Hello. I'm vulnerable dad number two from the podcast. I also joined. I came to the Netherlands in 2012. Totally separate. We just, yeah. Yeah. And then we met, I think, end of 2016. New Zealand, actually. So yeah, we've been together for nine years now. Yes. Nine years. And parents for four and a half years. Yes. I'm from England. Oh, yeah. There's that. Apologies. I'm from there. So let's get into your birth story. How about you give us a little pregnancy background? How did it go? Well, first off, how did you find out you're pregnant? How did the pregnancy go? Yes. Thank you. So yeah, it was actually, I will share a bit of a funny story. So when I found out I was pregnant, we were, of course, very happy and excited. And so the pregnancy test, I'm like, OK, nice. But it was also, there was a lot of uncertainty at the time because it was during COVID time. So that was one thing that created a lot of stress, like regarding, I don't know, hospital care or appointments, et cetera. And also my lack of knowledge of the Dutch system, because coming from Greece, I had this very medicalized view of pregnancy and birth. And also, I didn't have anyone really close that has been recently pregnant or has given birth. So I felt quite alone and isolated, I would say. So yeah, in the beginning, I remember I saw the pregnancy test. So I didn't know what the next step was. So I remember calling the house guards and saying, OK, look, we have a positive pregnancy test. And I don't know, what should we do now? And they were like, very polite. They were like, OK, nice. Good for you. Congratulations. But why did you call that? Yeah, I had to explain that, look, I don't know how things work here. So they told me that you need to find a midwife and the care will be taken over by them. So then I also very innocently and very, I was very naive. I didn't know. I'm like, OK, can you recommend someone? Do you have someone that you work with? I had no idea, as you can tell, how things work. So and yeah, the response was very... Just like, well done, you had successful sex. No, no, no. But they were also like, yeah, you need to Google and find one yourself. It feels like a parasympathetic effect. Yeah, do your research. So yeah, it was something that actually, yeah, as I said, I was already feeling very alone and isolated due to Covid, being from another country and not knowing the system. And also this response. And yeah, I but I managed actually to use this as my motivation to learn more, to empower myself, because, yeah, hearing about home births and and this whole different approach to childbirth, it was very strange for me. It was not familiar at all. I think so. I think both of us as well. Yeah, also in the UK. Yeah, from the UK we're both medicalising. We have the same approach. And my initial thing was, all right, cool, we'll sort out the hospital stuff. Yeah. So yeah, what I tried to do during my pregnancy, which I was very lucky, very blessed to have a very smooth pregnancy and no complications. It was all going well. So, yeah, what I wanted to do was to get all as much knowledge and as much information as I could so that I can empower myself and make the decisions that are right for us. So, yeah, and then I think we found our midwives. I did some birth preparation, sorry, birth preparation courses and reading a lot. And then we also did a hypnobirthing course with Tony, which, yeah, people might know from previous episodes from Little Birth Goal. She, yeah, she has helped us a lot with giving us all the tools to find out more about birth and pregnancy. And then, yeah, actually, we felt we had a really good connection with her. So. Oh, OK. So let me talk about the connection. Yes. So Tony's English, I'm English straight away, get on like a house on fire. Secondly, well, I had to get over the hypnobirthing thing. The name hypnobirthing, because I'm like, that sounds like wishy-washy, hippie stuff. Like, I'm like, what are we doing? What are we doing? And I still stand by this. The branding of hypnobirthing, it needs to change, I think, because as a non-birthing male partner, I'm a dumb-dumb and I hear hypnobirthing and I'm like, this just doesn't sound right. It's just what? OK, fine. Yeah, you do what you want to do, love. I'll come along. I'll see what it is. It's just mindfulness. It's just mindfulness. It's mindfulness. It's a mindful pregnancy. It's setting up your surroundings. So extrinsically, you can then have a good surrounding. Intrinsically, you feel good. That's it. But hypnobirthing, I'm like, there's going to be a doctor with a watch and shit. OK, fine. If you really want to do this, love, we'll try it. Yeah. And then, of course, we did a package of multiple people. So it's going to be a group thing. And then everyone dropped out. So then it became a private kind of thing. I was like, I am set. This has saved me lots of money. So I'm very happy. Yeah. And then, yeah, we had an immediate connection with Tony. She was amazing. So, yeah, we decided to actually include her in our team. So with all that, with the packages and with the hypnobirthing and now with Tony, what was your birthing plan? Yeah. So that's a good question, because in the beginning, also hearing about the birthing plan, I'm like, I don't know what am I supposed to do? And obviously, as I said in the beginning, coming from Greece, home birth was a no-go. Yeah. If you told me, I would have laughed. But yeah, so we had a lot of support from Tony. She guided us through. Yeah, a lot. Like through all the options that we have regarding pain relief, regarding where we can actually decide to give birth. And also, of course, because birth is very unpredictable, you might want to do whatever you have in mind. But things obviously don't turn out the way you're thinking. So and that's the good part about the hypnobirthing course, actually, that it gives you the tools and the knowledge and the power, I would say, to make informed decisions no matter where birth leads you. And that was very, very important for me. So because that's what the birthing plan is, be aware about all the choices and the options that you have. So even if plan A, let's say, doesn't work, you have the option to do something else, plan B or plan C, and how you can approach those choices. So yeah, in the beginning, I think we put, I think the birthing centre as our first option, because it was something in between a home birth and the hospital birth. Because I'm also a person that doesn't really like these very hospital, how do you call it? Environments? Environments. Yes, exactly. And so I thought the birthing centre was a good compromise, let's say. And then, of course, during the course of the pregnancy and seeing how it evolves, you always have the option to change your mind. It's not like a rigid plan that you have to follow, obviously. So yeah. And yeah, even then, before the birth, I was very happy that we had our doula by our side to... She wasn't a doula to start off with. It was hitting her birthing course. And then it was awfully like, you don't have a doula. And I was like, I don't know what a doula is, but I'll look into that. And then it was like, all right, cool. One thing I want to say about doulas is that they are marketed towards the birthing partner, but really, they should also go towards the non-birthing partner, because they're amazing. They are absolutely bloody amazing. So yeah, all non-birthing partners, get yourself a doula. Yeah. I do have to say, I really liked how you actually said that the birthing plan was about being aware of everything, because a lot of people think the birthing plan is actually, this is what I want. It's not about, here's the knowledge and empowerment. So I'm really happy to hear that that's how you experienced it. Exactly. They say it's a plan, but yeah, it's just a plan for everything. Maybe we'll just try. Things don't always go as planned. I think it's just to make you think of, you know, things might not always work out the way we want or the way we wish. So think about that moment that if something goes wrong, let's say, or if something goes in a way that you haven't thought of before, how would you react? What would you like to happen next? So yeah, that helped a lot. And yeah, it opened my mind a little bit more. So I think, and that's when I also started thinking about a home birth as an option. And also, as my pregnancy progressed and I was very happy, very healthy, no complications, I was at the end thinking, you know what, why not? So at the end, actually, and we put like home birth as our first option. And yeah, I remember when it was, there was never any pressure or anything from my side because I'm, I was going with, I'm the non birthing partner. I go with what's going on. I do all the courses and we'll see what we do. And yeah, the jump from birthing centre to birth, birthing at home, I was like, okay, well done girl. I didn't even think like, that was, I knew it was an option, but I didn't know it was an option for someone like us, someone from our backgrounds, both different countries, but same hospitalised births. Yeah. Oh, that's the thing. And that's why I mentioned earlier that I really believe that knowledge is power and it has empowered me throughout my journey that having the information. And of course, there's so much out there. There's a lot of information that, yeah, can sometimes make you even feel a bit overwhelmed, but focusing on what's important for you and what makes you feel safe and comfortable. And that has helped me a lot. And it has helped me gain more and more confidence by the end of the pregnancy and feeling more trust in my body now that I knew also how childbirth actually works and what my body is capable of doing. So yeah, knowledge is power, be informed of your choices or your options. And yeah. So when we look at labour, tell us, how did it start? How did it feel? How did you know it began? Yes, that was also one of my worries, actually, that as a first-time mum, I wasn't sure, like, about the signs of labour. Like, how will I know if I'm in labour? Is this really it? And I guess it's one of the biggest fears of first-time mums, but of course, when it happens, you do know. So I think it was Thursday evening that my first contraction started. It was, in the beginning, very irregular, quite mild, manageable. So it wasn't anything alarming. So I didn't inform the midwives just yet. But we were in contact with Toni the whole time and we were keeping her informed. And then the next day, so on Friday, I still kept having contractions, but still very irregular throughout the day. And yeah, keeping in touch with Toni to give us some support or advice. And we didn't ask her to come over just yet because it was still very beginning of labour. And yeah, she just advised, you know, a lot of movement. And we also had some techniques that we learned during the course with the ribosome to help with managing back pain or, yeah. Yeah, that helps from my side, like, being able to help there. Yes, like in practical ways, not just being there, talking to the bag, you're doing great. But in the practical way that had an immediate effect on me, like, it was some relief. So that was great. Yeah. Also, as well, when you started labour, straight away, that was my cue to, you know, to make sure that the, because we had a birthing pool as well. So we had to make sure that I'd already blown up because we just got, we got it a few days before she went into labour. Oh, yes, right. So yeah, by the end, when we were, let's say, said that, okay, let's try and see if it works to have a home birth. We also rented a birthing pool. When did this happen? Like, how far were you? Yeah, I think it was, for sure, third trimester. It was towards the end. Also, the last month, we had to change houses. We had to move. Yeah, so there was a lot going on. That's the way. So the background for this is, yeah, so when, before, yeah, start again. I had just got a job. So before Vivian got pregnant, we kind of thought about, we were thinking about trying, we tried, I think, a year or two beforehand to actually have a kid when I had a job. And then we stopped trying because it didn't really work. And then when we stopped, no, I think it was a year before. And then when we stopped trying, that's when it happened. That's when we conceived, kind of thing. It's the body, I don't know. But yeah, I got accepted to my job. I got the confirmation that I got the job in November, October, November time. And then I was starting in January. So I got the confirmation, and then a week later, she's pregnant. I was just like, yeah, come on. But we were living in a rented place, lovely place, you know. But it was very small, but very nice. But then we were like, we need to move. We need to live in a bigger place. I started my job in January. They gave me a permanent contract in March. Vivi then did the amazing thing, going to Funda, finding a house, and within all of that time, we got a place for July. We moved in July. And this is July, July 20th, 20th. We're talking about 20th, 21st. Yeah, so my due date was July 25th. We just moved into a house. We didn't have much stuff around. It was a crazy kind of time. So yeah, I think around that time when we moved and we had an actual place, that's when we rented also the birthing pool. And yeah, hoping that we might actually use it and see how that goes. Because yeah, that was also one thing that I learned from the course, that water is helping with pain relief and yeah, just relaxing the body and helping with labor. Yeah. I also think we got the house because the last people liked us. Because also, they were a lovely couple. They'd lived in that house for 38 years. They'd had both their kids. Their kids had been born in this house, in the bedroom. And they were like, okay, I don't know if we told them we were going to have it at home. But yeah, there's lots of kids that happen in our bedroom. Okay. So you were on your due date then, more or less? Yeah, very close to my due date. So it was, I think, three days before when the contractions started. Yes, I didn't mention that. So yeah, it happened on a Thursday evening and I gave birth on early hours of Sunday. Yeah, so it was- Wow. 60 hours of labor. That was two and a half seasons of 24. So yeah. So yeah, after, I think, Friday, as I said, we were in contact with Tony and yeah, after that, yeah, it was going all right. It was just, I was getting tired at this point, of course. So it was, at that point, I was trying to balance movement to assist with the labor progressing, but also resting because it was already a lot for me. And yeah, then we said to Tony, yeah, stay home. It's fine. And then the next day we'll see how things are going. So then the next day I woke up and then the contractions started being a bit more frequent and closer to each other. So I think around every 10 minutes. So then we said to Tony, okay, I think it's a good time that you come to us now. And that was when I also informed the midwives and that, yeah, things are starting to move. And yeah, Tony has actually, she has been with us from around midday when she came over and helped us a lot. Yeah. Like I said, with practically with massaging me, helping me relax. We went for a walk around the block just to, yeah. And also at the same time helping Liam help me because that was also very important, like supporting Liam so he can then support me. Yeah. So I don't need to ask, what do I need to do? So what do I do? I've got Tony, she's just whispering in my ear. She's whispering in my ear what I could offer to do. So it's, oh my God, give it a little bit. And then I think when finally it was time to call the midwives, like, look, now things are moving. It was in the evening around 8.39. I don't know. So it was again, very, very long. I was very, very tired at that point already. And so they came over and we had a first check. Still, it was very early though. It was, I think I was like two, three kilometers early. It was like, okay. Still a lot to go. We were also lucky. So when we moved house, we moved from Oost to New West. So we had to find new midwives. Luckily we found them. We found some lovely place. We had lovely midwives in Oost. And lovely midwives in New West. And we also got lucky where our midwife, who's called Eva, she was training. She was training to be a midwife. Yeah, because they asked me, is it okay with you if we have a trainee without any of your consent? She was like about six months away from being fully trained. So she had, she had, we had two midwives. We had a team of midwives because she couldn't be there. And it was, it was so good. It was, but yeah, when they came over, so yeah, they said, okay, we still have time. So see how it goes. Let us know, obviously. So they left at that point. And I think later it was just getting a lot, very intense. So I think it was around 1130, close to midnight that we called them again. I think you did or Tony even, I don't remember. Because yeah, it was getting a lot for me. So they came over and the thing is, unfortunately, still at that point, yeah, things were not progressing as fast as I was hoping for. So I was still, I think around five centimeters dilated. And so they actually told me that, yeah, we can do nothing at this point and just wait, but you are already exhausted. And the other option that we have is we can, because also my water hadn't broken until that time. So they told me, we also have that option. We can induce labor by breaking the waters, but it's up to you and going against what I was saying earlier. So being informed and knowing about all the options and all the possibilities during childbirth helps a lot. So when I made that decision to say, yes, please do that, it was coming from a very informed and knowledgeable place, if I can say it like that. But yeah, I felt actually, yeah, very good with making that decision because it was, I didn't feel pushed or pressured or anything like that. It was just, look, these are the facts. It's up to you at this point. And yeah. And I think after that, things started progressing and it got more and more intense and we were finally getting close to the end. And I think that's when also you filled the pool at that point. Yeah. So the pool was filled because they said, don't do it too early because it will get cold. Yeah. Because of course the water will get cold and you never know how long it will take. And you were in there for a while. Yes. And even then, after they did that, it still took a while. I don't remember how long, if someone asked me now how long was the pushing phase, I really don't remember. But it felt like a long time. Like if I think, yeah, not I think, I know our son was born 5am in the morning. So imagine all these hours. It wasn't pushing all these hours, but it was, yeah, very intense contractions. And yeah. And if I can also mention something that I forgot to say earlier. So when Tony came over at home, what she also did was to create a very welcome and very relaxing space in our bedroom because that's where we decided to have the birth. So we had the pool there in our bedroom. Fairy lights. Yes. So she brought some lights. We dinged all the lights in the room. And I think we also put some light music in the background. So having everything really relaxed and it felt, yeah, really good. I mean, it felt like a safe space and really nice environment. And I think if we're talking about a timeline, so when you had your broke, or when we had the water broke, I think it was about 50 hours of labor. About 40 hours, 50 hours. Like she speaks of it like, no, she was going, it was, she hadn't slept. And it got to a point, there was empathy from the midwives, but they're also just saying, look, you are knackered. You haven't slept because you've been having contractions for, very deep contractions for the last 24 hours. Before that, you were having quite, or not very nice contractions. You hadn't really slept in the last 48 hours. How about we do this? And I think having the information beforehand and then turning us there was great. It was wonderful. Yes. And then, I mean, it was, yeah, we knew at some point that it was getting closer. I felt, of course, I think every woman that has given birth reaches that point of like, oh my God, I cannot do this anymore. It's too much. And that's when you know that it's actually, yeah, very, very close. And so it was good to have, yeah, totally reassuring that, you know, yes, you can do it. You are doing it. And yeah, Liam was also there to help. Sorry. As a non-birthing partner, the pokey out lower back is weird. So it's like, when you're getting closer, the back, just above where the tramp stamp would be, on the back, it pokes out. And you have to massage it. And it's crazy. The female body is a wonderful thing. But yeah. And yeah, so we were then, yeah, went to the, arrived at the pushing stage finally. And I remember when it was, yeah, we were very close to meeting our baby. It was because I was in the water, right? I mean, in the pool. And I remember the part that, I'm sorry if it's too graphic, that his head is already out. And I remember the midwives all being calm and everyone, and I knew from the courses also that we did that. It's okay. You know, it's a very normal transition from womb to the water for the baby. It's fine. But I think Liam was a bit in a panic. No, no, no. Okay. I had forgotten. I had forgotten that I was like, looking at, I was like, oh my God, my baby's head's out under the water. And my brain couldn't get the information that they're fine because they're pre and proliferating. But I just looked, there was, because the cramshaw was there as well. So the cramshaw, there'd been so much, so much labor, the cramshaw was there already. She'd been there a couple of hours. And I'm just watching all these professionals. I'm watching everyone. They keep very, very calm, like on an airplane. If you get turbulence, you look at the professionals. Are they calm? They're calm. Everyone's calm. Oh, yeah. So Liam, don't worry about it. She's fine. Things are, yeah, fine. And then eventually, yeah, our baby floated into the water. Yeah. The midwife caught him and she gave him to my arms. And yeah, it was an amazing feeling, obviously, meeting your baby for the first time. And yeah, we stayed a little bit in the water, did some skin to skin there. Of course, the midwife was checking everything was fine. Also, he was very calm and she didn't cry immediately. So that was also in the beginning, was like, is he okay? Why are you not crying? Why are you not crying? But he was just very chilled, very relaxed. And then we moved into our bed. And I think for me, that was the greatest thing after birth, like having this, like going to my bed in my own bedroom, I felt so relaxed. So, yeah, no worries at all at that point, even though the midwife needed to check me and the placenta needed to be born as well. And it was amazing. Yeah, it felt, yeah, great being there in my own space. And yeah, it was lovely. Yeah, it was exhausting. It was very, very long, but I never regretted it. Like, yeah, choosing to do a home birth and being able to do so, because of course, you never know how it will turn out. But yeah. Yeah, we had a team. We had two midwives, a doula. A cranzor, because yeah, that's what happens at home birth, the cranzor. Me with my massage from behind and stuff, that was my... What was it like for the first 24 hours then at home? Mental. Yeah, well... Bloody mental. It was, I think you also have the adrenaline in the beginning, because of course, I was exhausted. But it was, yeah, you have so much adrenaline from birth and everything. And you have this baby that you need to keep alive. But having this possibility of having the cranzor here in the Netherlands is amazing. And especially for us that come from, yeah, not from the Netherlands, that we are international families, and we don't have the family support around. So that was great. Yeah, it gave us a lot of, obviously, tips and advice on how to care for the baby and doing checks on me. So, yeah, it was very good to have this safety net, let's say, that, okay, birth is gone. We're dealing with postpartum now, with breastfeeding and everything. Your body is still recovering, obviously. So having the cranzor around is... How wonderful. Wonderful. And we're very lucky, like the woman was also making great lunches for us. But yeah, so I want to go back to something you said just before, when you say, you know, when the birth is coming. I think you said, when the labor's starting, and you're like, this feels so much. Because we've had a second child. We had a second child. We had a second child. And we're going to squeeze this one in, because, well, she said those words. She said, if this is the start of labor, I don't know if I can do this. And she was saying it out loud, because it wasn't the start of labor. It was, it was, she'd already been in labor. She, we were about two years on with our little baby. Yeah, we were, we were at home. We were on the day of our due date. So yeah, having the experience of the first one, and having also a very good second pregnancy, I was like, yeah, why not? Of course, I'm going to choose for home birth. And if it works, great. So yeah, so my first one was born on his due date at home. And for the second time, we also, since her, yeah, support has been extremely valuable the first time, we chose to have Dawn and Tony support us again. But this time, focusing more on sibling support, if needed, because the second time, to be honest, since I've been through, yeah, childbirth and pregnancy before, this was my biggest worry. What will happen if our toddler is not in daycare, and he's at home? Who will look after him? And what, yeah, so this was my biggest worry. So that's why, yeah, we said with Tony that if he's at home, and you need to look after him, yeah, please focus more on him. And in the end, she didn't need it because, yeah, he was in daycare. No, we put him in daycare. He wasn't in daycare. And we actually planned this. We went, okay, this Sunday, Sunday night, we emailed the daycare. And we said, is it alright if I come in? Because maybe contractions, it's going to be a while. We know it's going to be a while. So it's fine. But can you just take him in if that's possible? Yeah, so luckily, he went in on a Monday. And then actually, I had a planned appointment on my due date. So it was my due date with a second. In fact, I think there were some base quite only a second one also on her due date. And so we went to the midwife. And we said, yeah, look, contractions have started. So let's see where we're at. And she actually checked me that when I was three centimeters dilated. So in my mind, there's still a long way to go. Obviously, I knew, I knew. I mean, I heard that second kid. We walked to there as well. She walked. It was a 10 minute walk. So yeah, obviously, I've heard that second kids come usually earlier and doesn't take that long. But yeah, we didn't think it would go that fast. So we walked back home. And at that point, Liam was preparing the birth pool because we got a birth pool again. And couldn't find it couldn't find a nozzle. And at some point, I had my test machine, I was getting ready and everything. But at some point, it started getting so intense. Liam heard the shift in my voice and my yeah. And I told him, oh, my God, if it's already like this, I don't think I can do this. This is a lot. And at some point, yeah, it was so much we obviously, yeah, informed the midwife. And Tony was on her way as well. And at some point, I think I was on all fours, grabbing the bed, holding the bed. And I was like, oh, my God, this is a lot. Liam, can you actually check? So I looked and I saw the head. I saw I saw it was crowning. I went from you guys. Okay, darling. We're not breathing anymore. We're pushing. And she was like, oh, and I've never had such clarity or focus in my life. I had two things going through my head. And don't drop the baby. Don't drop the baby. Don't drop the baby. Don't drop the baby. And as long as that, as well as that, it was all babies look a bit dead when they're born. All babies look a bit dead when they're born. All babies. I had those two things going over in my head. And apparently, I psychologically and physically primed myself to be able to catch my daughter. I caught my daughter. I yeah, I caught my daughter. And it was a wonderful thing. It was a beautiful thing. And it was, yeah, unbelievable. Like when Liam told me, I can see the head. What do you mean? The midwife was on her way. Tony was on her way. So we were alone. I was at that point. Yeah, Liam was very supportive. Amazingly, because I was like, oh, my God. But it Yeah, it was so fast that I didn't even need to push or anything. My body was doing actually everything. And she just came out. The midwife was on the phone at that point because she couldn't find parking around and she was on the phone. And I could hear my baby crying. I could hear Vivi crying. But the biggest crying was me. I was just very, very, very happy. I didn't drop the baby. Oh, and I also I also well, you remember the Sony Walkman headphones, the cables would get tangled. I had that in real life. I had that in real life. Because I get caught the baby didn't drop the baby went to hand the baby up to Vivi. But then, then it was Tang good. So I then have to do some basketball moves to then not to then hopefully not drop my baby. And oh my god, it was it but we did it. And then also I did the man thing where I cut the nipple cord. And I was like, Oh, I've delivered this. So it's fine. I cut the wrong side. So blood everywhere. I failed at the easy thing that men can get to the easy thing. So yeah. That was wonderful. Hold on a second, guys. Hold on. It's gonna end. So I'm gonna have to reorder it. Okay, hold on a second.