lantokmarch

The discussion revolves around the experiences and challenges faced by women. The participants discuss how the definition of a woman can vary across cultures and societies. They talk about the challenges women face and the empowerment that comes from overcoming them. They also touch on societal expectations and stereotypes related to gender. The conversation concludes with a discussion on body image and how perceptions of womanhood can change over time. Hi everyone, welcome to Land Talk. My name's Amanda. And I'm Id. I'm Ari. And I'm Christina. And today's theme is going to be what it's like to be a woman. So, yeah, I mean, what do you guys feel? I think it's okay. I'm kidding. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not kidding. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like there are pros and cons. Yeah. It's a big, big question. It's a really big question. A couple billion people in the world cover in quite a few sentences, right? Yeah, but it is also like a complicated subject. Because, for example, what we expect, what we imagine when we think of a woman is not the same that someone from another culture or country would imagine. So we can say that, like, what is a woman is different depending on where you are or what you believe. Well, there's always going to be challenges. And I think that's one of the things when you hear, like, you know, what it's like to be a woman. It's like, okay, one of the things that people first think of is the challenges that you have to face. And I think, to be honest, there are a lot. But I think it also, since there are so many challenges, I think the tradeoff is when you are able to, succeeding in things that people doubted you for, like, you know, having things set against you. It empowers you. It makes you. We can do it. We can do it. Sorry, guys. We have someone joining us right now. Hi, Paul. Hello, everybody. So Paul just sat down with us. So today's theme is what it's like to be a woman. And we were just discussing that usually when you hear about what it's like to be a woman, there's definitely challenges that are brought up and how when you kind of face those challenges, it kind of empowers you because you feel stronger because you were set against odds and you beat them. And then Ari was saying it's not the same for every culture. Like, you know, like, they have different things of what women should be doing or what women typically do. And it's different. So that's what we just discussed. All right. All right. So what's considered a strength and what's considered a weakness can change. It can change for sure. Can I ask? I'm very curious because I was like when the question was posed to me, I had like a really visceral bodily reaction to it. And I'm curious, like, when you hear this question, what happens in your body? Like, what do you like breathe a sigh of relief thinking about this? Did you like feel your shoulders tense up? Like, what happened to you when you heard that question? Tendons. It's loaded. Yeah. It felt like a like a spring just got wound up. Interesting. The specific question posed at the beginning of this. Yeah. What is it like to be a woman? Honestly, it sounds like it's time for me to listen to some things because I I'm an outsider voice and I don't really I mean, I know you all deal with a lot of challenges that I don't get to see all the time. And it does. When I think of things like that, I think about the time when I started working in the library system and I thought I had an amazing boss. He was so cool and so nice to me. But all the ladies were complaining and they weren't happy and there were grumblings. And then I found out that the way I was treated was completely different from the way my my lady coworkers were being treated. And I had no idea. It was very eye opening. And that was honestly one of the first times I thought about, oh, it is different for us. Yeah. So you would you say like when you heard it, was there like a quieting, quieting, quieting? Or was there kind of like a like a suck in your breath and let me go quiet for a minute? Well, I definitely went quiet for a minute evaluating the different behaviors and privileges that I was getting. And if it was things where I saw that I definitely was getting something that they weren't getting, I started pulling back on those. And I definitely it changed my view on that particular manager. But as far as the question, again, I say it's a test question because there's a lot behind it and there's not a simple resolution. I agree. I think it's like having somebody throw one of those giant bit of like a nice, lovely little softball. Somebody's just like throwing a giant bouncy ball at you, hurling it at your head. Like, oh, man, I don't know. There's a lot coming at me. I don't know. I always get slightly tense because I have like that question comes up every so often, especially if you go to a biology class in high school or anything. And I have had like people have gave me different answers. And when I was a kid, I used to hate it. Because my family and my culture in general, they were very different between what is a man and what is a woman and what was a woman supposed to do. And so I like all my childhood, I was around like you cannot do that. You're a girl. You cannot do that. You're supposed to be a woman. You're supposed to be a lady. And it was a point when I hate it. And then you grow up and realize that all the things that you were not supposed to do, there is nothing physically stopping you from doing it. There was nobody physically stopping me from playing like a little rough sometimes if I was in the park or something like that. There was nobody physically stopping me or making me wear makeup because I was a girl. So I was like, oh, okay, so it has nothing to do with being a woman. It's just an expectation that was there. But that's a lot of great hustling opportunities. Hustle all the guys who think you can't hustle and take bets, right? Yeah. Yeah. So you ask a lot of girls, they're like, I'll beat you. Yeah. That's what my best friend's like. She's like, I would play soccer with a woman. She's like, I would beat them all. And I'm like, yeah, I know, you would. That's your personality. But, you know, you have the girls who are kind of like tomboyish and they're like, I can do anything that you can do, but I can do it better. And they won't be more aggressive because they know that they have to, that there's a lot of things stacked against them at that point. So when I first heard it, I was just like, okay, like, think about it. If someone comes up to you with a delectable moment, I'd be like, just like I was in the beginning. I'm sorry. I know there are some challenges against them. I know there are some things that I can get away with that, let's say a guy couldn't get away with. Like, I'm small and petite. So if I can't reach something or if I do that, it's kind of like, oh, okay, it's just cute. Let me get that for you. I feel like if a guy couldn't reach something or something that guys would act mean to him, like, oh, you couldn't get that. Or like, you know, there's always some kind of other energy when it's a guy against a girl. Like, when you're talking about those kinds of things, like, guys tend to be more cruel with guys. But with girls, it's not like that. It's like I already said, like, okay, well, let me help out with this because you obviously need the help. But that's why I never get like, they're people too. They need help. They're not in charge of their size. Okay. By the way, what is the short thing? Like, I have seen people that is like, at least like three to four or five inches, like, bigger than me and be around like, no, because I'm short. And I'm like, I believe it's only six feet. I believe I'm technically short, although I feel average. Social media posts are to be believed. That is too tall. Little personhood. If you're over five foot three, you're automatically tall to me. So yeah, I'm like, Jack is the guy in most of my world. I remember someone who I used to work with, he was going through, he was a teen at the time. And he was smaller than everybody else. And he used to get picked on in school for his height. And so he started taking the growth hormones so that way he could be taller. And I'm just like, I've never had to deal with it. I've always been short. But I guess when it's a girl, it's different than when it's a guy. When it's a girl, it's contrary, because I have friends that are like, tall, like, taller than average, we will say they are not thickly tall, they are not over six feet or anything. They are like taller than average. And they say that like, men don't want to date a woman that is their same height. I speak with Jeannie all the time about this. And she is, her height is one of her concerns. She's like, oh, I don't know, I'm too tall for them, I guess. And I'm like, oh, that's so unusual. Because, I mean, in my world, I don't, our heights don't really come into play. It's, you know, it doesn't matter. But yeah, it's, apparently, it's a barrier. Which is crazy for me, because I think Jeannie is beautiful, and I think her height is also perfect. Yeah, it's her body. That's the ideal? Yeah. Right. Exactly. I'm, I'm curious, because my experience is maybe a little bit different. And I'm curious to know, has your experience or your perceptions of womanhood changed over your lifetime? Because it's definitely done so for me. I am not sure. I mean, as I already told you, like, when I was a kid, what was supposed to be a woman was very different. And when I, once I, like, grew out of that, it was different for me. But at the same time, I was left with no concept. I was like, okay, if being, you know, girlish is not what makes a woman, if being, like, biologically XX is also not what makes a woman, what exactly makes a woman? And I have told, like, I have friends, when I talk with them about this, and they're like, well, you are a woman. And I'm like, yeah, by default. Like, I was born this way, and I cannot feel any difference, so I assume. Somebody told you, and you believed them. And I believe them, but there's no confidence. There was no one, no part of me that went around, like, yeah, you are a woman. And I was like, oh, okay. So if you wanted to investigate that, how would you know to do this? Where would you even start? I don't know. I have no idea. That's a good question. So did you start questioning what is, like, what is a woman, and if you are? How would you know if you were a woman, if you woke up and the world said, we're all androgynous, how do you decide? You get to pick today. So then what roles would you, like? Honestly, I don't know. And I think you can put that back on, you know. Yeah. How do you know you are not a man? Yeah. Like, when I was, my dad wanted a boy, and so he pretty much treated me like a boy when I was growing up. Like, I had race car sets, I had all, you know, wiffle ball, all the kind of stuff that little boys would play with. I had, you know, stuff that girls would play with, too. But, you know, like, I would go fishing with him and do, you know, ride ATCs and stuff like that. Sounds like fun stuff. I know. Sounds like a great weekend to me. So, you know, I didn't really have a very rigid idea of what a female, being a female was. You know, in some cultures, like, you know, the woman stays home, takes care of this. In my house, my mom, my mom worked full time, too. So it was kind of a little bit of a free for all. Even with that liberty, did you ever find yourself coming up against, oh, you need to wear a dress to that, or, no, you can't do that. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I remember, oh, my God. God, I can tell you exactly what this green and white polyester dress looked like that I would not, I would not put on. Today, I would love that dress. But I remember just, like, my dad telling me, you have to wear this dress for the first day of school. And I was like, I don't want to wear that dress. And he actually, he hit me with a belt eventually to make me put the dress on. And my thing was, well, it's itchy. Yeah. Yeah, back in the day. The first trial. Right, right. So, yeah, and he'll still, like, he'll tell me these, you know, if I see him now, every time I see him, he'll be like, well, you used to have such pretty long hair, Christina. And I'm like, well, cool. If you want to come, you know, blow dry and iron my hair every morning, then we can do that. I would love to, you know, I would love to have the choice to just be short or long on a day-to-day basis. I would love that choice. You can pay that salon bill. Yeah. I don't mind. Yeah, so he had, they had, they did have weird quirks where, you know, they were stuck in that way of things. But I think it's kind of like, it gets passed down in the family. It's like, you learn, like, these are the traditional roles that this person's supposed to play. And then, like Ari said, by default, whatever you're born as, like, you know, those are the roles you have to assume. Because I know when I was younger, my grandmother was the first person to show me how to iron. And then she's like, you have to learn. She's like, so when you have a husband, then you can do the ironing. I'm just thinking, what's wrong with him? Why did my grandmother? She grew up in, you know, we're Spanish in a Cuban household, and that's what was passed down. And even as we got older, she was like, oh, go put on some makeup. Like, you know, look nice, look presentable. But that's just how it was. There was a certain gender role that you had to fulfill as a woman when you said that some, you were out riding, you know, in the car things. And when we were younger, we weren't allowed to go fishing with my dad whenever we would go to the Keys with him. There would be a kid who was maybe, like, four years old. He was a boy, and he would go with his brothers. And me and my sisters, who were already, like, in high school, we couldn't go because the water was too rough for us, and my dad didn't want us going out there. And so we, every single weekend, we would have to sit inside the house. And I noticed it was all the women and the children who were at the house, and all the boys, like, when the little kids wanted to go, they were able to go, but we weren't. So it was like... I'm pretty sure there's a pretty equal split between women and male lifeguards out there. Yeah, there is. But the thing is, he was like, you guys are going to get sick as a dog, and you guys aren't used to it. I'm like, but how are we supposed to get used to it if we never go out? No way. We couldn't go out to the ocean. We can go out into the bay, and we would go for a ride in the boat on the bay, but never out fishing. So he's like, do you guys want to go fishing? I'm like, no, I don't want to go with you. You've had your chance. It's a little bitter now, but it's fine. But there were definitely different gender roles, and how you're treated as one versus the other, and even people in your family, like, it sucks to say, but they do it. I'm kind of like, what it means to be a woman. I don't really pay attention to what it means to be a woman. Like, when you're talking about do you see any differences when you're younger to now, I see more differences of being an adult. It doesn't matter if you're a woman or a man. Being an adult versus being a child, you see more responsibilities you have to take on. I don't see anything with gender for those kind of roles now. But I don't really pay attention to whether it's something for a guy or girl. I see it as you're an adult, you have this now, you have that. It's different from when you were a kid. I wonder if part of that is because in the library environment, it tends to be more women oriented, because all my bosses have always been women in the library. That is true. The field of librarianship has traditionally always had more women in it. And maybe because of that, there's less of the glass ceiling that you would see in, like, some private sector places and whatnot. I don't know. That's a guess. That could be. It's possible, yeah. I'm sure there are some careers that are generally more women oriented, like teaching. Nursing. And when they get those male teachers or nurses, they're like, we need them. Like, they're guaranteed a spot, because they have to be able to help with the boys who are there, whereas women can't, because you always run into that issue of working with the opposite sex. Like, it's always an issue. So I've always noticed that, too. Like, I know coming from a background working with children in aftercare and things like that, if there was a guy going for it, a lot of the directors would want the guy, because they don't have any male supervisors. Yeah, they're all female. It's kind of the opposite of the diversity issue. Mm-hmm. You need the diversity hired. So they become the unicorns. And they're guaranteed a spot, because they're like, we need that. We need the person. Like, if a boy had to run into the restroom, a woman would have to wait outside the restroom, whereas a guy would be able to go in there and make sure nothing happened to the kids while they're in there. So there's always, like, a difference. So sometimes guys have it good, and there are some things, like you said, where it's more woman-oriented. But I noticed, actually, when I came here, I was like, it's a lot of women. Social work was like that. Yeah. Oh, yeah. But less so than here. There's definitely a pretty equal amount of guy social workers that I worked with, for sure. But it was the same thing with any kind of field where there tends to be predominantly women. They would tend to be in the high position. What about folks who aren't in the economy of men and women? What does that mean to be not either of those things? I was interested in that. How do you find out that? Whether you're... Like, how do you realize one day you look yourself in the mirror, and you're like, I am not this? Then you get whatever you want. It might be something wrong, but how do you feel it? As I told you, I don't know if I feel like a woman. I'm by default accepted. How do you feel if you know you are not? If you know you don't fit in any of these squares? I don't know, but there's no... I guess at that point, there's nothing counting against you. I can't tell you what society says it has to be, because if we didn't have an over-and-over thing saying, oh, well, you're all going to be in this group, and you're all going to be in this group, and like you said, you just... You become the invisible third. I don't necessarily know that I would have chosen the same. I would have had a discussion, I think, but yeah. As somebody who is non-binary, I might be able to give my experience, but it is fraught, so whatever my experience is, it's not necessarily everybody's experience. Yeah, but you're a singular person. You're telling your experience. Yeah, exactly, and it's the same thing as what womanhood means to one thing or manhood means to another person. It's not going to be the same answer from person to person, and some of it is experiential, but one of the things I have a lot of conversations with friends who I have who are trans or intersex or were socialized one way growing up and then either transitioned or they're experiencing selflessness in a totally different way is wrestling with being invisible in a society that only has two categories. You don't get the third option in a lot of spaces except maybe a couple of boxes and certain paperwork, but there's not a lot of room built into our society for you got to pick one or the other, which is really sad because it was not always like that before colonialism. In almost every culture you look at, there was always a third option until colonialism came along, and when I learned that, that was part of the bigger conversation of like, oh, there is another option. You don't have to put yourself in this perfect little box of whatever it means to be a woman or a man. You don't have to adhere to that, especially if it's something that you grow out of, which it sounds like sometimes you do. It's like your family teaches you and socializes you in one way. You sometimes just grow out of whatever that socialization was. You say, it's a little too late to do the fishing thing, but I will do this with you. Well, what I wanted to say before, I was just saying, I feel like if you don't, I guess you don't have to pick rules to go traditionally with that in order to go with the other one. You're open to whatever you want. If you want to say, okay, I am neither, but I like doing both, I'm going to do whatever I want. Forget traditional rules. I feel like if you don't put a label on it, you're free to do whatever you want. The world's open to you, whereas if people do say, okay, well, yeah, I'm a woman, then you put that label on it, and then you're kind of limiting it to yourself, what you can do. Well, not what can you do, but like, what your roles are traditionally in society. Tied to. Yeah. Or what people will put on you. That's the thing. Other people and what they impose. The idea of. In Florida. Whatever they have. Whatever baggage they bring with them to the conversation, which you can't control. It's kind of weird, because they never understand why was that so important, especially in some settings. I have seen many people that they look androgynous, but you cannot figure out in what sex were they born to. And I normally don't care, but my mom does care. And my mom was around, like, go ask them. And I'm like, I'm not going to go ask nobody nothing. Why do you. And I was around, like, I looked at my mom, like, why do you want to know? Well, like, you know, I'm curious. And I'm like, what is that going to do for your life? Wait, what is it? Why do you need to know? I looked at her and I was like, yeah, okay, whatever. Like, I don't need to know. I don't really care. Why do you care? Why would you, why would you need to know this person's gender? One of the things I learned in my psychology class, one of the first things your brain is wired to do in that very first one to three seconds where you see and are introduced to a person is the very first thing to determine what their sex or gender is. It is the very first thing your brain is wired to find out. And they believe, at least in the sense of an evolutionary function, it's to figure out what power you have over that person. Oh, wow. So it might be a matter of entitlement. It might be a matter of curiosity. It might be camouflaged as both. I always think maybe, like, relations as well. It could be that too. How do I relate? Am I going to engage with you in a way where maybe you feel a sense of camaraderie or safety or further otherness? You like the color pink and purple or this, I like it too. You can start a conversation with, or do you like the color green? I could see that as something that you can do, but I didn't think of that a power thing. Well, that's what Mr. Freud says now. Freud is a fraught person, so don't go by my judgment on that. I wonder if it has to do with who you perceive as a threat. Well, it's funny you mention that, because for me, the first thing I see as a threat is the guy with the beard, which looks like me. But those were always the aggressors in my life were these bigger guys with beards. And if it was a guy like that, then I knew he was probably going to cause problems. And so, yeah, that's where my head goes. And if it's a lady, it's like, I'm sure it's going to be fine. I don't know. I don't know. Maybe I missed that chat with the lady with the beard right here. You may feel differently about it. I don't know. I was talking with my therapist about it the other day, and I was like, oh, I think there's a connection there. But in any case, yeah, I usually, my first reaction is, oh, you're going to be the scary one. It's the same part of your brain that this happens in that also gives you the hyper ability to sense where snakes are. The finding threat. I think it's tied into that. It's that same part of your brain that's going off, that's always hyper aware of things that move a little too jittery or things that strike. Maybe there is something to it. Maybe we're making it up. I don't know. But I think it's interesting to think about. It is. When you said, I find that really, really cool that one of the things that everybody can kind of get on the same playing field is that they come from and have built this idea of womanhood, manhood, from both the experience that they've had over their lifetime, but also the information that was fed to them when they were born. Big time. Everything I, I joke that most of my life is educated by television sitcoms because I was raised on TV. All the tropes are there. It's like, you're at home, you're wearing an apron, you love ironing. It's like one of your favorite things. Definitely bought my mom an iron for her birthday more than once. She loved it. All those things were tied to like, oh, well that's how you behave. And so yeah, I could see that. The thought was there. The family plantation wasn't really there. My home ec teacher came to school one day, in high school. She was so pissed. She was so pissed. She was like, we're not having class today, just be quiet and sit there. And somebody asked her what was wrong and she was like, you want to know what's wrong? My husband bought me a lawnmower for my birthday. That's what's wrong. He bought himself a lawnmower for her birthday. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. Those are the things you ask for permission to have. Right, right, right. That's not a surprise gift. I have a great idea. You can have your own porch. I'm going to throw you my Amazon wish list. I think if someone gave me a lawnmower, I'd try it out. Challenge accepted. I'm going to use this as much as I can. My daughter mows the lawn in her house. This is mine, don't touch it. Yeah. Now that I think about it, I used to mow the lawn too. I was the one who did it. Am I not perfect for this? Yeah. When you were growing up and you would do things that were maybe outside of your family or teachers or whoever were telling you that's not ladylike or that's not boyish or whatever, did you have any weird, quirky things? I had a couple of weird, quirky things. Even as an adult, I'm looking back and I'm like, I don't know if I've ever heard anybody put womanhood on this. I don't remember. Maybe this is a Southern thing. Southern women have also these expectations placed on them, but there's a little wiggle room that maybe they're not going to be chastised for being loud, for example. I can think of some friends of mine who weren't raised that way, where you're supposed to be as your woman, femininity was tied to demureness. Whereas in Southern cultures, like my mother, loud, boisterousness was actually very attractive in women. One of the things that when I came to Florida from Alabama was kind of a culture shock, was I was always being told I laughed too loud and that it was not ladylike. Don't let anyone ever tell you that. I'm thinking about that now. In Florida? Yeah, in Florida. I was like, I don't think I've ever heard that tied to ladyhood before. But it was one of my weird, quirky things that I had to figure out, what does that mean? Why is that associated with it? Just recently I read and watched some things about that. They were speaking on how a political senator of some sort was delivering her speech, and the way she did it in a very quiet manner, which led to a discussion on speaking that way intentionally. Because in some religions, women are trained to make sure their voice doesn't go above a certain amount, so you don't take up too much space, and you don't show what you're really feeling. They call it a baby voice. Yeah, and the lady who was talking about it said that it took years to untrain herself from doing that, and she would still slip into it. If it seemed like people were being too up front and rudder, she would immediately drop down to this passive voice. And so it may be from that. I can definitely hear what you mean. I don't want to call it... The word I was thinking of is evangelization. It's not quite... I don't know if it's... They use that term, yeah. Evangelization, yeah. In my case, and I have seen this in both, in Venezuela and here, there was a certain connection between being a girl or a woman and being expected to look pretty and to do anything to look pretty, to do an effort to look presentable. And as a kid, I was not really that interested, and that was a problem because that automatically, through the eyes of my family, that made me like a boy. And I was around like, I don't understand. And the worst thing is that I take everything literally, so every time they try to tell me something, I will ask about it. And they will be around like, why do you question it? For example, I remember one time we were going to some place and they want me to use... It was like a headband or something. I don't remember what it was. It had flowers on it. It was too heavy and I didn't like it. Instead of explaining myself, I was like, I don't like it. And their answer was like, but you look so pretty on it. And my immediate answer was saying like, thanks, but I didn't say I didn't look pretty on it. I said I didn't like it. Exactly. And they were like, don't act, they told me this, don't act like that manly. And I was like, it's not manly. It's just I don't like it. Why does it have to do like one thing with another? And it goes both ways. I had a friend. He always liked the way that I paint my nails because I would paint like one nail each color. He always liked it. He never dared to do it. One day I bring my nail polish to school. And once he sees it, he's all like, oh, I love it. Can I please get my nails done? Of course. I did a terrible job. I was really bad at it. I was really bad. For him, being honest. But he was happy with it. He was happy with it. He was going home. We were talking about the phone. And he's talking to me so happily. I really like this color. Do you think you have a more metallic one? And I was like, I don't have it, but I think I'm going to buy nail polish next week. And I came here when he entered his home. And his mother screamed, what do you have in your hand? Why did you do that to yourself? Are you like this will be the equivalent to faggot in Spanish? And I could hear how he went from being super excited to nothing. This will never happen again. Like a bug. Until today, he has never painted his nails again. He will never use it. And I was like, why is that so bad? It was just nail color. Femininity is treated like a dangerous thing. And you can tell me your experience has been this way, Paul. But all of my friends have told me femininity is dangerous for men to participate in. I was terrified to paint my nails. For many reasons. I mean, they're looking really bad right now. But I was terrified to paint my nails at work. And honestly, it sounds really silly. But I credit my trans friends and their courage for giving me the courage to do something dumb like paint my nails. But I felt like it was a challenge almost. But yeah, no, you can't do that. You can't say certain words. Don't say things are cute. You can't say that. Oh, and while you all were talking about it, it occurred to me. As a child, boys weren't allowed to get cold because they didn't need to get cold. Girls could get cold. They might need a jacket. But you're a boy. You're not going to get cold. Fuck off. I never heard that. That's absolutely crazy to me. Yeah. Oh, you're not human? We don't have the same human biology? You're a man. Coldness doesn't affect you. No, no, no, no, no. I'm sure there are, like, several reasons. Let me just turn it off. It's very important. Yeah. I wonder if that has to do with, like, you know, the guy giving girls their coats. And guys always have the long sleeves. And girls are always meant to have, like, the short cut-off things. And the guy has to give a girl a coat because that's what they're supposed to be. You're supposed to be in a beautiful dress. If you get cold, whatever. Like, you know, and the guy is expected to give the girl his stuff. I interviewed Mr. Ponzi because he would do that. I'm happy. I didn't think so. Mr. Ponzi. I bet it's got to be something to that. You get the, you know, you get the, what do they call those, varsity jackets? Yeah. But that's such a, it's so dated now. Yeah, I guess it would be. But I've never thought about that. Like, boys aren't allowed to get cold. Like, that's crazy to me. It's similar to the whole emotion thing. Boys aren't allowed to have emotions either. Right. Yeah. What are you doing? Are you, you know. Even just learning what emotions are and feel like. I have a lot of guy friends who will come back to me, like, I'm trying to, I feel so frustrated with myself as an adult because I don't know how to name emotions. Because I don't know what I'm feeling. And I wasn't encouraged to learn that. That's rough, man. I'll tell you, even like that, because I cry all the time. I'll cry for anything. In fact, I just cried in here a minute ago. Good. But I still, even then, like, if something, especially if I'm watching media and it's making me feel a way, I'll be like, you know, touching myself in my throat and not letting myself cry fully. Because how weak is it to, like, just let that all out? There's still that voice in the back of my head saying that. And it's, like, really hard to let it go and just let yourself cry about stuff sometimes. But I'll tell you what, it's getting harder. It is. Absolutely. But it's also, like, how do you retrain yourself? How do you change the, okay, so thank you for bringing that up, because this is something I was trying to figure out. How do I want to talk about this? One of the things that made me come to the realization that I was not a woman, at least not completely, was I started finding points in my life where everybody else but me seemed to be benefiting from my buy-in to womanhood. Like, everybody else was benefiting but me. And I wasn't getting to enjoy my personhood, or even, like, explore outside of my womanhood or the personhood of it, because I kept hitting walls, like, I have emotions I'm not allowed to express or else I'll be considered hysterical. Or I have desires that I want to pursue but it isn't ladylike. I have feelings or I have experiences that are discrepant in my body with how other people perceive it and interact with it and me. And that's what I think was a big impetus for me was recognizing this incongruence with the personhood that I have and am experiencing is not the personhood that I am having put on me. And womanhood was one of the things that would be put on me that I didn't find I was aligned with. Like, even in the midst of all the positive parts of it, it's like, oh, you should be enjoying this. And you're like, but I'm not. But even then, there would be the complicated issue of there are things I really like. So where does that leave me? I don't really think I am a man. I don't like being thought of as a woman, though. So where does that leave me? There's nothing left. And it was only when I found out, well, there is, actually. We've just been robbed of the history of it in our society. And that's kind of where it came off, I thought, for a while. I'm like, if I don't like being perceived as a woman, isn't the only other option to mean that I'm a man? Well, no. Thankfully, no. But then it's also like, well, there are parts of womanhood that I was socialized in, so I recognize and I'm familiar with and I even still enjoy. But at the same time, when you don't, you almost don't want to buy into it, because then it kind of invalidates the parts of you that don't feel aligned to... Like you feel like you're betraying... Yeah, like you're betraying yourself to a certain degree. And I am just very grateful I have such great people in my life who are willing to sit there and hold my hand through all of those very complicated conversations with myself. But I think these kinds of conversations are really, really helpful to share. Especially when we get to learn some emotional triggers that we're not allowed to, because that's such a social taboo in the workplace. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I'm hopeful, you know, that the younger generation seems more willing to take bits and pieces and do what makes them feel comfortable, whether it's genuinely embraced by their families or not. When Amira comes home, she has all kinds of stories and she and her friends identify differently and everybody is just supportive of each other. And that's where I want to be. I know that there are backstories of garbage times at home because of culture or some gender constrictions. But I'm like, please let the babies, please let them lead the way. Because, you know, exactly, exactly. We don't like being stuck always exactly. And, you know, our little box, let's not do that to them. Yeah, let's not do that to people. Yeah. I even heard just a teen walking by the other day made me chuckle like they always do. They're just talking to each other. What they say is that St. Patrick feels like a he-they to me. And the laugh I got just came out of me, meaning like St. Patrick must have had he and them pronouns. They just feel like a he-they, not my name. It made me chuckle a little bit. It's just like, it was a great little moment. And I have those all the time, just being around kids. Yeah. And you're right, a lot of them do these different things. They're figuring it out. Yeah. Better than we are. And I'm, I mean, I'm more than willing to admit, I support whatever they want to do. But I'm ignorant in a lot of ways, too. So she's constantly telling me, you know, what this means, what that means. And, you know, I'll be like a legit elderly person. Oh, my gosh, I've never heard of that. And she's like, yeah, for real. So, you know, she educates me. Good. And. But also good for you for like being interested. I feel blinded with everything. There's so much to know. It can be overwhelming sometimes. I'm sure. I don't want to get it wrong, you know, because I want to make sure everyone gets the respect that they deserve. I have found out that most people, it's actually, it's actually happy that you're recognizing it, or you're making any effort to recognize it. I have found that most people get really happy if you do the question like, hey, what are your pronouns? Just like that. Just that little effort is just more than enough. And we're taking it back. Well, I guess that is it. All right. We're going to wrap it up. Afro. Thank you, guys, for the wonderful, stimulating conversation. Thank you for inviting me to it. Thank you for being here. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.