Dr. Bhatt

Dr. Kalkesh Bhatt, a practicing Hindu, explains how Hinduism views suffering and how it has shaped his perspective. Hinduism believes in the concept of Atman, or the soul, which is immortal and divine. Dr. Bhatt shares an example of how this belief helps people cope with suffering, specifically during a severe earthquake in India. He also discusses the importance of interpreting sacred texts in one's own way and how Hinduism encourages multiple interpretations. Overall, Hindu principles help individuals cope with suffering and adversity. Hi, I'm here with Dr. Kalkesh Bhatt, my religion professor and also a somewhat practicing Hindu. Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Katie. Absolutely. So, how would you say that your faith has shaped your perspective and your approach of suffering? Suffering? Yes. So, some of the key fundamentals of Hinduism and this you will find across, I would say, almost all Hindu traditions because Hinduism is so wide, so diverse and different theological and philosophical perspectives and principles are there, but something that is common among most Hindu traditions is the concept of Atman or the soul or the self, whatever you want to call it, and in the Bhagavad Gita that I studied, I studied for my dissertation as well, and at home my mother used to recite a specific chapter from the Bhagavad Gita and her office used to listen to it and I can almost, it's almost memorized. So, in that chapter, Krishna talks about immortality of Atman, that Atman is imperishable, it is pure, it is divine, and it just changes body one after another. So, one of the highest suffering is death and the fear of death, and I have seen many such events, incidents where people have overcome different kinds of sufferings and death through this Hindu philosophical principle of we not being this body but being Atman, and let me give you an interesting example, actually that's one of the key, it has really struck a wire with me, although it's almost 20 years, the incident happened almost 20 years ago. Actually, I begin my dissertation with that incident. So, in 2001, there was severe earthquake in India, in Gujarat, and at that time, the government told me to go there, do filming of what's going on etc., and also I wanted to serve there in the humanitarian services and relief activities. So, it happened on January 26, 2001, I was there within 12 hours or so, and next day on January 27, I began serving people and going out. Okay, so I'll tell you two things that happened, I mean you can edit it, whatever it's like. So, the very first thing that I encountered was an apartment totally crumbled into rubbles, and I was just doing filming there, shooting video, shooting there, and I heard shouts from beneath the apartment, that we are all alive here, could you please save us, and this and that. So, I immediately rushed to the military people, because they were the ones with all the heavy equipment. So, I said like there are people alive there, buried, and could you please save, so they also came there on the site, and they removed one huge beam that was there, and what they found there was a dead body, and this might be a bit cross-description, but it was a decapitated dead body, no head, it was gone somewhere. It was of a woman, so they simply brought it in the ground, and then they continued with that other things. But another military major who was there, he asked people around it, because there were some survivors from the apartment, and also from neighboring places, so nobody knew who was from where. So, they simply asked like, does anybody want, does anybody know this person want to have this dead body, otherwise they have to send it there, and the people there, they sold from distance, and nobody claimed the dead body, and I was watching all this, and I was actually videotaping all this. Then after a while that major said like, okay, remove all the ornaments from her body, because she was actually loaded with jewelry, golden and silver jewelry, count each of them, put them in this one bag, make a list of that, that we need to deposit at this place, and then the dead body at this other place. But the moment he said that, some people heard it, and then they came near, earlier they had seen her from distance, now they really approached, and they said, oh my goodness, she was really, she was actually, it seemed like she was going to some marriage or some function, and loaded with jewelry, and suddenly one guy says, oh, she is my wife, and the major was like, really? And then another person says, no, she is my wife, my spouse, and three, four of them started fighting among themselves. I have all this on video, and it's like everybody was shocked, like it's actually the dance of death everywhere. There were more than 30,000 people died. So, it's like you can imagine, there are piles of dead bodies everywhere, there is destruction everywhere, debris everywhere, and can anybody be so greedy? Like, just fighting for few ornaments, claiming that she is, and that military guy major got severely angry, and then he says, okay, who all are saying that, claiming that this is my spouse? So, two or three guys came forward, he slapped each of them. He says, okay, if she is really your wife, still, all this jewelry, ornaments will go to the collector's office, you go there, prove that she is your wife, and then collect it. You are not getting that. You can take the dead body if you want. So, this avarice, this greed was so shameful, it was disgusting. And then I said, like, how can we be so mean, so selfish? Anyway, so I was really upset, and then I went ahead, just as I turned corner, I saw a huge pile of debris, like almost 11, 15 feet tall debris everywhere, and there was one old man, an old uncle sitting on the top of it. It was like kind of lonely person sitting on the top of debris, and I was like, oh my goodness. So, I approached the person, I climbed that, and I went there with some hot tea, because that's what is immaterial. So, I offered hot tea, and I just casually asked, like, uncle, is there anybody whom you have lost or anything like this? And he just kept on looking at me blankly for a few seconds, and then he said, lad, you know, this pile of debris and rubble on which we are standing right now, that was just yesterday, my two-storied bungalow, bungalow is a big home in India, it's called bungalow, so my two-storied home, and I had gone for a walk, and I was returning, and I was just across the road, and right in front of my eyes, and then earthquake happened, and I saw this whole home crumbling right in front of my eyes, and under this debris were my wife, my three sons, three daughters-in-law, and all grandchildren. I've lost everything. I haven't heard more severe expression of suffering, you asked about suffering, like more than this, and so I was very like, I didn't know what to say, what to do, and he was like, of course, he was also very like, choked throat and other thing, but then he said, suddenly he said, like, do you read the Gita? And I said, what? He said, the Bhagavad Gita, do you read that? And I said, I haven't read it, but I have heard it because my mother recites it, and then he said, in the second chapter of the Gita, Krishna says, I mean, he then recites a verse in Sanskrit, which is, चतस्यही त्रवूर्व् बृत्यु, and then it goes on, but what it means is, everybody who is born is bound to die one day, and everybody who dies is bound to be born one day. So, why be apprehensive about it? This is the fact, just simply accept it. There are many such verses in the Bhagavad Gita, and he started reciting all of them one after another, like it's like, just as we change clothes every day, this body changes clothes, similarly the soul changes bodies. It's like a cloth that you wear daily, and so he was really surprised by his courage, and then he said, while we were doing it, I said, I'm going out for relief work, and also filming at the same time, and he said, can I join you? I said, yes, of course you can. So, he joined me, and then there was a relief camp where he found comfortable, and he started serving them, because I had to roam a lot, and then I met him on every few days, and then realized that he was counseling others, and he was kind of people all the victims wanted to meet him. So, these are the such principles, few principles I'm talking. Another principle is very much similar to the Buddhism principle, which has actually come from Hinduism, is the world is perishable. It is changeable and continuously changing. It is the fleeting world. It is our desire to hold on to it. It is our desire to kind of make it steady, stable or as I wish. Those desires are problematic for us. So, these kinds, and I can go on for many such principles, but these are the kinds of principles that to whatever extent practicing Hindus or anybody understand, to that extent one can cope with suffering, and such adversities. Wow, that's very profound, and it sounds a lot easier said than done. Right. Oh, sorry, do you have another sheet? No, no, no. So, that was, it's funny that you were able to just get to so many of my questions before I even asked them, so that was very like insightful and profound. I appreciate that. Do you feel, this is something we've talked about a bit in class, do you feel as though Hinduism encourages that each individual interprets the sacred text for their own meaning and purposes, or do you feel like it's generally straightforward enough that it only lends to one interpretation, and what do you think the psychological implications are of that either way? So, by the way, the sacred texts themselves encourage multiple interpretations. They don't want many of them, and of course there are many different texts and many different interpretations, but as I have understood it, it encourages every individual to kind of understand its crux, interpret it in the way they do it. Of course, they say that there are certain general ultimate truths, but those truths are not kind of, this is exactly how you have to believe or you have to do. For example, most Hindu texts believe in the ultimate divinity or ultimate reality. Now, how do you want to understand that reality or divinity? What should be its form? Once it is clear that most of them say it is beyond gender, so it is genderless, although they say the divinity by itself is genderless, but if you are comfortable worshipping that entity or whatever you want to call it, divinity, entity, some metaphysical entity, if you are comfortable worshipping it as she, like goddess, go ahead, do it. If you are comfortable worshipping it as he, a god, say Ram or Krishna or Swami Narayan, go ahead, do it. If you are comfortable worshipping it as formless entity, like there is no form, neither male nor female or any other form, go ahead, do it. If you want to worship it as a ray of light or point of light or source of light, go ahead, do it. What is common is that divinity is profoundly peaceful, blissful and source of infinite happiness, joy, whatever you want to call it, bliss. That's common. But how do you want to understand it? How do you want to interpret it? You are free to do so primarily because that form or shape or non-form or non-shape would help you connect with divinity. So the point is to connect with divinity. So there is scope of such interpretations, multiple interpretations. From the literature that I've examined, it seems like there are sort of people in two boats, like there's either people who appreciate the flexibility and think that that's the most loving form of a deity, can be implemented to anyone's perspective. And some people actually have found it troubling and confusing and overwhelming that it's up to them to interpret things and decide for their own. Can you speak to what you felt like in your experience in interpreting sacred texts? Yes, you're right. If, see, it becomes problematic. When I claim that the form and shape that I like or I worship or I adhere to is the final form and shape and know that all, everybody else is wrong, they don't know the truth, what I know is the truth and I'm right, then it's problematic, right? As long as I understand it as that, well, I like the loving form of Krishna or of Swaminarayan, like for example, there are even just for deity Krishna, I would say there are at least five or six different forms that I know of and there could be more denominations that worship child Krishna, denominations that worship young youth Krishna, denominations that worship Krishna in the war, right? So, they like the Bhagavad Gita and the philosophy and principles. Those who worship the youth form like Krishna's playful activities and other things, right? So, it could be confusing for those people who believe that there is only one form, one text, one this, one ultimate God, and there cannot be any other forms and whatever their assumption of that God or divine is, then it's confusing that, oh, this is polytheistic. It's not polytheistic. It is monotheistic in the sense that one ultimate divinity, but the belief that the divinity manifests itself in innumerable forms and shapes and ways, to cater to individual's level of spirituality so that that tailoring to that person is to elevate that person from wherever he, she, they are to a higher level. One quote doesn't fit all. That's why for some people it is confusing and it is either confusing or conflicting for those who think that this is the way, the only way and no other way works. That was a very helpful explanation. I appreciate it. I don't want to take up too much of your time. I do have like two more questions for you. In your practice of Hinduism, have you experienced any particular practices or beliefs that you found were troubling or caused any sort of internal conflict for you? Fortunately, not internal conflict for me, but troubling, sure. What is troubling is, and I would say like it's not just Hinduism, the way I perceive it, is maybe any religion or even any ideology that is non-religious or secular. But let me first describe what is troubling for me in Hinduism. In Hinduism, in earlier centuries or maybe even 60-70 years ago, but earlier centuries, the way caste system was in place, today it is significantly different. Today, when I meet other Hindu, nobody knows who comes from which caste. Today, that's not the case. Unfortunately, today those caste system and segregations are kept alive only by politicians to create their work banks. That's a very unfortunate part. They don't want it to go away because it's a good way to divide people and conquer and grab your power. But the way it was implemented in society and the way lower caste people were treated by higher caste people, and the way it kind of got, so to say, into the social, cultural divisions, that is surely very troubling for me. Second thing, similarly, the way women were treated. Now, it's fortunately in the case of women, it's 180 degree different. And now, most Hindu women, they are very progressive and most families are very progressive and they understand. But the way it used to be in the last century or earlier, that was troubling. Although there were many, many cases, I mean, a significant number of women saints, women devotees who were respected. And fortunately, what has really been helpful is worship of Devi or Goddesses in Hinduism. So, compared to other religions, it was far, far progressive or ahead of that because of worshipping of femininity. And let me tell you one very interesting thing. In sacred Hindu texts, almost everything, if not everything, I'm just saying almost for the sake of safety, but almost everything or everything that we human beings require to live, that is for our physical body to sustain, grow, nourish, our mental faculty, anything that we require to live, all the terms are feminine and they are worshipped as feminine divinity. Just to give example, food, we require food, right? So, food is called Anna and there is Annapurna Devi, that is Devi whom you worship for all the food including fruits and agriculture and everything that is eat is all Annapurna Devi. And there is offering that you give to Devi before you eat with the thanks, right? Water primarily comes from rivers. Traditionally, it was river. All rivers without any exception are feminine, Ganga, Yamuna and they are called Mother. Mother Ganga, Mother Yamuna, Mother rice or everything. Then, interact, Buddhi, Buddhi is feminine. Art, Kala, Kala is the Sanskrit word, is feminine. Anything that you can say, mind, chit, feminine. All mental faculties, all physical things or even related to soul, it's all feminine and there is a feminine divinity attached to it. So, you kind of worship. Even country is Mother India. Nature is Mother Nature, everything feminine. So, in those sacred texts, whoever designed or whoever composed those texts, they very subtly put this into everyday life, hoping that that would generate respect for women or for femininity in general. But nonetheless, you know, the problem is the human being gets somehow bolstering my ego, establishing my power, things like that and it's like people use religion and as a tool, as a means to grab power. If tomorrow, let's say, there is no religion in the world, they will still use some ideology, some philosophy, something to do that or even if there is only one religion, there will still be problems and divisions and things like that. But those are the things that were troubling for me and I wish that people understand the true spirit of sacred texts, of Hinduism, how all-inclusive it has always been. So, if you read texts those way, in that way and understand it in that way, that's what I believe hopefully should have been done. Fortunately, it is not that much of an inner conflict for me and I do have inner conflicts, but fortunately those philosophical principles and theological philosophy has helped me overcome them. That's awesome, thank you. I just have one more question for you. So, I sort of know from what you shared with us in class, but I'd love to hear for the podcast and from your perspective, what Hinduism influences in terms of forgiveness and letting go of negativity in life? Those are very big things in Hinduism, both forgiveness and letting go of things. So, I would say almost all different sacred texts of Hinduism and there are many. Unlike Christianity, there is not one Bible or one Old Testament, New Testament, there are many texts like the Ramayana, the Mahabharata, the epics, the historical stories, the Vedas and Upanishads are the philosophical texts. Then there are many Puranas like Bhagavad Purana, which tells many different stories of different deities and primarily of Krishna and so forth. Almost in all of them, you find this concept of letting things go, renunciation and also of forgiveness. And then they are replete with stories after stories after stories that reinforce these principles. Just to give you one example, and I love this verse and interestingly it was also Gandhiji's favorite verse as well. And it comes from the Upanishads, which are the oldest texts, parts of the Vedas, which are more than maybe 3,500-4,000 years old. And the very first verse of one of the Upanishads, it is called Ishopanishad. It means, इशावास्यं इदं सर्वं यक्तिन्जिद् जगत्यां जगत् तेन च तेन बुञ्जिथा What it means is that इशावास्यं इदं सर्वं, whatever you see in this world and to whatever extent you can see in the sky, in the stars or whatever, in short anything and everything that you see, whether it's living being, animate, sentient being or inanimate only, in everyone and in everything the divine resides. So, learn to see divinity in everyone and in everything and therefore, so this is one principle and therefore now comes the second part, तेन च तेन बुञ्जिथा, which is you enjoy things by renouncing it, not by savoring it or not by consuming it, and then it goes on to say that there is more happiness, more joy in giving it away rather than using it. If you give it to somebody and if that person really needs it or enjoys it, by seeing that person enjoying it, the kind of fulfillment that you get is much more than what you get by consuming it. So, this is how the whole Upanishad begins, like give away the things, that's number one. Letting things go, it's like holding it or possessing it or claiming it, they are all related to kind of reinforcing one's I-ness and my-ness, and the principle is that anything and everything that we want to hold on to or possess is all mayic. Mayic is something that is stemmed out of or born out of maya, which is illusion. Maya is something which going back to that changeable and changing, maya is changeable and constantly changing, it doesn't remain the same. So, Hinduism has these two differences, the soul, the Atman and the Paramatman. Param is higher Atman, which is the divine. Each individual, each living being is Atman and there is one Paramatman, the higher Atman, which is the divine. These are permanent things, they don't change, they are always pure, they are not sinners. It is unfortunately, they use their free will to identify themselves with something that is changing, which is maya, and that identity is a problem. It is not that they themselves are problematic or sinners and they can use their free will tomorrow to let that identity go off, let off that identity and realize their true self. So, the problem is anything that is maya is changing, changeable, these are not changing, and when you want to hold on to something, possess something, it is external to you, which is maya. So, why possess it? Be self-situated, self-sufficient, realize who you are, realize who the divine is, because divine is again within you, it resides within you, it is not just out there, it is within you, be self-sufficient. And that is the reason why you can let things go off easily or you can renounce things easily, because maya doesn't belong to you and even if it belongs to you, it is changing. Even if I have a beautiful home today, maybe one of the biggest homes in the world or the biggest home in the world, right, with 1,000 rooms or whatever, an earthquake like the one happened in Gujarat would happen and I will be standing on the top of the rubble of that 1,000 room home. It will not stay mine. Tomorrow, someday, the greatest empires have crumbled and gone, you go to Greece today and Athens today and those huge pillars, all you see is that, right? So, that is one thing, and similarly when you see somebody acting not in a proper way or let us say insulting me or doing something to me which hurts me, rather than seeing that thing as something that is hurting me, his behaviour, I can see that yes, I know that that Atman, the Atman that is residing in this body, right, is pure, but unfortunately that Atman is identifying itself with the body and therefore behaving in this way and hurting me, but I should not take it that seriously because the Atman residing in your body is pure, just as mine is pure, your Atman is also pure, and so rather than retaliating or reacting to it, I can see the other person with compassion and even prayer that I pray for you that your ignorance of seeing yourself as this body made that go away, and what you are doing does not actually affect me because it is that body-to-body maya thing that comes from it. So, compassion and forgiveness come naturally, this kind of, they entail this kind of philosophical understanding or metaphysical understanding. Thank you so much, I really appreciate it and I am looking forward to putting this all together.