EP. 16 MIKE SCHREINER

The host, Bill Kelly, welcomes Mike Schreiner, the MPP for Guelph and leader of the Ontario Green Party, to discuss recent events at Queen's Park. They talk about the government's changing stance on the Greenbelt and urban boundary expansions, which Schreiner believes is an attempt to avoid scandal. They criticize the government's lack of focus on addressing the housing affordability crisis and the disregard for recommendations from task forces. They also mention the issues with the Ontario autism program and the government's allocation of resources. Welcome to the Bill Kelly podcast, critical discussions in critical times. Here's your host, Bill Kelly. And welcome to another edition of the Bill Kelly podcast, critical discussions in critical times. I'm your host, Bill Kelly. Things are going crazy all over the world. We've talked about some of the global problems that are going on and talked about those extensively of course on podcasts over the last couple of days. But here in Ontario, there's a lot happening too. And this is a very, very pivotal time, I think, for Ontario politics in so many different ways. And joining us to talk about some of the goings on, shall we say, at Queen's Park over the last couple of days in particular, we are pleased to welcome to the podcast, Mike Schreiner. Mike, of course, is the MPP for Guelph and the leader of the Ontario Green Party. Michael, great to talk with you again. Thanks so much for making some time for us today. Oh, hey, Bill. My pleasure to be on. And good to see you doing a podcast nowadays. Well, it's something that we've always kind of shot for and thought, hey, this is going to be great. And now that we're doing it and we've got both feet into it, I'm just loving it. It's a lot of fun. And we're still talking about some of the key issues. And you talk about flashpoints and play word association, and all you need to say around Queen's Park these days is Greenbelt. And you get a very, very passionate discussion about that. And if you don't like the government's policy about the Greenbelt, well, just wait a couple of weeks because they're probably going to change it. That seems to be the modus operandi. Give us, Mike, your read on what's gone on about that in the last couple of days, especially. Well, we've seen major backtracks from the government on what I would call Greenbelt 1.0. And now we're seeing them backtrack on Greenbelt 2.0. And I think what they're trying to do is get out ahead of the next scandal that could be rocking this government. And that's why they reversed their decision to enforce urban boundary expansion onto many communities across Ontario, including Hamilton and Ottawa, Welles, Waterloo region, Wellington, the Alton region, the list goes on and on. And I think it's because the exact same corrupt decision making process that led to the corrupt decision to open the Greenbelt for development. So a handful of wealthy, well-connected Ford insiders could cash in $8.3 billion is happening with these enforced urban boundary expansions. And I think the government's trying to get out ahead of that scandal as more information becomes available to the public. Now, I understand, you know, that change is a certain part of politics. You know, the old Churchill quote, you know, those who don't change don't change anything. I get that. But this is a different read on change, isn't it, Mike? I mean, you know, first of all, there was, you know, I'm never going to touch the Greenbelt. I'm never going to touch the Greenbelt. What was it, 38 times? I think he said that publicly anyway. God knows how many times behind, well, maybe not at all behind closed doors because of what he eventually did. But they were adamant about that. And then he did it and he said, it's absolutely necessary and it's not going to change. Well, it changed. And then, of course, we already know what happened with the urban boundary expansion at the same time. It's not as if they say, oh, you know what, you've raised some legitimate points. Let's reassess this. They just said no, no, no. And then the next day they said, yeah, we're going to do it now. Where's the credibility in a situation like that? Well, there is no credibility, Bill. I mean, basically, the premier got caught, you know, supporting a corrupt process that led to a corrupt decision to help a handful of poor, connected, wealthy elites cash in eight point three billion dollars. And we know there's more to come. And that's why they reversed course now on urban boundary expansions and they're reviewing ministerial zoning orders. And Bill, what is so infuriating about what is happening right now is the government has wasted essentially the last two years not addressing the housing affordability crisis, which is the number one issue facing people in Ontario. It's the number one driver of the cost of living crisis that we're facing. And instead of having a premier focus on building homes that ordinary people can afford in the communities they want to live in on land that's already approved for development, we already have enough land approved for development. The premier instead has been focusing in on breaking the rules, pulling out the red carpet. So a handful of wealthy, well-connected elite land speculators can cash in. And that's just wrong. And Bill, I want to be very clear. You know what? I admire politicians who change their mind. I mean, certainly I've had, you know, people come to me and I get additional information and my position may evolve on a certain issue. But for the premier to spend the last two years saying things like, you know, the Greenbelt is a scam. It was, you know, imposed on us like, you know, like a Russian dictator or North Korean dictator would impose it on their citizens. And just some of the outlandish and outrageous comments the premier has made. And then for him to just quickly reverse course and say, oh, nothing to see here. We're ready to move on. Why do the people of Ontario deserve honest answers to how this corrupt process can happen? And they need to hold the premier accountable. I'm certainly going to hold the premier accountable for the fact that they've wasted the last, it's been two years almost since their own handpicked housing affordability task force put forward a number of recommendations on how to address the housing affordability crisis. And the premier has pretty much ignored those, gone in a completely different direction and is now saying, oh, everything I've done over the last two years was a big mistake. We're going to reverse course. Meanwhile, people in Ontario are struggling to be able to pay the rent or find an affordable place to buy. But the excuses, and they're not reasons, they're excuses that he has used in this just don't seem to hold any water, Mike. And I think that's what really pisses off an awful lot of people here is how stupid does he think we are? You know, when he first of all, he says, yeah, we made a mistake. There were some flaws in the process. What was their process? They designed it. I know the ministerial orders were there in the past, but this is a government that's taken some of those tools and abused them. I mean, as you and I've talked about in the past, they've used those ministerial zoning orders more in the last two years than any government has for the last 50. And it's simply a matter of just jamming stuff through. And, you know, we the hell of process. And you're right about the Housing Affordability Task Force. Tim Hudak was in charge of that. A conservative, former leader of the Ontario Conservatives, had Tim on the show many times talking about this. And I know he's a very thorough guy. And they came up with, I thought, a pretty legitimate report. It got tossed in the blue bin someplace. They did the same thing with the autism report just after Ford got elected the first time. The autistic funding was just horrendous. And they put a task force together. They come up with, I thought, some pretty decent recommendations. They were ignored totally. Like, why bother going through the process if you're not going to pay attention to the recommendations from the people that you appointed to that? It doesn't make any sense. Well, exactly. In the case of the autism program, I mean, there are now 60,000 young people on a waiting list to access autism services in the province of Ontario. And every parent knows that early intervention is where when you get the best outcome. And so imagine being a parent, your child is diagnosed beyond the autism spectrum and you're waiting years to access funding for services. And many of those parents, those who can, you know, pay out of pocket, but the costs are so high that most people can't afford that. I've met with numerous families who, you know, remortgage their homes or, you know, barely being able to, you know, meet their month to month payments and are just desperate to access the Ontario autism program because they know how important early intervention is. And the Ford government has just allowed the list to balloon out of control. And then for some children who are on the list, it's not a needs-based program. And so some kids need additional services, some need less services. That's not accounted for. And then the program ages young people out. That's wrong. So on so many levels, when it comes to things like addressing the housing affordability crisis or the affordability crisis in general, things like accessing autism services, health care services, et cetera, you know, the Ford government's really let the people of Ontario down. Well, and I talked to the minister in charge of it was Lisa McLeod at that time. And because there are some very important questions about that. And you raised, I think, one of the most contentious issues about that file. You age out of it. So in other words, at 15, I guess you don't have autism anymore. It doesn't impact your life anymore. I mean, what a stupid thing to put in there. But it was all about and it always has been with this government. It's about money, where they want to allocate the resources and to whom they want to allocate their resources. They're not going to say we're going to make a better program for those families. We're not going to say we're going to protect their environment for the future. They're just like, OK, this is how much we're going to spend. And here's who's going to be the beneficiary of that. And that seems to be the main focus for this government. And that's that's troubling. I mean, that's that's going back to the old days of politics. You know, the the big bosses and who had the biggest envelope full of money for them. I hate to say that's what's going on here. But, you know, Mike, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck. Well, absolutely. Bill, in the case of envelopes, I mean, we've had both the auditor general and the integrity commissioner show how well-connected, wealthy insiders literally handed envelopes to, you know, staff members who support government directing government policy that would enable them to cash in, in the case of the Greenbelt, 8.3 billion dollars in windfall profits. Like that just isn't how we want a government to operate. It's not fair to the people of Ontario. It's actually not fair to other developers who are playing by the rules and don't have special access to the board government. And all of it is delaying the building of homes that people can afford at a time when we're facing, you know, the worst housing crisis our province has ever faced. Well, and they didn't really seem to get that right either, did they? And by the way, I always have to put this into the conversation and I will again. Not everybody who builds houses in this province is corrupt. As a matter of fact, the overwhelming majority play by the rules and they complain about them sometimes, but they play by the rules. There's a handful that think that they can have easy access and that's problematic. And at a critical time like this, when we should be bringing those people to the table and working with them, he's alienating the whole industry and he's turning an awful lot of the public opinion against development, which which is not a bad thing as long as it's done smartly, which is one of the reasons why the Greenbelt was instituted in the first place. So there could be smart growth. They they don't seem to get the big picture here. Well, exactly. Yeah, I want to like you, Bill, I want to be very clear. Most developers are good business people who want to build homes and they need to make a living building those homes to pay their staff and themselves, etc. And so for the board government to give preferential access and special treatment to a handful to cash in literally billions of dollars in windfall profits, it changed the whole industry with a brush that I think other developers resent. And yeah, we need developers. My gosh, we're in a housing crisis. We need homes built. They need to be built in the right places and they need to be built according to rules that ensure the affordability of our cities, ensure we protect our farmland, wetlands and forests because that land is vital to growing our food and protecting us from extreme weather events like flooding and other climate related events. And so it just needs to be done right. And that's why you need to follow a proper process that's fair to all developers. Which I hope we're going to get back to spins around to the legislation that was introduced just a couple of days ago. Paul Calandra is now the minister in charge of this thing. He seems to get all the trouble things. And here you go fix long term care. He didn't, by the way, but he's out of that portfolio now. And now he's into municipal affairs and housing. But first blush that you've had at the legislation that they said was going to, quote unquote, fix this problem. It's basically kind of a cover your butt piece of legislation, isn't it? It says, yeah, we're going to reverse this right now, but you can't sue us and you can't come after us for money. They're basically trying to cover their own selves so that there there's no legal liability here. But that's not really very assuring that this is the long term solution that we were looking for. Well, yeah, this this legislation is definitely a cover, cover your your butt piece of legislation. And, you know, the ironic thing of it is, is let's protect the Greenbelt from Doug Ford is really what we call, you know, let's let's try to figure out how we keep Premier Ford's hands off the Greenbelt. You know, I think at first blush, the legislation is frankly better than I thought it was going to be. But I think there are some things that can improve it. And I'm going to be moving forward some amendments. So, for example, there are conservation easements on all of the Dufferin Rouge Agricultural Preserve land. I fully support that. They were there until the Ford government took them away. But why not put those conservation easements on all lands in the Greenbelt? Because it would add an additional layer of protection. And then one of the loopholes that's been in the Greenbelt since it was first enacted by the Liberals is that infrastructure projects can happen. And, you know, there's really not like nothing anyone can do about it. The government can just move them forward. And I understand the need for some infrastructure. But, you know, my gosh, do we need a 400 series highway like 413 that's going to pave over, you know, 400 acres of the Greenbelt and 2,000 acres of prime farmland and unleash expensive sprawl in the whole region? Or do we need another mega quarry in Caledon in the heart of the Greenbelt? And so I think there needs to be additional protections in the Greenbelt Act to say that we're truly going to protect this land. And I get that because I know their excuse was, well, you know, there have been a number of different changes to the Greenbelt over the years. But that was designed by legislation. They said every few years there's going to be a reevaluation of it. And maybe we got that right. Maybe we can tweak this. I mean, one of the examples you used to use about infrastructure was the Highway 6 extension to Hamilton International Airport. That that was supposedly protected land. Well, you've got the biggest cargo airport in Canada and there's nowhere to get it there. How do you get the goods out? So that was a good idea. That was a smart thing to do to get that Highway 6 extension. It's helped the airport and everybody benefited from that. But again, you know, I know you've talked an awful lot about the extension of the highways that the governments, the four governments talking we're doing right now. They didn't even go through that environmental process. They just rubber stamp them and say, we're going to build it if you don't like it too bad, so sad. And the Bradford bypass is going through. This other one is going through. I don't know how they're going to fund it right now. But that's the abuse of the system that I think people are finally opening their eyes to and say, wait a second, that's not how government is supposed to work. Well, exactly. I mean, you have laws in place like the Environmental Assessment Act to ensure that when you do build infrastructure, it's done in a proper way. Not only to the benefit of the environment, which is obviously critically important, but also the benefit of the surrounding community to make sure that community infrastructures in a way that minimizes disruption to people and their lives and ensures that we maximize benefits for people and communities. You know, one of the things I've been really pushing on today that's slightly connected to this is a year ago with Bill 23, not only did the government open the Greenbelt for development, which is blown up in their face, but they also took away development charges from municipalities. And according to the Association of Municipalities of Ontario, all municipalities across the province, with the exception of Toronto, it's going to remove five point one billion dollars from their budgets, which is vital money needed to service the building of new homes so that we have stormwater and lease water and water lines and, you know, transit and streets and police and fire stations and libraries and parks and other things. So how the heck are we going to build homes that people can afford if we don't, if municipalities don't have the money to service those homes? I don't know about you, I want running water in my home. I want basic sewer and sanitation in my home. And so the fact that the government's taken that away from municipalities is actually going to make it harder and more difficult and delay home building construction. And so there's a whole host of ways in which the government has put forward impediments to building more homes, which is only making the housing crisis worse. And slowing it down, which is causing all sorts of other problems. But the key word here, I guess, and I know you've talked about this often on some of your social media posts, is affordability. If they're going to remove those costs to developers, you know, for servicing and things of this nature, it falls on to the property taxpayers. Well, already, I don't know how many you've talked to, probably into the hundreds if not thousands of people that said, you know, I just had to renew my mortgage. It's double what it was six months ago now. And now you're telling me the development charges are going to go into my property taxes? People are at the point now where they're saying, look, I got to walk away. I can't afford this house anymore. I never thought we'd see that here in Ontario, but here we are. Yeah, what I've been trying to, and I asked this question in the legislature earlier today, and the premier, of course, didn't answer it, but that we are going to price people out of their homes because when property taxes go up too much, then that affects people's rent because that flows through directly to renters and the cost of home ownership, especially for people on fixed incomes. And I'm especially thinking of seniors. It just means that they may not be able to continue to afford their home. And so, you know, if the province wants to remove development charges from new construction, then the province needs to pay for the infrastructure for that growth and the servicing of those new homes. That's how it used to be done in Ontario. And when the province said, hey, we don't want to pay for that infrastructure anymore. And municipalities rightfully said, well, hey, the property taxpayer can't afford it. That's when development charges were brought in. So if the province is going to take that away, then they're going to have to replace that funding or they're just going to make life even less affordable for people. Well, and we're seeing that in Hamilton Council, Guelph Council, Toronto Council. I talked to the Toronto City Manager, Paul Johnson, who's an old friend of ours from years gone by, and he says they're facing the same problem. It's problematic. Property taxes, which is how municipalities generate their revenue, is the most prohibitive tax in the world. I mean, most other income taxes, provincial and federal, is based on how much money you make. If you make more money, supposedly you pay more tax, etc. But property tax is not based on your ability to pay. They just give you the bill and said, that's your address, Mike. Here's how much your taxes are, buddy. I'll pony up. And if you can't afford it, what are you going to do? There's not a whole lot of options here, are there? Exactly, exactly. And so I'm deeply, deeply worried that if the province doesn't fix this and fix it soon, because as you know, municipalities are moving into their budget process. So I know I was looking through some of the budget documents for the City of Guelph, and this is going to cost them $227 million just for the City of Guelph. So imagine what it's going to be like for Hamilton and Toronto and, you know, other Mississauga, other larger municipalities. The number is going to even be significantly higher. We are going, the foreign government is either going to impose major property tax increases on to people that they simply can't afford, or municipalities are simply going to say, well, we want to build more homes, but we can't because we don't have the money to pay for the infrastructure needed for these new homes. I got one other thing, and I'm kind of going off sideways here for just a second, but I know it's a very controversial issue that's been going on and developing at Queen's Park over the last couple of days to do with the dismissal of an MPP from Hamilton, as it turns out. Sarah Jama has been essentially removed from the NDP caucus, and that's an internal party issue as far as I'm concerned. I know it's very controversial, and I know there was a lot of debate behind closed doors, but the NDP leader Mark Stiles finally decided to remove her. And I don't want to get too deeply into that because that's an NDP issue, and we'll talk about that with them. But more importantly, there was also a government initiative, a Doug Ford initiative, to censure the MPP. Now, this was before she was even booted out of the party, as I understand it, that was before the House. It passed because the PCs have a majority government. But I saw some of your posts on social media, Mike, and you had some concerns about process in this whole situation and about whether that motion should even have been brought forward. Talk to us about that. Yeah, you know, Bill, first of all, I just fully condemn the terrorist attack from Hamas on to Israeli civilians and, you know, killing and taking people hostage is just flat out wrong. And so I called on MPP Jama to remove her tweet that was harmful to the Jewish community. That being said, I think we need to proceed very cautiously when it comes to censoring an MPP. So I voted against the board government's motion to basically that basically said to MPP Jama that, you know, you can't speak in the legislature, which essentially saying to people, Hamilton Center, that they don't have a voice in the legislature. And I think it's for them to determine, not me to determine. And, you know, the legislature and some people have made this comparison, did censure Randy, MPP Randy Hillier in going into the 2022 election for a number of inflammatory things he said on Twitter. But one of the differences there was, you know, we all gave MPP Hillier a number of warnings, letters, opportunities to apologize that wasn't afforded to MPP Jama. And I think we should always, from a democratic standpoint, always proceed cautiously when it's other legislators, especially those of us from other parties, telling another member that, you know, they can't speak in the legislature because we disagree with their views on an issue. And I think what's really hurtful and I worry about what's come out of the debate on this bill is that we have an alarming rise in anti-Semitism and Islamophobia in Ontario right now, inflamed by what's happening in the Middle East. And, you know, I just really call on MPPs from all parties, let's all come together and let's stand with the Jewish community. Let's stand with the Palestinian community and the broader Arabic and Muslim community and say that, you know, regardless of what's going on in the world, we here in Ontario, we're going to stand together against hate. We're going to ensure that everyone in our communities are feeling safe. And I can guarantee you there are a number of members of our Jewish community and our Palestinian communities who are not feeling safe right now. And I think that's a serious issue we need to address. But I don't think we're going to address it through divisive debate in the House. We're going to address it by coming together and speaking as one voice against anti-Semitism and Islamophobia. But it wasn't even it wasn't even debate in the House, though. I guess that's the thing that really rattles my cage here. It was on social media. She made some comments and then the premier made some comments about her in troubled times, such as we're in these days. And God knows what's happening in the Middle East, what's happening in Ukraine, what's going on with the Uyghurs all over the world. You look to your elected leaders for leadership here, don't you? I mean, that's where you want everybody to say not ignore this, but let's calm down and let's let's talk about this. Instead, you've got these two throwing greys at each other. And that's only going to inflame this whole discussion in the debate. It doesn't become a debate anymore. It becomes a matter of who's going to hate the other guy. Yeah, and that's what just was so discouraging about how this all played out over the last few days. And like I said, Bill, I participated the other day in a bridging group that brought people of all faiths in my community of wealth together to have some real heartfelt conversations about how we support each other, regardless of our religious, ethnic background. And I think that's what we need in Ontario right now, because I really am alarmed by the rising reports of anti-Semitism and Islamophobia we're seeing in the province right now. More to come on this, I'm sure, over the days and weeks ahead. Mike, as always, a pleasure to have you on the program. Thanks so much for being part of the podcast today. Yeah, my pleasure, Bill. Any time. Take care. Mike Schreiner, of course, MPP for Guelph and the leader of the Ontario Green Party. And that's it for this edition of the Bill Kelly podcast. Thanks for listening. And by the way, thank you for subscribing to that number growing daily. And that's great to see. 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