lydia

Rwy'n gobeithio y byddwn yn gweithio'n fawr iawn, ond rwy'n gobeithio y byddwn yn gweithio'n fawr iawn, ond rwy'n gobeithio y byddwn yn gweithio'n fawr iawn, ond rwy'n gobeithio y byddwn yn gweithio'n fawr iawn, ond rwy'n gobeithio y byddwn yn gweithio'n fawr iawn, ond rwy'n gobeithio y byddwn yn gweithio'n fawr iawn, ond rwy'n gobeithio y byddwn yn gweithio'n fawr iawn, ond rwy'n gobeithio y byddwn yn gweithio'n fawr iawn, ond rwy'n gobeith gobeithio y byddwn yn gweithio'n fawr iawn, ond rwy'n gobeithio y byddwn yn gweithio'n fawr iawn, ond rwy'n gobeithio y byddwn yn gweithio'n fawr iawn, ond rwy'n gobeithio y byddwn yn gweithio'n fawr iawn, ond rwy'n gobeithio y byddwn yn gweithio'n fawr iawn, ond rwy'n gobeithio y byddwn yn gweithio'n fawr iawn, ond rwy'n gobeithio y byddwn yn gweithio'n fawr iawn, ond rwy'n gobeithio y byddwn yn gweithio'n fawr iawn, ond rwy'n gobeithio y byddwn yn gweithio'n fawr iawn, ond rwy'n gobeithio y byddwn yn gweithio'n fawr iawn, ond rwy'n gobeithio y byddwn yn gweithio'n fawr iawn, ond rwy'n gobeithio y byddwn yn gweithio'n fawr iawn, ond rwy'n gobeithio y byddwn yn gweithio'n fawr iawn, ond rwy'n gobeithio y byddwn yn gweithio'n fawr iawn, ond rwy'n gobeithio y byddwn yn gweithio'n fawr iawn, ond rwy'n gobeithio y byddwn yn gweithio'n fawr iawn, ond rwy'n gobeithio y byddwn yn gweithio'n fawr iawn, ond rwy'n gobeithio y byddwn yn gweithio'n fawr iawn, ond rwy'n gobeithio y byddwn yn gweithio'n fawr iawn, ond rwy'n gobeithio y byddwn yn gweithio'n fawr iawn, ond rwy'n gobeithio y byddwn yn gweithio'n fawr iawn, ond rwy'n gobeithio y byddwn yn gweithio'n fawr iawn, ond rwy'n gobeithio y byddwn yn gweithio'n fawr iawn, ond rwy'n gobeithio y byddwn yn gweithio'n fawr iawn, ond rwy'n gobeithio y byddwn yn gweith Hello. How are you? I'm doing really well, Lydia. How are you? I'm good. I'm glad that we are finally able to do this. Thank you. Me too. I'm excited. I love podcasts because I learned selfishly. I just learned a lot from people, so I love doing this. So I was hoping that you would just share a little bit about whatever you're comfortable sharing about your adoption story, whatever that looks like for you, and then I was hoping I could ask you the questions that I get asked a lot by families so that I can then say, go listen to Lydia's episode. She'll talk to you about it. So tell me about your adoption story. Yeah. So I'm an adult transracial adoptee. So if anyone doesn't know, transracial is when a child is adopted by a family of a different race. So for me and for a lot of transracial adoptees that advocate, we are people of color and have white parents. So I was adopted by my parents in the first year of my life. I was placed with them at four months old. I was born in Detroit and was raised in a small town about an hour north. I am one of four of their kids. We are all adopted. None of us are biologically related. My older brother is white and then my two younger siblings are black as well. So I'm kind of in the middle. We always say that my siblings were like twins because I was 13 months apart. So my older brother, me, and some of my relatives are definitely middle child. And then the siblings that were just like the babies, the twins, they went everywhere together. So I grew up there. My dad had lived there since I think middle school or high school. So my family was very involved in the community. My grandpa was a pastor there. And I grew up in the church that he was the original pastor of. Went to church where my grandma played the organ. My mom was in the choir. So we had a big family that I was surrounded by. But my parents always said from a young age that I would talk about the differences in my skin color from their skin color. Definitely something that we talked about was celebrated. But it was really hard trying to navigate being black and being in all these white spaces. Now my parents did have some bits of racial mirrors that I received from myself in these communities. And I'm sure we'll get more into that. But yeah, so I think just growing up and navigating life. Definitely in racial isolation around many people that looked like me. And just trying to like navigate not only my adoption but the added complexities of my transracial adoption. I had a close adoption so I didn't have any information regarding my birth family. Besides just like, you know, very basic information. So yeah, that's just a little bit about me. Any contact now with birth family? Have you looked? Is that something you want to do? It's definitely something that I'm open to. I often feel as though people have romanticized reunions. And if you talk to a lot of adoptees that are in the union, it's really complex, right? Whether that be birth mom who hasn't worked through her shame or guilt of placing her child. Or, you know, still working through whatever generational curses may have led to her placing. It's really difficult. And while these individuals are in our blood, they're still strangers to a degree. And so for me, it's really important to be emotionally and mentally prepared for maybe my own. I'm interested in having a relationship. And, you know, there are a lot of times that I've experienced secondary rejection. And just making sure that I'm equipped to not spiral, not, you know, go into a deep depression and whatever that looks like. And so that's still something I'm definitely working through and something that I'm really open to in the future. But right now, I feel like I'm not so happy for all the things in life. Yeah. If you don't mind answering this, and it's your sibling story, so if that's what it is. Have your siblings looked for biological family? Have they found it? How do you balance sort of them having their own experiences with adoption and you having your own experience and being siblings? What did that look like for you? I think that's something that a lot of adoptive parents aren't prepared for or not something that's discussed a lot. You can raise four children in the same home and they have very different experiences. So I believe that my feelings regarding my adoption are probably different than most from my siblings. As far as just, you know, feeling that adoption is trauma, you know, having these desires to kind of search and have answers where they're not really in that place. My siblings are also younger, you know, they're younger adults, 20 and 21. So, you know, at that age, I'm still navigating life in general and maybe something that they are interested in exploring more in the future. And I let them know I'm definitely willing to help them through that process. But, yeah, you know, I speak about it a lot. You know, I said I love my parents, but here are the ways they fell short. And that's not really the way it is. They may get it some day. They may never talk about it. And I think that's just part of understanding the different dynamics and the different experiences of adoptive children. I think that comes up a lot in conversations with just anybody around adoption, that idea that it's not the same thing for everyone. And there's lots of variables that influence why it looks differently. And I think some of that is very basically who the person is, like your temperament, the way that your brain works, the way that your personality is. I imagine that plays a huge part in how you respond to, I think in general, respond to trauma. And then how you respond to this experience of being adopted through the lifetime. Because I think that's also a layer that it's not the same, right? What you thought when you were 5 versus 15 versus now is probably, you know, evolving as you evolve. Exactly. Yeah. Some of it, you know, it's hard because some of the things, the way I am, I'm like, these are definitely things that are related to my adoption. And some of them, I'm like, it may just be who I am as a person, right? But I know being the middle child, I know being the oldest daughter in the family, the oldest black child. You know, even just as my parents, I put a lot of pressure on myself to show up in a way for my siblings in a nurturing way, in a protective way. And I navigated the world as a black woman in white spaces and wanting to protect them and prepare them in a way that I wasn't prepared. And so, yeah, I'm years older than them and I kind of feel mommy bearish about them in that way. And so, I guess I think that impacts the way our family dynamic is, the way I experience our childhood. And even how we both connect with each other now, we have a great relationship. But, you know, I don't know if I'm like the fun party sister. I'm more like the, okay, like, what are you doing with life, you know? And it's very caring and nurturing. So, always reminding them that they can present themselves the same way that their white friends can and trying to make sure that they are excelling in life. And making mistakes, but also knowing it can carry a lot more weight in them than some of their friends. Sure, yeah. Do you remember having like a first experience where you realized that? Because I hear that a lot, right, that being raised in a family where I think even though you had siblings who, you know, look like you at least in the same race, that there's this just sort of ignorance of what the reality is for you as a grownup going into the world. And I hear a lot of stories about that, that like stepping out of home for the first time or stepping out of home without your parents and having that first moment of like, okay, the world is not what I thought it was and it is different for me. Do you remember some of the first experiences of that? Yeah. I mean, I think as young as preschool when my mom, I mean, I had involved parents. So, you know, from a young age, kids were like, why is your mom white, right? You hear all the time, kids are colorblind. And I'm like, to a degree. Sure, maybe. Like, it didn't necessarily treat me differently in the same way that an adult would. But it was very obvious, right, that I had different skin color than my mom. And, you know, when we would color, they were comparing my skin to Luke's and not theirs, right? Even from one age there. And then I remember in third grade not being invited to a birthday party because only the pretty girls were, and my skin didn't make me pretty. And that was really hurtful, obviously, and it wasn't something that I felt comfortable sharing at that time. But, you know, those were definitely experiences that I had just in elementary school and before where I realized, hmm, people treat me differently. I didn't realize the harm or it wasn't necessarily a safety concern probably until middle school or high school. I remember being followed home by two or three guys in a car. And I was going to, like, a corner store, you know, like, to drink some chips and stuff. And they didn't work there, so I'm not sure what their reason was. I remember them following me and yelling out of the car. And then they zoomed ahead and parked in a driveway that I knew who lived there. It wasn't their home. And they got out and were recording me, so I just ran the other way. I don't know what the reason was. Yeah, that's scary. Yeah, it could have had nothing to do with me being Black. But I also just think also a lot of times children of color are viewed as older, right? So even when I was 12, 13, a lot of times people thought I was 16, 17, being, you know, comments of being well-developed, just being taller. You know, I'm 5'9 now. So, you know, just being the taller kid. I was 16 and was dropped from a job. I worked at Panera and just loved working there and spending my money. And there were multiple times where I was called in target by workers or asked to see my receipt. And, again, just scary moments of, like, I'm purchasing my things now. There were, you know, kids that I went to high school with that took a lot of pride in shoplifting from the same store that I was being stopped from and took pride in being able to spend my own money. And there definitely were moments when I was scared and felt like my safety could have been compromised if that person handled it wrong or if I did something that they didn't like and it kind of escalated. I think there are different conversations because when white people who are looking to adopt come to this space, it makes sense that they're kind of oblivious to a lot of the adoption stuff. Because a lot of that mainstream conversation about adoption looks like it's just not honest. A lot of it is real. It's very fairytale or catastrophic. You know, there's a lot of, like, the savior type narrative that's out there. So it always makes sense to me when families come and they just kind of don't quite get it yet. And we do spend a ton of time in home study just laying that foundation for competency about, you know, what is adoption? What's grief and loss? What's the trauma? So we talk about all that. But I feel like there's often an even bigger leap for white families coming to this space and saying, hey, I want to adopt and I'm open to adopting any child that needs us. It would be great. We would love any child. But the reality of what life becomes for that child is often very, it's oblivious. Like, a lot of people are very oblivious to these very real experiences. And then I think even as a white social worker, obviously, I struggle sometimes communicating that in a way that people understand. It's like there's these larger concepts that have to be, there has to be foundation there for someone to then be able to say, yes, I can see where for my daughter going to the store and being asked where her receipt is is offensive. And it's scary. Because as a white person, when does that happen to you? When you're setting off an alarm. But otherwise, probably not. But I feel like there's just so, it's just so hard sometimes to get people to see. And I know I'm not telling you anything new. But it's just, it's challenging them when it's that same person looking at me and saying, well, sure, I'm open to a child of any race. And it's that race. And it's that bridge of like, okay, I hear you. But it's different. Right? But the openness isn't it. That's just like love isn't everything. Right. And I think that that's often applauded, that families are open to having a child of any race. But to me, you know, I'm also a permanent student of African-Canadian culture. That's a big red flag to me because your desire for a child should not make you blind to their real, you know, lived experience. And so, you know, people always say, you know, love is colorblind. And I say it absolutely is not. And, you know, I ask a lot of my families, you know, those hard questions that I know that not all caseworkers are asking. Right? They're not requirements. And it's not to deter them. But it's to be honest about what it looks like. And there are children, you know, transracial children that go through their child-rearing years. And they have very depressing desires to want to be in a disability-affirming space. But when 18, 19, and they're grown up, they have these identity crises because they don't know who they are. They haven't been affirmed in their blackness or blackness. And they've just been the token black friend. And they have been seen as the exception, right, for realizing that your life is culturally complicated, not actually like black people, is earth-shattering to myself and other adoptees. And so, I know that agencies don't provide enough cultural competency training. And I hope that they continue to work with you and other adoptees to start implementing them. But to think that you can raise a child that doesn't get raised after a few hours of training is absolutely wild. But that's kind of what the agencies, you know, that's what they encourage, right? Like, you've done this training. It's almost like a badge of honor. Like, I've done this multicultural training or, you know, a hair training, and I am good to go. And that is fine. Yeah. I don't know if you're aware, but in Pennsylvania, there are no requirements for education for families. So, when I get a home study from, let's say, a family in Pennsylvania that I didn't do that says, yeah, would you, you know, take us on, help us find a match? And I ask to see their home study, and it says, yeah, they're approved to adopt transracially. And under education, there's nothing. There's nothing. So, they said, yeah, we're open to it. And the caseworker said, okay, great, and signed it. And that's the reality. And that's, I mean, how many are in our state that do these home studies that are probably doing that? So, like, it's disturbing. Oh, I see it. And, I mean, I know agencies because I've, you know, been a caseworker in Pennsylvania here now for several years that, you know, I know agencies where their training is cultural competency. It's not necessarily geared towards race. And I know some of those trainings are more focused around LGBTQ plus community, and that is great, too. That's very necessary. There are many adoptees and foster youth who are a part of that community. But that does not cover the race and ethnicity part either, right? We can't just lump that as cultural competency because there's so much more to it. So, I definitely understand that, and it's very concerning. It's very disappointing. Yeah. We need to have more protective factors in place for adoptees in general, and especially transracial adoptees. For sure, absolutely. One of the conversations that comes up, and it seems to be almost every family we have to have this conversation, and I'm curious what your take on this is, is there's inevitably this, you know, worksheet that a family does, and they're making selections for the type of child that they feel they're a good fit for. And in many ways, it's helpful, I think, especially regarding, like, medical needs because, you know, sometimes a family will say, yeah, we're open to a child who has special needs. And then when you say, like, okay, well, what about Down syndrome? And they're like, well, what is that? And you're like, okay, you can't say you're open to a child with this, you know, limiting and lifelong condition if you don't even know what it is, right? But I think that same mentality is what often shows up in the categories when you're asking about race. And someone will say, oh, we're open to all of these categories of race. And what I often find, and this is always like, so a family will say, we're open to a white child or basically white adjacent or a white child that's half something else, but only half. And when we start talking, it's very clearly colorism, and they don't recognize that that's what they're doing is they're basically saying, you know, I open my preferences so I can get matched faster. And the likelihood is my child will look white. And that's really, truly what they're hoping. But they don't, I think oftentimes families don't even realize that that's what they're doing. And there have been families where I then say, okay, let me explain this to you, what you're basically saying here. And they're like, oh, my God, I didn't even know I was doing. Oh, my God, why am I doing? You know, so like, I think a lot of it is literal ignorance to a lot of these concepts. So what's your experience with colorism? And my guess is growing up, seeing probably mostly white people, and then venturing out into the world, and then, you know, trying to figure out who you are as a black woman, that you had some experiences with this throughout your lifetime. Yeah, colorism, featurism, texturism is so real. And I noticed it from a young age, because one of my younger siblings is lighter complexion. They aren't biracial, but they have the most beautiful hazel eyes and lighter skin than me. And so I realized even when we would go out places, the fetishizing and just the way people were enamored with their lighter skin and their eyes compared to mine. And then growing up, that's when I started to admit that she is the kind of person that you would expect from also lighter people. And there's, you know, looser girls than me, and I also witnessed that with her. People just very, just always admiring her beauty and then not acknowledging me. And then, you know, if you become a high schooler and you like people, it's very, it was very apparent. When we would go places and guys would, you know, talk to her and not me. And so I think I was always aware of it from a personal standpoint. And as I got older, realizing it in all aspects of life, but specifically on adoption is extremely concerning. Like in, you know, any other space, it's just this idea that children who are born with lighter skin are more palatable for black and brown people. And wanting to have a child that looks closer to you in skin color or assuming the bad traits, maybe if they're lighter skin, is often what I see in those sorts of families. I will say very clearly that, you know, I don't want to pick a race, like, they're going to think I'm racist if I only put white. My process of cultural humility and understanding and being able to see what your limits are, what you're able to provide and what you're not. And so if you know that you can't provide for a child of color, then you need to say that, right? You need to let go of your ego, your pride. Think about your community. You know that you're going to have a child of a different color. And some people would say that, whether it's their parents, their grandparents in that community, they would not be that people would not be accepted. And I think that's really important because ultimately our goal is to minimize harm and trauma caused to children in care. And so if you know that you may not be able to do it, there's a high chance that you're going to be subject to discrimination, which is inherently going to cause trauma to your child. And so parents need to be able to have some self-believement as to what their limits are for a child, in the same way that we can understand. So I think there's a difference, too, in how families should be considering this because there's a difference between, yes, I acknowledge my family is racist. Perhaps they have heard things or seen things and they can straight away say, yeah, I know this person has a problem and would have a problem, versus the language you used of affirming. Tell me what your perception of the difference would be. Well, affirming would be not being colorblind, not seeing this child as an exception to their race, so not the fact that just because they were raised in close proximity to white people that they're better, they're more educated, articulate. And a lot of it is just understanding microaggressions, too, right? Like just because Grandpa isn't saying the N-word or using racial slurs doesn't mean he's not racist, right? And so this is why it's so important for families to be willing to really be committed to doing anti-racist work and to understand what it looks like and what the rights and rights are. Because I talk to families all the time about if you were to have another race and you know your family is racist, are you willing to separate yourself and create affirmative action for your child that's not going to get between that person? Because I often see kind of families saying, you know, I know my grandson is racist, how could he not love this black baby? And my thought is exactly like that. I love that black baby. Super simple. Yeah. It really is that simple. So you are unnecessarily exposing this child to someone who hates them and hates people that look like them to try and prove a point that does not need to be proven. At all. That is not, you are just exposing your child to harm to try and convince someone. And that person may accept that child and just view them as the exception to their race. They may not. Yeah. The likelihood of this person having a 180 transformation and just fully transform into this child is limitless. And it is not a problem to figure out if that will happen or not. No. Right. Yeah. Exactly. I think there's also in some of your social media posts there was some language about how like you're creating spaces where this child is seeing themselves in other people. So for me that looks like, you know, seeking out a pediatrician or going to a grocery store or the library that you choose or just making very intentional choices about the circle that you put your family in that might not be the circle that you live in right now. But it has to be the circle if you're raising children who don't look like you. And I think sometimes I've seen on your socials where there's just language about their simple interaction isn't enough. Like it can't be that, you know, the person that walks by your house every day might look like your child. Like that's great. But meaningful interaction is different than just being in proximity. So can you talk a little bit more about what maybe meaningful interaction could look like for families who are trying to create that? Of course. Yeah. So we talk about a lot of times in adoption it's called a racial mirror. So obviously someone who mirrors, you know, your complexity, your race, your ethnicity. And so, of course, it's amazing to have, and I think parents still should have, you know, a doctor that looks like their child and, you know, their hairstylist take them to a black barbershop or salon. Because it's important to be in those communities that you would be if you were in a black home. But we can't act like a doctor who we know sees you for 15 minutes or giving a haircut for 20 minutes is building intentional and meaningful relationships with your child. And I think it's really important that parents do this work more before accepting it as a child. Because we all want these relationships to be interactional. A black child is your partner. And now you're just using yourself as resources, cloaked as friendship. Right? But, like, friendship is, it's a two-way street. So you're just using it to help you with your child's care or teach them about blackness. You're having a transactional relationship. And you're, you know, so it's important that you're really immersing yourself. You want to create a community. And that can look like anything. It can be going to a lot of different cultural centers. It can be, you know, for us, in the white space, there's the color as an alternative. Right? So it may not be your town. You may have to drive for 20 or 30 minutes. But in the same way you would drive, like, 20, 30 minutes for a medical specialist. Or if they, you know, had a higher need. You would definitely do that. No questions asked. And so that is the commitment of being a transracial family. Right? It's not just about being placed in your home. It's about assimilating to your family's environment. It's a transition to the land where we can be multicultural and multiracial families. And so I always encourage you to create these friendships and relationships with people. You can meet them and they're just a part of your village like no one else. And so that's kind of what I mean by intentional meaningful relationships. Because a lot of times people have, like, their mom and their friend who's the aunt. Or, you know, just a long-time family friend. And they could have been a friend of someone that you can find and know that you could go to. And so transracial families deserve that. To have someone that can help them navigate racism that inevitably will happen. So also people in their life can show them the beauty of being a person of color. And hopefully bring them into the family about some of the traditions of their culture of origin. I know my parents did it a little bit. I would say the mirror part, not necessarily the intentional relationship. But they enrolled me in a black-owned studio where I was able to see other brown children like me. And it was a 30-minute drive. And we did it for nine years. We went back and forth anywhere from two to five times a week. And so that was a commitment that they made willingly to ensure that I saw other children that looked like me. And, you know, that has turned life into a life of friendship. My best friend is going to be one of my bridesmaids. I met at dance. And so, you know, again, being in that space, making that commitment, naturally allows me to have meaningful relationships with people that look like me. Yeah. That is really important. Really important. And I do think that just thinking that that was a commitment they made for the duration of your interest in dance. Right. Which was long. Yeah. But then they saw how important that was for you. And obviously they saw then the relationship you were creating and how affirming they were for you. That there are other people that look like you. And you have friends that look like you. And that's great. That's, you know, that's especially I think for teenagers, that is probably a really important time to have people who get you on more than just like a level. Yeah. And honestly, that was a time that I didn't have it because I started dance at four. So by high school, I had stopped dancing at that studio and kind of had lost some of that connection just naturally. And so that was probably a hard time for me because there weren't a lot of other black kids at my school. And the ones that were there, I couldn't relate to in the same way they were from bigger cities. They had spent the majority of their life in, you know, cities like Detroit or New Orleans. And I'm like, I'm here in this small town where people are transferred to school. Like, I can't relate. You know, there can't be. It's important to start asking these possible questions because transracial adoptees often develop some racial imposter syndrome of feeling like imposters. Obviously in white spaces, it's not white. But often in spaces of our cultural origin as well, because we don't understand all the dynamics, we don't understand all the cultural references. We haven't been immersed in that. And so there can still be a disconnect there. And so I had some of it because I started so young. There was still, I was like, oh, I don't know all the songs or all the shows. And so I almost separated myself as a form of self-preservation so that I wouldn't be hurt by the people I wanted to be accepted by the most. And so I'm so thankful that my partner did enroll me so y'all would be able to know. And then we got to college. And the first thing I did was put my email on the black women's email list so that I could be notified of what else was going on. Like, I'm going to do this. It's going to be great. This is where I'm going to belong. And I had that confidence because it wasn't my first experience in a black space. And I was still working through the racial injustice. I knew, like, this is where I belong. Yeah, I hear that a lot. I mean, college is just crazy for everybody. Like, it's your first, like, oh, my gosh, where am I going to suffer for my family and my town and my friends? And it's weird for everybody. But I've heard that so many times from adopted people who choose to go to college. And it sounds like especially choose to go to a college that's not where they grew up, which I think there's a lot of value in that for people. Just, you know, getting into the world and seeing that there are lots of people of lots of different kinds. But I do hear that a lot, that that's really a huge moment of, okay, I can choose spaces now. Where I'm not the only one that looks like me. And that has to be just, like, so empowering to be able to do that. It does. And something that my mom said that was so healing that I was a little caught off guard was she said that she loved college for me because it was the first time I wasn't a black girl with white parents. It's my identity. Oh, I love that. It's the first time you have a clean slate. And not that I would necessarily say I was embarrassed or ashamed of my parents, but because they were so involved, I felt like people were always hyper-focused on what qualities and traits and interests I had were connected to whiteness or my white parents. Right? It's like, oh, you talk like a white person. And I'm like, I'm the only black person any of you have ever been exposed to. Like, what are you doing? Not even me. It's all media. It's all media. But it was just everyone was always so hyper-focused on me being white or me being ghetto or, you know, whatever it was, that it was just nice to just be. Yeah. Be able to show up as my most authentic self and figure out who my most authentic self was. And it was the most freeing and beautiful experience ever. I know a lot of adoptees have that and some are still what we call in the fog. So kind of just not fully able to express, articulate, and understand what adoption is, the trauma that we've experienced, kind of still have the rose-colored glasses on. So some adoptees are kind of still in that and maybe experience it later in life. And it's never too late to have that epiphany and, you know, immerse yourself in spaces. But for me, it was college. And, yeah, I went back to my college town this past weekend. So I'm, like, also in all the fields of getting to see my mentors. And they're like, oh, my gosh, you've grown so much. And, like, just these black women who, like, poured into me in a way that I had never been poured into in my entire life was the most just fulfilling, the most fulfilling four years of my life. Oh, I love that for you. That's amazing. Yeah. I also love that your mom, was she, like, a social worker? Like, did she have some background and understanding of these things? Or was that just, like, who she is? No, I think that's just who she is. My parents, I just realized how healthy and emotionally secure they are that a lot of adopted parents lack. Yeah. Just her understanding just in my advocacy work, you know, hearing my interviews and things like that. You know, of course, I'm raised like I love my parents. I don't want them to be disappointed or feel like I'm attacking them. And, you know, she just said there's so much more we could have done. Like, there was things we didn't know. You know, know better, do better. And they're still on the journey of becoming more culturally consistent. But, yeah, I think that's just who she is. I mean, she's a music teacher. Maybe just as an educator, she understands that we're ever evolving and ever learning. And, yeah, I think I've just been multiple times where I've just been, like, shocked at, like, oh, wow. Like, that was really emotionally much stronger than I've ever felt in my life. But most of all, I think that adoptees don't feel like they can share because they have been made responsible for their parents' feelings and their emotional well-being. I think I can be self-confident and open in sharing because I know they're not going to fall apart when I say. You know, this is something my parents fell short in because it's not a reflection of my love for them or something that they didn't want to do right by me. I think as a parent, it's, like, you become a parent and then I think you're very both more critical of your parents because you can see, like, well, how could they not have known that? Or why didn't they try something else? Or they could have done better. And I think generally when you're a grown-up, you can look back and kind of see your parents or just, you know, you get it. You get life a little differently. But I almost feel like that happens for adults, whether you have children or not. You just look at your parents differently. And I think then when you have kids, it's been this extra layer of, like, oh, OK, I get it now. I get why there were other things I didn't know at the time or, you know, whatnot. But I think for you and for people who are adopted, and this is my impression of it, you grow. You have this experience that is yours, right? Your parents weren't adopted people, so they didn't have this life. Then they weren't transracially adopted, so they didn't live that life either. So they don't have the wisdom of experience for you to say, well, you know, I know you knew this, but you didn't know this. So it's almost like you're walking this path of your life and then you're able to say, OK, here's what that looks like for me. The choices you made for me, this is what it looks like. And I think that in itself for some parents is extremely, it's like it's too much. Like, they can't even make space for the fact that their child is living a life that they designed for them in many ways and that they're going to have some feelings that might not be positive about what that looks like. But also, like, as a parent, you didn't have that life. So you can't really be like, oh, Lydia, your perception is so wrong. Right. Yeah, but it's so hard because adopters are put on such a pedestal. And, you know, like I said, my parents are, they don't, I don't say they feel any type of way. Like, I don't know, but they have never made me feel bad for sharing my story. But their family members have. Like, extended family members have very much been like, your parents gave you a head start in life. How dare you. Right. And adoptive parents have been put on a pedestal of, like, doing this noble act. Like, their spot in heaven is Seinfeld Delivered. And, you know, this is just the most selfless deed they could have done. And, you know, the narrative is that adoptees are indebted to our parents and that, you know, we need to give them the ground they walk on. And so, yeah, it can be difficult to share. It can be difficult to have open conversations with, you know, for adoptees to have with their adoptive parents when there is so much pride. And I think parents should be able to understand. But also being able to understand where you fall short. I say all the time because it's so interesting. I hear non-adoptive people talk about breaking generational curses. And it's essentially the same thing, talking about the way your parents fall short and how you fall short. And it's so interesting how me speaking about it or how other adoptive parents are doing better by their adoptees is so frowned upon. You hear this all the time. And it's applauded that people are doing better than their parents. And there's a lot of generational curses in adoption and how parents raise their children, even if it's not my bloodline. Doing it for younger generations of adoptees is so important to me. And so, you know, so many of the people that are in their 30s are not able to have any meaningful conversations with their parents because they are just not able to see the fact that they didn't do this amazing thing. And this amazing thing and how they have cared for their child that could have caused any sort of harm. Yeah. I'm like deep inside. I'm just like thinking about like the idea of like the generational thing and how, yeah, there is so much conversation now about that and how it's seen as such a positive thing. When you say, you know, the generations before me made some choices that were harmful or we lived experiences that really affected how people parented or just like, you know, some really difficult things families go through. And you're right. Yeah, proud. Good for you for seeing that and stopping that and talking about it and being aware enough to then say, I'm going to and actually changing your behavior so that, yeah, your children's experience is different. But you're right that the minute an adopted person says, yes, here's my take on that. It's like, how dare you? You should feel nothing except very grateful and very fortunate to be here. Like just sit down and be quiet. That's like the feedback. And even if people aren't saying it like that, it's the room gets cold, right? Like you feel it. You feel the. Yeah, it's very, it's very wild. But I think you're right. It comes from that place of people coming into this space feeling like I, well, it's either very selfish, right? It's like I want to be a parent. And for whatever reason, I can't. So I deserve this. I, you know, it's not fair. I'm owed this. I'm going to get what I want, that kind of thing. Or it's then also the other. And these are extremes, right? There's obviously like not everybody's that intense. And then the other extreme of it being like, oh, without me, this child would would have nothing and be nothing. And I'm going to I'm going to do it. I'm going to I'm going to give them life. Like, right. Yeah, it's definitely very extreme. And that continuum of extremes that people show up here. So it makes sense, then, that that person who is very like, oh, no, no, you're here because I brought you here is then the person that's like, how dare you say I did anything that had any negative impact on you at all? How dare you? Yeah, I can see where then a lot of adopted people would feel like I'm not allowed to say anything or, you know. But I think that's important to ask, then, because from what I know, just because you're not saying you have feelings about adoption that might not be positive doesn't mean that you're not feeling them right here. A lot of adopted parents say, well, well, of course, speaking for their children. But, you know, my child is this old and they've never said anything like this. So they're fine with it. Or, you know, my child is I once talked to a woman who had several children that she adopted internationally. And, you know, she was praising how well they were doing and how happy they were and how successful and how adoption, you know, they'd never think adoption had any impact on them. And I kind of was like, I don't know if that's accurate. You know, you should ask them. And she was very angry at the idea that her children could have real feelings. So tell me your thoughts. Well, yeah. And I always say that I'm that kid, right? Like it's always the well-adjusted kid, right? So we think about the kids who don't have behavioral issues or, you know, aren't having mental health issues, whatever it is, as the well-adjusted children. And we know in terms of adoption inherently we experience grief, right? Like there is a separation. So I always tell parents when they say, when should I start my kid in therapy, like my adopting therapy? And I'm like, if you're asking their problems, it's time, right? Because we know the trauma, the loss. So we don't need to wait for behavioral challenges. We don't need to wait until a mental health crisis because I think it's too late, right? So let's be proactive and reactive. So a lot of times families are waiting for that. Sometimes it doesn't come. Like me, it didn't come. I was the energetic, outgoing kid. I was president of my class all four years of high school. I was on homecoming court. I was in marching band. I did dance for 14 years, right? Everyone was like, you all the time. You have made so much of yourself. Like you are so well-adjusted, right? No one would have ever known. And then I get to college, and then I graduate college, and I teach this kid. And everyone's like, but you were on homecoming court. Like people were like, my cousin literally said you were on homecoming court. And I was like, what does that have to do with anything in life? Like one day means I didn't have a lifelong of trauma? Really? Yeah. Yeah. Wow. People were so caught off guard and just perplexed that I had faced any adversity or I had any negative feelings. And I'm like, I went to college and was like in counseling. Counseling was trauma. We know that adults are four times more likely to die by suicide. And so I'm like, of course I have these feelings because I never showed them. People did not believe me whatsoever. But I also think I didn't have the ability to even share anything I wanted to, again, because these feelings of regret were so heavily on me. I didn't have this, and not even necessarily by me, just by the community that I was in. Your parents are so amazing. They did this amazing thing. They did this amazing thing. They did this amazing thing. They did this amazing thing. 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They did this amazing thing. They did this amazing thing. They did this amazing thing. They did this amazing thing. They did this amazing thing. They did this amazing thing. They did this amazing thing. They did this amazing thing. They did this amazing thing. They did this amazing thing. I don't know where I learned that I shouldn't share my, not even negative, but just not positive feelings of adoption. But I just knew from a young age that that was not something that should be shared. Yeah. Even though I didn't necessarily believe it, I definitely took on the, like, this is happy. This is the best thing that could have happened to me. Yeah. Yeah. You mentioned that you're getting that message. And it's not like your memory is that your mom or dad explicitly said, no, Lydia, we don't talk about that. But you still got that message. And, I mean, it sounds like your home was relatively happy and you have lots of opportunity. And so it's not like you were in a really toxic space where you were getting messages regularly that your feelings didn't matter. So we have to then think, where were you getting those messages? And you were. Wherever that was, you were. Right. And I mean, I didn't grow up in a home where we talked about feelings in general at all. Right? It's not like you came home to school and it was like, how was your day? But it's not like, how are you feeling? Right? It wasn't, you know, what made you happy today? What made you sad today? Like, we didn't talk about feelings. And so even now, as an adult, it's hard for me to articulate feelings, how I feel about things, especially when it's negative or I'm upset. I struggle to say, I'm having a bad day. Or, this hurt me when you did this. Yeah. Like you said, I'm not sure exactly where I got it or if it was, you know, an overt message that was given to me. But I definitely knew that it was just those kinds of things we talked about. Yeah. So I'm thinking about how at just emotional intelligence, when people ask me as a social worker, like, what are the things that I prioritize with my children and things that I think we should have learned in school that we didn't? It's that. Because I think just our generation, everybody says that. That they're like, yeah, I had a great loving home. My family was, you know, peaceful. And we had all the things that you wish for. But I can't express my feelings. Or, you know, I don't know how to say when I'm upset about something. Or I don't know that I have space to feel these things. That's like, I feel like so many people feel like we have no emotional intelligence. And I think that starts with your family. Right. You know, and that's really huge. I'm also just like, just this idea that nobody asked you your feelings, but you still had them. And lots of people will then say, well, if somebody asked you how you were feeling, and you said you felt bad, and they asked for more information, are they causing grief someplace where it wasn't before? You know, that like, if I bring up this adoption and ask her questions, it's going to trigger this emotional response for her. And I don't want to create a problem for her. But it feels to me like that grief and thought and sadness is there all the time. And so me asking isn't necessarily like making you have grief. It's just giving you a space to share it. But I think that's also why people seem to be very reserved about asking other people about hard things, big things, bad things, especially adoption. And this is the same type of thing that comes up for birth parents. Like, if I mention their child, they're going to freak out. And it's going to be my fault that they're now all, you know, dysregulated. But that's those thoughts. She had those thoughts. Those thoughts were there. Those are feelings that people carry with them. But I think that's sort of a barrier I've noticed. Yeah. I think it does matter who's asking. I think a lot of times people who should not have been asking intrusive questions or people who should not have been asking about my adoption did, and it felt intrusive. Right? For sure. Yeah. Obviously, parents should be asking. Or, you know, if there's a close family friend that seems, you know, maybe closer to the child, then that's totally okay. But, you know, I think a lot of times, like, people in our church or just, like, neighbors who we weren't necessarily close with would ask, and it felt intrusive. But I think if anyone asked, I probably would have cried, and not because they were inducing any sort of trauma, but because it would just be, like, a volcano explosion of, like, feelings. Yeah. They were, like, shoved in there. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I mean, I definitely think you can read the situation. I think we just need to be better at asking vulnerable questions. Like, it's helpful to talk about this. Do you feel better? And, like, asking that to know, because maybe it does make them feel better to cry and have someone talk about it. Maybe it doesn't. And so then, as a parent or a professional, you're like, okay, maybe this needs to be had in a therapeutic setting so that we can learn also how to help them regulate their emotions and use coping techniques so that we're not triggering them into a crisis. Right? Yeah. Yeah. So, that's really important. But I think for a lot of adoptees, they would be open to having those conversations. And I even know, for me, I was two months into being a permanent teen adoption counselor. And I was working with this child who had been in child support for years. And I said, well, what's it like to be black in a white home? And they were like, I said, I asked them. And they thought and said, I don't even know. No one's ever asked me that. So, I'm thinking of a kid that's been in care for years, multiple professionals. And no one thought to ask, to me, a pretty apparent question. But to a lot of people, was an uncomfortable question. Yep. And that question opened up a lot of barriers to the family, to the child talking, sharing things. We ended up cooking a meal that they loved growing up. And I taught the mom how to make collard greens. Right? So, it was like it opens up this conversation and this ability for this child not to feel like their birth family being replaced, but for them to allow their foster family to experience something that was of value to them. And if I wouldn't have just asked that question, it never would have been brought up. And everyone else was too scared to ask the question. And if this child would have grown apart, it would have been horrible. I'm like, this child is black in a white home. You know Pennsylvania? It's like unless you're in like Philly, it's warm. It's rural. Right. This child is growing up in a very different place than the urban setting they are used to. Why would no one think to ask that? Right? And so, I think even that was obviously very specific. But even in general, bringing that out, the bigger picture of asking like, how do you feel about adoption? Even asking, I do this with my friends now. I'm like, right now in this moment, do you want me to be comfortable or do you want feedback? Right? Like, do you want a response? Yes. I hate when I just want someone to say, that sucks. And they're like, you should do this, this, this. Like, you're like, no, I should have said nothing to you. Right? Yes. How can I show up for you to anyone? That is important. Yeah. And that's a therapeutic technique that I think now having been through social work programs, like, we've heard these things. Right? And this was novel to me when I first heard it, too. That that's probably why when you're asking people questions and you're getting a response that you're like, ah, I was just trying to be helpful. That didn't go well. It's because you were doing the opposite. Right? The person needed the, yeah, well, sorry, that's happening. And you gave, let's fix it. But if you don't know there's a difference, you wouldn't know to tailor what you're asking or ask the person. Yeah. Heard your story. How can I help? And I think those are things in social work that we're taught goes along with that emotional intelligence that adults should know. Right? Like, I feel like as an adult, we should have known this long before we knew it. Super helpful. And I think asking things like, I don't understand, tell me more. Because I think a lot of people are like, I don't know how to ask these questions. Or I want to be offensive. Or, you know, how do you even bring this up? And, like, you just ask. You're a person wanting to know about another person in a positive way. You're not trying to harm them. You're not trying to get information. You're just, it's a benign, I want to know who you are, let's connect. And I think there's, like, when you're coming at it from that perspective, like, I care about who you are as a human and I want to know you, asking tell me more about that is sometimes all you need to say. And it's shocking that no one had the thought for that child to say, how is that for you? Right. Like, this is very different than where you grew up. What is this like? And that wasn't, you know, that's all it took. And maybe it would have taken more, and that's okay, too. But even the fact that I thought to ask that, I shouldn't have meant a lot more to that child than anyone would have thought, even I would have thought. You know, to me, I'm, like, new. I'm, like, developed in my whole transracial identity. I'm a trans caseworker. And I'm, like, I grew up black in a white family. Like, you, you're here. What's going on? Right? But, like, so many people, like, we can't ask that. And I think some of the caseworkers thought, like, well, we can't change it. Like, there wasn't a place in the home. And I understood that. But not asking it, you weren't providing the support that that child needed. Right? Because. Yeah. It wasn't a quick fix. But it was that child feeling seen and heard in a way they hadn't been. And so, in the same way, adopted parents need to be asking those questions. Right? I know I probably said some hurtful things to my parents because I did wish I had a black family. But I didn't. But there were other ways that they were able to give me spaces that were affirming with other black people. Right? So, asking those questions, figuring it out. Right? My passion was dance. So, they found a black dance studio. Whatever that is for your child is important. Yeah. And on the flip side, I've had parents talk to me and say, well, your sister's not interested in that. Or, you know, that's not really cool. And, again, it goes back to that racial imposter syndrome. Right? Like, they've never been in that space. That's a little scary. You're not sure how to interact. Well, I always encourage parents, even if a child's saying, in the same way, they're like, I don't care about being adopted. Like, this is the best. It's just in for the, you know, culturally affirming things. So, I'm like, I'm good. I don't need that. I don't like that. So, I would encourage it. That's interesting. Yeah. And don't leave it. Right? Mm-hmm. Like, again, what you said at 10 is probably not what you said at 12 and not what you said at. Exactly. So, they have to keep that. And, again, because I say that adoptees are so, like, intuitive and feeling like we have to kind of prioritize our family's emotional well-being, we often make decisions that we feel like are going to be best or that we think that our parents want us to make. Right? So, like, ooh, would my parents be comfortable in that space? Or make it sound like it's such an inconvenience. Like, I don't want to inconvenience my parents. Like, no, I don't want to go. Right? And so, encouraging it because it's right. And, again, like you said, like, in their development, it's going to be a great experience for them. It's so important. I've heard a lot of adoptees use that word to describe themselves and other adoptees they know as people's pleasers. And I think that's really important to know that we generally see that as, like, a positive quality because that means you're easy and you're quiet and you're, you know, like the go-along-with-everything kind of person. But it's not when it's being used as a coping mechanism for something else that's going on. Right. Exactly. Yeah. So, one of the things you said recently was on your socials was about that language we hear a lot about adoptive parents telling their child that adoption was chosen for them because of love, because their parents love them so much. Tell me more about what your feelings are around that language that birth parents choose adoption for their children because they love them and why that might not be something we should keep saying. Yeah. It makes adoptees connect love and leaving. And people don't leave because they love us. And so, I always tell families that if you know the reason for your child being placed, find an age developmentally appropriate way to tell them why. If you don't know, to be honest, instead of just saying, oh, your mom loves you so much, she placed you for adoption. Because to me, when I heard that, I thought, well, we're going to choose to say that my adoptive parents don't love me enough to place me. Right. And so, it's always living in the fear of someone leaving. And the people who are closest to you are going to be constantly left when they're leaving. Right. And so, that's why I always tell families that we really want to be careful of your language because you don't know what's fitting within adoption. And maybe it was just over in the adoptee's head and, you know, they wouldn't think anything of that. But for me, it was really important for me to say that and cause them to feel good. Too often, we just want to wrap adoption in a pretty bow. Right. This was, you know, what was meant for you. And so, adoption happens because of the growth in the community world and because of stigma and because of gender dysphoria. It's not from beauty. Right. And so, it's just so harmful when parents leave. There are appropriate ways to tell young children. And so, we're not causing harm off of lies or off of past truths. Yeah. You made a good point that it's easy for families to say, you know, I'm not going to do this. I'm not going to do this. I'm not going to do this. I'm not going to do this. I'm not going to do this. I'm not going to do this. I'm not going to do this. I'm not going to do this. I'm not going to do this. I'm not going to do this. I'm not going to do this. I'm not going to do this. I'm not going to do this. I'm not going to do this. I'm not going to do this. I'm not going to do this. I'm not going to do this. I'm not going to do this. I'm not going to do this. I'm not going to do this. It's easy for families to say, I know the truth about what happened, or they think they do. I mean, I think there's a lot of storytelling around placement sometimes that we don't actually know what the facts were. Right. And I think sometimes there's even some really terrible things that are said around why the placement occurred that end up not being facts at all. So I think we have to be careful in general about what we, if we're not hearing it directly from a birth parent and have context with that, we probably shouldn't be relaying that to children as their facts. Absolutely. But I think that's hard for families because they want the tidy package to say, again, I don't want to hurt my child. I don't want them to hear something hard. So I'm just going to tell them that it was love and that seems magical and that's great. But that, that, I think for people, it might be hard to hear what they're saying as a lie. I want to say that presentation, that kind of reduction of something to something so simplistic does cause harm because it then creates space where a person is going to create their own stories in these spaces or infer their own things about what you're saying. Exactly. And the opposite being like the truth might actually be hard and it might actually be something very painful, but that's the truth. And if you're clouding or distorting that to make you feel better or to make your child feel better long-term, that, that distortion actually is worse than just saying in an age-appropriate way, here's what we know is fact or I don't have all the facts, so I can't, I don't know. Exactly. And again, one, I think everyone should be in therapy, but especially adoptees, because again, we know that they've already experienced that trauma, utilizing these therapeutic spaces of like, my child is asking me questions, I'm not sure how to navigate it, can you help me? How can we go through this? Let's navigate this in a way that will be healthy for them, but again, honest. And so, or post-adoption services, right? I think families aren't utilizing services enough and they're like, we got this, we have it all handled, and it's okay to say you don't, right? That's why we love post-adoption services, that's why there's therapy to help you navigate. You know, it's your first time being a parent, it's your first time being an adoptive parent, and there's things that you're not expected to know exactly how to handle perfectly, but again, our objective is obviously to cause the least amount of harm to a child. And so, part of that is being honest and finding ways to have these healthy conversations. Yeah. So, I would love if you would share something about your experience and where you're at now, because as we've talked about, kind of these feelings about things and how we understand things about ourselves and our lives and our experiences, that all changes over time. Not necessarily gets better, sometimes it gets harder, but for where you're at right now in your life, relative to your identity as an adoptive person, what about that seems to be most impacted in your life? Like, where are you seeing your adoptive identity feel most significant now, at this stage in your life? Yeah. I would say milestones are always happening for me, so later this year, I get married, and then the following year, like the following summer, I think I'll graduate with my master's. And so, I always, milestones are hard because I just, you know, I wish I had my family, my first family in my life, and so I definitely feel the impact there. I think, as I'm getting married, and, you know, thinking about maybe having a family one day, and if I'm blessed to have biological children, knowing that they may be the first biological member that I meet, is devastating, and again, like I said, I feel like I need to, not emotionally and mentally healthy, but I don't want to rush it, but at the same time, my mom was not ready for that, and so I'm like, this woman is getting older, and I'm just, I promise, tomorrow, like, part of me is like, just do it, and you can maybe get some questions answered, like, what if she passes before I, you know, have the chance to know anything? And so, I feel like I'm having this heaviness of like, wanting to pursue that in my daily life, but also living with so much gratitude, and I don't, I use that word intentionally, but this is a team, because again, I feel like adoptees are often made to feel grateful for our adoption experience, but I feel like through my healing, I've just gained an understanding for my birth mother, and just, even though I don't know all that much about her place in me, knowing that that wasn't an easy decision, and having grace for her, and having grace for my adoption experience, and their journey to raising black children, and then grace for myself, as I'm, you know, developing in my racial identity, and sometimes it is so hard, right, marrying a black man, I'm like, there's so much that he'll just say, and I'm like, no, I don't know that, and it's just because I was adopted by a white family, right, but having grace for myself, that like, there's nothing I need to catch up to, there's nothing I need to prove, because I am black, and so yeah, I definitely feel it in the impact of being adopted, specifically transracially adopted, daily, honestly. Yeah, yeah, that's really important to hear, I think that's really important to hear, I think it's easy to think of adoption as a moment in time, I think for many people who are adopting, they see it like a task that they're doing, and then when that's done, they have a family, and life goes on, and I think it's really important to hear your words in saying that it is that, but it's also a life, and it does matter daily, it's good to hear, so I'm glad you were able to put it in those words, I think those will land with that like, pow for people when they hear it. I am so appreciative of you for trusting me and sharing a space with me, I think it's, as an adoption professional, I know that there are a lot of people in this space that are um, really making it hard for adopted people to exist, I think, I see a lot of the things that happen around me, and the language, and the choices professionals make, and it's, it's hard to exist in that space knowing, like as a social worker, knowing that there are people on the other end of this, like yourself, who are literally impacted for a lifetime by the choices that I help a person make, that's like, that's huge, that's crazy, and it matters so much, and it's, it's a strange space to work in, and I'm sure you find it's a strange space to be in as well. It is, absolutely, absolutely. There's a lot of scary things that happen in this field, you know, that are just, I think there's a lot of change that needs to happen in this space to protect people, so I, I know that generally that, you know, adoption professional title is, um, usually not a welcoming one, so I'm grateful that you were open to talking to me, and again, for sharing space with me, and being open, and I really enjoyed hearing your perspective, and I learned a lot, and there's going to be things that I'm like mulling over now for like days. Yes, this is great. Yes, I love it. Well, thank you for having me. I, I love being able to share my experience, but also just, um, again, having these open, honest conversations, I think vulnerability is hard, especially in adoption, and so I think, I hope this is an invitation for adoptive parents, prospective adoptive parents to have these sorts of vulnerable conversations with each other, with their family members, with their adoptees, um, and anyone that they consider a part of their community.