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This is a detailed conversation about the individual's training experiences at RIDAP. They discuss specific classes they attended, such as a bridge inspection class and an advanced Excel class, highlighting the hands-on learning and practical application in the bridge inspection class. They also mention the importance of communication classes in improving their performance at work. Technical classes like obtaining a PE and PMP certification directly helped advance their position at RIDAP. Soft skills training, particularly in communication, has also significantly impacted their effectiveness in their role. Well, thank you again for meeting with me. We're going to start with the questions, and I'm going to ask everyone all the same questions for consistency. Okay. And I might ask some follow-ups for you. So, what is your current role at RIDAP? I am a managing engineer in the Oversized Overweight Permanent Office. How long have you worked at RIDAP? A little over 15 years. Okay. And have you attended at least two trainings at RIDAP? Yes. During your time. I sure hope so, during my time. Quite a few. Okay. Please describe your experience with training at RIDAP. In general, trainings generally well run, pretty good versus bad depends on the class and the teacher and that type of stuff, but I've had a lot of great classes through RIDAP over the years. That really depends on the content and the teacher, I would say, more than anything, but the locations are always good, they're always managed well, that type of stuff. Okay. Tell me about the last two trainings you attended. I have no idea what the last two trainings I attended were. It's been a little while because I've been on my incentive credit for a couple of years. I can look, so let's see if I can look. Or you could just tell me about two trainings you attended, you could pick. That would be easier. Sure. So we did the bridge inspection class, I think that was last year, and that was a two-week class with a couple of days in the field. It was a major test at the end. That was an awesome class. It was really informative. It was long days, so it was full days, longer than my regular work day, but it was informative. Overall, the teachers were awesome, the class was good. I enjoyed it a lot, learned a lot, passed the class, got the certification. So that's probably the longest class I've ever taken, but it was an excellent class overall. And one other one, let's pick something a little simpler. Oh, another good class I did a while ago was an advanced Microsoft Excel class, which was something different. It was an incentive credit, but it was a shorter class, I think it was like half days for two or three weeks in a row. But again, it was a little bit more bland on the topics, but it was a good teacher, it was run well, it was managed well. Everything went great in the class, and I learned a lot. I learned a lot. So generally, all my classes have been good experiences. Good. Can you tell me a little bit more about those two classes, about what about them that you found was either memorable or why you say you said that they were good classes? I'm trying to understand why they were good classes. What about them? Why? Sure. So we'll start with the Bridge Inspection class first. I think a key thing for me when I say a class is good or bad is how relative it is to my job. So it's very subjective, obviously, because there could be some really good classes, but if they don't pertain to me at all, I find it more boring. I'm going to think it's not as excellent of a class. But the Bridge Inspection class, there was excellent instructors. They were very knowledgeable. The way the class was handled from their end was a lot of back and forth, a lot of question and answer, a lot of getting us involved and interactive. And then the last few days, we went and applied everything we learned in the classroom in the field and actually inspected a couple of bridges and put to use everything we learned, which was huge. And, you know, kind of tying that hands-on piece to the classroom work was a great part of it. What else about that? Is there anything memorable about the class besides what you just stated? Yeah, going out in the field and actually looking at the bridges was great because I've never actually done a real bridge inspection. So we went out in the field and literally did the inspection, put the numbers down, and came up with a rating. So we did what the whole class was based about, and that part of it really stuck with me because it tied it all together. And the instructors were really good. They were both nice, funny guys, you know, easy to work with. So I remember the instructors really well in that one. Great. The Excel class, that was a little while ago, but I remember specifically that I learned a lot. That's why I liked that class because I've been using Excel my whole life, you know, since we had computers back in high school. And I learned for a short class, I learned a ton about Excel that I did not know, and I've been able to maintain a lot of that or at least remember the functions are there, you know, and figure out how to use them again. So, yeah, the key to that one was it was a boring class. I remember that. But I enjoyed it. I mean, the subject matter is just bland. But I enjoyed it because I learned a lot about Excel, and that was the biggest takeaway for me, that it was a very useful class, something I was using all the time on my day-to-day work. What types of trainings have you found most effective for your learning style? That's a good one. I think I tend to learn best by a little bit of all the styles. I like to have things, like, told to me by the instructor and then reinforce that with kind of reading the subject matter myself and then applying it. And once I apply it through practice or through, you know, an interaction with a small group within the class, as awkward as those can be sometimes, I think that really hammers the point home, and that's where I really start to understand things long-term. It's when we, you know, they teach it, we look at it ourselves, and then actually applying it. So those three steps tend to be the best practice for me to hold on to knowledge. And I enjoy it not being just one, you know, someone talking to you all day long or someone just making you read and then taking tasks, you know. So mixing it up a little bit helps me. Has specific training helped you improve your performance or advance in your position at RIDOC? There's a few of them. I don't think anything is – well, the PE class that I took way back when I first started, a few years after I started, it wasn't a RIDOC class. It was just – I guess that wasn't a RIDOC class. That was funded by RIDOC, but it was outside of RIDOC. Was it School of PE? I believe so, yeah. Which RIDOC is now running, so the information you're giving is fantastic. That's good to know. That one, obviously, as a civil engineer, now a professional engineer, that had a direct impact on advancing my position at RIDOC. Same thing with the PMP class, which I think was the same situation. It was covered by RIDOC, but it was an outside company that ran it, I believe. That had a more indirect effect on helping me advance my position. Specific class that helped me in my performance, I would say it's more a genre of classes, and it's the communications classes of all different kinds, like, you know, how to communicate with difficult people, how to deal with conflict, how to deal with different personality styles. I've always kind of had a thing for the communications classes because I was never a good public speaker. You know, I was a typical engineer when I came out of college, and I could see that as a weak point with myself and a lot of people, and I started taking as many communications classes as I could, and let's just put it this way. Now, I do all of the customer service for Oversize Overweight Permanent, and people tend to think I do a really good job, and I enjoy, you know, helping people out, so I think those communications classes have gone a long way to help me do a better job at my job. Oh, interesting. Can you tell me a little bit more about that? Like, what about the classes? They helped me understand different personality styles, for one, to realizing that everyone's not, you know, they don't approach people, they don't react to things the same way I do, so that was a big one, understanding that there's different personality styles, learning how to kind of take a step back and not just react to things, but to understand them first, learned a lot about empathy and trying to understand someone else's position. The five chairs was one memorable thing that I've had come up in three or four classes that is a great eye-opener for me that, you know, you don't just, don't jump to the red chair. Stay, you know, stay on the green side, blue, purple, whatever you've got to do, but it's helped me understand other people's position and appreciate that before I just respond and say, you know, this is my position, this is the way it has to be. It's also helped me learn when to be more hard-line when you need to be, you know, and not give in, which could, you know, when you're not a good communicator or you're intimidated by people, you could tend to give in, and I definitely would do that in the past in situations where you shouldn't have. So, it's, overall, it's just helped me be a better communicator in a lot of different ways. Great. That's interesting because I was just thinking about, like, the technical classes you were talking about first. Yeah. Sometimes we think of soft skills. That's interesting to hear the difference there. Okay. Do you think any of them, so you talked about the PMP and the PE, so it helps you with your advancement and your position at RIDAP? Yeah. Why is that, would you say? So, getting my PE was, like, an unwritten rule that you get an automatic promotion. I don't even know if it was unwritten. But that was literally, you get your PE, you get a promotion from, like, a senior civil to a principal civil, something like that. So, that was a direct advancement. And then the PMP gave me a step up on all the other PEs. There's very few PEs at the time when I got mine, which is before we even had project management office. Very few PEs with the PMP. So, that, it gave me an advantage when applying for a managing engineer position and applying for a principal civil position. You know, I had a step up just from the resume before you even do the interviews on basically all the other applicants at the time. Yeah. That's great. I'm glad to hear that. Can you give me an example of, and I'm sorry, some of these questions kind of overlap a little, so I just want to make sure for clarification, so I just wanted to tell you that. Can you give me an example of how you apply something you've learned in your training to your actual work? Absolutely. So, the bridge inspection class, for example, we've been able to use that. So, I do oversized overweight permitting, overweight trucks, oversized vehicles. The bridge inspection class has given us the ability to go and look at bridge inspections and identify deficiencies in a bridge and say, okay, this is going to specifically impact this beam, which is in this wheel path, which means we are not comfortable putting this overweight truck in that lane. You know, so it's literally come right down to what we're doing day to day. When we're not sure about something, we can go and look at the inspections and figure out if that truck's going to be safe to cross a bridge based on the information we learned from that class. And we do that every day. You know, I've got other employees in this office that were in the class with us, and we utilize that on a regular basis. The Excel class, I still use Excel every day, organizing information from, we've got a way in motion system that tracks thousands of cars a day. We've got systems that we track different permit types, and so we've got a lot of Excel spreadsheets, basically, that are out there. And I use Trix for organizing that and filtering and sorting and making charts and graphs, all stuff I learned directly from that Excel class. Awesome. How would you measure the success of a training? That's tough. It's definitely multifaceted because you can't go directly from, well, did the students enjoy it? Because I've had classes that I did not enjoy that were good classes, successful classes. Success of a training. Yeah, I would say a portion of it is definitely, you know, did the students enjoy the class? Did they think they got something out of it? But also, you've got to judge engagement, you've got to see what the test scores are, if there's a test. And then, did they get anything useful out of it? I guess, really, that's the big one is, did these people get something that they can take forward and use and pass on? That's complicated in a question, but it is. Yeah. So for you, tell me more. So the measure of success of a training, why do you think the classes you just gave me examples, or if there's any classes that you don't think were successful, tell me a little bit more about that. So from my specific perspective, if I'm taking a class that either A, I already know everything that's going to come out of it, or is something that I can't use, you know, going forward, I'm going to think that's a, I wouldn't even say an unsuccessful class, but I guess, yeah, it's an unsuccessful class, because the purpose of a class is to teach you something. And if I'm not learning something that I can use going forward, that I can utilize, whether it be at home, like the communications classes I use in all aspects of life, or the PE classes that I'm directly applying to my work, if there's a class that I'm not getting something I can use going forward, and that I'm not getting anything out of it, I'd call that an unsuccessful class, in my opinion. Okay. So tell me more about you stated that even if you didn't like the class, but you got something out of it. Tell me a little bit more about that. So you would find it still successful, even if you didn't like the class, but you got something out of it? Yeah. I mean, the goal of class is not to, I mean, a part of it is to make you have a good time and enjoy the class, because it's got a better learning experience that way. But the ultimate goal of a class would be to teach you something that you take forward So I've had classes that are boring, that are, you know, just they kind of, they can put you to sleep sometimes, but that can be a function of the teacher or the material and not necessarily mean you're not getting anything out of it. Okay. That makes sense. What factors contribute to knowledge retention among learners following mandatory training or training programs? So after the trainings, the biggest one for me is definitely the repetitive use of it. If I learn something that I'm not using, I'm just not going to remember it. Like I've forgotten some of the Excel skills because I didn't use those particular tools, but I remember that they were part of it and I might have to go back and relearn them if I want to use it. Whereas there's other ones that I use on a weekly basis and I remember the commands, you know, off the top of my head and can type them right in. So, you know, knowledge retention, absence of class, number one would definitely be repetitive use. Number two might be if it's a topic that gets at least discussed or talked about whether you're using it or not. If other people are using it and it comes up, so then you kind of want to remember at least the basics of it to be able to, you know, speak professionally and knowledgeably about it. But for me, if I don't use it, I'm going to forget it. I've run out of space for new stuff, so it goes out the window if I don't use it. Are there any other factors you think that would contribute to knowledge retention? I guess maybe if it was like a memorable experience because I don't do bridge inspection on a regular basis, but I remember a ton of the stuff that we did out in the field on the bridge inspection class because it was a very new and knowledgeable and memorable experience. So something that's, you know, something that kind of strikes a chord to give you something to remember it by would help me retain it, and obviously it has. But, yeah, being applicable to your job, being memorable, being repetitive use. I guess memorable could be good or bad, too. Tell me a little bit more about that. I can't think of anything off the top of my head that I have a specific memorable like bad experience, but I think it just falls into the same category as memorable. You could have a teacher who, you know, one thing I do remember, actually now I think of it, I remember one teacher one time in a class got mad about something and it kind of went off on two of the students at the time and he got upset about it, the teacher did, and I remember that pretty visibly. It wasn't like a really bad experience, but you could see he was visibly upset and he was like almost yelling at him. So I guess that would be a bad experience or something you remember. So the interpersonal skills. I can guess who that is. I'm not going to, but I can guess. I can guess for that one. Thank you. Do you prefer in-person, online, or a hybrid between the two types of training? And tell me why. Depends on what the goal is. If it's like a mandatory class that I just have to take, I would prefer online because it's not as time-consuming. But if I'm, as far as knowledge retention, successful class, definitely in-person. I don't mind a hybrid, but definitely in-person for me because you're more engaged, it takes away most of the distractions. You're not playing on your computer doing emails and other stuff as much, you know, that happens a little bit, but it's much more, you're going to respect people a lot more if you're in-person as well. When you're online, people have no problem, just turn their camera off, take a nap, walk away. When you're in-person, that's not going to happen, you know, for the most part. Most people are going to be much more respectful in an in-person class. Yeah, I just, I think it's much more personal when you're in-person and it forces you to pay attention more, or makes you want to pay attention more, and you're going to learn more that way. Tell me more about the online class, and your comment, you said that it's not your favorite to do online, but for mandatory, it'd be okay. Why would it be mandatory online, just so I understand? I don't have to pay as much attention. I mean, to be honest, a lot of the mandatory classes tend to be repetitive. You know, it's mandatory every year you take this training, and I could test right out of them every year, over and over. But you've got to go through the course, you've got to do it. So, you know, doing it online, I don't have to take the time to go there, and sit there, and not really pay attention, because I already know the topics. It's kind of like I explained before, a lot of successful classes, if I'm not learning something, I'm not going to be as engaged. If it's topics I already know, then I'd just rather do the online course to kind of get it over with, and take the test, pass the test, and move on. But if it's a course I'm interested in, new, exciting topic, something that I want to do, I'm going to want to be in person, because I want to retain it, I want to learn something new, you know, it's going to be interesting, exciting. Makes sense. Can you tell me a little bit more about hybrid? Your thoughts on hybrid training, meaning, when I say hybrid, I mean partial, maybe to do something online, and instructor-led? So, it kind of depends on, like, what part is online. Like, if you've got to go and watch a video, and do, like, an assignment online, that makes sense, that's perfectly understandable, because it's efficient, it's faster, you can do it at your own time, generally. So, that makes sense in an efficiency point of view. But as far as the actual teaching, I think in person is better every time. But I don't mind a hybrid for the right type of stuff. You know, you're taking your tests online after, that type of stuff, it doesn't make any difference to me. Have you had any online classes that you enjoyed, or actually hated? Oh, yeah. I don't know of any online ones. I like, well, I've had some that I really enjoyed, and the ones that I most memorably enjoyed is because I had previous classes with those people in person. A lot more communications classes with an instructor we've had many times was great, but I don't think she does instruct anymore. And we had in-person classes, and then that made the online classes more enjoyable later. Okay. That makes sense. So, how do you usually stay up to date with skills relevant to your role? A lot of it is through picking the right training courses that the RIDOT training staff sends out. A lot of them come through John. You know, they're specifically requested for our offices, and we pick and choose the ones that are going to be most helpful, or the people that need it the most. So, that's a huge portion of it, is just doing the classes that are offered. And the other piece would be kind of doing my own research on, you know, when topics come up that relate to my job, and I'm not familiar with them, I'll do my own research and figure it out. And a good example of that piece is the Rhode Island general laws. There's a lot of laws to relate to the stuff that we do, and I have inadvertently become the Rhode Island general law expert in the RIDOT office. So, whenever somebody has a question about the general laws, they come to me because I've kind of mastered how to search for them, how to find the right laws, that type of stuff. But that's an example of we've never taken a class on it, but I had to figure it out on my own because it was a big part of what I do. So, but I would say the biggest portion is definitely having the right classes set up for us, and then offering them to us with, you know, with good time frames where we can get access to them and taking those classes. So, tell me more about how you found things on your own, because you said the RIDOT classes we have are there and you take them, but then you saw benefit for your own. I'd like to understand a little bit more about that. Most of it is rules, regulations, laws, stuff related very specifically to trucking, to oversize avoidance. So, like, it wouldn't make sense to put a whole class together on it because it'd be like five or six people that would really be into it. And a lot of it starts with Google search, you know, go on Google, search Rhode Island general law, ABC, see what comes up, and it's a lot of internet searching. That's what it comes down to. Actually, that's not all true. I do do a lot of networking with other people in my industry, I guess, in my field, like other states. We meet monthly with a NASTO committee, which is all of the northeastern states' permit offices, all the managers. So, meeting with other people, making connections with the state police, with trucking industry, with trucking companies, a lot of networking as well. What skills are you currently trying to develop? I'm always trying to improve my communication skills. You know, that's always something that I think that's, you heard me say it a hundred times, that's the key to most problems. One way or another, there's a communication breakdown, and you can backtrack almost any issue to some kind of communication failure. So, I'm always working on that, interested in that. If there's something new that comes up, I like to take those. Nothing I'm really focusing on besides that, although I'm in the process of learning about way in motion, which I'm not excited about, but I have to be a big part of it, which is just a project we're working on through the state. And same thing with all very specific topics, automated routing for permitting, that's a new project we're working on. And same type of thing, I'm kind of learning on my own, learning from the experts that we have around. So, those are the only things I can think of right now. But those are more technologies than skills, I guess. Tell me more about that. So, how are you learning about those? Asking questions, having meetings. You know, we do as much hands-on stuff as possible to see how other people are doing these things. Both the way in motion and the automated routing stuff kind of go hand-in-hand, but they're two major topics with a lot of technology involved. A lot of subjects that I've never dealt with. So, most of it is listening and asking questions in meetings and with the right people at the table, looking at how other states have done it, what the upcoming technologies are. We tend to get a lot of companies who want to sell us stuff, like, you know, their new technology is the best thing on the market. So, kind of vetting them, having meetings with them, seeing what they have to offer, seeing how it fits in with what we're trying to do. Same type of stuff. Just a lot of research, a lot of asking questions, a lot of networking. How would you describe the learning culture at Rybop? All over the board. I mean, we have some people who don't want to go to any class, no matter how pertinent it is to their job, how much it could benefit them in their performance or in life in general. And we have other people who just want to go to training whenever they can get into it, just to get out of the office, you know, it doesn't matter what it is. And then there's people who are genuinely interested in learning, a lot of people, and they want to choose the right classes. They want to make the best of the class. They want to use their time wisely. They want to make themselves better at their job in general. But it's all over the board. I think, in general, people appreciate the opportunity to learn. They appreciate the classes we have, and I think they've done a great job of getting the right classes that we need and showing us where they are, you know, making them available, making sure we know it's out there. Yeah, I guess that's about it. But as far as the people go, the people are all over the board. The students, I would guess, I'd say. Tell me more about that. Do you think there's any reason why they're all over the board? It's just different people, different personalities. Some people, like, you know, say you have people who didn't even make it through high school, you know. They're not good learners. They don't want to learn. They don't want to go to class. They find it boring. And then there's other people who got their master's and their doctorate, and they enjoy that atmosphere. So I think it's just – it's really more of an aspect of the person more so than the classes. Do you think it has to do with anything else besides, like, the person? Do you think it's, like, just an example, like, the section? I've never experienced that, but I could definitely see where, like, a manager could think that training is a waste of time and has not wanted his whole section to go to trainings unless, like, absolutely mandatory. Something like that could happen. But again, that's a function of that person controlling the whole section. I think probably the field guys are less inclined to want to sit down all day in a classroom and do that type of learning. So you might have to tailor the style of learning or the style of class to the people. Like, the bridge inspection class, you know, that was a lot of sit-down learning for the guys who are in the field doing inspections every day. But once you got them out in the field, you could see they just, like, the light switch went on and they were in their element. So, yeah, matching the type of learning to the type of people I could see being a big help. Okay. Is there anything else you would know about the culture for learning at Rybap, perhaps even against the other places? It's tough to judge because I haven't been in many other places for, you know, this type of role. But I had a job previous to RIDOT where I worked at a propane company. And they were very heavy into the classes and stuff. But it was all, like, federally mandated safety stuff, you know, it was all mandatory. Whereas at RIDOT, we – it seems like we pretty actively try to push out new optional stuff that people want to see, not necessarily all stuff that people have to take. And trying to find the classes that, A, that we need and, B, that we want more so than just, like, taking classes and saying, here you go, take this, you know, try this option. There's a lot of – it seems like there's a lot of effort that goes into finding the learnings that people want to have. Do you feel encouraged to pursue learning opportunities? And if so, why or why not? Depends on if I have my incentive credit or not. Talk about that a little. That is the biggest problem I see with the learning – with classes – I don't know how to say it exactly, but that's a major problem, a major disincentive for people to want to learn at RIDOT. I've got four years where me taking classes is only going to make it more classes I can't take in the future to get my incentive back. So now you're pitting learning against a monetary advancement. Like, so I actively won't take a class now if I know it's a class I could take in the future and get my incentive credit. Because if I do that, then I can't take it in the future. So the way they have that structured is definitely a disadvantage to the learning community here. Interesting. Interesting, right? Without a doubt. Because it's a cheaper incentive. It's incentive credit. No, it's not. Oh, the incentive – right, but I'm saying when you can't get it, it should be set up as a continuing education. You have to get so many incentive credits a year to keep your incentive. That would make much more sense to push learning. But the way they have it set up is we get to save money for three years and then you can get it back again. So aside from the incentive credit, do you ever feel or do you feel encouraged to pursue learning opportunities or not? I do. I do. And you know what my next biggest disincentive to learning is? The workload. In prior years, I wasn't as busy or the work was kind of there when you were available, but it would either take care of itself or someone else would take care of it when you didn't. Whereas now I'm more in a role of if I don't do this, it's going to sit there until I do. So the workload definitely can be a disincentive to wanting to learn more. At least in the position I'm in right now, it seems like I'm so much more busy than I was five or six years ago, which is a big – partially my own fault, but it doesn't matter. I've created a lot of stuff. It's to advance the section that's made me very busy and it pushes out that extra time for training. Does that make sense? So what could be improved in the current or past training programs? Could you give any feedback for improvements? Improvements in the current and past training programs. I mean, it's always nice to say getting more field time in for the people that use it and need it is always helpful. Bringing back lunches would be great. That incentivizes people a lot. I don't know. I mean, I would say the instructors are like 80-20. You get a lot of good instructors and you get a handful that are just either boring or not effective. Not too many, but I have a feeling those are like specialty classes are the only options and it's tough to get other people. But that's mostly pretty good. Not really. I mean, they've done a great job of finding the classes, getting feedback on what classes we need and want, that type of stuff. So the actual class selection I think has been great from at least from the position I'm in. Tell me a little bit more about the improvements that can help with training. So you said 80-20 and 80% you thought the instructors were there. What would help that 20% to be better? So what I'm saying is 80-20 just about the instructors. Like 80% really good instructors, 20% not as good instructors in my opinion. Whether they're – there's no back and forth. That's a big thing that will put people to sleep or they'll stop paying attention. So instructors that kind of – as much as people don't like it a lot, they kind of force engagement and they force the answer questions. They'll pick the pick on people to, you know, to talk about stuff or to read something or to get up in front of the class or, you know, group exercises, that type of stuff. Engagement is probably one of the biggest things I see as an instructor's downfall. They're not doing that. And then instructors who don't want to – they have no – like no wiggle room. They're too rigid. Like, nope, this is how it is. You know, you can't – it's hard to have a conversation with them, you know, because they just want to say this is the class. This is how it works. There's no ifs, ands, or buts about it, that type of stuff. You know, to me, they're probably instructors with poor communication skills, honestly. I think you need to keep the people engaged. And the classes where I like the topics and don't like the class is probably the ones where they're not keeping us as engaged. Tell me a little bit more about that. So when you say be engaged, what are they doing that makes you feel engaged? Just having us do stuff, talking to us, like so we're not just on the other side of a computer screen or something, you know, making us feel like people, getting us involved, letting us tell stories, ask questions, get up and move around, do activities instead of just, you know, like the giant hall room where you just sit there and listen to the teacher talk all day. So you're not a fan of lecture, it sounds like. I did plenty of it, but – and I passed them all, but I was when I was in college. Not so much now. Are there any training opportunities that you wish you had available to you? That question has come from our training section several times, and I haven't personally been able to think of anything specific that they haven't covered. I also don't go out and actively look for classes very often. I have like once or twice through – geez, who was it? I think it's NHI has a bunch of free classes once you're signed up on their system. So once or twice over the past several years, I've gone and looked through their classes and taken a couple of the free ones. But again, you guys don't need to offer those if they're free and you can do them on your own. So not really. I can't think of anything. I'm always impressed with the classes that come out because there's always new topics and new stuff that I hadn't seen and hadn't thought of. But no, unfortunately, I don't have anything I can think of that I'm looking for that hasn't been offered. What would make training more engaging? And I know we've been talking about this, so I feel like I'm asking some of the same questions, but I'm trying to get to the crux of that. I'm good at repeating myself. The engagement, as far as I can tell, mostly comes from the instructor as kind of them forcing us to be engaged through question and answer, through raising hands, telling stories, getting involved, relating to the students, understanding their point of view, their perspective, trying to tailor a class towards their specific needs and expertise instead of just staying rigid to the basic topic. I've had some instructors who are really good at that. They'll focus on different sections and topics because it relates more to RIDOT than the standard, federal standard or whatever it is. And then getting us into activities, that's from the instructor side. But a portion of that is also how the class is set up, so the class can be set up to get us more engaged, like team activities and the games, the Jeopardy games, stuff like that that they play that gets us involved. So that's a factor of the class itself, and that comes from the instructor. So if they're focused on engagement when they put the class together, they're going to get it through the class and from them. What improvements can help with learning and retention and the application of what you actually learn? So we can kind of ask those maybe as two separate, like what improvements would help people to retain the knowledge? Yeah. And then we'll come to the second part after. So from my perspective, what helps me retain knowledge is seeing it and using it in different ways, different aspects. So like having it taught from a slide and then reading it and kind of applying it in a book through like examples and then actually applying it in the field practice. So that multi-approach, you learn different pieces of the same information in different ways because you're going to learn something different when you're listening to it. And then when you apply it in the field, you're going to say, oh, wow, now this part makes sense that I didn't understand when he was telling me. So kind of hitting three different types of learning, I guess, with the same information helps me retain it a lot. So what do you mean by three different types of learning? Having it verbally, having it told to us verbally and visually, I guess, when you've seen it up on slides, and then reading through it and kind of working it on your own in a book. Examples, even if it's a test, something like that, where you're actually doing it yourself but kind of at a desk. And then the third way would be hands-on, physically applying whatever it is, whether it's reviewing a permit at a computer or it's inspecting a bridge out in the field, actually doing whatever the information is that you're learning. So I guess that doesn't apply to all information, but for the most part, applying it, like doing practice and applying it. Do you think there could be – could you give any examples or is there room for improvement for that application piece? I don't know. The best example I have of a good job of it was the bridge inspection class where we did everything. They taught it to us and then we worked examples as groups in the class and then we went out to the field and did it. They had the perfect mix of all three and I think that's why I retained a lot of it. An example where they didn't do that? I think maybe the – geez, what's it called? It was the last certification I got that I emailed you about. Oh, your Scrum Master. Scrum Master. Scrum Master. I felt like that one, for me, lacked in the application portion of it because it's something that we don't do as RIDOT very often, so I haven't been able to apply it as much as I'd like. And I think having a better application side of that to RIDOT's situation, kind of tailoring it to us and then trying to apply it would have helped a lot because I found that kind of mindset was difficult to wrap my head around because it wasn't something I was familiar with. Tell me more about that. Was it – was that class engaging? It was. Yep. The teachers were great. They knew the topics. They were a lot of back and forth. They got us into groups. So we did a lot of stuff, but the only thing that was hard for me was how do I apply it to RIDOT? And that was kind of a topic as part of the class, too. They knew that RIDOT's not really this type of company or organization, but it's a good thing to know and understand, and then we were lacking that how does it apply to my job? How do I use it? And that's where I struggled was where am I going to apply this? Okay. Great. Well, those are all my questions. Did you have anything else that you wanted to add about your perceptions about training or how people learn at RIDOT? Not really. I'd kind of be preaching to the choir about that stuff, but I think that training has been great over the years. I've been taking a lot of training for a long time, so nothing really extra to add. Thank you. Okay. I'm going to stop recording. Okay.