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The speaker, Kim Dias Holm, is an artist and storyteller who discusses their experiences with mental health, including bipolar disorder. They talk about how art has always been a form of communication and understanding for them, as well as a way to calm their nerves. Kim also explores the idea of talking about personal topics and the universal nature of certain experiences. They mention the importance of being mindful of what they say and the potential impact it may have on others. They discuss the topic of grief and how it can be experienced on both a personal and societal level. Kim reflects on the beauty of existence and the sadness they feel when they see the world not being utilized to its full potential. Before we start talking, kind of like Kattel had said, it's just a conversation, very similar to what we did when we did the portrait, just chatting. Our main focuses for the show this season is grief, resistance, joy, and New Jersey. I don't expect us to talk about all the different topics, but I figure that, especially with your art being focused on some political things and just some resistance, and I think even your own personal grief and some of the things that you've talked about, I think would be awesome to connect with here. It's very much just a conversation. If there's something that we say and you're like, I want to tell you this, but I don't want to tell this to a lot of people I don't know, just say so and we'll get that out of the recording. No, no. I am basically an open book. I will not talk about my children or my wife or any other person that's going to be, yeah, that isn't consenting to it, but I can talk about things from my perspective. Awesome. Perfect. Then the only question that I will ask at the end is, usually I'll ask someone if there is a song that is meaningful to them relating to a grief experience or even if we want to extend it into something that feels like resistance or that is a helpful way to say fuck it to everything happening that helps empower. That's just one thing to think about, and again, I'll ask you that more towards the end, but also I wanted to say before, yeah, and if nothing comes to mind right away, we can always just put it in later because that's essentially like how we pick the title for your episode. And Kim, I made sure that my nails were painted because you always have such awesome nails. Yes. So I had like my metal nails done today. Very good. Very good. All right. Awesome. So I guess we can officially start off by, Kim, why don't you introduce yourself and tell a little bit about who you are and what you do. My name is Kim Dias Holm. I'm also called Den Ungeher Holm all around the web because I was smart enough to choose a very Norwegian name for my international social media presence. So that's how smart I am. I am an artist and a storyteller, and I guess an influencer would be the correct, if scary, job description, but I do make my living doing the art and doing things on social media and making videos and trying to figure out life on my own stage, in a sense. And also some of the things I talk about is often my own struggles with mental health and yeah, all the fun stuff. Yeah, all the fun things, but things that are super relatable. And I think that that, I know that's how I think I found you. I think I found you first through your art, but then you go into depth, not only about your artistic process, but about your personal experiences, battling, sometimes it's depression. I know that you also have been upfront about your diagnosis with bipolar disorder and just how that influences the art that you make. Was it your intention when you first started to talk about those things when you were doing art, or did it just kind of evolve that way? Very good question. I mean, in a sense, yes, it was my intention, but it was never an intention. I mean, you mentioned my diagnosis of a bipolar type 2, and I've always had this idea that underneath the bipolar and the ups and downs of depression, there was something underlying, an underlying way of being or perceiving the world. And recently, I've come to figure out that that's probably a combination of autism and ADHD. And I figured this out because I did a portrait of you a year ago, and I did a lot of portraits of a lot of people, and a lot of the people I drew and talked to had autism or ADHD or both. And that was sort of a part of figuring out, oh, there's something here that seems to fit. And this is related to your question, because when I go back and look at my earlier life, I started drawing when I was one year old, and talking when I was between two and three. So, for me, drawing was always, it was a form of communication, it was a form of understanding the world, putting the world into a system that was understandable to me, because I've never understood the world, but through art and through stories, I can make sense of it. I can make sense of it. And also, it was just a physical form of stimming, of calming my nerves by the motion of the pencil or brush. And, you know, together with all of that, I've always had almost a healthily sized ego, but it's actually quite unhealthily sized. I've always had a big ego and always thought I was very special and was better than others, often to my detriment, because I've walked into quite a few walls, overestimating my skills, my intelligence, and underestimating other people in the room. And, you know, with that sort of ego, and without, I don't really have any, never understood the social barriers of why you should talk about some things, but shouldn't talk about other things. So, for me, all my life, I wanted to tell stories with art, and all my life, it's been natural that some of those stories are about me, because I am the main character of my world. Right. No, that makes sense. And I'm reading this as we talk, and, you know, that idea about why you should talk about some things versus not others, that so resonates with me. You know, because I think it's so hard. And I'm curious, too, like, you know, as you're exploring, you know, thinking about your neurodivergence, and like, and how that might come into play with this idea of like, what is permissible versus what isn't. But like, at the same time, you know, I think something I struggle with is, why are certain topics off the table? You know, and why don't we allow things that are universal to be talked about? And I think, you know, in the art that you create, it feels like you're exploring those things that maybe people think should not be on the table to talk about, but, you know, putting it in a way that people can relate to it and process it, or maybe a starting point for conversation. Yeah, if it works like that, then that would be, then I'm pleased in a sense. But I think I actually think about when it comes to my art and my presence in the world right now, and I think about what I should talk about and what I shouldn't talk about in a sort of a little bit different way than, because I know I can't rely on my gut feeling of what is okay and acceptable to talk about, because then I will, you know, I don't mind offending people, I don't mind pissing people off, but I mind doing it without intent. And if I am just to be myself and do my, you know, do what I please, and say it my way, then I will piss off and offend and let down a lot of people that I don't intend to do that. So, in a sense, as I'm talking much more openly and publicly, I'm becoming much more aware of what I'm saying and what I'm trying to say, and why some things, why there are some rules for what to say and what to not say, and those aren't necessarily the societal rules, but it's the rules of how it's easy for me to, for instance, speak on an issue and speak over those who have more personal experiences with it. This is actually a peer that I'm sitting with right now, because this is a podcast about grief, and I don't know if I've ever experienced grief, and I'm not even certain if maybe there's something weird with my grief center, in a sense. So, I'm approaching this, trying to approach this, carefully and with curiosity, not because there are some societal rules about what I should say and what I shouldn't say, but because I do not want to let you down, offend you, or say something wrong, because, you know, I can talk all day if I want, but sometimes I'm not the most important person in the room, except, you know, when I'm the podcast guest, that I should, I don't know. No, look, I appreciate that, and I appreciate that, honestly, and I mean, I'll say I share that feeling. I think that's why we've been on hiatus for four years, because I, you know, because I started to realize that my grief was so specific to me and was so specific to what my world looked like, but it was not identical to the experiences of other people, and I think something that I've struggled with a lot is trying to find that balance of what does grief look like to other people versus what it looks like to me, you know, what does resonate with other people, and it's interesting that, you know, when you talk about not, you know, not feeling like you've had your own grief experiences, but because I feel like so much of your work, to me, I think speaks to grief that's happening on this larger scale, whether it's political things, you know, whether it's these, I mean, you know, like all the wonderful creatures and monsters that you create, but some of them feel like they're based in the things that we feel as humans, you know, and it kind of explores these different ways that we're challenged by the world we live in and challenged by the emotions of ourselves that we can't always regulate or understand, and I think that, I think that, to me, there's a grief with that, too, is, you know, trying to be good humans or the best version of ourselves and fighting all of these monsters and battles and, like, not knowing how or even, like, what is the right way to do it, you know, I think that, I think a lot of people struggle to even know where to start. I think I can sort of agree to having experienced one type of grief, and that is the grief of existence, of seeing the magnificence of being, you know, just how incredibly wonderful it is that anything exists at all, and the beauty of the world and the beauty of people and the beauty of, you know, from the smallest speck of dust to the largest thought, it's all incredibly beautiful and it's all something that gives me a sense of sadness because we're not really utilising this world quite as well as it deserves, as we deserve, in a sense, and that might be what comes through in my Ink Monsters and in my art, because I've I've slowly started to learn a little bit more about how I do my art and why I do my art, and it's a continual learning, but one thing I've become more and more aware of is is when I draw a monster or a horrible thing or a funny thing, my sense of whether it succeeds as a work of art relies on whether or not I identify with it. So whether it is, you know, drawing something angry and hateful and scary, and it has to come from me, in a sense, and if it's something goofy and silly and stupid, it has to come from me, and I have to, every monster I've drawn, at least every successful one, is a self-portrait of a kind, and when I look back on them, a lot of the ones I like the most have there is this tinge of sadness in their four eyes or, yeah, their crooked long-toothed smile. Yeah, and I think, I mean, I think what you spoke about, the grief of the world, or just the grief that this world is not functioning in the way that we want it to, I think that is the biggest grief that we are all navigating right now, you know, and I think one of the beauties of social media is there being that opportunity for more solidarity with it, but, you know, because it is such an isolating feeling, but are you surprised when you put your monsters into the world, or when you put your art into the world, or when you share your feelings, or what's going on with you, the response that you get from other people? Because, I mean, you know, whenever I look in your, like, look at the comments, I mean, it seems like there's a lot of people who very personally resonate with the work you're doing, or what you're sharing. I am extremely grateful for it. I try to be very aware of it, and take it, not take it for granted, and I also, when I meet people who have had intense experiences and related to my art, and who have high expectations of me from that, I try to take that very seriously, and also disarm them by pointing out that, yeah, I'm just an idiot too. We're both just goofballs. That's all it is. But the huge ego comes into play here, and I'm more surprised that not everyone in the world loves my art. If I love it, then everyone else must love it, and even if I don't love it, it must be good enough for everyone else to. I don't know, it is, there is a disease in that ego. There is a sickness there, which probably is good for art, or getting better at creating art, but which, if unchecked, leads to a lot of problems, and I think that if I had gotten my social media, my TikTok fame, in my 20s, or God forbid, in my teens, that would be a total catastrophe, because I hadn't hit enough walls to learn how to tame the worst sides of the ego, the most destructive sides of the ego, and yeah, that wouldn't have been fun for anyone. This would have been hilarious, but not in a good way. No, I think about that all the time. When I got introduced to social media, and the beauty of having a platform like that, and also the pain of it, and being really grateful that this was not something that existed until I was a little older in life, so that way I could not, I don't know, feel the full wrath of what it's like for me in my teens or 20s to have a platform where everyone gets to think or hear exactly what I'm thinking. I don't think that would have been good for anyone. Absolutely. I know, Kim, that we had talked before about the portrait series, which is how we met. You had pretty much put out a call to your followers wanting to do more portraits and have a chance to connect to people who followed you. I think I was having a bout of insomnia, which is why I think I saw your post right when it came up, and so it was like three o'clock in the morning, and I think I recorded the video on my couch and was able to get it to you pretty quickly. I'd love if you talked a little bit about that project and why you wanted to do it, and what you've learned or what you learned talking to different people. I know you mentioned a little bit about just how it helped you have a little bit of maybe self-reflection, self-discovery, but I'd love to know what other things you learned or were surprised about from that exercise. Yeah, so a lot of things I do are, in a sense, excuses to get closer to a point where I want to get, and so the main motivation about doing this open call for people to talk to over Zoom and to draw portraits of, was to force myself to be a better portrait artist. It was very simple, egotistical, I have a lot of models that I can use, and so that was sort of the end goal, and that is still a goal that I'm chasing, but at the same time I was struggling with how to relate to all of these parasocial relationships that I had gotten, some of them with my mutuals, other creators, who I have a parasocial relationship to them, and they have a parasocial relationship to me, but we don't have a relationship between us. We just have two separate parasocial relationships to each other, which is very weird, and then, in addition, I was getting messages from people who were really affected by my art and what I was saying, and I had probably hundreds of these regular commenters who were joining the lives, and who commented on my posts, and who I knew a little bit about and recognized their names, and I had maybe a lesser parasocial relationship with a lot of them, because I knew them, and I was happy when I saw their comments on one of my posts, but I didn't even have a face to a lot of them, and so for me, one of the interesting things with doing this open call for people to chat with for an hour on Zoom while drawing them, was just to figure out how these things work, who these people are, who you people are, as if you were one of them, and I sort of found that my hands, so to speak, are the most wonderful, creative, intelligent weirdos, and it was really delightful, and I learned so much, and again, it's this ego thing where I put out this call for people to draw a portrait of, because, of course, in my mind, I'm the most important, best, most intelligent person, and then I get to talk to you for an hour and a half, and hear your experiences, and your life with the grief you've been through, and the grace, and thought, and both how you carried yourself through that conversation, and how you reflected on how, basically, for that conversation, and for a lot of the other portrait conversations, I just got a one-on-one call with a magnificent teacher that taught me a lot about something I know nothing about, and it was wonderful, and humbling, and yeah, so thank you. Well, thank you, I mean, I got some, you know, I thought, I think we both, you know, I didn't know what to expect from it, and I was nervous, because, I mean, like you said, and I think you're so right about these parasocial relationships, I think it's something that's been a really interesting offset from doing this, you know, because I'm sitting here talking, and it's like, I'll be talking to you, or I might talk to a few people, and I'm like, like, I'm the same, I'm an open book about my stuff, like, I just will say whatever, and then when someone receives that, like, I'll get these messages from people, and they're sharing their stories, and I'm just, I'm floored by it, you know, and it's also, and in a way, I'm really appreciative to be someone who can be that vessel, or to receive that. I'm always honored when someone wants to share, but it's also really, it can be really overwhelming sometimes, and it can be really, you know, it's a lot to hold space for, and I think it's such a cool part of social media, because, you know, I'm friends with people who I never would have otherwise gotten a chance to know, but then sometimes it feels like, you know, you're having a relationship with people who know you better than, you know, you know them, and then how do you kind of even that playing field, and I appreciate it from our conversation that, you know, I think that it was nice to be able to just, to appreciate what was happening in the sense of, like, the art, and you as an artist, and being able to, you know, enjoy seeing what your process was like a little bit, and also being able to have a connection while we talked, and, you know, and share in a way that felt like a mutual learning, you know, and being able to be part of, like, that art, and that process was just so interesting, and that was humbling. That's very good to hear, and I, I mean, I remember every one of these conversations very fondly, but the one with you was one of a handful that stuck out, that were more profound than I had expected going into this, but at the same time, there was also, not with you specifically, but with everyone, there was this element of danger. There is this element of danger, because, especially when you're talking a lot about mental health, and you are talking a lot directly, in some sense, into the lives of people who are also struggling with mental health, and there can be a real danger of people latching on to that parasocial relationship in really unhealthy and destructive ways, and luckily, I've only gotten some small tapes of it once in a while, but, you know, especially when I talk to women who are in the spotlight, they've all had these awful, stalker experiences, which is, you know, it is this same type of parasocial relationship, but it doesn't have, yeah, it goes to a much darker place. So, I think, for me, that was probably, that hint of possible danger was probably one of the reasons why I did it as well, because I wanted to be able to think more about that, and unfortunately, none of the 30 or so people I drew portraits of and talked to turned out to be psychos, at least it doesn't seem so, so far. So, I didn't get that brush with danger, but that's probably for the best. Yeah. But it's a very complicated, it's a very, I mean, the world is kind of complicated and tricky, and it has been for billions of years, and in the last hundred years, humans have exponentially made it trickier for ourselves. In fascinating and awesome ways, often, but also in tricky ways. Yeah, it's like we have expanded the ways that we're able to communicate, but we've also put so many barriers and restrictions on how we can communicate at the same time, it feels like, and again, this goes back to, I think, a big reason, I mean, there was a few, but I think a big reason for this show, it's like, I'm probably the opposite of you, where I'm always, I don't have the ego, I'm constantly questioning myself and worrying about imposter syndrome, and always trying to make sure I'm being mindful of how what I'm putting out is affecting other people, or how it builds on what might be useful to other people, and I really found myself paralyzed with a fear of not being, of saying the wrong thing, of doing the wrong thing, until it got to a point where I think I realized that not doing anything at all was the wrong thing. And that eventually, I was going to have to be willing to make the mistakes and potentially alienate some people by talking about these subjects, because otherwise it felt like not making space at all, to avoid making a messy space or an imperfect space, felt like it was worse, you know. But it's been interesting, because it's like you have this opportunity to talk to more people, but at the same time, it feels like it's harder when you know there's more eyes on you. Yeah, I can totally not relate, because I think your description is kind of accurate, because I came to this from the opposite end. I had to learn to be considerate of others' emotions by doing the wrong things, by saying the wrong things, by being a brat, being an asshole. And I always took up the space that I felt I wanted to, and that got me in a lot of trouble from early on. So I do have the self-doubt, and I do have the imposter syndrome, and all of that, but it doesn't come from this inhibited place. It comes from being so wildly uninhibited, and then getting my face kicked in again and again. And yeah, so while your journey seems to have been to become more willing to go out there and say things, no matter how others might feel, my journey is to slowly but surely try to be more considerate of the fact that there are others in this strange and beautiful world. We're like meeting, we're finally, see, Kim, and then we've met in the middle. We're both, we're both tackling our own, our own, you know, the difficulties and discomfort, and it's brought us here. Yes. Beautiful. And I think... Oh no, go on, go on. Please ask. You were going to ask something. Yeah, well, I guess, because, you know, it's interesting, like, when you talk about, you know, the ego that you have in your art, and how that's been something that, you know, has been part of that process. I also find it interesting, though, that you also advocate for creating art for free use, you know, and that feels like it's almost counterintuitive to the idea that, you know, being egotistical in your art, and, you know, because you're saying, look, I want this out in the world. I want people to be able to have access to it. I want people to, you know, I want to share this. So I'm curious how that plays into, you know, was that part of your journey, your process, and trying to, you know, like, undo some of that ego? Or has that always been a part of what's been important to you in creating art? Very good question. So, I've considered myself an artist all my life, and I'm born in 1980, and in 2001, after years of the piracy debate, and all of that, you wouldn't steal a car commercials, and all of that stuff, then I I sort of got to this conclusion that the problem wasn't piracy, it wasn't it wasn't that people were stealing art, it was that copyright was restricting the free spread of art, and making, in a sense, a field of art and information spreading toxic by putting in these artificial barriers. And and my ego was big enough that I just knew that I was right, and that all of my colleagues in the art field, who I looked up to, were wrong. And they just had to, they would accept it, in time. So, that day, I actually did a very cryptic two-page autobiographical comic, very abstract, very cryptic. I found it a few months ago, I found it again, and read it for the first time. It's completely nonsense, because it's all very abstract, and it's all these fleeting thoughts, but it was my anti-copyright manifesto. It wasn't a manifesto for laying out the the reasons, and the politics, and the practical realities of why I was against copyright. It was more on a personal level, it was a call to arms for why I knew that I would spend the rest of my life trying to figure out how to do free art. And at that time, creative commons didn't exist, social media didn't exist, and I didn't have the tools to do this, but I knew I had to do it. I had to do it, and I had to find ways to both make a living of my art, and also to make sure that I showed that you can spread art freely without that destroying the art or the artist. And so again, it wasn't because I wanted to give my art away to anyone, it was because I think I'm right, and I have to prove it by doing it in a way that no one can deny. And I'm very happy that in the 24 years since then, the copyright debate has shifted a huge part, and now even the most staunch advocates for copyright admit that there are some problems with intellectual property law. And there is a general understanding that this system is a bit weird, and doesn't quite work as it's intended. But there is still a long way to go towards, you know, creating a system that works and is free. And I think that for society, we need that. We need to stop thinking of knowledge as something that you can own. I think there are bigger problems with ownership as a whole, but, you know, with intellectual property, that is a problem that is becoming more and more apparent. And, you know, one of the things that I'm most worried about these days is, of course, AI. And not just because AI will be used in catastrophic ways, and will take the jobs of a lot of artists, and will result in worse art. No matter how fun it is to mess around with, it's going to have a lot of negative consequences. But one of the most negative consequences is something that might happen because of how artists are protesting against AI right now. Because more and more artists are banding together and are saying that we need AI to apply to the copyright laws, to the intellectual property laws, which seems like a very reasonable thing to demand. They have to ask consent and pay the artists, right? Seems very reasonable. Except that companies like Microsoft, and Disney, and a handful of others have spent the last many years buying up so much intellectual property that if we get a court ruling saying that AI has to apply or abide by the copyright laws, then that will automatically give a monopoly to companies like Microsoft to control the whole AI field. And that's not a good, I mean, that's not a good solution for anyone. And in that sense, I'd rather have chaos of this awful AI toys we're getting today than how it will be if companies like Microsoft and, yeah, Disney and Time Warner control what people can and can't do with AI. Yeah. I mean, this is a, that brings to mind the example, I remember, I think it was like what was Cartoon Network, because that was a part of Time Warner, and it had all of these wonderful cartoons and all these different shows and series that essentially disappeared. And I guess like when, I don't know, is Cartoon Network a thing anymore? I just remember that there was, all of a sudden there was like all these shows and all this beautiful animation that had been done. And essentially when they decided that they wanted to pull the plug on it, it was gone. And that, you know, it can't be found anymore because, you know, like you said, they bought, you know, buying all of these smaller channels or, you know, these companies that are kind of buried within these larger networks. And then all of a sudden, the work of these artists, of these writers who've created these shows that are beloved, no longer see the light of day anymore, because a network exec decides they shouldn't exist. And with Warner specifically, there's been these cases of them not releasing at least two different movies that were complete, because it made more financial sense as a text write-off. And that is work that will never see the light of day that people pour their hearts and souls into, whether or not the work is good. Right, right. People tried to make it good. And yeah, we'll never see it. And still, if they wanted to license it out to an AI company, they could train their AI on that. So, yeah. And with the dominance now of Netflix and Disney Plus and Amazon Prime, we're in this world where all the visual entertainment, all the TV and cinema history of the whole world could be accessible to everyone. But instead, we're getting, in a sense, less and less. We're just getting the big shows. There are more and more movies that are almost impossible to get, because having them on a streaming server, and that doesn't make financial sense. But having them as a videocassette, or Blu-ray, that did make sense. Right. So, yeah, we're more limited. It's harder, it's easier to see all the Marvel movies you want to see, but it's harder to find this obscure 1980s indie film than it was, actually. And I think of that, too, now. I mean, you know, conversations that are happening here, where we're seeing a lot more bans on books happening, and bans on conversations where you can even talk about the books that are being banned. And this is a conversation my husband and I recently had, because he has his collection of all his beloved CDs. And we were doing this little flea market thing, and we were bringing them there. And I was like, I don't know if we should be getting rid of our physical media anymore, because for what you're saying, like at what point, you know, we were sold on this idea of streaming, because it's more convenient, and it's less clutter. But that also means that there is somebody else who's controlling then what we get to listen to, what we get to hear, you know, what exists in the world, like you're saying. Yeah, it's a very strange new reality we're walking into. And I guess, I mean, just looking at America these days, which is always a harbinger of what will come for the rest of the world, at least it has been for a long while, there is a sense of grief of this idea of America being, yeah, I don't think it can be resurrected. I don't think that idea of America was ever, in a sense, real, but it was at least something. And now to see how quickly the guardrails of civility or something can just disappear, and what must be a terrifying situation to be in, and also probably absurdly mundane, because I'm guessing that most of your days you are going to the store and paying your bills and driving on the same side of the road as every day. Yeah, it's surreal. And I was just saying this to a friend earlier that, I mean, it just kind of goes back a little bit to what you were saying before about that feeling of like, what should I be saying versus not? Like, I feel like I'm experiencing that right now, because there are some people who are willing to acknowledge the grief, are willing to acknowledge that like, things feel so fucked up right now. And then there are people who want this to be business as usual, who don't even want to act as though the world is on fire right now, you know, and that our country is on fire. And I work in, you know, I work in higher ed. And that has been such a large focal point right now for a lot of what the administration is going after and watching how these institutions are choosing to, some are fighting back and some are complying. And what does that mean for education, you know, and kind of like what you were saying before about, we put all these structures around education and knowledge and thought and art. And on one hand, it makes sense that we want there to be a value attached to it, because there is an importance to it, right. But then, you know, seeing in the before times, how imperfect the way that we put value on education was, because it was so cost prohibitive for people. And it was, you know, you essentially, I mean, like, I'm around the same age you are. And it was so essential that you got a college degree, like, it was like, that is how you move forward. This is how you have to advance. But in the States, that came with hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt for most people, you know, I mean, I'll preface by saying I was lucky that I was able to pay for my undergrad education with minimal loans. But you know, that was not the case for my husband. That is not the case for the majority of the people that I know who are now juggling this massive debt cloud. But you know, what that education was supposed to stand for, what it meant to have higher ed, what the value and the importance were, and now wondering if that even existed at all, because you're watching how it's changing and bending to fit the whims of this, this new order that is that is coming to play. And it, yeah, it's, it makes you question everything, you know, it makes you question in every institution that you had any faith or value in. I think that living in a capitalist world, which we'll just use that word for the whole global market, the whole global whatever, network, whatever it is, there is a very easy way to see what value you put on things by seeing what society pays to those types of things. And consistently in most countries I know of, elementary school teachers have really low paying jobs. And that's the value we put on education, in a sense, as a society. It's not, it's something that we like to talk about how important it is, but we don't actually spend the effort to make it important. And that being said, there are some principles of, you know, of knowledge, things like the scientific method, and critical thinking, and access to knowledge, and the principle that everyone deserves an education. And that has, to a large degree, been carried for by teachers and academics who do a lot more of a job than their paycheck would indicate. And in a sense, what we're seeing now, when Trump and others who claim to be free speech absolutists are really going after free speech in academia, we're seeing that the people who weren't paid to do such a good job, did such a good job, that the education system, despite being underpaid and undervalued, is good enough to be considered a threat to those who, yeah, would like nothing more than to keep their power. Absolutely. Oh, yeah. I think what we're seeing now is, you know, and it's exactly what you're saying. And it's like, and that's why it's so hard with this juxtaposition of, I mean, things are fast-tracking to hell. But, you know, I mean, but a lot of the things that were problematic were problematic before January. It's just that now we're seeing, we're watching this collapse happen so rapidly. But exactly what you said, I mean, with education, with care, you know, with, I mean, like one of the things that is becoming a hot topic now is that they want there to be a higher birth rate. They want there to be more, you know, larger families. But when you look at the reason why people are choosing not to have children, it's because you can't afford to. You can't afford care. You know, you're not, there's no time. There's no, everyone is, must work in order to survive. And the majority of my friends who have children, most of their paychecks are going to childcare. So they have someone, they're paying someone else to raise their kid so they can keep their jobs. And they need to keep their jobs because that's where their insurance is tied to, or that's where their benefits are tied to. So that way, you know, it's like this golden handcuffs. And it's like, they want to be there for their children. They would love to have that opportunity. But it's, there's more money in forcing people to pay exorbitant amounts of money to try to like, you know, just have basic survival. And then, you know, on the flip side, I think a lot of people in our generation are now caring for parents, you know, and what it's like to have to navigate that if you are caring for young children. You know, and yeah, go on. I also, I suspect that a lot of the working class and low class people who voted for Trump also did it in a sense because they were overworked, and they didn't have time to take care of their children. And they saw that this system wasn't working for them like it was intended. And there is this grief underlying it all. And then you have these, in the States, you have these two monolithic political parties who are, you know, both in the business of more or less exploiting that grief. And keeping a fine civil balance of how to keep that grief in check. One side blames the other, and the other blames that side. And then it starts to unravel when someone decides to not just exploit that grief in the traditional polite politician sense, but do it in the full con artist, witch doctor, yeah, way. So, that is... Totally. And I think that that's something, honestly, Kim, that I wish more people in the States would realize. Because I think that right now, there's such a polarization of people who are so damn angry that people fell for this. And I know that that's layered and nuanced. Because I understand that for some people, their motives were racist. They were sexist. They were because of, because they don't like other people, because they are, you know, there is a hate attached to it. But I think that for a larger majority, I think it was just, they were looking out for their bottom line. They were looking out for their interests, their family's interests. And they might not know, these other issues that are being presented might not have meaning to them in their day-to-day life. They're not focused on the rights of immigrants. They're not focused on the rights of trans, because they just want to put food on their table. And they're willing to ignore how this might affect other people, because they're trying to focus on their survival. I'm not saying it's right, but I'm also saying that I don't think, I think sometimes people overlook the fact that there's a lot of people who are living barely above poverty and don't, they're just trying to figure out how they can survive. And I think that neither party really wanted to address that, because exactly what you said, they're using that to be able to maintain the power and the power structure. And if they gave us any of these things that they would promise that they would, then that would give us a power that they don't want us to have. And I think that's any politician. And I think that you have someone who, a certified snake oil salesman who wants, who knows how to go in and identify weaknesses and build this rhetoric that then does pull in a lot of other awful people, in addition to these people who are vulnerable. And now we're getting to live what that looks like. I'm thinking back to our previous conversation when you described the situation with, was it your mother who had Alzheimer's early onset? And when you were in the worst of that, when it had the most pressure on that, I'm assuming that wasn't the time when you thought most, I'm assuming that lends itself to black and white thinking. So when someone who is going, you know, if you're talking to a public office at that time, and they're being difficult, it's more difficult when all the pressure is on to think, oh, that is just a system. It's more easy to think this bitch I'm talking to on the phone is trying to ruin my life. Yeah. Yeah. And when, and it's not just for, you know, the poor, uneducated people. It's also all the middle class people who see that the line between them and what they have and having nothing is very thin. Yeah. And when someone comes and points the finger at, yeah, who's trying to take that away from them, it is very tempting to react with misogyny and racism and transphobia and authoritarianism in order to protect the little you have. Right. Because otherwise, these others will throw it away. Right. Yeah. It's just, it's only, and going back to the education part, if only we were being taught to look at the past, because we have seen time and time again, how that approach only saves you for so long until you are next on the list, you know, and it's not going to, it's not going to save us from what's going to come. And I really think that I'm hopeful. I'm, you know, my phrase for this year is radical hope and trying to hold on to the fact that we are becoming more aware of how important it is to connect with each other and to have this wake up that we all need each other, you know, and there needs to be solidarity and community within all of us, because no one's coming to save us but us, and we can create the world that we want to see. We just have to stop doing it on these terms that are being given to us. And I, in the spirit of radical hope, I have to say that I'm so incredibly impressed with young people these days. Not all, but there is a level of reflectivity and awareness and, you know, when I started TikTok thinking it was a weird dancing app and maybe someone would like to see my art, I had no idea how many, yeah, Americans in their, not just Americans, but Americans in their early 20s would teach me so much about how to act as an aware being, how to behave in a way that's socially conscious. And I think that hopefully a lot of the shit-stained winds of conservatism that are blowing the world towards neo-fascism or something strange, I think a lot of that is also a result of older people in power getting more and more desperate. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. And, you know, the US establishment, the economic elite, had to be pretty damn desperate to accept a plain old faithful salesman like Trump. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I agree. And I'm also hopeful. I think that I'm seeing a lot and I'm learning a lot from the younger generations that are coming up because they are the ones who have had to live through shooter drills. They are the ones who had to live through parents who are barely getting by. They have had every promise that was given revoked and still having to exist through this system. And they know firsthand that no one is coming to save us. And I think that they're, you know, that you're right, they're teaching us, which I'm so thankful for. Kim, I know we're really past time and I'm thankful that you gave us some extra time. I do have one last question. Whether it's focused on the idea of resistance, since we've been kind of talking about that, if there is anything with grief, is there a song that resonates for you when you're thinking about either whether it's getting you through if you're having a downtime or if it's something that helps you kind of maintain hope or, you know, feeling like we can survive this world? Yeah, I just, I was thinking of one song, because you did mention this to me before, and I was thinking of one song, and then I changed my mind in the last second. And there is a Norwegian, was a Norwegian poet called Nordal Grieg, who was a radically leftist poet, and who during World War Two, joined the resistance and eventually died when his plane was shot down over Berlin, I think. And he wrote a poem that later became sort of a national anthem of the union movements, the workers' movements in Norway. And it's a song that took me a long time to learn to like, because you're so exposed to it, and it's very much in, it's one of those songs that you just hear all your life, and it's taken with this pompous seriousness, which it absolutely deserves. It's called Till Ungdommen, To the Youth, and I just found a little bit of a translation of it. I don't know if this translation is good or not, but if I can, I'll read something from it. Okay? Awesome. Sure. Encircled by enemies, enter your time. Under a bloody storm, devote yourself to battle. Perhaps you often fear, uncovered, open. What shall I fight with? What is my weapon? What shall I fight with? What is my weapon? I'll skip a few parts. I'll skip towards the end here. Noble is mankind, the earth is rich, here is poverty and hunger. If there is here poverty and hunger, it is by deceit. Crush it in the name of life, injustice shall fall. Sunshine and bread and mind belongs to all. Then the weapons drop powerlessly down. If we create human worth, we create peace. Those who with their right arms carry a burden, precious and inalienable, can not murder. This is our promise from brother to brother. We will be good towards mankind's earth. We will preserve the beauty, the warmth, as if we were carrying a child tenderly in our arms. And that's, yeah, that's, it's better when it rhymes. It's beautiful, though, and I think that's the perfect, I feel like that's the perfect way to kind of end where we, where we were with the conversation. But thank you so much, Kim. This has really been great. I'm so glad that we had a chance to follow up from our last talk and you know, get to share some of a little bit of some of the things that you talked about before with, with my audience. And, you know, I really value the time that we get to connect with each other. So thank you so much. I was, I came here all prepared to share my very tiny and privileged experience of the grief. And, and we talked about everything else. So, so hopefully it'll have me on another time as well. Yeah, that'd be great. We could do a thought, maybe we could do like a live together or something. Yeah, yeah. Cool. All right. We did it. Yay. Thank you. Yeah, thank you. So that was great. Like I said, if there's anything that you want to edit out, or, you know, just let me know. But I think everything sounded really good. I'll probably follow up with you, Kim, just to let you know when we plan on sharing it. And then I might ask you for a photo we could do just to promote this. But I'll do that over here. Yep, do that. And just Sarah, before we go, one of the things that I had wanted to talk about, but never got to, I just want to show you these, because I don't think I've shown them before. But my grandmother died this Christmas. And it's one of those instances where I'm not sure if my mind works in quite that way. But I did manage to say goodbye to her in the way that made sense to me. And that was by drawing her towards the very end. And I have the images. Oh, wow. Oh, that's beautiful. Oh, wow. Wow. Wow. I love it. Wow. Wanted to show them to you, Sarah, because, yeah. That's awesome. I think that's the first time I've shown them to anyone else. Thank you. Really, really thoughtful. Yeah, that's beautiful. I have a similar picture of my mom that I've been like, drawing of her in the bed. I think there's something about that image that just really, I don't know, it's like capturing those final moments of somebody. And it just feels like it speaks so much. That just brought me right back to that. So that was really beautiful. Thank you so much for having me on. And it was a pleasure and a privilege to get to solve all the world's problems. I feel like we get close every time we talk. I'll send you a link to a version of that song. That'd be awesome. Great. Thank you. All right. Well, I'm sure we'll be talking soon, but I really do appreciate your time. It's always such a pleasure. Thank you so much, Sarah. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you too, Cathal. Yes, nice to meet you. Bye-bye, everyone. Bye.