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The main ideas from this information include the importance of humility and its misconceptions in the world. The discussion explores the definition of humility as a lack of pride and a sense of unworthiness, leading to gratitude and meekness. It emphasizes that humility requires intentionality and strength, as well as self-awareness and a realistic view of oneself before God and others. The conversation also touches on the importance of humility in accepting and following God's will and timing, highlighting the need to shift from self-centeredness to other-centeredness. Overall, humility is seen as a means of deepening relationships with God and others, and countering the self-centeredness prevalent in today's society. Surely, the Lord God will do nothing, but He revealeth His secret unto His servants the prophets. How blessed we are to have a living prophet today. Brothers and sisters, the Savior declared, whether by my own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same. Welcome to Conference Chronicles, where we systematically take one conference talk per week from the previous conference and dissect it and learn from it. I'm your host, Taylor Lithgow, and I firmly believe that as we listen to and apply the Lord's teachings through His living prophets, we will fulfill the full measure of our creation and we will be prepared for the Lord at His second coming. So please join with me each week as we take this quest called Conference Chronicles. Hello everybody. Welcome on in to this week's episode of Discuss with Friends. Today I have one friend, aka my wife, again returning for the second time. Hey, Cassidy. Hey, it's good to be back. It's good to have you back. I look forward to our discussion on this week's talk. So the talk for this week is by Elder Joni L. Koch. I think I'm saying his name right, Koch. I looked it up. It's a German or English name. The title of the talk is Humble to Accept and Follow. He starts the talk by quoting from Alma chapter 5, where it says, Could you say, if ye were called to die at this time within yourselves, that ye have been sufficiently humble? It's kind of a piercing question. Alma 5 goes over a lot of those piercing questions in a row. It's kind of heart searching, soul searching. And so with that as the backdrop of our discussion, humble to accept and follow, as I thought of the word humility, I realized that I think it's a very misunderstood word in the world at large. There might be a decent understanding within the church because of the resources that we have, the scriptures we study, living prophets and apostles, but out in the world, if you were to ask somebody, define humility, we'd probably get a lot of different responses and a lot of them might be incorrect. So I kind of wanted to ask you, when you think of the word humility, how would you define it? For me, when I think of describing words in the English language, it's easier sometimes to describe what they are not. What is nighttime? Well, it's not daytime. So similarly, I thought that I would say humility is not pride. It's actually the lack of pride. And I would say that it's a sense of unworthiness, which leads into an immense realization of gratitude. Meekness is a synonym that I could probably throw out there as well. I think meekness and humility sometimes get misrepresented as being mild-mannered or weak. Whereas I think it's more about searching for and being willing to be tamed by the Lord and releasing some of our human carnality for God's will. Yeah, I think that's really insightful. The things that you mentioned actually require a lot of strength. You know, it's easy to go with the flow in the world. It is not easy to, I think as you said, tame your will and be submissive to God's. Yeah, allow yourself to be tamed by the Lord. Yeah. It's not necessarily being mild or passive, you know. Or weak. Or weak, right. Because that's a, I think that might be a lot of the way that some people would describe it. Yeah, I would assume, and maybe me in the past, I would think humility or meekness, or your son may be synonyms, are thought to be doing things against your will, or being like unjustly chastised or, you know, punished even. You need to be humbled, and if you're not careful, God's going to humble you. Sometimes I think it can be used as a threat in just kind of daily talking, and I think it's anything but. Sure. Yeah, the scriptures are replete with examples of people being humbled that haven't been. And I think it's really important, there's verses in Alma 32 where there's a poor people that come to Alma and kind of seek some comfort in him, because they had been cast out of the synagogues by the other people that were professing to be holy that weren't. And so they kind of came to him like, look, we're poor, we've been cast out. And his response was, I can see that your poverty has caused you to be humble, which is good. But it's even more powerful if you just choose to be humble without having been given a circumstance to force you to be humble, essentially. And so I like how your response kind of implied a sense of intentionality behind it. It requires us to be intentional with our actions and with choosing to be humble. I looked at an online definition of the word humility, and it said, a modest or low view of one's own importance. And again, I think even online, I think that's off, I think that's missing the mark. I think that we ought not to have a low view of our importance. We should have a really high view of our importance in God's plan. I see it kind of as like double-sided, though, because to an extent, I see what the definition is saying. And let me know your thoughts on this, too, but of your self-importance, I think, in relation to the world. So many of us strive to be celebrities and influencers, right? And I guess when I hear a definition like that, I'm thinking more of the carnality of it all versus the godliness of it. And that's kind of the point, right? We are so important to God, we are so important to His plan, but we ourselves are not important without Him. Yeah. That's a great way to word it. You're right. I hadn't really thought about that. I'd been more thinking of my eternal identity, you know, being important in God's eyes, but maybe not so much looking or viewing important to other people. And maybe that's what it's talking about. I mean, I guess that's just what I assumed, and maybe part of the reason, if you don't mind, I found this really cool definition, if you will, or kind of story. It was from C.S. Lewis Institute, and it just goes along into what we were just saying. It says, We must admire His humility and want it for ourselves. For this to happen, we need to earnestly and regularly pray for the Holy Spirit to change our hearts, for it is impossible to do it in our own strength. We will also need to understand what Jesus meant when He called men and women to humble themselves. We discover that from the Greek word Jesus and the Apostles used, and I might totally slash this, tapinos, which conveys the idea of having a right view of ourselves before God and others. If pride is an exalted sense of who we are in relation to God and others, humility is having a realistic sense of who we are before God and others. We must not think too highly or too lowly of ourselves. Rather, we must be honest and realistic about who and what we are. As we refuse to be preoccupied with ourselves and our own importance and seek to love and serve others, it will reorient us from self-centeredness to other-centeredness, to serving and caring for others just as Jesus did for us. In the narcissistic culture of contemporary America, this is a particularly powerful countercultural witness of Christ's presence and lordship in our lives. So that, when I read that, I wrote it down. I didn't know if I was going to be able to share it, if it would have been applicable to our conversation today. I wrote it down just so I could share it with you in general, but that to me helps understand more, I guess, the Webster's definition of humility a little bit. Yeah, I think that quote that you read was really insightful. I like that it kind of highlights that humility leads into self-awareness. They both feed off of each other. I think when we're self-aware, we recognize our weakness. We also recognize our strengths. We give credit to where the strengths come from, and it really impacts the way that we view ourselves and also the way we view our brothers and sisters. I think it permeates every interaction that we have with people, not feeling like we're above them, not feeling like we're below them. Not too highly, not too lowly. Right. When we approach it like that, I think that really leads into real human interactions with people, and it allows us to have deeper relationships, of course, with God and our fellow men. Yeah. Yeah, one of my favorite parts from it was humility takes us from self-centeredness to other-centeredness. Yeah. I think that's really what it does. I think that's the whole point. Totally. Which we have a huge lack of in our world today. I see it in myself. You turn on the TV and you see it. You open up a social media page and you see it. Yeah. How much better our world would be if we had less self-centeredness and more other-centeredness, like you said. Kind of shifting gears a little bit, I thought of the name of his talk, Humble to Accept and Follow. Following is a verb, and I wanted to kind of ask you why you think it requires humility to accept God's will and timing. I kind of alluded to it earlier that I think sometimes when life's challenges and tribulations are put in our way that maybe it's just me, maybe no one else relates, but there's a slight part of me or quick thought, whether how long it stays or not, is that it's a punishment. That's obviously not a very humble thing to think, right? I don't even really believe that, but it's just something bad is happening. Something feels like, I'm being punished. Gosh, if I just remembered to fast the last fast Sunday, this wouldn't be happening. We kind of try to justify things to make sense. It really does require daily effort to humble ourselves and be dependent on the Lord. God humbling us really isn't about punishment, but really it's rather about restoration, restoring ourselves to what we should be. God really does know what's best for us, and that includes the timing of it all. A couple of verses that I had researched in the New Testament that kind of go along with that, you're not being punished, and that I really am grateful for the correcting hand of the Lord. Oftentimes, that's through his prophets, right? Some of those are, first one is Job 517, Behold, happy is the man whom God correcteth, therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty. And a similar one, Proverbs 311, My son, despise not the chastening of the Lord, neither be wary of his correction. These few verses in Hebrews, I'm only going to read a couple, Hebrews 12, 5-11, I'm not going to read all of those, but if you're interested in looking them up, it's about the Lord chastening those whom he loves. And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him. For whom the Lord loveth, he chasteneth, and scourges every son whom he receiveth. And I just think those are really beautiful, that you're not receiving these corrections because you're being punished, or because you're doing something wrong, or you're not quite there yet, you're not living up to what he wants you to live up to. It's all about restoration. He's correcting whom he loves, and I think that's a really humbling realization, and it truly is a boost of self-confidence, even. Yes, I thought of that verse in Hebrews as you were speaking earlier, and so I'm glad that you read it. It really is a sign of love, of course. If there's somebody I don't really care about in the world, it doesn't really affect me what they do. I don't have any desire to correct them or provide any feedback. But for people that I love, my friends, my family members, and hopefully I'm increasing my capacity to love more and more people, but correcting or providing feedback becomes a little bit more natural, and hopefully it's received in a spirit of love. And then vice versa, right? We should look at any time somebody provides correction to us in a loving way, because you can either choose to get offended, or you can choose to learn and grow from that. I remember once on my mission, it was in my first probably six to eight months or so, my companion and I were giving a talk in sacrament meeting. We both were, and we finished our talks, and I felt great about it. I felt that the Spirit was with me, that I gave a good message, and we were coming down from the pulpit and from the stand, and a lady came up to us, and she said to my companion, Elder Vette, she was like, Elder Vette, you gave such a beautiful talk. Wow, it really touched me. I'm so grateful for it, and she was kind of going on about how much you liked it. And then she turned to me, and she said, Elder Lithgow, you said, um, a lot. That's horrible, but ... Yeah, my heart honestly sunk. It was like I got punched in the gut. Yeah, she gave you a verbal punch. Yeah, she roasted me, and I let it kind of affect me for maybe two minutes, and then I allowed myself to think about it and pray about it and ponder and say, there's probably a reason why she said that to me. I really must have said, um, quite a few times in order for her to feel the need to tell that to me, and if I want to be a powerful public speaker ... You gotta let go of those ums. I gotta, yeah, switch out the ums. So it's something that I've worked on in my life. I'm not perfect. I still incorporate an um here and there, but her comment sparked something in me and brought to my mind the need to eliminate those ums from my vernacular. And had she not said that, I probably wouldn't have known. Honestly, I feel so happy that she did that. I think that there is some strength. It required strength on her end to do that for me. At the time, of course, I got my feelings hurt, but ... But that's your pride. That's my pride, yeah. And God blessed that woman for saying that to me. So thank you, if you're listening. But just to kind of circle back to the point that you made, God loves us too much to allow us to stay as we currently are. We can never become what He wants unless He withholds certain blessings for a time, or whether He gives certain blessings at His time. And like you mentioned, it requires us to be humble and admit that we don't know best, and we have to be willing to accept His timing and His will. So kind of on the other side of the same token, I wanted to ask you, so the other verb that Elder Koch uses, humble to accept and follow, why do you think it requires humility to follow God's commandments? I think that it requires humility because oftentimes, and maybe in today's world more than ever before, we have this access to information and knowledge, and therefore, frankly, confusion amongst members of the church. And for instance, a big one, I guess kind of a hot topic often is the word of wisdom, and following the word of wisdom. I hear a lot from my millennial peers, what's a cup of tea or coffee going to do? That's so outdated. It's so this. It's so that. And I've read all this information that a glass of wine is really good for you. The Greeks do it, and they're the healthiest people in the world, right? Like all of these types of things, and the word of wisdom is just a small example. I mean, there's plenty of things like that, that I think, again, naturally, our human pride is getting in the way. It's not a very humble way of thinking. And for me personally, when it comes to drinking tea or coffee, you and I have talked about this. I don't get the reasons. The research shows that green tea is great for you, and all this stuff, right? Like I see it. I know it. And before I joined the church, I drank coffee, and I loved it. It was like the best part of my day. It really was. And when I decided to follow the Lord and follow his commandments, I had to chew that one over a little bit, and not in the sense that I wasn't willing to give it up. I was like, okay, I'm giving it up. I don't get it. And I have a feeling it's not going to be revealed to me on why. And I've talked, and I've thrown around jokingly, like maybe it is seriously, there is no quote unquote reason other than obedience. I'm saying don't do this straight out of obedience. And that's actually a beautiful reason in and of itself. And so I think it just requires that humility, being willing to do things for maybe the only reason is to be obedient. Yeah. Obedience requires a lot of humility. Tons. It requires like all humility. Yeah, exactly. You're essentially saying, you know better than me. Yeah. I don't know everything, so I'm going to follow. I'm going to obey. Yeah. And we're trying to become like Christ in this life. And he showed seriously the ultimate example of humility by coming to this earth in the first place. Not even diving into everything he did on this earth, but he was, he was a God. You know, it is God. You know what I mean? But he, he said, yeah, okay, I'm going to be born in a human body. I'm going to leave my glories of heaven and come down and do all of these things, feel ultimate pain, ultimate sorrow, ultimate everything for my brothers and sisters. Like there's the act alone is the ultimate example of humility, let alone all the humble things he did while living on this earth. Totally. You're right. That's a good point that ultimately when I asked about following his commandments, it also just means following his example in general. And you kind of hit on that. He is the ultimate example. Hence the song, come follow me. The Savior says, hence our come follow me manual, right? That we read from all the time. Of course it comes from a scripture, but he's the ultimate example to follow. My story that I kind of told on the lady who corrected me with the ums, it made me think a little bit about one of the stories that elder Koch told in his talk. He explains how he was the boss at a certain business facility and he wanted to take his wife and daughters into his workplace to see what he did. But he also admitted that one of the main reasons why he did that is because he wanted them to see a certain environment where everybody said yes to him and didn't ask questions. Unlike what happened at home, of course. And so he's pulling up to work and he said for the first time ever, there's a security guard outside and the gate does not open when his car approaches. So he's like, what's going on? And the security guard approaches him and says, Hey, where's your ID badge? I need your ID badge in order to let you in. And elder Koch was like, well, I've never been required to show an ID badge before what's going on. And the security guard says, well, I'm sorry, I can't let you in without an ID badge. And then he asks the classic prideful question as he calls it. He asks, do you know who you're talking to? And he actually kind of set the security guard up with like a grand slam opportunity. He responds by, well, actually, no, I don't know who I'm talking to, because you don't have your ID badge. Security guards are savage. Yeah. And he said that he wanted to look in his rearview mirror at his daughters, but he knew they were just gonna be relishing every moment of this embarrassment and his wife had her hand in her face or her face in her hand and was just ashamed by the way he was treating this guy. And so he eventually apologizes and sheepishly drives back home to get his ID badge so he can go to work. And he, he then says something that I really like. He says, when we choose not to be humble, we end up being humiliated. And so I just kind of wanted to ask you, have there ever has there ever been a time in your life that you feel like you've been humiliated because you didn't choose to be humble before? I didn't know I was going to be your guest this week, but you're preparing for your, your Sunday episodes on this talk. And you were, we were talking about this story and, you know, kind of laughing at it. And I remember you asked me that question then. And I couldn't think of anything that I've actually been humiliated for due to lack of humility. That's not to say it's not going to come. And I've definitely been humbled. I've definitely been humbled by the Lord. I've just not, I mean, count my lucky stars, had a chance to be humiliated, you know, by being like prideful in a moment like that, you know, you're talking to, but I guess on kind of a simpler note, like I said, it has nothing to do with being humiliated. But this year, beginning of 2024 has been a very humbling experience for me and honestly for both of us. I was officially diagnosed with Graves' disease, which is hyperthyroidism, it's an autoimmune disorder. And it's been incredibly hard, not only for some of the health aspects, I pride myself on being a healthy individual, I pride myself on, you know, being active and living a normal lifestyle. And this has caused some radical changes in my daily routine as far as what I can and can't do exercise wise, what I eat, what medications I'm all of a sudden taking. I never took medications really before, these types of things. And biggest of all is having to stop our journey in trying to get pregnant. We were under the impression that this year was our year and we were going to be trying and we were going to have a baby by Christmas time this year. It was kind of that mentality and the doctors have said that we need to put a halt on it. And the medication that I'm on to control my heart rate and all of these things is incredibly unsafe for a baby. And in all honesty, there has been moments where I felt kind of briefly angry with God. And the prideful thoughts that I will just share, I've already been through so much in my life. Why this? And now I just can't get pregnant right now. I don't get to have kids. This, this, this, this and this have already happened to me, like seriously. And of course, those are more fleeting thoughts. I don't sit and like dwell on them. And I feel an immense sense of comfort and repentance after even thinking those things and some really beautiful moments have happened. It's funny, you try so hard to be humble and to follow the commandments and to just be your very best. And yet a hiccup in the road, you know, it's not like I'm infertile, thank goodness. It's not a lifelong thing. It's just a, hey, you guys need to wait a little longer before you try to have kids. And yet my first reaction is to be prideful. And so like I said, it's not necessarily humiliated, but it's been really hard. Severance definitely requires humility. Yes. I think this is a perfect example of kind of what we talked about earlier in accepting God's will and timing. Exactly. It's been admirable to see your patience and your humility and your ability to humble yourself and accept that. And it's been just as challenging for me. I mean, of course, not as physically challenging because I'm not going through it, but just mentally and emotionally challenging in terms of the timing of it all. Not being able to start our family, essentially when we want to start our family. Yeah, exactly. Give me what I want when I want it. And that's right now. Yeah. And that's right now. But I have no doubt, just like I would tell a friend that was going through something similar or a challenge themselves. And that's really what it is. Sometimes you just have to talk to yourself as if you're your own friend. Yeah. I know that God's timing is the right timing and his will is the best will. He wants what's best for us. Yeah. And I would say that to a friend and I say it to myself and to you. Yeah. That's a good point. We're a lot harder on ourselves than we are on others, typically. And so anytime we're going through a trial, I think that exercise could work almost every time. Hey, if you had a friend that was going through the same thing, what would you say to them? Well, I would say this. OK, we'll say that to yourself. That's a good point. You kind of alluded to pride earlier and that being the exact opposite or the antonym of humility. And like you said, it also helps me when I'm trying to understand a word better or the meaning of something. Looking up synonyms, also looking up antonyms really helps in understanding that. Similar to how I think humility can be misunderstood in the world, I also think pride can be misunderstood. So I just kind of wanted to talk to you a bit and see your thoughts on pride. Like, how would you define it? How do you recognize pride kind of creeping into your life or into the world, et cetera, those types of things? Yeah, that's interesting. I'd be interested to hear some of your thoughts on how you think it's maybe misrepresented for sure. It's kind of humbling even just right now sitting across from you on the couch and like, how do you notice pride in your life? Because I know good and darn well you know, Taylor, because we're married. And I genuinely notice pride creeping in my life. Probably every day it feels like, and I can't be alone in this. I don't like being told that I'm wrong. I don't like it. And that is so prideful and it can be so stupid, right? I mean, I even think of last night, instead of putting my clothes in the hamper, I put them on top of the dresser and you said, Hey, you said you were going to work on this, putting your clothes in the hamper. And it was just like that little thing, right? You didn't do it in a rude way. You didn't do anything. And I mean, it's not like it caused a fight or anything, but it's like, I don't like being told that I'm wrong. I just don't want you to tell me I'm doing something wrong. And that's just on the daily little bit. And that's the thing is that's just a daily continuous effort. I don't know if the average human being in their life gets completely over pride because it can be so silly and stupid. It's not always like walking around like, I am better than everyone else. I think oftentimes it is the little, the little things, being annoyed that our spouse is giving us a correction or probably our kids giving us a correction. I'm sure teenagers are great at doing that, but that's how I noticed it in my daily life. Totally. Me too. You know, it's, it is the universal sin. Everybody suffers from pride and prideful tendencies and kind of to go back, you said you'd be interested to hear my thoughts on what, how it might be misunderstood. The most amazing talk ever on pride is by Ezra Taft Benson entitled Beware of Pride. And towards the beginning, he says, pride is a very misunderstood sin and many are sinning in ignorance. In the scriptures, there is no such thing as righteous pride. It is always considered a sin. Therefore, no matter how the world uses the term, we must understand how God uses the term so we can understand the language of holy writ and profit thereby. So oftentimes we will say, he's got so much pride in his work. You know what I mean? Or, you know, I'm so proud of my son, you know, those types of things, which aren't inherently wrong to say that, but I think what we're trying to say is we're grateful for them or, you know, I'm proud of my work. Maybe meaning like I've noticed myself grow so much and I've, I've seen my strengths being developed or worked those types of things. And again, I don't think that we're inherently wrong for using that term because I think that I say that too, you know, I'm proud of this or that, but kind of like you alluded to. I think that most people, when they think of pride, they just think of being all puffed a puffed up chest thinking like, Oh, I'm better than everybody else. When really it permeates a lot of areas in our lives. Like for instance, when I read this talk, beware of pride. I wrote down just like a list of things that elder Benson mentions, you know, that could be fruits of pride or side effects of pride. The main one is enmity toward God and our fellow men, meaning hatred towards or hostility to, and we, we see that all over the world for anything, you know, better, you are better. Yeah. And then a lot of the other ones I wrote down, self-centeredness, of course, we talked about that conceit, boastfulness, arrogance, haughtiness, rebellion, hardheartedness, being unrepentant, you know, unwilling to change is a form of pride. Being easily offended, being competitive, you know, oftentimes we think being competitive is good, and it can be good when we use it to motivate us to be better. But if we're constantly comparing ourselves to others, and we're only satisfied if we're better than somebody else, that's prideful, fearing man more than God. These are some interesting ones. Self-finding, gossiping, backbiting, and murmuring are all indications of pride, which a lot I mean, I know that I'm guilty of that, unfortunately, living beyond our means, you know, and I could go on and read a bunch more, but I think it, it just permeates a lot of areas that we don't even really consider. And I think it's misunderstood in the world for those reasons. Yeah, that's really enlightening and makes me want to go reread that talk and really ponder, ponder and think more about where I'm letting pride seep into my life a bit more. How did he word it? Like sneakily? Almost? You don't even recognize it? Yeah, totally. I would also recommend everyone read it. We'll link it in the show notes below. Yeah, for sure. You can click on that and go read the talk. So don't want to be too long winded here. Just in closing, kind of wrapping all of this up, do you have any thoughts for people listening on how to diminish pride? And how do you strengthen their resolve to be humble, you know, in their day to day lives? You have any recommendations for the people, for the good people of the podcast? Yeah, it's going to be a simple answer. But just continuous daily prayer. Yeah. Just praying for it. If you keep it on the forefront of your mind, the forefront of your prayers, perhaps even the forefront of your studies, if you want to learn more about humility and the Savior's example of humility, right, study it. For preparing for this interview with you, I wanted to look up more things on humility, more verses that maybe don't instantly come to my mind more, right? You can, you can take a week and really study humility and understand it and pride. And then just yeah, continuous prayer, keep it on the forefront of your mind. Ask the Lord, help me be humble. And I think that is maybe one of the number one things that everyone can do and easily do. Yes, I agree wholeheartedly. When we pray at the end of every day, we can make a mental accounting of our day. Heavenly Father, here's what happened today. And you start thinking and I guarantee you there will be things highlighted. Yep. That you can change. Totally. Which is good, right? Don't be afraid of it. It's again, it's not like he's angry with us. Change is a beautiful thing. Repentance is a beautiful thing. He chastises those he loves. Exactly. So I love that advice. I all kind of close with my testimony. I know that daily prayer, making that accounting and studying our scriptures with a certain topic in mind, intentionally looking for how can I recognize pride? How can I recognize humility can change us? It will change us. And as we do it consistently day after day, it will be a slow and gradual process. But eventually we will become more humble. Just like with me, I didn't cut out the ums immediately out of my vocabulary. But over time, as I'm more cognitive of it, I get better and better. Right? So I testify that that is true. I know that this is Jesus Christ's church and we are to follow his example. And he was perfectly humble, as you mentioned. And I close that in the name of Jesus Christ, amen. Amen. Thank you everyone for tuning in. I just wanted to remind you all that the links for anything that we reference to, whether it be a talk or scriptures, will be listed in the show notes on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. So you can check those out. Wanted to remind everyone to check out every Sunday episode as well, in addition to these Discuss with Friends on Wednesdays. Thank you, you all. I hope you have a beautiful week and I look forward to talking with you soon. Bye bye. Bye bye.
