Change Chats Episode 03 with Monica Calinescu_V1

Judith Bufing is hosting a podcast episode with Monica Kalinescu, a Gen Zer who has won several change awards. They discuss the importance of authenticity, boundaries, and equity, diversity, and inclusion initiatives in the workplace. They also emphasize the need to prioritize mental health and take care of oneself amidst overwhelming news and changes. Monica shares how her podcast has positively impacted listeners and emphasizes the importance of community and supporting one another. They agree that small wins and disconnecting from the world can provide psychological comfort. They also discuss the multiple roles change professionals often take on, such as being a therapist and coach, and how these conversations can build trust and facilitate change. Hi everyone, and welcome to Change Chats, the podcast to navigating your change management career. My name is Judith Bufing and today we are here with Monica Kalinescu. I'm so excited for her to be here. She is my first Gen Zer on the podcast and I gotta say Monica, I love how spicy and giving boundaries this generation seems to be, and I actually feel like especially we millennials can learn so much from you guys. And with that, I actually do also want to give a shout out to one of my direct reports at work, who honestly just teaches me how to do more things efficiently, and I love it that she isn't afraid to tell me that, I would have never as a millennial analyst. I really think that that's great. Monica is a... Hi everyone, and welcome to Change Chats, the podcast to navigating your change management career. Today, I am here with a Gen Zer and her name is Monica, and I'm really excited to have you here, especially a Gen Zer, because I love how spicy I would say this generation is, and it's giving a lot of boundaries. I also want to give a shout out to my direct report at work, who tells me how to do things more efficiently. Yep, and she's not afraid to say it, which I actually really appreciate. It's not something that we as millennials, I think, do, and I would have never done as an analyst. I would never tell anyone how to do things more efficiently. I would just think it, so... I love it, I love that, shout out to her. Right, big shout out to her. Yeah, big shout out. I love that. I think Gen Z's are so... I love the fact that they bring so much authenticity, and like you said, they're just, they're not afraid to say things, you know, like how they are and call them out and be like, no, I'm not doing that, why should I work, you know, for like two hours when I can get it done in five minutes, this way. Right. I'm going to now introduce you, and I was just joking before, but I'm also a little serious about this, that I had a hard time summarizing everything that Monica's doing, because yeah, she does a lot at her work and also as like all her different side hustles, but who is Monica? She's a Gen Zer who has won several Change Awards already, and her expertise lays in leading organizational change programs, driving culture shifts and developing people's strategies, and particularly focusing on equity, diversity and inclusion initiatives. Yeah, something I think especially now is more needed than ever. We see a shift in the world where they are trying to get rid of some of these, I think, important initiatives. Yeah, I think we've definitely seen the rollback of ED&I programs as a result of the administration in the US, and I think we're definitely going to see an impact across Europe as well, and the influence that this is having, but like you said, Judith, I think it's so important to bring this to the spotlight and to continue to have this conversation. Like, I know it can be doom and gloom sometimes, but I think we just need to remember that we're not the same people that we were 20 years ago. Like, I'm not saying that things can't go backwards, but I think we just need to keep that spark of hope alive, because there are so many wonderful people doing a lot of work, and unfortunately, that doesn't always translate in the media, but they're still out there, and there's still some great people, you know, in the workplace, in our neighborhoods, in our communities, that continue to champion these things, even though they might not label them ED&I, they're still there. So it's hard, but I think it's important that we keep the hope alive. Thank you for saying that. I think that's a nice message, because when you do look at the news and everything that's coming out, and I think also some of the influences in the corporate world from the US, how it's impacting even companies here, just with little things, but like, I can see the effects trickling in. I'm just like, gosh, like we're all doomed, and I miss sometimes the positive, younger energy and the hope that I would have, so it's nice for you to remind us of that, actually. Yeah, I think you're right. When you spend, when we spend a lot of time, obviously, we want to stay informed of what's going on, particularly in the change profession, because we work with people to be aware of, you know, how people are being impacted by all of these things, even outside of the organization as well. It can become very exhausting and incredibly heartbreaking to keep up with everything. I think as part of the resistance, if we want to call it this way, we should also prioritize taking care of ourselves, and that includes our mental health, and sometimes we have to take a step back and stop watching the news. It doesn't have to be all the time. See how we can influence, you know, in our communities. We might not be able to change the world, but if we can change something, you know, in our workplace, where we live, that's still a win, and it's a big win. Yeah, and is that then also one of the reasons that you started your podcast? Yeah, yeah, it definitely was that, and to be honest, when I started my podcast, my goal was just to impact or influence positively one person. If I could influence one person, then all of this work is definitely worth it. And to be honest, to see like all of the number of downloads and people who are listening and then hearing their feedback and their like voice messages and yet on Instagram saying that they, a podcast episode has prompted them to quit their toxic job or to put some boundaries in place, or, you know, it has helped them heal from burnout, wow, like, this is 100% worth it. It's so important for us to, I think, come together as a community, but also give ourselves permission to be authentic and to talk openly about these things, because there's definitely a lot of stigma around mental health, like you said, in these challenging times, it's so important that we have each other, and we lean on each other. Yeah, and especially in when things feel really overwhelming to make sure that you also focus on the things that you can control. And if it's just helping one person, that's still better than nothing, like it helps to get you through the days when everything else seems out of control. You know, when we look at change programs, or changes, change initiatives in the workplace, you know, one of the things that we do as change professionals, we try to identify quick wins, I think we should probably apply the same sort of logic in our lives as well, because we need those small quick wins to be able to just carry on. If that means, you know, spending the weekend offline with your family or with your friends or by yourself, or, you know, with a loved one, and disconnecting from what's going on in the world, then that's amazing. That's your quick win. I don't think as humans, we are, you know, we're going into neuroscience for a second, but brains are equipped to deal with the amount of information that is being thrown at us. Yes, yes, I've heard this a lot. In the workplace, I think there was a study that showed that back in 2016, employees were expected to like experience two planned changes per year, and that has grown exponentially to like 10 planned changes per year in 2022. I don't have any data for 2025. But God knows what it is now with AI and everything. Yeah, there's so much information that people have to absorb, I think actually disconnecting and focusing on the quick wins that we've got in our lives, that could give us some comfort, like psychological comfort. Something that my mom used to say, like there's weeks that I didn't read the news and it would give me some peace. And then, you know, a couple of months later, I would check it because I obviously want to stay informed and nothing had changed, which is another way of looking at it. Yeah, my mom was the same. She would tell me like, I don't want to I don't want to hear about what's happening in the news. It's too much. I just want to decompress at least for a day or two. Yeah, I think back then I was like, Oh my God, why wouldn't you want to stay involved and like hear about everything that's going on? Now that I'm an adult. You have responsibilities. Yeah. And your time crunched. And now I get it. I'm like, Oh my God, of course I don't want to watch the news after work. I'm so tired now. And you're dealing with fires at work and like, you know, office politics and emotions of people, especially I think exchange managers. I tell my team to sometimes feel like we're therapists. I have people calling me sometimes and they're like, I just want to talk to you about this thing. I'm like, okay. Sometimes I'm consumed. I'm like, oof. Yeah, I can totally relate. And I think I hear this from so many change professionals. We feel like we wear so many hats, don't we? You know, one minute you're a therapist, the other minute you're a coach. Now you're a life coach. Okay. Right. And you're right. Like someone would just call you because I think most of us are, you know, we're people, people. Yeah. And normally people would feel, and I love that. The fact that they trust me and they feel comfortable to share that with me. But there's so much that we have to take on as well. When, like you said, they're calling us out of the blue and they're like, Oh my God, I'm so frustrated with this. And you're the only person that would listen to me. Okay. Let me get my therapist hat. And then I have to do all the work I need to do. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But if you think about it, it's these conversations that move the needle when it comes to change. I agree. Yeah. But actually I think builds trust and people feel hurt. It helps with the rapport building. And then the next time you're asking them to do something or to look at it a different way, feel like they're more open to it. Yeah. I also think it's really a gift in this job that like people open up and after a project is done, I will still be invested as well. And I still have the relationship and you can still go for a coffee and lots to go back to like the news and everything. I do sometimes crave even more like switching off because yeah, I feel like I'm giving a lot during the workday. Yeah, of course. Yeah. And then it's really hard as well to avoid it with social media. You know, back in the day we used to consume content like news content on TV and now, you know, it has made its way in our phones and social media and you might not want to consume news content, but it's there. It's on LinkedIn, it's on Instagram, it's in our feeds. Right. And don't get me wrong, like, I think it's brilliant that social media is giving us space to have these conversations because they're so needed. But I think we need to have a conversation at some point around the balance between how do we preserve our mental health so we're strong enough to have these very important conversations, but also stay up to date and not ignore what's going on in the world. I think it's quite tricky to create that balance. It's definitely a conversation that we as change professionals, we need to bring bring it to the spotlight and bring the attention that it actually deserves. Because I think there's so much going on, you know, like parents, for example, they have to think about these things and many, many other things and they're also expected to absorb endless amounts of change in the workplace as well. I think we need to consider, you know, there was this thing in the past where people were like kind of expected to leave their personal lives at the door. Like, that doesn't exist. It's in the album. You can't do that. And I think, I think it's important that we recognize the amount of change, the amount of information, the amount of things that are happening around the world, globally, nationally, in our communities, and take that into account as well, when we think about changes. So sometimes I think we only look at it from the workplace perspective and I'm not saying that, you know, employers should be aware of everything that is going on, but at least things that they're aware of and they're in control of, you know, like maybe think twice before going live, let's say, if there are riots going on in, you know, in that area or in that community or in that country, I don't know. Like, for example, when the war in Ukraine started, I think it heavily affected a lot of people, like psychologically in Europe, because it was so close to us, I think all of these things need to be considered, particularly in such a turbulent political environment that we live in at the moment. Yeah. And I'm thinking like for in our change community in the US, I had someone, her parents were from Ukraine and she just organized like a coming together event when it just happened, just to create space for people. It wasn't even to say something really important, but it was just for people to be there and share how they felt. And I was really thankful actually for my then employee that they gave the space. The other thing is just the acknowledgement sometimes of things, right? We don't, for example, I won't name the specific war, but the specific conflict that's going on and just like, okay, this conflict is going on. We are aware of it. If it's affecting you, like these are the resources that are available. We are not taking a political stance on this, you know, even then there's of course something to be said about, oh, but you should, or you should do that. But even the fact that a company can say, this is what's happening. We know it's affecting people. I think it can do a lot for people because then at least they feel that, okay, they see me, I might have more difficulties like doing a good job, or I might have more difficulties concentrating, but at least my work is aware of it. Yeah. Yeah. I think acknowledging what's going on would definitely go a long way. I feel like we've definitely, I love the fact that we, we started with the intro and we ended up in a very, very deep and nuanced and complex subject. I love it. Let me bring us back then to, uh, the wonderful world of change. And I actually, I would like to go more into your background because you don't have a study of background in change management, curious how you ended up in change and equity listeners, like the very first episode I'm doing with Erica Adams. She's also a change veteran, but she studied the electronic engineering. Oh my God, it was kind of funny, such a coincidence. I've never heard the story. So please enlighten us. Oh my gosh, it's a very, I think my educational past or my career path has been an interesting one. I actually, I mentioned I'm originally from Romania. I came to the UK to study and, um, I decided I'm going to do mechanical engineering, completely, yeah, not related in any way to change management and the world of change management. I think it's because I really, really enjoyed maths when I was in high school, I absolutely loved it. I loved physics as well. Um, but especially maths, absolutely loved it. And I thought, what am I going to do with my life? I don't really know. I kind of went through like the whole circle of, am I going to be a doctor, maybe a lawyer because I watched suits at some point, I wanted to be Harvey Spector for some reason, but I was like, yeah, maybe not. I'm going to give engineering a go because I really like maths. To be honest, when I did my degree, I still loved maths, like absolutely, you know, I'm still in love with it. Like if I could do maths, like just for fun during the weekend, I would definitely do it, like I'm weird like that, but yeah, pause for an awkward moment. Do you do that? Do you do that? Or I used to do that when, back when I had some time, my spare time. Right. We will come to that a little later. But yeah, I did mechanical engineering and when I graduated, I was a bit like, gosh, I don't want, I don't know what I'm going to do because I haven't really found anything that I'm passionate about. Luckily, I did an internship with a wonderful, wonderful company and I had a wonderful mentor and team and manager and I did project work and I've just fallen in love with it. I love the idea of, you know, like being part of something and I think in a way I was involved in change, but I didn't really know it. Like I didn't know change management was a thing. And anyway, in my head, I was like, I'm going to be a project manager or I'm going to do project management work. And I ended up in this like graduate management program with a company in the construction industry. Believe it or not, I actually did some work in a quarry. So I was based in a quarry for a few months. I ended up doing some blasting and yeah, some very weird things when you think about it, given that my career is in change management now, but I was still trying to figure out like what I wanted to do, Judith. I was offered an opportunity to join the project team for centralizing purchase-to-pay processes in an international business service center. And I loved it. Like, I absolutely loved project work, but I've seen, you know, like first time what a project looks like without the support of change management, if that makes sense. Okay. So I was like, Did you already know what it was then? Or did you not put your finger on it? I couldn't quite put my finger on it. Like I remember before I joined the project team, someone told me like, Oh, I think she's looking for like someone who can do like change management. And before the interview, I was like, Googling change management. What on earth is change management? And all I could find online was something like, Oh, change managers must have really good resilience because they're going to lay people off or something like that, you know, like, Oh God, I don't want to be that. No, I don't want to be that. But anyway, I really wanted to join a project because I definitely didn't like the operational side, definitely didn't like engineering. So I was like, I'm going to go into this. It wasn't a change manager role. It was definitely like a project coordinator, project manager type of role, which I enjoyed, but at the same time, I wanted something different. I felt like I needed more responsibility. So I left and I joined a clean tech startup as a project engineer. I think this was my last attempt to see whether engineering is for me. Spoiler alert. It wasn't. Hated it. No, the role was amazing. Like if you've ever, for our listeners, if you've ever worked in a startup, things are running at like 300 miles an hour. Right. So I've learned lots. It was a really, really good experience and I was looking for responsibility and I definitely managed to get that. Like these people were like, right, I'm going to send you to speak to this client and I'm like, Oh, okay, no problem. No promotion needed. Fine. I'm going to, I'm going to deliver this presentation. Thank you for trusting me. So I think I did a lot of like zigzagging in my career in a way. Cause I was like, Oh my God, I don't really know like what I'm going to do. Is it project work? Should I go back to engineering? Do I like this finance world as well? And then I was still in touch with some of the managers at the previous company where I worked in that project coordinator role. And one of them messaged me to say, they've got this change manager, like I think it's called like a change enabler role. And, um, they're like, Oh, like we've got this like change enabler role, would you be interested? And I was like, Oh my gosh, it sounds amazing. Um, and it was like working in digital transformation, like working with IT changes, and I think at some point I really wanted to like explore the tech world. So I was like, Oh my God, change management, all about people and tech. Look at me. I'm going to enjoy this. And I did, I really, really did. It was life changing for me. And I'm so grateful to my manager that he messaged me to ask me if I would be interested in this opportunity because it completely changed the career trajectory for me and my life, like I wouldn't be where I am now doing what I love if I didn't, you know, somehow stumble into this role. So that's how I ended up in change management from someone who had no idea what she wanted to do because she did this degree, but never really enjoyed engineering to now doing something that I absolutely adore. Yeah. Nice. And like, how, how did you feel like, Oh my God, like this is, this is it for me. Did it just click? Was it a feeling or maybe after a certain achievement or? I think you just know when something's right. Um, like when I, before I got this change enabler role and I was in that project engineer role, like the team was fantastic, but I just knew it wasn't for me, you know, when you have that feeling, you know, like that gut feeling that something isn't right, I remember I was. I think I was like attending like an engineering conference in London or something like that. You weren't happy. I can see it from your face. No. I was miserable. Judith absolutely miserable. I was also like the only, I don't know. There weren't many women at that conference, definitely not many women there, like probably like 98% of the people attending were men, which not going to lie is in the best environment to be in, but I know we're still, you know, trying to make progress in particularly in STEM industries. Like I work in construction. I know how male dominated it is. But yeah, I remember I was at that conference and I was like, yeah, I need to make a change. This is definitely not for me. I don't like it. I don't enjoy it. And I think I've realized, like, I think it was straight away, actually, like when I joined in this, like change management role, I, I just loved the opportunity of helping people and having conversations with them and, you know. Helping organizations, but also people navigate these changes. I don't know. It's just, I think I've always, always liked the people side of change. I just never really had the vocabulary or the terminology to say, I want to do change management because I never really knew about it and I think our profession is, you know, like, I'm not saying it's new because, you know, we've got people with like 20 plus years of experience and I think change has always been around. It doesn't think it's as well known. Yeah. Yeah. No. And I think even when I was graduating, I think it maybe just became a course in like in the master's studies, but more like as kind of a track that you could do a course within like a master's or something, but I'm also thinking, um, cause I thought I talked to people as well. I have more experience and they were saying quite a bit. Like I was always doing this kind of work, but it didn't really become a discipline until maybe 15 years ago. Yeah. They say that they've seen the field evolving as well. Like, I think like there was Kotter at some point, but now it's more like ProSize and FCAR. You know, people are really making an effort to, um, yeah, have a professional organization around it, have the certifications, like, um, with the change awards founder, I think she's trying to Margo. Yeah. Yeah. To really make it like a known capability or recognized capability. So that is kind of cool that it is still. I love the fact that we're, yeah. And I love the fact that we're part of it because I would love, you know, like in 20 years time, whether it's going to be on a podcast or not, but you know, I would love in 20 years time to, you know, for both of us to look back and go, wow, we really did this profession. It's so well known. It's so popular. It's like the up and coming, really cool thing that people want to get anymore. I promise. It's not just training. Oh my God. Or like if I caught the comms, then what are you going to do exactly? Like all these change deliverables that I have right here, but yeah. Yeah. I think it's definitely evolving. Like when you look at it, like APMG, they have updated their change management course recently to include things around new science as well. Yeah. Yeah. Change management is definitely expanding and taking more of a, you know, like science-backed approach. Right. Looking at like how we operate now in a very agile environment within organizations. We've got things like lean change as well. You mentioned, you know, ProSci and Adcar and I think we're definitely evolving. And I know, I think we're definitely going to get that recognition and we're definitely going to put the change profession in the spotlight because it's so needed, so, so needed nowadays. It's so needed. And I think there is also a different kind of almost, yeah, specialization. So you can do like tech implementations, but you can also specialize in doing M&A or like leadership development. Right now I'm working on a project that is very much focused on behavioral shifts, which is, it's definitely less tangible than like an IT implementation. Yeah. But it's, it still has like those same core elements, but it's definitely like more abstract. So yeah, it's, it's thinking about how to change behavior and like what's the mindset that we want and how do we nudge people positively so that they do what we would like them to do. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting, like you said, because you kind of apply the same principles. Right. It's just that, like you said, it's less tangible because you can't see it. You don't have a go live, you know, when you're forcing people into a place like this. Yeah, I wish I could use that on the, I won't say it, but yeah, because that would be wonderful. I would love that. But yeah, I definitely think, you know, like whether it's culture change or tech changes or, you know, digital transformations, same things apply. And I think it's very interesting, like particularly in organizations with low change maturity. They tend to think that a digital transformation is tech, that is IT, it's a software deployment. Yeah. And as a change professional, you know, you start there thinking, oh God, this is going to be painful, isn't it? Right. I will have to pick up the pieces once it's live. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I think it's a lot of coaching, like you said, that you have to do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I think it's a lot of coaching, like you said, that you have to do, even in a digital transformation space, because we're the ones that have to create, you know, that relationship with our change sponsors. And it depends, is it a change sponsor that fully understands the role, or do we have to deal with a change sponsor that thinks this is an IT project, not a business project, therefore not interested? Right. Yeah, you almost have to get them along on the journey, too. And then hopefully when it's successful, or they see all the work that you do, and the efforts that you make, and how it brings people along, then they will be like, hey, can you come and help next time? At the end. Yeah. Yeah. I do really actually enjoy that aspect about the work that, yeah, you can show them the value at the end. And at the beginning, they would have been like, I have no idea what you're doing, really. Like, what are you doing again? And then at the end, they would be like, oh, thank you. Like, I really appreciate how you showed me, I don't know, how to think about the end user, which to me is common sense. Yeah, yeah. And I do, I genuinely, I do feel for the execs, particularly, like, because they end up being, you know, a change sponsor, like that executive sponsor. I really feel for them, because they have to run a business, but like, their jobs have changed massively. They've transformed in the past few years, because of the amount of change that is happening within organisations. Now, they have to move from doing a lot of operational work to spending half of their time thinking about how to run their business, and half of their time leading change. And somehow, even though this shift has happened in the role, no one's given them the training, no one's taught them how to lead change. You kind of just push them and we're like, okay, good luck. That's very true. Yeah. Yeah, so maybe it's almost not fair to expect that they even know what we do. I think we all, we're all winging it sometimes, aren't we? We're all trying to fake it till we make it. But I think there's definitely a need for training, not just for the change sponsor, although I think they're so instrumental and so crucial when it comes to the success of a transformation or a change. That's why I would think I would start with them. Yeah. If we want to build change capability, but obviously, it's the people impacted by the change that are going to make it happen. Yeah. You know, it's the line managers, the people managers that need to know what's happening. I think it's so important because we've got a lot of organisations that are top down, aren't they? I mean, I would love for more organisations to be more collaborative and be bottom up. Most of them are top down. So we need to make sure that the people at the top have an understanding of change management and they know how to lead through change and not just leave it until we go live and then everyone panics and they're like, what is this? I've never heard of it. Can you do some comments for me? Yeah, yeah. I need it tomorrow. Yeah. Can you send out this email on my behalf? That would be great. Thank you very much. It's actually a conversation that you need to have. I don't have the time. Well, you're going to have to make the time. Right. I don't have many examples, but yeah. So what is the thing that keeps you going in this? I know you said you really like the people side of change, but if there's one thing that you can name, what inspires you to stay committed in the field? I think it's the ability to make a difference. Hmm. I think it's the fact that, I don't know, once I stepped into this change manager role, I looked around me at other roles and other people and what other roles are available within the organization because I want to progress. Yeah. And I was like, I don't want to be in a different role. I don't want to be in operations. I think a lot of the roles, and I'm not saying there's something wrong with it, but a lot of the roles, you kind of work in your business area, in your department. Right. A lot of like BAU and you do something which is so meaningful. Like if you work in payroll, it's because of you that people get paid, which is brilliant. So I'm not saying it's not meaningful work. But something that I love the most about being a change manager and working in change is the fact that I get to work on programs that impact the whole organization. Yeah. I get to know what's happening across the whole organization. Yeah. And I get to speak to so many people and I can see the tangible impact that my work is having, whether it's on people, on systems, generally on people. And I love the opportunity to work on things that are going to impact people's lives in a positive way. Right. So I would say that keeps me going. But it's also the community, the change community. Yeah. Shout out to all those change people. Shout out to all of them. It is true. Like we are very nice to each other. And supportive. Honestly, it's such a wonderful community. Look at us. That's very true. We've met through Women in Change as well. Right. Yeah. I'm just so, I don't know. I'm so blown away by how kind people are. And a lot of people that I've met in the change community, like when I started my role in change management, like my first official change manager role, I joined the Change Management Institute because I was like, I really want to find people working in the change space. Like I didn't know anyone. So I joined the Institute and I remember I was so worried to join this networking call because I knew that another person with like literally two months of experience and there's probably going to be people with like 15 years of experience. Are they going to even want to talk to me? And they did. Yeah. Surprisingly, at that time for me, they did. Yeah. You know, I've made friends and mentors and I'm just blown away. Like now I'm a volunteer with the Change Management Institute and it's the best thing I've ever done because that's how I've managed to get introduced to the Women in Change community. It's opening doors. It's opening a lot of doors. Yeah. Hundred percent. Yeah. A hundred percent. So I think it's, yeah, the ability to make a positive impact through my work. And the Change community. Honestly, the coolest people ever. Right. Yeah. And like, I feel like a lot of people in the Change community have side hustles. Yeah. I find that very inspiring because yeah, I was like toying with this idea and then I had a couple of others as well. And I mean, even with you, I was like, oh, she's doing a podcast. Maybe she can help me. And you were like, yeah, sure. I can set up a call with you and like tell you everything that I know about it. Yeah, of course. And it was so easy. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I think you're right. It's probably the fact that normally the people in the Change community, they all have different backgrounds. Someone might come from a psychology background. Right. Someone might come from like a learning and development background. Yeah. Someone used to work, you know, maybe they were a teacher in a school. Yeah. I come from engineering, like totally unrelated. Right. I know people who are psychiatrists and stuff like that and decided to join Change Management. It's such a wonderful community. And you're right. All of them, they have all of these amazing side hustles. You know, they might be doing like leadership development and leadership coaching and being the head of change for a company. And I'm like, wow, when do you do all of this? Well, let's actually get to that because you do a lot as well at work. And then also all like the side things. You have the podcast. You have your full time job. You work at Change Management Institute. I'm probably forgetting a couple of things. But how do you do it? The short answer is I don't know. I don't know how I do it. Okay. I think it's because maybe it's the ADHD in me. I get so excited. And I know we were talking about this earlier. I get so excited about things that I'm very passionate about. And I love saying yes to things. Yeah. I'm also very passionate about getting things done as well. So I would work some very unhealthy hours and some very unsocial hours sometimes to get it done. Right. But I love the end result. And that's what's driving me. Yeah. I think, look, I definitely had my fair share of burnout. It's not great. But sometimes you have to, you're the only person that knows your limits and your boundaries. And sometimes you kind of have to experience things yourself in order to become better at saying no or setting boundaries. This is definitely something that I'm currently working on, on becoming better at setting boundaries. And it's definitely a work in progress for a lot of people. Yeah. But I think sometimes you just have to prioritize what's really important for you. Right. I started a podcast. I was loving it. I set this goal of releasing an episode every two weeks, totally unrealistic. I had to stop. Yeah. And I'm, you know, I'm not ashamed of that. I think I was at the beginning. Yeah. I was like, oh, I failed. I haven't done what I wanted to do. But actually, I'm looking back and I'm thinking, you have achieved what you wanted to achieve. You wanted to help one person. You did. Right. You already got voice messages, people sending you messages, people still downloading your podcast right now, even though you're not releasing anymore. Yeah. Yeah. So it probably depends, like, what is that success measure that you put in place at the beginning? Yeah. I think now I'm getting to a stage where my personal time is kind of sacred. Like, I'm taking it more seriously. Yeah. Like, I'm taking time, you know, offline. I'm taking time when I'm disconnecting from social media, whether it's like LinkedIn, Instagram, TikTok. I think that's helping me to stay focused and, like, work on all of the, like, different things I'm doing. I think that's the only way that you could do it. It's just, like, prioritize. Look at how much time you've actually got and how much time you can actually dedicate towards things and be realistic. Yeah. The hardest thing to do, I find it myself, is to say no to something that you know you're going to enjoy. Right. But you have to be realistic with how much you can actually take on. Yeah. Yeah. And I listened also to your episode about people pleasing. That was a really good one. Oh, yeah. Certified people pleaser here. And I also heard that you were writing down the list of the things that they said that you should pay attention to. So it's sometimes something that we constantly need to remind ourselves of. Yeah. Yeah, it's very interesting. I can't remember who said that to me, but, like, people pleasing pleases no one. It doesn't pleases that person. Right. It doesn't please you. Because you're going to end up super resentful and super burnt out. Yeah. Definitely, definitely not a great combo, especially if you want to do amazing things when you have huge aspirations. It's hard, I think, especially when you're at the beginning of your career, you want to say yes to things. You want to prove yourself. You want to make a good impression. Yeah. I think we probably need to spend more time to show people that you can achieve all of the things that you want to achieve while setting healthy boundaries. You don't have to work insane hours. You don't have to, you know, you don't have to do 700 things at the same time. Right. Yeah. Well, and also maybe, like, enjoy, like, the fact that you won, like, another Change Award. Like, are you able to then enjoy that as well for, like, a couple of months and really feel proud of yourself? And... Do you know what? Actually, I was looking at, like, the difference in my mindset and attitude. Like, last year, I was honored to receive the Women in Change Awards. And I think I was over the moon. I was so excited. I was so happy about it. But, like, a few days later, I was like, what's next? What do I need to do? I don't think I got to, like, enjoy it as much because I was already making plans and raising the bar again and thinking about what I want to do next. I think this time around, probably because of therapy and, you know, like, I'm growing as a person. Yeah. This time around, when I've won, you know, the Future Inspiration Award or the Change Awards last week. Gosh. Right? That's crazy. Last week. Like, I'm still positive. I'm still buzzing. I think you're right. Like, I am giving myself time to process all of this and celebrate it and enjoy it. You know, I think I'm prioritizing time with my friends now more and time with my partner. I think that's why I said, like, it's a work in progress. I still find myself slipping, you know, on those boundaries sometimes, but I think I'm definitely getting a lot better at saying no, a lot better at making sure that, you know, I'm spending more time with my friends, with my partner. It was actually, like, earlier this year where I didn't burn out, but I was having a conversation with my mentor and I was like, oh, God, like, I'm definitely not enjoying life lately. Work is so busy. I've got so much on. And it was around the time when I broke my foot and I was in the house for, like, two months or something ridiculous like that. Didn't really leave the house. And she was like, OK, let's she took a very interesting approach with me because she's a coach. That's why she's amazing. And she was like, OK, so let's let's have a look. What is really important for you? And I was like, oh, OK. That's an interesting question. It's just like, yeah, I want you to think about what's important for you in terms of life. So not just career wise. What's really important? What makes you happy in life? What do you need? What's your, like, non-negotiables? So, like, one of those things where, you know, I take a lot of energy from spending time with my friends, with, like, people in the change community, with my my partner as well. I love going for walks. I love, you know, like, I don't know, going out for coffee or enjoying dinner. Like, I love food. And for me, I love cooking. I love going to a restaurant and taking my time and enjoying those wonderful dishes that people are making. And I didn't do that and do any of it. I didn't take any time off because I was stuck at home for two months. I didn't really go for walks. I didn't really meet with my friends. So I was definitely missing on that side. And paired with, you know, heavy workload, that definitely wasn't a great combo. But when I had that conversation, it was almost like an eye opener for me. And I was like, wow, OK, I never realized how much I actually need all of these things. And I kind of I made a conscious decision afterwards. After, you know, I started feeling better and my food is OK now. I made a conscious decision that, you know, at the end of each day, even when I'm working from home or even when I'm in the office, I'm going to go for a walk. Even if it's five minutes, I'm going to spend some time outside. I'm going to make time to speak to my friends. It got to a point for me when my friends would call me and they'll be like, I know you're super busy, but I just want to tell you this. And I'm like. I don't want my friends to call me and say, I know you're super busy and start with that. Yeah, exactly. And I love my friends so much and my family. I want them to know that I really cherish these moments with them. And I want them to know that I appreciate them and I appreciate the fact that they want to share things with me. I don't want them to think that they're a burden and that work or something else is more important. So I think that completely that conversation actually really changed my perspective. And I think ever since, you know, for a few months, I've been doing a lot better when it comes to, you know, dealing and juggling, you know, all sorts of things. Like I'm hoping to bring my podcast back to life as well. I think now I'm being a bit more. Gentle and more kind to myself. Yeah, not, you know, I used to set goals in a smart way. I mean, I have a goal. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But now I'm being a bit more flexible with them. You know, it doesn't have to be go live on the 1st of July. What's stopping me from moving into September? Yeah. Okay, then. Brilliant. Yeah. Yeah, and I think like, I mean, so I left a little bit because I'm like, oh, like marks and then five minutes. We can say that's a quick win. That is a quick win. Yeah, but it becomes so much more I find like a five minute thing is more digestible than like, oh, my God, I need to work out like one hour every day. Yeah, like once I just started to do five minutes, then it's easier to make it 10 minutes and then up to 15 minutes. And like, when I work from home, me and my husband, sometimes we go a little, we take a little walk around the block, even if it's just two minutes. Yeah, it's just helps so much. I'm building in the habit. I think that's how sometimes you create then these habits that you will work into your work week. And then I think without realizing for a little bit, then after a while, you're like, I'm like walking every day. Exactly. Like, it has so much impact on your mood. And I think also your productivity is great. 100% 100% like, you know, you need someone to you need someone to tell you that sometimes. So, yeah, yeah, you always need someone to call you out on the things because we're so wrapped up in everything that's happening in our lives, right? To the point that I think I remember I joined a call and I said to her, I've got so much on, like, there's nothing that I can drop off. And she was like, really? That is still a decision, you know, still a choice that we make when we say, yeah, I've got so much on. There's nothing really I can drop at this moment, right? I think there are things that we can drop off. Yeah, yeah. And it's okay. It's okay to make the decision. It's okay to advocate for yourself. It's okay to go in there and be like, I'm at full capacity. I can't do all of these things. Yeah, I mean, they might listen to you. They might not. But I think you owe it to yourself to advocate for yourself. If you know your capacity, you're overworked, you need more time, you need more space. And even in your personal life, you know, when we talk about side hustles. Yeah, we have to be realistic with what what we can do, you know, whether it's a podcast or volunteering or I don't know. I love doing social media content. Yeah, I promised myself at the beginning of this year, I'm going to post three times a week on LinkedIn. I did that. Is that what you're doing? I did that. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much. Yeah. But look, like I haven't posted anything in the past week, past couple of weeks. And that's fine. I'm genuinely I think I got to a stage now where I'm not being that harsh with myself anymore. Good. Yeah. And I'm allowing myself to take a break. Yeah. I'll come back in a week or so. Yeah. Because I know I'm going to be re-energized and I'm going to recharge my batteries and I'm going to come up with amazing content that I actually care about. And it's aligned with my values and everything because I've taken the time off. I think rest is so underrated. Right. So important. So important. Yeah. I have sometimes days where I'm like, I'm really looking forward to just go to bed early. Right. Oh, my God. 15 year old me would hear that. I'll be like, oh, lame. Right. Well, and I used to enjoy packing up my nights with like, like absolutely everything that I could. And I still look, I'm still like, oh, I'm going to do this and this when I get home and like read a book and like educate myself and edit a little bit of my podcast and I come home and I'm just destroyed. And yeah, go to bed. So I would say I probably still overestimate, but I'm also not hard on myself if I don't just sleep and then I wake up and I'm so good. Yeah. Yeah. And you're probably going to have more energy to do the things that you want to do. If you give yourself that break. Yeah. Yeah. It was actually one of my mentors that years ago he told me something like work life balance is so important. I think at that time I didn't really pay attention to his advice that much because I was like, oh, I'm going to work 90 hours a week to prove how good I am. Don't do that. Yeah. Bad advice. Right. But it is very hard, right? When you're just starting and you don't have the experience to, I don't know, process that, I think. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But I remember like he used to, he used to tell me that he used to work really long hours as well. But the reason why he was working really long hours wasn't because he was so productive and he would be doing loads of things. He was so tired because he was taking the break longer. Yeah. Actually, if you were to take the break that you need and your body needs and your mind needs as well, it'd probably take you less time to do all of the things that you want to do. Very true. Yeah. Yeah. I think sometimes we just have to listen to ourselves, like to our intuition, to our bodies. And I think now I've got a lot better doing that. Like I can feel it. I can feel it when they say, gosh, I'm not saying don't work late. Like if you have to, I think we all do it, don't we? Yeah. I do it as well every now and then. But don't make it an everyday thing. Don't work every evening. Don't work every weekend. That's when it becomes a problem. But I got to a point now where I can tell when I'm, you know, tired and when I'm, you know, heading towards being a bit exhausted, I'm like, okay. Yeah, exactly. I'm like, okay, I need to hit the brakes and I need to make sure that I do more things that, you know, replenish that energy that I'm missing at the moment, you know, and whether that is watching a comfort show, going for walks, you know, switching off, making sure I log off, you know, by six o'clock and stuff like that. Yeah. Doing less content on LinkedIn because I'm exhausted. That's okay. Yeah. Yeah. Is that also advice you would give to other change Gen Zers in their career? For sure. I think not just Gen Zers. I think everyone. Everyone. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely everyone. I think honoring your intuition, listening to your body and actually rest. Gosh, that's going to do you wonders. Right. Right. Yeah. I'm just like thinking out loud here because on the one hand, and of course, like we're generalizing here, but like Gen Zers are really good at the boundaries and just telling people what they think and not be ashamed about it. But I'm actually like now thinking on the other hand, like I'm thinking of some of the people that I work with, they do a lot of different things. And so now I'm thinking, do they really know some boundaries? I don't know. Yeah. I think they're blurred aren't they? I think, yeah. Obviously it depends. It depends on the person. I used to, yeah, I used to think, I think I'm probably more of a, like an older Gen Z. So I do relate sometimes to millennials as well, but I'm somewhere in between. Right. I think there's a difference between like pre COVID people who have joined the workforce pre COVID and the Gen Zers that have joined the workforce after COVID as well. Yeah. Because they've experienced like different ways of working as well. But look, I think I can see it. Like people in within my generation, people younger than me as well. They're so outspoken. Yeah. Genuinely like. Yeah. I'm, you know, I'm looking at like people younger than me and they're like, oh yeah, of course I'm going to say no to this. I've got no capacity. They're going to have to prioritize what, what they want me to work on. And I'm like, wow, holy shit. That's sorry. I'm like, wow, that is, that is amazing. Like, I wish I had your confidence when I finished uni to be able to say that. So I think that they're definitely more outspoken, definitely more aware of these things. Definitely more. I think it's also the fact that they've got the language and the terminology to use when it comes to mental health and they can describe the things that they're feeling a lot better than other generations. Yeah. Yeah. And look, I think we're quite privileged for Gen Z as a generation with millennials that have also paved the path for us. Gosh, millennials didn't, you guys didn't have it easy, did you? Like so hard. So, so hard. I think this is a slow change when you look at it, isn't it? Like change. Yeah. Yeah. If you look at it in the context of the workplace, we definitely see a change in how generations are approaching work and their boundaries. I think we're going to see that even more with Gen Alpha when they're going to be joining the workplace soon. Yeah. But I don't think we're immune to it. I don't think Gen Z are immune to these things. Right. I know a lot of people who are very good at setting boundaries and, you know, they're younger than me as well. And they've also burnt out because they're doing, you know, like you said, five, six different things at the same time. Or maybe they also got into this mindset that they want a promotion and they want to prove themselves and they want to show their capabilities or, you know, they want to do, even if you look at it from the point of they want to, let's say, start a career as a content creator, but also juggling a full-time job. That's also really hard. Right. Really, really hard. Yeah. And it's very easy to burn out. Yeah. I don't think burnout is, you know, only exclusively available to Millennials, Gen X, Boomers. Right. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. I think it affects Gen Z. If burnout's in a different way, maybe. Yeah. I don't know what it is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think so. Yeah. If you think about, like, going back to change management career and, like, giving, I call this, like, what's a change smart move that you would recommend to any, any practitioners, regardless of their age, their experience, and even thinking, like, also for people that might just want to transition into this field. I think it's very easy. And I talk a lot about it. I think a change, you know, a smart move would be to find your community. I think my career has changed massively when I found the courage to put myself out there. Yeah. For me, it was to join the Change Management Institute. Yeah. And then to start volunteering with them and to build those relationships and, you know, to build that network and the connections that I've got today. Yeah. I think, like I said before, I wouldn't be here. I wouldn't know, you know, the women in change community. I wouldn't know you if it wasn't for me joining the Change Management Institute, you know, years ago. Right. I genuinely think this is such a wonderful community and it's so warm and so wonderful and so welcoming. Yeah. Your career is just going to flourish the moment you join that community because everyone is so nice. Yeah. And they all want to help each other. Yeah. Even if you want to do a sidestep or you want to change industries or you want to change companies, there's always going to be someone there to help you. Yeah. Or even if it's, you know, you don't want to change industries or jobs, even if it's a, you know, I'm really struggling with this or I've got this very, I don't know, difficult stakeholder. Yeah. That I'm managing. What would I do about this? Yeah. I have so many, like, conversations with people and it's just so nice. I think. Right. It makes time, at least. I try every week, if not every two weeks, I will have a call with someone from the change community, even if it's like for half an hour, 45 minutes. I love staying connected and learning from other people. And I think that the field is, I mean, like we said, it's not that old. So yeah, sometimes it's good to exchange how your company versus someone else's company with different maturity levels to exactly are approaching things because yeah, there's a lot of things that are just not out there that are readily available other than other people that work in the same field. In the same field, just having, I also do think it's important to look outside of your company of how people approach things, because otherwise you get a little bit of tunnel vision. Then 100% and you get stuck into that. Oh, this is how things are done here. Right, right. Yeah. That might not be the right thing to do to do things. Yeah. I think definitely find your community. That is the best thing that you could do. And that's the thing that completely changed my career. Yeah, crazy. I think I'm the one last question and then I have to go home. Yay. Hello. Do I have to go? No, you can stay. Okay. I will leave in 10 minutes. Okay, bye. They're like, why are you still here? Yeah, she's very, very keen to get this thing done. I'm probably the only one in the building. I don't know if you saw that, like the lights have been going on and off and on and off and on and off. To be honest, I did notice and I realized, oh, my gosh, it's getting dark in here as well. And we have automatic lights, they just switch off. And like, only if someone walks by. That makes me, I need to quickly check the traffic. Because my husband wants to go to church. For Easter. What, tonight? Yeah, he's Greek Orthodox. He's Greek Orthodox. So. Oh, my gosh. This is a very important week for him. And he is taking care of the kids. But I told him, I promised him I would be home by 10. And I look at the clock and I'm like, oh, my God, we've been talking for two hours. Crazy. Yeah. It's nine years. Eight for you, I think. Yeah. Yeah. I was just thinking about you and how much time it's going to take you to edit this. I might cut it into half because I have promised to my listeners that the episodes would be about 45 minutes. Yeah. Yeah. Last question. Just let's wrap it up. Okay. Yeah. So last question. And I will probably edit this somewhere in between because I don't really want to leave on a negative note, but I do actually really want to know if there ever has been a time in your career where you really struggled in change management and you were like, oh, I don't know if I still want this. Yeah. Not having change management, like I didn't struggle with the profession. Yeah. I'm still like, I'm still in the honeymoon period. I still love it. Absolutely love it. You will have some some lows at some point. Oh, gosh. Oh, gosh. Okay. No, not with change management, but I think the thing that I struggle with in my career is saying yes to way too many things. That's the part I really struggle with. And I burned out a couple of times because of it. And it wasn't great because, you know, I found myself spending a couple of weeks rotting on the sofa. But that's what I needed to recover. You needed that. It is what it is. Right. Yeah, I think, look, it's definitely, you know, we talked about change managers sort of like being therapists and taking all of these different roles. Obviously, it takes a toll on your mental health, especially when you have people who are so against the change, maybe, you know, for valid reasons, but you can't really do much about it. Yeah, it definitely takes a toll on our mental health, which is why it's so important that we give ourselves time to process all of these things and we don't say yes to 700 different things to do. So we've got the time to recover. There's definitely like things in change management that can be hard and difficult. But yeah, the thing that I struggle with the most is setting boundaries and saying no. Yeah, I've always, I think I've always struggled with it. One, because I'm a people pleaser. Two, because I really want to experience all of these amazing things. And I want to be involved in all of these great things. It's really hard. Yeah, but you have to do it for the sake of your mental health. You have to do it. You have to say no. Yeah, you have to say no. And also, I think to be a better change manager, and because you already manage, I think, a lot of emotions that are involved in projects, it's even more important, I think, almost to make sure that you're mentally strong. Yes. So that you can show up for the people that you're working with. But of course, most importantly, for yourself too. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Thank you so much for all of this. Thank you. Oh, my gosh. I loved it. It was so nice. It was so, so nice. All right. Well, where can people find you? Oh, definitely on LinkedIn. That's where I'm the most active at the moment. It could be Instagram, but definitely LinkedIn. So if you search Monica Kalinescu, you're going to be able to find me. You're going to see my little videos as well. Yay. And if you want to listen to Real and Unapologetic, you can also find, I think you can find it everywhere. Apple Podcasts, Spotify as well. I've listened to it on Apple and on Spotify, but I will make sure I link it as well. Thank you. Thank you so much. I loved it. I love that conversation. Me too. Thank you. Thank you so much. I did forget to mention this, but I've been fangirling a little bit about having you on this podcast. So thank you so much for being here, offering your experience and your perspective and, yeah, your thoughts. I loved it. So thanks. Oh, my gosh. I'm fangirling now. You are so amazing, Judith. I love this podcast. I can't wait to listen to it. I'm quite privileged for the fact that I got to listen to a few episodes before. But yeah, I love it. You're doing such an amazing job with everything, you know, Women in Change, the podcast. Just make sure you look after yourself. I will. That's why I have to get the hell out of here. Yes. Yeah. You have to leave now. Yeah. I'm going to stop the recording. Amazing. But no, thank you so much. Hi, and welcome to Change Chats. My name is Judith Buving.