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Q1-19880716-Larry_Rosenberg-UNK-questions_and_answers-1554 Leandra Tejedor (1)
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Talk: 19880716-Larry_Rosenberg-UNK-questions_and_answers-1554 Leandra Tejedor Start_time: 00:37:05 Display_question: Are there different kinds of investigation in vipassana meditation? Keyword_search: investigation, fear, vipassana, concentration, thinking, pausing, samadhi, wisdom, direct perception, intuitive, reflection, impermanence, attachment, dogma, ideology, suffer, pain, arising and passing away, sensations, body, microscope, heart, sensitive, Forest School in Thailand, apana samadhi, calmness Question_content: Questioner: I had a question, and wondered if you thought there was any difference between the investigation that you talked about, across from the value of fear, and investigation in terms of vipassana? Larry: They both are… yes, there are different kinds of investigation. Some of you, I don't know… what Rob is referring to is, seeing an old restaurant, that had been a place that people would went to, that I went to a lot, and had become a hangout. And then you come back for many years, and it had been in Cambridge for a long time, long before I got there. And you come back, and suddenly, the same space is occupied by a very different kind of setting, a very fashionable dress shop, totally different, and this exact same space. And it was a bit of a shock. And then calming the mind, going as deeply as I was able to, and then taking that in with me, sort of mixing whatever level of concentration that I had, with this, because it was affecting me, and I was really experiencing what it was working on me, these two events, being so close together, happening in the same place. Break_line: And there, though, what it was, was reflection. It had thinking in it, a fair amount of thinking, and churning, and then pausing, and then an emotion would be aroused, and then a kind of an idea, and a glimpse. I would say it's somewhat deeper, than just ideas. And it's a kind of reflection that had more depth than it would have had. It had more depth, because it had a bit of samadhi in it. Another…a deeper…and it's the application of wisdom. It's wisdom at work. A deeper level of wisdom is when there are much deeper levels of samadhi, and it's direct perception. It's not really thinking, it's intuitive. Break_line: That is…that was a reflection on impermanence, and change, and it was very helpful, to me. It really, in some way, gave me a sense of how things are. And, one reason those kinds of events are helpful, is that it helps you get your values in order. That is, you start to see, this is really the way things are. It also teaches about attachment. Now you can’t… impermanence helps us in our practice, because the degree to which you see that everything is changing, is the degree to which it becomes foolish to get attached to anything. It's unintelligent. It's not a dogma, or an ideology. If everything is changing, if the world is really changing, and you get fixed on something, it's a setup. We have to suffer. We must. So it helped me along those lines. Break_line: But now, supposing I was sitting, and no real ideas, and I just… there's a part of the body and it's painful, and painful feelings, let's say uncomfortable. And then I aim my attention at it. I'm not thinking anything. And suddenly I begin to see the arising and passing away of pulsations, that the pain is not a solid thing. Literally see it, feel it, and throbbing is, what seemed to be pain, P-A-I-N, is made up of a very rich field of, arisings and passings away, of sensations. And you get the impact of, that the body isn't as sensitive. It's like having an electronic microscope. You look at one thing, and it has one level of reality, which is true at that level, and then suddenly you're given an intensification, of seeing, and you see that what seemed to be solid is nowhere near solid. It's a very alive field. That's a deeper kind of wisdom. Now, one reason that it's deeper, or it can be deeper, is that it can have an impact on the heart, that's much deeper. The heart can really get it. It can be more conviction. Oh, see, we're getting…we’re learning about impermanence, a lot, all over the place. But the level at which we take it in, is still relatively superficial. Either because the heart is blocked, or the seeing is blocked. It's usually they're the same thing. Does that make any sense? Questioner: Yeah, but haven't there been times in this retreat when you suggest an investigation, without the prerequisite, for the depth of stillness, that you're talking about? Larry: Yes. Questioner: It’s still, in the moment, a skillful, a skillful technique, in the midst of meditation. Larry: Yes, that's what I was trying to say a couple of evenings ago. We don't have to wait. Let's say… this particular teaching, is strongly influenced by the Forest School, in Thailand, as some of you know. And they emphasize a lot of developing samadhi. And in more technical language, feel is a very good thing if you can come to apana samadhi, which is a very deep form of samadhi. But, as I hope I got across a few evenings ago, it's not saying that you have to wait, until you get to apana samadhi, to use wisdom. Wisdom and calmness develop alongside each other. And so, you muster up whatever wisdom you have, when you need it, and it does the work it can do, and it's helpful. And then, as the wisdom, and the calmness grow, well, then you have that to work with. So, it's not like we're waiting for perfection of samadhi where they're both going together. But there are times, like in a retreat like this, it's an excellent opportunity to develop samadhi. Because look at all the support we're giving each other, to stay with that one object. It's harder to do, until you get the knack of it. If you were home reading it from a book, just be with the breath, and when your mind leaves, to come back. Okay, great, I'll do that. It's very hard to do that, for most of us. So here we're just, you know, ad nauseam. End_time: 00:43:09
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