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The Inclusive Occupations Podcast features co-founders Amrita Sareen Thak and Kaya Duggan of BetterEd, focused on disability advocacy in schools. Amrita transitioned from a Wall Street banker to promoting equity in education, while Kaya's journey began when her son was diagnosed with Cerebral Palsy. Together, they aim to reshape school mindsets on disability through Better EdGuide, offering workshops to build inclusivity. Their acronym BETTERED stands for battling stigmas, embracing differences, transforming thinking, teaching future leaders, eliciting action, and recognizing strengths. They emphasize the importance of viewing disability as a natural part of human diversity and advocate for its integration into education to promote inclusive environments. Their work addresses historical barriers and promotes a shift towards recognizing disability as a valuable aspect of identity. Schools play a pivotal role in shaping students' perceptions and values, making it crucial for them to prio Welcome to Inclusive Occupations Podcast. Today I'm thrilled to be joined by two incredible changemakers, the co-founders of BetterEd, B-E-T-T-E-R, EdGuide. First meet Amrita Sareen Thak, whose journey into disability advocacy began in 2019. With roots as a Wall Street banker, Amrita has since dedicated her career to fostering equity in school communities. She is a published writer on ESG, which stands for Environment, Social Governance, and Impact Investing, a member of Washington DC's Capital Speakers Club, and on a personal note, a passionate runner and freelance business journalist living in Bethesda with her husband and kids. Joining her is Kaya Duggan, a longtime ally and advocate whose personal path was shaped when her son was diagnosed with Cerebral Palsy in 2011. Nearly a decade later, she's been delivering disability awareness education in K-4 classrooms, volunteering with para-athletic organizations, and lending her voice to multiple DEI efforts. With a background in marketing and product management, Kaya lives in Harrison, New York with her husband, three children, and their dog, Millie. Both Amrita and Kaya are working towards their Masters in Disability Studies and Education. Together, Amrita and Kaya launched Better EdGuide and initiated to transform how schools understand and integrate disability awareness, offering tailored curricular workshops and immersive experiences to build inclusive mindsets. Welcome Kaya and Amrita. I'm just so honored and thrilled to have you here in Inclusive Occupations Podcast. I want to begin by hearing more about your journey. What led each of you to the work you're doing through Better Ed, and what personal and professional experiences inspired this journey? Well, first of all, Sunita, thank you so much for having us on your podcast today. We're excited to be here. We've seen some of your work and we're excited to be able to collaborate with you. When my son was diagnosed with a disability, I thought about how I grew up. My earliest recollection with disability was growing up within the Brooklyn public school system, where kids with disabilities were segregated and labeled into special ed. Now, I was never mean to those kids, but no one was particularly nice to my peers. I kept my distance because that's just what you did. So when my son was diagnosed, I wanted things to be different. My daughter at the time had just started attending a school in the D.C. area, and had asked the principal of that school what work or exposure they were doing around disability awareness. She said, not much, and what did I have in mind? And hence, the launch of Better Ed Guide. So your daughter is the older one, and then your son, okay, okay. Yes. Teachers, especially those at independent schools, feel that this topic doesn't pertain to them, particularly if they're not sped, which the name in itself, special ed, is an issue and euphemistic. And frankly, that's where we got our name. Our original logo was Better Ed Guide, they're aligned through special ed, you know. These teachers couldn't do more wrong, you know. So that's really why we launched Better Ed Guide. Thank you, Anita. Gaia? Hi. And also, thank you for having us. We're really excited to speak with you today. I have a similar story. My son, who is now 15, has cerebral palsy and is neurodivergent. I also have two older daughters. And one of the things I liked in particular about their school was this approach to identity work and diversity, but yet, they weren't really doing anything around disability. So I began working on programs there with the school and was introduced to Amrita. Although I live in New York, we work together. I was introduced to her through a mutual friend, and we began working together. And this has really allowed us to meet so many incredible researchers, activists, and mentors. It's been a great journey. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks, Gaia. And I totally hear you when you say that when you get into this line, you just end up meeting so many people just come along the way, so many activists and scholars in the area. And it's just a very, I would say, energizing journey to see that you are not alone in this battle. Yeah. People are very kind with their time and their efforts. It's been great. Yeah, definitely. And so tell us again what BETTERED stands for. B-E-T-T-E-R is an acronym. And can you expand on that? Sure. I'll call it. So BETTERED, in terms of the actual acronym, the B stands for battle stigmas. The E, embrace differences. The first T, transform thinking. T, teach future leaders. E, elicit action. R, recognize strengths. Those are our goals, to battle the stigmas, to embrace differences, to change the way we think, our society thinks. And the way we do that is to teach our future leaders. And to elicit action, we need to make change and to recognize strengths in all of us. Again, like I mentioned earlier, there's nothing special about having a disability. No more than anything special about not having a disability. But we're all special. And it's about making change and changing the way we think as a society around disability and around ableism, which we believe is quite rooted in our society today and historically. So back stigmas and discrimination around disability. I love it. And just so our audience are all on the same page, when you say independent schools, I know that here in the Texas area, all our schools are called independent schools. Our public schools are called independent schools. But I think you are referring to private schools in the D.C. and New York area where you started and continue this work? Yes. So we targeted the independent schools. And what we mean by that, to your point, is the private schools. Because by law, public schools have to provide an education for all children, those with disabilities or not. The independent schools aren't necessarily required by law to do so. So we figured there would be a good place to start because we, you know, quote, unquote, think that there aren't as many students with disabilities as part of their student body. So, you know, you're already starting from a place where there's less exposure. So let's go to that first. Yeah, yeah, totally. So you said that schools have a responsibility to embrace disability as a vital part of human diversity. Can you unpack that for our listeners? And why is this perspective important in today's educational landscape? Sure. Well, if you think about it, right, diversity in all its forms brings such depth to communities. When you look at the most significant contributors and innovators across all sorts of genres, whether it's science, technology, the arts, many throughout history and even present day have had disabilities. There's value from learning from diverse perspectives. And people with disabilities have much to contribute. You know, as you shared, I come from a finance background, right? I like sharing the example that teachers, their 401Ks or their financial portfolios need to be diverse for many reasons, including the potential for growth opportunities. Very similarly, you want diversified perspectives in classes, which makes for a richer learning environment. It's the same exact way to think about it. Einstein, right, who arguably is the most smartest person to have ever lived, is believed to have had a disability. Where would we be without his findings? So I think, you know, disability is a natural form of human variation. And often, to Kai's point, disability is left out of diversity and identity conversations in a meaningful way. Disability is part of someone's identity, and yet there's often pity associated with disability. You'd never say, hey, Amrita, I'm sorry that you're female and Indian. I mean, it's the same thing, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. I think considering disability as a part of one's identity has been foundational in the field of disability studies, which grounds our work, starting back with the original social models of disability developed in the 80s. For those who aren't familiar, the social model distinguishes between disability and impairment and argues that people are disabled by barriers in society, whether those barriers are physical, attitudinal, systemic. But those barriers are more disabling than the impairment itself. And, you know, disability models have evolved over time, and there's been a lot of important work through the past several decades. How Much Continues Today, the neurodiversity movement, the disability justice framework, which not only looks at identity but centers intersectionality, which is critical, and the value of interdependence. And these are really important perspectives and frameworks around disability, and they're just left out of diversity and identity conversations in school. And when disability is discussed, it's usually a narrative, as Amrita said, of pity or someone overcoming their disability, and there are other kind of damaging tropes. We think disability has very much been other historically, as opposed to being positioned as a natural form of human diversity, and that's what we're trying to change. And we believe that schools are in a unique position to make this change happen for a few reasons. I mean, first, schools exist to help children become, right? It's a big part of where kids develop their sense of self, their sense of others. And studies tell us that kids notice differences at a very young age, and even if they're not talking about it, they're internalizing which differences are valued by society and which aren't. And so how we set up our schools, what we prioritize, what we talk about, this is all sending messages to the students. And so, you know, schools, therefore, need to be able to not only meet the needs of other students, but also foster a sense of belonging for everyone, including students with disabilities and those with multiple historically marginalized identities. And also, schools, you know, for the students that aren't disabled, schools are creating the leaders of tomorrow. According to the CDC, one in four Americans have a disability, and this is an identity that all students need to better understand and appreciate in order to effectively lead in whatever field they choose. So it's really important that schools understand this as part of identity and incorporate that work into their schools. Yes, thank you for bringing that up. And I guess, you know, Inclusive Occupation Podcast is geared towards just that. We believe that schools are the microcosm of our society, and this is where we can initiate change for the future generation. And the fact that we are trying to retrofit people with disabilities into a society that wasn't designed for them makes this work all the more complicated and complex, and it takes a village of people to make lasting changes happen in society. So we're all adding our bit to it, I suppose. So thank you for the amazing work you do. So tell me, in your experience, you've been supporting a lot of schools through your programming and through your services. So in your experience, how are schools currently approaching disability awareness and inclusion, if at all? And where do you see the gaps, and where is progress being made? Yeah, that's a great question. You know, I think things have come a long way in terms of supporting students with disabilities, right, if you look at the past 50, 60 years, mostly due to the legislation implemented. Americans with Disabilities Act, Individuals with Disabilities Education Act, Improvement Act. But as you know, when we talk about many students with disabilities are still taught and supported in a separate education, separate classrooms, separate schools, despite a host of research telling us that inclusive environments are more beneficial to them and all students. So I think, first, this needs to change. In terms of student support, I think, you know, there's been improvements recently. Again, with legislation, the Supreme Court ruling in Andrew v. Douglas County kind of attempted to better define IEP standards, how to approach and define goals and making them more robust. However, there is still so much work to be done. And as we've kind of already referenced, we really believe it starts with a shift in how the education field views disability overall. We think disability studies concepts should be included in all teacher training and university education programs. Every teacher should learn about kind of the basis of disability studies, which doesn't currently happen today. I think because of the way we've been socialized to think about disabilities, many educators are still operating through a more medical model lens of disability, where they view the quote issue as lying within the student, right? And it's considered something that we need to fix or cure. When you look at most IEPs and educational support plans, they're still primarily structured with deficit-based language. There's a lot of focus on impairments and shortages. As a parent going to those meetings, it's been over a decade. I still have to take a deep breath and brace myself for just – it's very negative. Goals are often written in terms of fixing a child. And I think we need to shift our focus to fixing the environment. Let's look at how the environment, whether it's a physical environment or the educational structure itself, may be disabling certain students, right? We need to shift to a strength-based assessment language and focus on the environment and the supports, how things like technology and scaffolding can enable students with that. Yeah, I hear you. I hear you. And as you say this, I'm just – you know, I was thinking about, you know, the fact that teachers are kind and they genuinely believe that the kids – that they are not capable of supporting kids with disabilities in the general education classroom, and therefore they need a separate classroom to be successful. So it's a very real concern coming from a good place and a lack of knowledge about the research out there that shows that kids actually do better in a general education classroom than in a separate classroom. And like you said, the teachers – I mean, the kids just imbibe the culture and imbibe the attitudes of the educators and the school community. So definitely I think there's work in that space to educate teachers to understand and actually, you know, work with them because it's knowing is different from actually knowing within yourself and taking action. And we're all hesitant with the unfamiliar, right? If you don't know something, it's still much more difficult. And they have a job to keep on a day-to-day basis and so many other struggles that go with teaching. As somebody who works in the schools, in the education space, I mean, I have to give it to them. But it's not easy from where they stand and it really is a little bit of effort in multiple directions, for sure. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, Amrita. It's really important to emphasize Kai's point that language is something that is probably the most common tool that needs to be sharpened. If you can't talk about something, right, to Kai's point, how can we make progress? And you might be hesitant to talk about disability or even say the word disability and then use euphemistic language to describe it because that's how we've been socialized to think. And so the way we make changes towards impact and progress is by first understanding that we all make mistakes and that it's okay to make mistakes. And to your point, I think a lot of teachers are really well-intentioned, but if they don't feel like they are comfortable to talk about something, it then becomes a challenge. And I think the other thing I just want to mention is that, you know, about our guide, we really aim to change the school's culture and approach to identity and to disability. So let's reframe the narrative. When we teach our earliest kiddos the alphabet, let's also introduce Braille and ASL so that they understand that these are other ways of communicating, right? We then normalize it. When they're older, let's share contributors who identify with a disability, whether the contribution has something to do with a disability or nothing at all to do with a disability. Matisse comes to mind. He created a whole new form of art when he started using a wheelchair. We often teach our students about the Civil Rights Movement. Let's talk to them about the Disability Rights Movement. There's so much that I think growing up we didn't learn about in terms of how pervasive ableism is in our society, how rooted it is in our culture and our history. And if you're taught that, then you are more aware of the bias, the inherent biases, the implicit biases that might be in the system and that might exist. And that's other ways for us to help combat, you know, some of the injustices that we think, you know, still exist, still exist today. Very true, very true. I think language plays a huge role over here. So can you walk me through, like, how does Better Ed partner with schools and how do you do this work, support inclusive and aware learning environments through your programming? Our work is taken on a few different formats over the years. At our core, we focus on professional development for educators and administrators around disability studies. We believe that in order to make effective changes to the processes and the details, there has to be a fundamental shift in their understanding of disability based on what we just talked about. So we start there. As you mentioned, everyone's usually really well-intentioned and they're just apprehensive to talk about the unfamiliar. So we try to create a safe environment, you know, reinforce, as Amrita said, don't make mistakes. Even though we're now students and professionals in this space, our learning curve remains steep. And as you said, many of us, including teachers, grew up not talking about disability. As children, we were hushed or told to look away if we were curious. And there was very little, if any, kind of accurate or appropriate portrayal of disability in books, in the literature. That's changing now, which is incredible. But that absence, for many of us who are in certain generations, has only perpetuated stigma. I have a really vivid memory of taking my son to a park when he was about four. He uses orthotics on his legs and has an arm brace. And he was playing with a little boy. And the boy started asking him questions about the orthotics. And his mother rushed over, shushed her son, apologized to me for his asking questions, then pulled him away. She stopped them from playing. And I'll never forget the look on my son's face. Her actions sent a message to both boys that there was something inherently wrong or shameful with my child. And also, I think her intentions were positive. Her behavior was far more damaging than the boy asking a few questions. And so I think, as Amrita said, we need to get people more comfortable talking about disability. So we start there. And I share these stories with the educators. We share our own vulnerabilities and biases. We talk about ableism, language, euphemism. And I say this as a recovering euphemistic user myself. I used that language for a while until I learned from the disability community. So that's kind of where we start. And then given that our work is rooted in disability studies, we're always very intentional about bringing in – we think it's vital to bring in diverse voices and directly from the disability community for guest speakers and videos and such. So once we've kind of done that foundational work, we have schools kind of look at their community and their school from a few different angles, their culture and language, their curriculum and accessibility. We can provide suggestions and resources around making their schools more accessible, more neurodiversity-affirming. We work with schools on how to evaluate their existing curriculum. Amrita gave a couple examples. And where they could weave in disability studies concepts and perspectives. We've – In light of curriculum audit, is that what you do? Yeah, we help them. Is there a curriculum audit? Yes, and we give them a lot of suggestions. And then, for example, we went through a curriculum PD with one school. And an upper school literature teacher said, you know what, we only get to do a few books a year. I don't know that I could add one, but we just did a separate piece. And now, just after this conversation, I can go back and have a much more robust disability-affirming conversation with my students about the same book. Like, I don't need to change my curriculum. I just need to weave in these elements now that I know, you know, about them. And then, you know, we've also done some workshops with students themselves and other community members, staff and families. And I know Amrita loves – she loves history. She loves to talk. There's one – and there's a lot of opportunities in history classes to weave in disability studies. I'll let her talk about some suggestions. Yeah, I mean, I think the one point I want to make, you know, Kaya mentioned a separate piece and talked about history. And often folks think, okay, fine, disability studies, humanities. No, you can incorporate mathematics, STEAM. There's so many ways to incorporate. We have incorporated disability studies concepts across subject areas and across grades. One of the great examples I love sharing is in a physics class. If you're learning about speed, time, velocity, why not have the students build ramps, right? And we can build ramps at different angles, have little matchbox cars going down the ramps. And you could also take it a step further and put different material on the ramps to slow down the speed or increase it. So all of a sudden they're building ramps and they're learning about what they need to in terms of physics. And then there could be just a quick discussion on what are the benefits of ramps. Oh, well, they might be created for people who use wheelchairs. Sure. Who else uses ramps? Oh, for those who use pushcars or walkers or those with baby strollers. So all of a sudden it's not just for the disability population. Once again, an invention, quote, unquote, right, that was designed for this population is being used by everybody else because there's benefit for everybody, this idea of universal design. So I love that. I love that you brought that up because I always feel like if education can be made more real life relevant, I think if we can encourage kids to think access in terms of whatever they learn, how can you use that knowledge to make the world more accessible for all kinds of learners and all kinds of people. I think it just opens up a huge opportunity for problem-based learning, experiential learning for all students. Yeah, definitely. I think that's a wonderful thing. Well, I think it's critical. We really try to move away from the disability awareness or, oh, here's a certain disability, empathy, pity. It's more about access. So how can we make the world more equitable and accessible for everybody? And what are the tools and things we can do as a society to support everyone? Again, education, and this goes towards universal design for learning, the UDL concepts, but education needs to be accessible and relevant, right? If the concept's not relevant, you're going to most likely get an unmotivated, disengaged student. So how do you make concepts relevant? How do you get the students to care? Some teachers may think, well, my role is to teach them this. Your role, I would argue, is to have them learn, and the success of that is driven by the motivation and engagement piece. So I think too often we don't share real-world examples, and so the students don't necessarily realize what you're teaching and how it could be applicable to them. And I think that's just really important. But UDL is certainly a framework that Kai and I are huge proponents of. We actually run specific sessions just dedicated to universal design for learning because we think it's a really important and big concept for educators to embrace. So a personal question. Now, your children, both your sons, how was their inclusion? So they both go to an independent school, right? And in the independent school, do they get to be part of all the classes that they are in, or do they get pulled out to be taught separately? We can always edit it out if you don't feel comfortable talking about that. No, no, I'm happy. It's a little easier for me because my son's younger, so my son's a rising second grader at an independent school. He has been pulled out for the speech therapist who's working with him on a couple of things, and there's been some pull-out sessions for him. But largely, he has been part of and integrated within the class. For him, one of the biggest parts of his disabilities is global hypotonia, low muscle tone. So for him, when it comes to physical activities, let's say PE or gym, that's when his disability perhaps is more pronounced. And so I'm always concerned for him, like, hey, they're running the half mile, and the teachers are all aware. But he doesn't want to feel singled out. He doesn't want to feel like he hasn't done the job like all the other kids. So right now, at least, he continues to participate in the PE activities. Having said that, he shared that, you know, let's say during recess, while the other kids are kicking the soccer ball around and he doesn't have the greatest coordination, he'll often be sitting by himself and watching the other kids play soccer or another sport. So, you know, I think as the older he gets, I think he's becoming even more aware that he has a disability. We've tried to normalize what he has and talk with him at home. But I think the older he gets, you know, there will probably be other things that pop up. But I'm sure Kaia has probably richer anecdotes to share, given her son's older. Yeah, so my son just completed eighth grade. He's been in both public schools and private schools. He's been supported by a number of services, speech therapy, OTPP, IEP, all of it, you know, ebbs and flows over the years. I think, you know, on the whole, educators are so committed to helping him. But it's hard, I think, you know, getting pulled out of class is disruptive. You know, there's a lot of ways I think we could make the process smoother. And I think that over the years, depending on the age, there's been different challenges. You know, middle school is much more challenging, I think, socially. As Marissa mentioned, you know, when you have physical disabilities, being included in things like PE and other sports teams is challenging. And I think there are ways that schools could do a better job thinking about that. And when we work with schools, I do get a lot of – I'm happy to share kind of personal examples of things that have worked well. Because I have noticed some things with teachers over the years that have worked well. I think a lot of times people try to help so much that they take a little bit of someone's independence and dignity away. And so I talk about that a lot in how, you know, one teacher, I think in fourth grade, worked with my son to get kind of – have him get a personal signal to the teacher so that the teacher knew when he wanted extra help or if he just needed extra time. And so it didn't kind of call it out in front of everyone. My son is incredibly socially aware. So he really tries hard to fit in as much as possible, which has made a lot of his accommodations challenging. He doesn't want to take advantage of them, which hurts him academically. So there's a lot of complications that kind of come with, I think, true inclusion. And I think, again, the best thing we can do as communities is talk about it. Let's talk about it. Let's talk about it up front. And what's worked best with him is to just think ahead as much as possible. So having those signals, you know, talking to the teachers ahead of time as he's gotten older, really giving him agency into what works for him and what doesn't. And so it's a process, you know, and I think it's a journey that everyone looks a little bit different and every student is different. But the more we can, I think, understand disability overall and look at, again, the barriers and really focus on the barriers and how do we remove these barriers, whether they're physical, educational, or social, you know, attitudinal. Those are the big barriers. Those are big barriers, you know. And I think all schools are, even independent and private schools, more and more students are being open about their learning disabilities and their neurodivergence and things like that. So we are making progress, and I think we just need to keep that momentum and really continue to look at it from that perspective and do what we can to be as inclusive in all those different areas of school. Because it's not just about the classroom. It's about lunchroom, recess, the sports teams, the drama performances, all of it. Even outside the classroom, outside the school. There was one school that we were working with, and one of the alumni had a disability. And our contact at the school was sharing how this alumnus was saying that the school was great about fostering inclusion given his disability and whatnot, but it was the outside of after school, you know, when kids are getting together socially and what have you. And, you know, perhaps the school can play a better part or a bigger part in facilitating some of that connectivity, right? You know, schools exist for kids to belong. All these kids want a sense of belonging. And so... Yeah, exactly. So I think although we've come a long way, if we're not intentional about these facilitating, fostering these relationships, we cannot assume that they would happen naturally, which we often tend to. Like, oh, yeah, yeah, we are inclusive. We don't want to, you know, do anything to be explicit about it because, oh, yeah, yeah, we're all inclusive. And then the reality comes in. The other thing I always, like, come to recognize is inclusion and exclusion is a very dynamic process on a continuum and faced by everybody, not only individuals with disabilities. And you can be, you know, may not have an identified disability, but you may definitely go through periods in your life when you feel extremely excluded. And I think having these conversations and just, I think, strengthening our inclusion muzzle and when we can do it with the population who have a history of segregation, who are more vulnerable to exclusion, I think it just is going to foster the entire society to think about inclusion beyond just disability to, like, we all go through this. We understand this. And let's make an intentional effort to foster that sense of belonging for everyone in school. Absolutely. I mean, middle school is the high limit, right? We all go through that. Yeah. Like, my kids went through bullying and my kids went through, you know, times of exclusion. You know, although they have an identified disability, it just has been a natural part of their growing up. And it's just that recognizing that is a lot more, I wouldn't say easier, but it's a lot more, it's less abstract when we talk about specific identities and their inclusion. Because it's inevitable from all segregation. Yeah. Right. Being human, right? This is all part of, yeah. The one thing I would just add, outside of the social aspect, again, Kai and I share this in our sessions, it's important to explore any implicit biases you may have as a teacher, as an individual. And that's hard to do, right? It's hard to kind of take a real close look at that mirror and reflect. And what we try to do in the beginning of our sessions is share some statements that we used to think before we went on this journey. And so some of our own biases or prejudices that we may have had and share that with participants. And I think it's important for teachers to do the same. And it's a hard thing to do and it's a hard thing to ask and yet something else to add on to their very big plate of to-dos. But I think it's important for them to be a little self-critical. What are your experiences around disability or around X, Y, Z types of students, whatever that might mean? And how have you reacted? And kind of dissect that a little bit. And where's your discomfort? Where's your discomfort now and how did you make yourself more comfortable? I think pushing through a little discomfort can really help with inclusion for everybody. My son was not invited to a friend's birthday because they were doing kart racing, which he's not able to do. In a situation like that, I had one friend who was also considering a birthday party with her son. There was a rope court. And she called me and said, this is what he wants to do. We don't want to not include your son. And talk it through. And she leaned into that discomfort. And we had a conversation. And I was like, you know, I get it. And he knows, too. Maybe I'll let him choose if you want to come at the end for the cake. But instead of just not inviting, she let in to the discomfort and gave me a call. So we're all going to experience those moments as parents, as educators. And so I think it's, as Amrita said, really important to evaluate, okay, where do I stand? Where are my biases? Am I a little bit uncomfortable? And what can I do to maybe push that a little bit? Thanks for sharing that. My daughter is vegan. And she has been so since she was 11 and hasn't changed. She's 17 now. But oftentimes, she does not get invited to certain parties because they're afraid that she won't have anything to eat. But if people ask her, she's like, I don't want to eat. I just want to be there. I just want to be part of the group. And oftentimes, she brings her own food. And make sure, don't feel bad about it. And it's not reasonable for you to make all these changes for me. If you can, well and good. If not, don't feel bad about it. But it's the same thing. It's the same thing with disability. I think people with disabilities also understand that they are different. And it may take more effort for the organizers to plan something for them. And it's totally understandable. And if you can, go for it. But include them in that conversation. That's the key. Include them in the conversation. Include them in the conversation. It's all about agency. It's all about agency. Your daughter then has the choice, or Kai's son then has the choice of attending the party or not. And so then it's on them on whether they decide to go and not participate in the activities or not eat, but get to be there with their friends and still laugh at the experience or share that experience. It's all about agency. And that agency isn't, you know, it's totally transferred into the classroom again, right? And you can bring into all those situations. And I think it's that we don't give students enough agency. I think even we can start when they're younger. We think mostly kind of middle school and so forth, but we can even start when they're younger to give them certain, you know, option A or option B and start helping them think along those lines. And also, there's a lot of adaption that can be done. You know, like there are ways to adapt. You know, we've done GoParty with him, like where we kind of adapt. Like you need to presume competence. And so if you are concerned about something, speak up. Say, this is the planned activity. Is there anything that you can participate? Are you able to participate? Don't just assume that someone could not participate or wouldn't want to participate, right? So, again, lean into that question and that maybe slight discomfort in the conversation and ask, because people with disabilities are very creative and have lots of ways that they can adapt to participate and want to be included. So have the conversation. Yeah, and enabling that process actually opens up a lot of creativity in people that they have not been aware of. I mean, like the same examples of this vegan thing. I mean, people have started, like we've started cooking more vegan food, and we actually prefer that over what we have been used to in the past. And same with her friends. Like they all love the desserts that she makes, the vegan desserts that she makes, and that's become like the norm now. And so it just makes the world richer when you embrace these differences and make it accessible for everybody, right? Yeah. How many of us use speech-to-text on our phones? Right? Yeah. While it may have been designed for the disability community, we all use it. It's been helpful for all of us for different reasons. Yes. So we need to start, you know, shifting our mindsets around things like that. Yes, exactly. Very, very true. Very true. So any stories you have about how you – I know you shared about the teacher who went back and said, now I have the resources to make my lessons more inclusive. So any other stories you have, like any powerful moment of inclusion done right? Yes. Inclusion is a force, right? It's a collective effort. When it's done right, it's not just one person. It's an entire community ensuring that there's a sense of belonging for all. One example that comes to mind is, you know, we typically send out pre-session questionnaires before we come to a school just to ask folks about, hey, what's your experience around disability? What's your understanding around it? Are there any particular things you'd want us to address in a workshop? And it was one particular school where many, many in the community were sharing that their campus as an independent school, their campus wasn't very accessible and, therefore, not very inclusive. This school was based in the D.C. area. And so we challenged the school to do something about the inaccessibility. We proposed that they have their students learn about the Americans with Disabilities Act. Now, I want to preface that the ADA is archaic and needs to be updated, but, you know, so we suggested that their students learn about the ADA and then determine how accessible their school and campus is based upon a checklist that we could provide. Well, they took us up on that idea. They actually had someone who co-wrote the ADA come to the campus and speak to the students. The students were then, they started measuring the width of doorways, the height of camera tables, measuring curb cuts and exploring ways how one with physical impairments may navigate their schools. All of a sudden, this becomes, right, an interdisciplinary exercise for the students. The students then presented their findings to the principal of the school, who then recommended changes to the board, and changes were actually implemented. I think this is such a powerful way to empower the students to evoke change, to foster inclusivity. You know, I bet you this is an experience that they'll always kind of remember. Hey, that time when we learned about something and we suggested, and the grown-ups, quote-unquote, the power that be listened to us, and they changed. It's one of my favorite takeaways of the work that we do in terms of you walk away, and there's different ways of measuring impact, but when you hear stories like this and students actually doing something, it really hits home. They were sixth graders. I think, as Amrita said, that's something that will stick with them the next time. They're so excited to show us, look, we're sixth graders and we made this change, and it's done really well. They learned about it. They explored themselves and then made recommendations. So we love that example. Thank you for sharing that. That is indeed powerful. We've talked about this before, too. I think the students are powerhouses of change for the future. If we can empower them and open their eyes, they don't have a lot of unlearning to do that our generation had. Exactly. The earlier you start, the less you have to undo. Yes, totally, yes. So when you go into a school and you do your work, how do you measure the impact that you've created? Is there a way that you go about with it? I know it's hard to have tools to measure the kind of qualitative information that we may get out of our programming and our interventions. So tell me more about how you measure your success. Well, I think in terms of accessibility, you can look at examples like the one we just had and other things that we do in schools where there's changes made. Their website is not accessible and then they make changes and now it is. So we can measure kind of those concrete changes, which is great. We have a lot of checklists and things like that where, like you mentioned, for example, audit, we do kind of accessibility work around that. So those are the concrete changes, but we also have some great kind of in terms of the work with the kids and more examples around like the one we just shared. I know, Maritza, we have a great one with the younger students from our pilot. In our pilot program, there was an elementary school teacher that we worked very closely with, and she was just impressive in herself. She had decades of experience of teaching, and she even shared that our work provided her with new insights about this topic. And so coming from someone that's been around for a while, that was, I think, telling. She had asked a question of her kindergarten class, something to the effect of, how do you see the light in the darkness of winter? How do you see the light in the darkness of winter? And after they had gone through some of our programming, one student shared, well, you can still feel the sun even if you're blind. You still know it's sunny even if you're blind. This comes from a five-year-old. I mean, again, this has warmed our hearts. It's this type of thinking we hope adults can embrace. Most adults wouldn't be able to think like this if you don't think, you know, that there's more than one way to achieve similar objectives. Too often people associate can't with disability, right? And that's just simply not the case. I can give you one more example. You know, when we started this, our focus really moved to educating teachers and administrations on this topic. We never imagined that we'd be asked to facilitate workshops for students. But one of our first workshops for students was with middle school students. And by the end of this workshop, again, I was shocked. Again, middle school students. Students were openly sharing some of their diagnoses. Like, hey, I've been diagnosed with ADHD. Wait, yay, me too. And we're like, whoa, they're okay sharing this. This is awesome. You know, we want there to be pride associated with your disability identity. And it was being reflected. At the end of this particular workshop, we had the students fill out an index card. I used to think blank about disability. Now I know why about disability. Again, some of the responses, we were just floored. I think one of the examples was a response rather was, I used to think that people with disabilities were limited by their disabilities. Now I know society limits them by not accommodating them. Wow. Wow. Wow. Yes. You know? I used to think that people with disabilities couldn't be as successful. I now know that they can be even more successful than people without disabilities. It's about changing the mindset, changing the perception. We were touched that these students took this away from that session. We can only hope that we can make similar impacts with the educators as well. So it trickles down. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Thank you. I think oftentimes when we are not able to do the same thing in education, if you don't measure progress, then you think there's no progress. But it happens. Not everything is quantifiable. I think another question I had was, like your programming, do you do a sequence of sessions, or is it usually one session, or is it a year-round activities? It really depends on the school. Yes. It kind of engages us in different ways. We make sure we do our foundational professional development first. We kind of are adamant about that core grounding of disability studies with the social model and language first, and then they kind of add some flows based on their needs. Some of the schools focus more on the curriculum. Others want, as you said, the workshops with the students and then workshops with families. So it really just depends. But we always start with that core professional development program. We have a section on executive functioning. We have a section on the intersectionality of historically marginalized identities. So what if you identify with a disability and you are of black or brown and what that means, so those intersections. So we call it a menu of different workshops. It really kind of depends on the school. Kaia and I are also in the middle of working on building out more of an audit for schools as well. So, yes, there's ways we can share right away in terms of how you can ensure that you are building a culture of accessibility and inclusivity, whether it's your website or your hiring practices. So we're basically in the process of creating an audit on more specifics so that schools do have certain checklists that they can go through in terms of, where am I in terms of how accessible we are as a school and in terms of our culture as well. That's great. And it sounds like more of an a la carte menu where they can choose what works for their school and probably their funding and their needs. Right. So, yeah. And we've also helped some of the independent schools with their, because they don't follow the IEP process necessarily, and there's a really large increase in the number of students receiving educational support in independent schools. So we've helped them kind of tweak those processes and look at those processes as well. So you've done your work only in independent school districts so far, independent schools so far? Mostly. Have you ever? Yeah. We've worked with some public educators, but that was more on a one-off basis. Obviously, if you're talking about curriculum design and things like that, that becomes a little bit, it's just a different path that one would take with the public school as opposed to a one-off independent school. But it's funny, we actually, one of our very first sessions was with public educators, and some of them kind of came afterwards, reached out to us and said, hey, can we get some more information? How can we get more involved or have you guys get more involved? So we're trying to figure out how to work with the public school systems. Again, it's just a different path, so it's another path that we just need to learn more about. Yeah, I definitely think public schools have as much of a need for what you're doing as private schools do. But, yeah, I think that navigating the system is definitely more complex and challenging in public schools. I think everyone has work to do in this area. Absolutely. Yes, yes, yes. Well, thank you so much, Amrita and Kaya. This was such an interesting conversation. I'm just so glad our paths crossed and we're all sort of made of the same fabric. So I'm so glad about that. And any final takeaways for our listeners? Yeah, I would just kind of leave one takeaway, if I may, is for your listeners to be curious. Be curious. Ask questions. It's so important. As adults, we encourage kids to ask questions, and if we want to combat the inequalities that we see within learning environments, as with anything, asking questions respectfully helps move the needle towards impact. So just be curious. Ask questions. Don't be afraid to ask questions. There's no dumb question. You know, just ask. And all our learning curves remain steep. Kaya and I are continuing to learn more and more, and we encourage others to do so as well. Yeah, and I would say, similarly, go and explore. There are so many incredible resources nowadays. You know, books like Emily Legate's Unifying Stability is fantastic. And a really easy read. Websites, TED Talks, podcasts, we can send you some great resources. But I think if you only have three minutes or something you can learn, if you want to, you know, take on more, but engage with those resources and maybe grab at least one or two concepts that you can take back, if you're an educator, to your classroom. Yeah, very true, very true. And to me, not to be afraid of being wrong and be willing to learn from those mistakes. We never make those mistakes. We never knew. We'll never know that we've had it wrong all these days, right? Exactly. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much.