helen-guest506_1_01-13-2025_191130

The speaker talks about their interest in history and theology and how they stumbled upon the stories of German veterans who fought for Britain in World War II. They gained the trust of these veterans and began telling their stories through books. They also discovered their involvement in intelligence work and their contribution in bringing Nazi war criminals to justice. The speaker discusses their journey of uncovering these stories and the importance of preserving this history. They also mention their work on the secret listeners, who eavesdropped on conversations during the war. The speaker highlights the significance of these archives in understanding both World War II and the early Cold War. The trauma experienced by some of these veterans is also mentioned. Thank you very much. Thank you. Well, I'm really excited about this podcast. Congratulations on launching this podcast, and I wish it every success going forward. So I've always been interested in history, inspired by a history teacher, as is so often the case. But I was also interested in theology, so in my early career I have a mix of both, actually. But I've majored now in history for the last 30 years. And I suppose I always say it's an accidental discovery. My publisher thinks otherwise. It's just the way I work, I suppose. But around 25 years ago, in northwest London, there were a number of World War II veterans still alive. And I happened to stumble across some of them, and I got talking to them. And then, of course, they introduced me to some of their coffee mornings, and then I got to know some of the wider veterans. And their story had never been told. They were part of the 10,000 Germans who fought for Britain in the Second World War. Now, around 90% of them were Jewish. Around 10% were anti-Nazi. But they really had no coverage on their stories. And it took a long time. It took a long time, in actual fact, to get their trust. A wall of silence had gone up. They'd gone into civilian life. They had layers of trauma behind them, having left Nazi Germany or Austria. They'd lost families in the Shoah, in the Holocaust. And they'd lost comrades on the battlefield. Not just their own, but British comrades as well. So I got their confidence over a number of years, and they trusted me, and it began to open up. And so I started to tell their stories and publish their stories. And that's what got me started. And then, of course, after a while, you discover as fluent German speakers, and multiple languages in some cases, they enter into intelligence work. And that's what got me into the whole intelligence field. Yes, so to start with, because they hadn't told their stories, not even to their families, I started with something safe. I was very interested in a very particular area of Devon, in north Devon in the Second World War. And it was a very interesting way of looking at history, to look at local history. I grew up in north Devon. And so I thought, well, I'll look at the Jewish history. And there was a Jewish community in the 18th, 19th century there. And I just, for a matter of a bit of a hobby, while my boys were still almost in nappies, I started to do this research. And then one day my husband would say to me, well, you've got enough for an article. You know, eight, nine, ten Jews in the Second World War, refugees, working on farms around there. Oh, I'll just kind of get their stories together. I started to interview them. And then he came home one day, and I said, 3,000. And he nearly fell over. He said, you've got enough for a book. And it was those 3,000 or more, well, roughly, roughly 3,000, were those emigres, those primarily German Jews, that were training in the Pioneer Corps of the British Army, digging for victory. They had to go away from the south coast where there could be an invasion. And they were all the way up there on the north Devon coast in Biddeford and the Victorian seaside town of Ilfracombe. And I knew that I wanted this to be a very pictorial history. The very first history I did is nothing like what I've done since. So it was A4, hardback, with over 250 photographs, never published before, of Jews in north Devon in the Second World War. And that was its title. And people thought I was bonkers. Until after just a few weeks, I got phone calls. There's a bit of noise. Until after a few weeks, I started to get phone calls that people couldn't get hold of the book. And I was saying, well, why can't you get hold of the book? And I phoned the publisher and it had gone. It had sold out. Because of the number of families that were connected to the story that started to buy it. It was a very obscure title. But that's where it all started. And so you have this whole microcosm of German and Austrian society in Ilfracombe, training in the British Army before they go off to do what they were going to do next, primarily forestry work and guarding Docklands until they could do fighting proper. But there's a next stage of the story when some of them said to me, of course I didn't stay in the Pioneer Corps. And that's when they started to get frustrated. Well, what did you do? Oh, I was a tank driver. One was fighting on the front line for 11 months, the sole survivor of his tank. Another went behind enemy lines. A certain chap ends up being Churchill's bodyguard at Potsdam. And so I thought, wow, I've got to tell this story. So then that's when I told the book, The King's Most Loyal Enemy Aliens. And that's how they were known, effectively, as The King's Most Loyal Enemy Aliens. They'd all sweared allegiance to George VI and his descendants. And there they were in British Army uniform, not yet British citizens until after the war. So then that whole area opens up. And as I said just now, so many of them also were involved in intelligence work. And then there's a third layer to the story that, again, I wasn't expecting. I say to them, that's great. So you demobilized, went into civilian life. Oh, no, they said. We spent time in post-war Germany in British Army uniform, sometimes for two or three years, on a lot of intelligence, denationalization, hunts of Nazi war criminals. No one had told their story, their contribution. And some of the biggest Nazi war criminals were brought in by those German Jewish emigres in British Army uniform. So as you can see, now we're on to three or four books. And then there are individual stories that I thought, oh, wow, this has got to be told. There was quite a lot of resistance to start with, because none of them saw themselves as heroes. They really objected. And we kind of managed to get over that in the end. I said, well, I just want to tell these stories. And then, of course, we do go down the intelligence. It's not really a rabbit hole. It's a wonderful rabbit hole, if we're going to call it a rabbit hole, with the likes of one of the secret listeners, Fritz Lustig. So it's been a journey, and it's a journey that's still continuing. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. They are, and they were classified until 2004. So I'd already started. The whole secret listeners, they were eavesdropping at these three secret sites outside London, wrote it up as The Wolf Have Ears. And no one had written this story from the perspective of the secret listeners. And one of those German Jewish refugees said to me one day, Fritz Lustig, he said, you know, Helen, you've written all about the people on the front line. All my colleagues have said, well, what about us? What about the secret listeners? What had we done towards the outcome of the war? We've got the codebreakers at Bletchley Park. We were told our work was very important. But in what sense did we make a difference? Or did we make a difference? And at that point, that was around 2004, I'd already started on the biography of Fritz's commanding officer, Thomas Kendrick. And his took even longer to write because there was a middle part missing. The files weren't available. So it took a while. It's part of the journey. So I already knew that the files for the eavesdropping program had just finally been declassified. And that took five years for someone to go through them at the MOD. And they gradually released it all there in 2004. And so I said to Fritz, I'll start working on them. And I was expecting, and you may well have heard me say this before, I was expecting a really nice little cozy story. And I was going to go back to Fritz and say, well, you know, there's this, and I discovered that, and this is fascinating. Do you remember this? Well, what opened up was the most extraordinary archive, all of which is in the National Archives. Nearly 100,000 transcripts of both conversations and intelligence reports. So that's, well, there's still a lot I haven't been through. There's a lot for historians to do there. The impact right across the war from September 1939 when it started until just beyond the end of the war until about November 1945. So it's a really important intelligence archive, if you like, in war office files and air intelligence. They're sort of together. And they're important for World War II. But they're also important because they prepared us for the early Cold War in ways that we're just beginning to understand as well. Because of the intelligence they gained, particularly after 1943 on the Russian threat and that kind of thing. So that's really what sparked the intelligence side. I had little bits and pieces from those 10,000 Germans who fought for Britain. But it was really Fritz who was one of the last surviving secret listeners. There were only a handful of them that I ever got to interview. The rest had all passed away. And if it wasn't for his question, and I promised him I would tell the story, I would write the book. But again, I thought it would be a cosy, nice little book. But that's just led to everything else. And thankfully, that history, I think, is now secure. There was a time when I thought it might just sort of wane and disappear. But I think hopefully it's in the public consciousness enough. It's being recognized as being as significant as the code breaking at Bletchley Park by Historic England. Thank you. Yes, in fact, some of them didn't talk about some of the trauma. Because what I realized was that some of them had actually been near units, had been near Belsen. And in one particular case, Hermie Rothman, who was one of the ones that translated part of Hitler's will, actually, they discovered it sewn in the lining of Hans Lorenz's press attaché. And suddenly his jacket didn't look like his ordinary quote-unquote POW. And I thought to myself, but hang on, Hermie, you were close to Belsen. And I'd known him for a number of years, helped him with his autobiography. And I said, Hermie, did you ever go into Belsen? He just looked at me. And he told me the most incredibly moving story. And he cried. Not very often do the veterans cry. And I'd never seen him cry before. And this was years down the line. So you have that. They talked about, also, particularly secret listeners, about how difficult it was. Because they overheard not just military information, of course, and stuff pertaining to U-boat crew, but they heard visions of war crimes, concentration camps, graphic details of how Jews were killed in forests outside Riga, step-by-step, not just numbers, but really painting a scene like a novel. Somebody's describing there, one of the soldiers there, how they shot hundreds of Jews. And their own relatives are still left behind in Germany. And they fear that this could be them. Yes. Yes, they did. Yes. Yes, they have. So now I still deal with the children and the grandchildren. And they come out of the woodwork all over the place. I've still got a veteran, the last surviving World War II interrogator, who's 103½ in Chile. Bless him. He's adorable. And he's dapper and so bright and sparky. He's written his memoirs. Yes, we all went on a journey. But he's the last, actually. But before that, way back, sort of 20 years ago, the Imperial War Museum, around my book, The King's Most Loyal Enemy, Aliens, actually had a big reunion event. There were over 300 veterans who'd never had any public recognition. And there they were, the most moving moment. When I went into the big auditorium that they had, I think they've redesigned the space now. Massive auditorium with their relatives. And there they were, proud with all their medals. And it was really that moment to walk in. So they all sat there waiting. I did a little talk alongside some others. So, yes, that was something they did. That's why I wrote so quickly in the early years. Because this had to come out, in my view, this had to come out in their lifetime. It was really, really important. And then, of course, they start to pass away. And the others are left. And they kind of look at me. And they know they're not, you know, they could go at any time. And one of them in particular, Geoffrey Perry, who actually captured Lord Haw Haw, William Joyce, said to me, you know, when life becomes history, which was the title of his autobiography, he said, you know, you are the guardian of our memory. Because when we're gone, they knew I was young enough to be the guardian of their memory. And I think of that now and again. And we are. The historians are guardians, yes, of this history. We're bringing it to life. But for those veterans, but for the grace of God, I might never have met them. Their stories would never have been told. And I'm pleased that they've had that moment. And I promised them in my career I would keep their stories alive. And I hope they will continue to be carried forward. Thank you. Thank you. I think it's always a journey and the style. And I always say to prospective authors, whether they're historians or fiction writers or whatever, just get the material down. Don't think that the book, you almost think when you see the finished product, people kind of subconsciously think you have to write it perfect first time. I think it's less so now than it used to be. But in the early part of my career, psychologically, people just generally think, oh, they couldn't possibly rewrite it because they couldn't. I say, what is the process? You edit, you write down the next chapter, you do a bit more, you go back to the earlier chapter. Oh, that's dreadful, isn't it? And then you rework it. But I also am not the kind of person that endlessly reworks it. I was never a person that would, you know, 10, 15 years before a book comes out. There comes a moment where you have to say, it's done. So my process, really, I can only think about now. If there's a book I want to do, and Yale University Press has been fabulous about discussing, you know, what kind of things do you think we're going to do next. And that's great. I really enjoy working with them. So I will scope a material. So if I'm writing about The Secret Listener, for example, as I did, you've got to think about the breadth of the material, where you're going to find it. And then, on the whole, it's best to tell a story chronologically if you can. Because otherwise, if you jump around too much, you lose your reader. So generally, you've got to have a chronological thread. You have to think about chapters and some colourful or creative, not necessarily creative, but a title for each chapter that reflects what's going to go in it. Now, I am lucky. I'm now at a stage where I don't have to hand in a book proposal that's 30 to 40 pages plus two sample chapters. I am at the stage where I'm very fortunate where Yale will say to me, okay, we'd like to have this 20 to 30 page proposal. And then I just go away and write it. Because I think, for me, that would be a stumbling block. It was in my early career in approaching some publishers. You have to actually finish the work, two chapters. You can't because you haven't done all the research. It's a process as you're writing. You get under the skin of it. And so, for me, I think I would find that hard if I had to do two complete chapters, whichever two they were in the book. You can always choose. That, for me, would be difficult. So now I just like to say, well, this is the book. Just go for it. And, of course, it always comes out slightly different because you might discover material on the way that you weren't expecting to go in there. And you think, oh, no, this has to go in, doesn't it? I mean, I'll just give you one example. In my Women in Intelligence book, there's a woman I discovered was the only spy swap of the Second World War. Now, she had currently declassified files. Now, she wasn't in my original book proposal, but I thought, my goodness, she's got to go in, hasn't she? So that's the process, really. I do try to do a bulk of the research first if you have to. But it's often going hand in hand. So you might be sort of halfway through and realize that there's a bit of a gap, and you think that there's something on that in the archives, so you go back. So for my next book, I've had a few trips, a couple of trips to Brussels, for example. I had to go back for stuff. For that, I did try and get the bulk of the material up front. But if I'm working in the UK and it's easy to use archives in London, I would just slip in extra research days, which is what I've done recently, actually, with the Imperial War Museum. I've popped down there again thinking, oh, gosh, yes, I've forgotten to use this bulk of papers. And they were relevant. So it's a very fluid process, and it's not the same for every book. Right. I don't know. No. I didn't really see it as any different, to be honest. I think the challenge, because he was essentially working for MI6, as we call it today, for nearly 40 years, there were parts of his life which still are in the shadows that we'll probably never know about. But I found so many flashpoints of his life inspirational, not just one or two, not just one war. It's right across his career. He was at the heart of some of the most interesting intelligence operations of the first half of the 20th century. So he retired from MI6 in 1948. He had a very, very interesting career starting out in the Boer War, starting out in 1909. So all that period, encompassing World War I, 20s and 30s, fascinating. So I suppose I think sometimes it's quite hard to get the character of someone who's long gone and you can't interview. I wouldn't have been able to interview him because he would never have spoken about it. When I started, this was one of the challenges, when I started his biography, when I started researching it, MI6 didn't officially exist. I mean, today it's got its website, it's got a Twitter account from the director. But it never admitted, as did MI5, didn't admit to existing even. So I think that caused a few kind of uncomfortableness in the background. Where is she getting all this information from? Well, from declassified files, Foreign Office, War Office, whatever. I managed to gradually piece together his career. So my mind was focused quite a lot on that. How can I fill in the gaps? I can't make assumptions on what is a life completely lived in the shadows of an organisation that didn't exist until recently. Yes, so they had memories. So I was able to interview the grandchildren. One of them, I didn't go to South Africa, but he came over on a trip and we talked and that was great. Yes, so I was able to weave some of that through the biography. But I think there comes a moment when you've examined so much of what they've done, what they've achieved, you kind of almost get under the skin of the character as well. But, you know, who knows? One of the things that I've noticed is that, you know, there are a lot of people who have a lot of experience in this area. And I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. That's a difficult question, actually. I remember thinking, sometimes I get to a point at the end, when I've done the first draft, and there's still a few bits and pieces up in the air. There might be even a section that just says, you know, currently writing it or something. It goes into the publisher with a few loose ends. And I can't tell if it's any good anymore. And that is a bit disconcerting. And you give it a break while the readers read it. And the Women in Intelligence was tricky at points because I did have to deal with a sort of wokeness. And I don't want to talk about that publicly, really. And I pushed back on that. And I suppose the publisher and I were expecting it up to a point. But it wasn't relevant to the story in the book. But I look back now. Someone asked me once, is the one book you think is your favourite? I don't know about my favourite, but I've stood back from the Women in Intelligence, which came out about a year ago. I'm thinking, well, one, it doesn't feel like I've written it. I thought, oh, my gosh, how did I do this? The sheer density of material and research. But it really is a panoramic view, a history of the incredible legacy of women across those two world wars and the interwar years. And I'm now proud of that book. Because when it came out a year ago, I still couldn't tell how it was going to be received, whether it was even well written anymore. Because I've been so immersed in it. And now I stand back and if I have to look up something or I read over a little bit, I get hooked. I don't even feel as though I've written it. I get hooked in the story and think, wow, this story is amazing about this particular woman. So I think I am proud of a lot of what I've done. I think I'm proud of the Women in Intelligence now. I think that was quite an achievement. I don't know if I can follow that in my future books. And I am so pleased that Fritz Lustig asked me that question about the Secret Listens. Because that is a story of national significance that could so easily have been lost. No one would have found this stuff. It's just an accidental journey. I was in the right place at the right time. And I think that's what it's all about. I think that's what it's all about. 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sort of block or a barrier, but now I think it's a sort of block or a barrier, but now I think it's a sort of block or a barrier, but now I think it's a sort of block or a barrier, but now I think it's a sort of block or a barrier, but now I think it's a sort of block or a barrier, but now I think it's a sort of block or a barrier, but now I think it's a sort of block or a barrier, but now I think it's a sort of block or a barrier, but now I think it's a sort of block or a barrier, but now I think it's a sort of block or a barrier, but now I think it's a sort of block or a barrier, but now I think it's a sort of block or a barrier, but now I think it's a sort of block or a barrier, but now I think it's a sort of block or a barrier, but now I think it's a sort of block or a barrier, but now I think it's a sort of block or a barrier, but now I think it's a sort of block or a barrier, but now I think it's a sort of block or a barrier, but now I think it's a sort of block or a barrier, but 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block or a barrier, but now I think it's a sort of block or a barrier, but now I think it's a sort of block or a barrier, but now I think it's a sort of block or a barrier, but now I think it's a sort of block or a barrier, but now I think it's a sort of block or a barrier, but now I think it's a sort of block or a barrier, but now I think it's a sort of block or a barrier, but now I think it's a sort of block or a barrier, but now I think it's a sort of block or a barrier, but now I think it's a sort of block or a barrier, but now I think it's a sort of block or a barrier, but now I think it's a sort of block or a barrier, but now I think it's a sort of block or a barrier, but now I think it's a sort of block or a barrier, but now I think it's a sort of block or a barrier, but now I think it's a sort of block or a barrier, but now I think it's a sort of block or a barrier, but now I think it's a sort of block or a barrier, but now I think it's a sort of block or a barrier, but now I 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