Ep. 4: Redefining Career Success in Taiwan w/ Ms. Connie Ma

The podcast, "Define the Bamboo Ceiling," explores how Asian professionals navigate cultural divides and systemic barriers. Host Hannah interviews Connie Ma, founder of Career Camp, discussing entrepreneurship, living in Taiwan, and cultural identity. They delve into challenges faced by BIPOC professionals, career pivots, and cultural differences in success and leadership. Connie shares her journey of moving to Taiwan, finding fulfilling work, and balancing family life. Her career evolution from social enterprise to educational startups to working at an international school reflects her passion for education and career development. Hey everyone, welcome to Define the Bamboo Ceiling, the podcast where we explore how Asian professionals navigate cultural divides and break through systemic barriers across different industries. I'm your host, Hannah, and today we're tackling the question of entrepreneurship and what it's like to live in another country, specifically, Taiwan. Today I'm so excited to be joined by someone whose work I admire, Connie Ma, the founder of Career Camp. She's a career coach, educator, and someone who's helped tons of first generations, BIPOC, and Asian professionals figure out not just what they want to do, but how to navigate those tricky in-between moments of burnout, career pivots, identity crossroads, and come out stronger on the other side. Connie Ma is a Boston Latin alum, and I was able to find her contact through Mr. Chen, and spoiler alert, I actually realized that Connie Ma is in the same graduating class as my sister as well. So my sister actually knew Connie back in the day, and I didn't even know it, because I got Connie's contact through Mr. Chen. It's so funny how coincidences like that can happen. It's really a small world out there. What makes Connie's story and life so interesting is that she lives in Taiwan, and that move wasn't just for her life to change, but a way for her to reconnect with her cultural identity in a different way. In today's conversation, we're talking about how Eastern and Western ideas of success, leadership, and education can clash, and what that means for Asian professionals trying to grow their careers while staying true to themselves. We'll also get into some deeper patterns she sees, like how humility and deference, which many of us were raised with, can sometimes get misinterpreted in the workplace. We will also talk about common struggles in middle management, and how to break through things when you're stuck. So let's get into it. Welcome, Ms. Ma. Thank you for having me on the podcast, Hannah. It's really exciting to participate. Awesome. I'm so excited to learn more about your journey and uncover some helpful advice you've learned along the way. Hopefully. I've been reading some of your articles, and let me just say I'm so excited to dive deeper in those topics that you discussed, especially the ones regarding Eastern and Western cultural differences. I think that'll be so interesting. But before we get into that, how are you? How's life? How's Taiwan? Things are pretty good. I can't complain about it too much. It's been less than a year since I quit my full-time job to go full-time on being a career coach for young adults and being an entrepreneur. So it's all going, I think, fairly well. Slower than I expected, which we'll probably talk about at some point. But I really enjoy doing this work right now. It's very fun and fulfilling for me. One of the reasons I took a step back to do this also from a full-time salary job is to be with my family. So I've got my husband here with me in Taiwan and two little ones. My oldest is almost five, and my younger one is two and a half. So I'm just enjoying spending a lot of time with him these days. So I feel like each day is very joyful, and I try to appreciate that. Because it's not always this great, but it is really great right now. Wow, that's amazing to hear. I feel like a two and a half and five-year-old kid are the best age ranges for children to be, in my opinion, as you want. They're super playful, but not too sassy just yet. But moving your children and family all the way to Taiwan is a huge step. What propelled your family to decide to make that move? Okay, so a bit of a long story. But people always ask how I ended up here, because though I speak Mandarin fluently, it's very obvious from my accent that I'm not Taiwanese. My family is from Beijing. That's where I was born, and we moved to the U.S. when I was seven. So when growing up, I never felt like – I didn't really identify super strongly with my Asian identity, actually. I was not a part of the Asian cliques at BLS. And it took me a while to come around to, oh, Chinese is actually something I really enjoy, I want to learn more about, maybe use professionally. And in 2013 is when we first visited Taiwan, and I really liked it. It was just kind of a backpacking experience with my husband. And when we left, we said, okay, this is fun. We'd love to experience how life is maybe working here. So when I went to graduate school and I got my master's in public policy at Duke, I did an internship in Taichung here for about three months in 2015. And then in 2016, I was like, okay, we can actually make the move, right, and be here full time. In some ways, I feel like we jokingly referred to it at the time as being a lifestyle refugee because we were kind of just interested in – it's so convenient, it's so good. The standard of living is very high, but the cost of living is really low in comparison. So it's that kind of like sweet spot. And it's so great. But honestly, I think I was interested in an experience living abroad, using my Mandarin skills more professionally, just doing something at a time when we felt like we had the freedom and latitude to do it. All our parents are doing well, but they're still healthy and everything. And they didn't need us super nearby. A funny story, actually, during the time that I'd been abroad, when I came back once, I was hanging out with all these BLS friends from my year, and somebody brought in the yearbook. They're like, look at this. And quizzing us on what we wrote in there because nobody remembered what they had written. But it was like goals and certain things. And one of them said, oh, wow, Connie, you're in the middle of one of these goals right now. I said, what did I write? And apparently, I wrote I aspire to live abroad for at least a decade. Oh, my God. So I guess I've always wanted to do it. I just don't remember. A lot of things you forget about high school. So yeah, you can look forward to that. Yeah. Anyway, yeah, so there's more to talk about. But in general, it's been really good here. And I think that though we came wanting to stay for two or three years, it grew to be much longer. I got a good job, which really I was like, okay, professionally, I could move back to the U.S. at any point and kind of keep going with my career. And I've had three jobs here so far. The first two were definitely not as good as the third one. And then while we were here, we got married and decided to have our first child. And then the pandemic hit. And so we stayed longer. And then we decided to have a second kid. So it's been nine years at this point. I did get my permanent residence card here. So I've been able to stay on without a job. And so that's what enabled me to pivot, start my own business. And we are thinking about moving back to the U.S. quite soon. So that's the long story of what you asked for. Wow. So many things that you said I want to hear so much more about. But first of all, I think it's wonderful that your jobs or job allowed you to afford the luxury of deciding whether or not to move. And, you know, I'm getting the vibe that your process and journey in Taiwan was very go-with-the-flow and super comforting and great to hear that you had a really good experience with it. Also, your mention of BLS and senior yearbooks is something I'm going to be going through very soon. So it's so interesting to hear your perspective and experience. Yeah. And I'm also curious. You mentioned your three jobs. What were they? So when we moved over here, I had a job offer from an international sort of startup. It was a social enterprise around building this model of early childhood development in Latin America, actually. And basically, they would take these women who ran kind of informal daycares by taking care of their neighbor's children and give them like actual early childhood education sort of training like Montessori style and upgrade their facilities and kind of increase their income. So there was a lot of things going on there. And I enjoyed working as a part of like an international team. I got to know my colleagues who were working in El Salvador and Guatemala. But I felt like that wasn't like a very sustainable long-term sort of thing. So I was looking around and I found another job at a Taiwanese organization, also a startup, which basically created educational videos to help high school students understand what college majors and college experiences were like. And because there's a higher education sort of crisis that's been happening here, there's way too many universities and not enough people to attend them is the shorthand version of things. And so universities are spending a lot on, you know, kind of like trying to market themselves in an authentic way. So that was a way in which the organization I was at was working with people. And that was also really fun. I got to visit so many universities in Taiwan. But I also got to see that the Taiwanese style of working with things is very like, very by the book, very driven by SOP, standard operating procedure, just really not as flexible. So at that point, it was like about almost two years later and we had said, so I quit that job and we were thinking we might go back to the States when I found the third job, which was working in the alumni office at Taipei American School. That's an international K-12 school here. That turned out to be the thing that really worked for me. You know, it was a wonderful working environment with great colleagues. I got to use so much of my Mandarin skills and do work with alumni networks, which I've always been very passionate about. So that was fantastic. And I held that for six years before I decided to commit myself to doing the entrepreneurship thing full time. Well, every single job, you've kind of been involved very passionately with education and career development. Can you speak more on how you became interested in education in the first place? Yeah, sure. So, you know, recently I attended BLS Career Day, actually for juniors. And a lot of people do ask, like, did you know what you wanted to do when you were in high school? And I said, you know, straight off, like, absolutely not, you know, because the sort of thing I'm doing now as a career coach for young adults, no idea. I have no idea if that existed in high school. But I would say the earliest inkling I had of being involved in education was that I made this sign after attending a few days of kindergarten in China and had my mom tape it, probably had my mom write it, actually, I don't remember, but had her tape it to our front door because I wanted to start a kindergarten myself. I just loved the experience of going to school. I had so much fun and I wanted to, like, teach other kids the same thing I was learning, you know. So that was, like, really adorable. But yeah, I kind of, I still, like, remember that. And when I was at BLS, it was a part of JCL. I don't know if you are or have friends who are very well-involved, but it's a big club, you know. It kind of started, actually, shortly before I got there. So it was still fairly new. And one of the things that we did was take the, we decided to run this review session for the National Latin Exam for other students who weren't a part of JCL. And, you know, you know the grammar, you know the vocab after taking so much Latin for so many years, but you don't know the daily life, like, what is Roman history, who are the seven emperors, you know, the kings, the bronze, and the monarchy. So we just, like, ran this review session. And what was scary was that, like, like, literally, like, 50 people showed up. And they were all just, like, taking notes on everything that I was saying for, like, a whole hour. And that was, like, really scary, but exciting. And afterwards, I remember telling our club sponsor that I was super tired, but I felt, like, very energized at the same time. And he was, like, yeah, that's what being a teacher feels like, is that's that feeling you get from being in the classroom. So I was, like, oh, I could maybe really actually do this. And then the funny thing is that I've never done classroom teaching yet. I run a lot of workshops and work individually with people. But at some point, I think during college, I was kind of worn away from being a classroom teacher because people said that the environment was not very good, you know, the benefits, and all of those things in schools. They're, like, you know, try some other things. So, and I didn't get into the Masters of Arts in Teaching program that I was interested in. In retrospect, it was a bad fit, but it kind of all directed me to go work in different things. So I did college access. I focused on educational policy when I was in grad school. The different jobs that I mentioned in Taiwan all kind of touched on education. I even did a little bit of graduate admissions consulting. And now, these days, I feel like I've kind of done every part of education or had some experience with it, except for classroom teaching. So that's what I'm doing a little bit more of, you know, and running my workshops as a career coach now. I do work with, I do kind of deliver lessons to classes. But this is the first subject that I've really felt passionate about, which is, like, okay, I want to be a teacher but in this subject. You know, it wasn't necessarily English or history or languages. It was this. So that's where I am now. That's amazing. I feel like we all have this canon event. Did you ever, like, get this gratification from creating a little mini worksheet and, like, giving it to a kid and making them do it and then grading it? Like, I made fake worksheets in kindergarten or in first grade to, like, the girls in grade below me. And I'd grade it and I felt so amazing doing it. That's really funny. I was going to say I do, like, that part of working in education is creating the lesson plans, creating a workshop, usually a lot of presentations these days. You know, it's all Google Slides and sharing it with people. And it's, I think that's been a lot of fun but also, like, you know, I also did tutoring when I was in college and I remember at first I think it was very much about me and, like, oh, I'm very good at history. I'm very good at languages. I'm hoping that you'll ask for help with social studies. Nobody needed any of that. All these students in Chicago public schools were just struggling with algebra. So I was doing the slope formula like every single day with these kids. And I think that was a thing that I didn't expect but drew me back to education was you learn a lot about yourself. You also, like, subvert all these expectations that you have about, like, what people really, like, need, you know, versus what you think they need. And so it's really it's good for, like, not just living in your head because then all the experience has to actually be transmitted to other people and that's very challenging to actually teach somebody something. So I think that I learn a lot and that's part of why I like being in education. I love that you kind of talked about the different dynamics between classroom teaching and kind of the coaching. I feel like you kind of gravitate towards the coaching aspect. It comes to another issue that we probably won't go into but the whole education system like for elementary schools is quite corrupt or fragmented and it's quite difficult to, like, have an equitable education nowadays and that's a big issue and I know a lot of teachers are pretty disappointed or disillusioned with how the system is. Yeah. Yeah. I do I do see that and by the time I left the U.S. after, you know, working with universities and kind of college access for a while I was at a similar state because, you know, you just see all the barriers that people face in kind of having a good life or doing what they would want to do and a lot of schools are, you know, provided free of charge to help people hopefully take advantage of things and do what they want to do in life but they weren't really fulfilling the promise and it was very disappointing. Now in Asia after being here for nine years I've seen schools fail people in a very different way and I have a deeper appreciation that, like, even though you've got a lot of issues going on, you know, in the U.S., there's a fundamental, like, philosophical difference between education here versus education back in the U.S. that I think for a lot of people it's, you know, even the worst off school, you know, where they don't have, like, supplies or they don't have, like, teachers who are well-trained, there's still this understanding that you're supposed to be in school to, like, learn something and then you can, so you can have, like, opinions, you know, so you can decide for yourself what to do in the world. I think that's really important. I mean, I've seen people write essays about what you think about the story or, like, how you make an argument, like, how you think this thing in history wasn't correct or whatever, and I see there's still this big dedication to helping people, like, think through things, some sort of critical thinking that's honestly, like, really missing in Asian schools, other than just, like, lecturing students, as long as they're, like, answering questions, having them do a little bit of group work, it's super, like, basic stuff, I think, you know, for education. American schools are still going to have, like, this, like, really interesting and kind of invisible leg up compared to Asian schools, right, in terms of helping people, like, so, dive more deeper into that. Can you talk more about how individualism in the Western societies, like the U.S., and that contrast with the Eastern cultures of collectivism and those values of harmony, like, how do you see that play out in education, and therefore, how people approach life in general, like, success? Yeah, okay, so, in some ways, I was very steeped in it, you know, as a kid, right, that's the philosophical sort of approach my parents had, and then I see it all the time here and now. So, it's actually a little bit difficult to talk about, like, the water that you're swimming in, but for people who are not as familiar, when you are taught that, you know, the greater good of a community, it tends to create this educational environment where people are not speaking up as much, right? The teacher is older, so you listen to the teacher, you don't ask questions unless the teacher specifically invites you, and most teachers don't know how to respond to questions or haven't been taught to, like, incorporate into their educational approach, you know, you kind of don't speak up. Your work will speak for itself, so just put your head down and do the work, you know? So, that's what I see happening with classes, with people, but it translates to a lot of self-doubt, I think. You know, they have questions and they feel so lonely, whereas, in fact, many other places, you know, somebody who's coming in from a sort of Western approach will be like, well, if you have any questions, just let me know, and they assume that no questions equals everyone knows exactly what's going on and can fulfill their jobs, but in fact, there's, like, big problems that people don't know how to communicate about that, and people do feel free to say a lot more to speak up to make their opinion known, and I think it can, the sort of desire to fit in, go with the flow, not, you know, the nail that sticks up gets hammered down, that sort of approach has some useful elements for sure, like during the pandemic when we were here, people were wearing masks as soon as they realized there was something going on. Frequently, I would find myself on the MRT and be the only people without masks on, but everyone else, not only had them, because they already had them at home, but were wearing them, and the mask compliance is still very high, so it's a disadvantage for you. The organization is less robust when people are not challenging what's going on and raising awareness of weaknesses so they can improve them, and then individuals, it's just, I see a lot of people in Taiwan right now saying job dissatisfaction is very high, because there's very little communication going on about these issues, and I don't want to make the money. I don't really need to be happy at work. That would be nice, but I'm not looking for it. I just want to get money and then go spend time with my family or friends or do whatever else that actually fulfills me. Those observations are so interesting. I grew up in Taiwan, and I saw this at the organizations that I was at, especially my last organization at Tech American School. I feel like there were a lot of local Taiwanese teachers working alongside Western teachers, and I think sometimes there were those sorts of misunderstandings. I also talk and work with people now who are at schools and they want to train students, especially those who are going to go off to the U.S. or Canada or some other Western country. They want to help students get to that approach. They've been working with many years of students, so they've seen other people come back and tell them this is the problem or I have witnessed this issue. They're like, how do I get them to tell me when they run into a problem or when there's an issue? It's so hard to get them to speak honestly to me. As a professional, I do pay a lot of attention to what people tell me about that sort of working place. I'm naturally curious about it and how you deal with that. I'm curious as a career coach perspective, how would you advise someone to overcome this or have you even had to overcome it yourself? From a career coach perspective, I do work with people in identifying these sorts of issues and I think the first step is awareness that this is a cultural gap. In Western culture, you're expected to, in a work place, advocate for yourself, tell your boss about the great things you did or accept credit and praise for it, maybe give feedback on what's going on with the team or with each other. Just speak up in general. It's not them that's broken. It's not a personal internal issue. It is a cultural gap which many people experience and run across. It's a part of the landscape. If you want to work in that Western style company or move to the U.S. and work there, you have to get accustomed to how people perceive you and how they perceive you. If you want to come back to Taiwan at some point, they might need to consciously change the way that they're working yet again because those sorts of skills don't necessarily serve them well in a Taiwanese environment. You have to pick and choose. You might find yourself working with a Taiwanese boss who expects you to literally drop everything you're doing and run to their office if they need you for something. First of all, you want to bring everybody's awareness to that. Then they can start making decisions like, is this the skill set I want to acquire? Is this the divide I want to be crossing all the time? I feel like I'm very extroverted. I have no problems telling people about my issues. I'm pretty westernized, I feel. In fact, I have had some experiences where I'm like, okay, it's better to be humble, keep my head down, learn a lot before going out there and saying, okay, I can lead. I can do more. Then I realized that wasn't a great idea. During grad school, I had this experience where I was volunteering. All these grad students could volunteer for this pro bono consulting group for non-profits. You could either indicate your interest in being a team member, and there would be between four to seven people who were working on the team and doing the work, or you could volunteer to be a team member. It was amazing with the client and led the whole project. I did one semester where I was a team member, and I was like, that was great. I learned a lot. In the second semester, I was interested in a manager position, but I thought I should probably learn more. I had such a great manager. I had done this sort of pro bono consulting before, and it was in fact very terrible at liaising with the client. I just had such a negative experience with that. It made me very frustrated, and it was doubly so because I realized if I had volunteered for the manager position, I was definitely doing myself a disservice. It's possibly not even helping the people around me. Again, my instinct is to say I'm doing okay, but I could be better, I could be improving. That's what the very Asian part of me that has humility says, but that doesn't always lead to a great outcome. I would say that I'm not the right person. Now I try to be a lot more aware of where am I actually probably one of the best people to actually do something. If I am the right person, I should just say so. I shouldn't hold back just because I don't want to take a chance. Did you see a lot of people like you doing those kinds of things? There were actually a lot of Asian students working in this group. I had actually an Asian woman who was the manager for my first team that went really well. I saw very good examples of leadership. The second person that I worked with was an Asian woman. I recognized he thought this would be a good experience for me. I think it was a good experience for him. Why didn't I think of that for myself? I see. That's so interesting because I feel that in a lot of other corporate or consulting or work environments, there's always a lot of pressure from multiple people. It depends on where you are and what you're doing. I was curious because I wasn't sure if it was a personality thing that held me back. It's great to hear that that was not your experience. Hearing that is quite reassuring. Yeah. I would say if anything, it probably had to do more with how I see myself as a woman. I'm a fairly extroverted, very loud woman, but I have seen, and some of this rings true to me, when trying to apply for a job, women will want to fulfill 100%, 110% of the job description qualifications before they go apply for something, whereas men will see that they fit about 60% and 70% and say, okay, let's give it a shot. I do want to encourage people to, you know, your own confidence is always informed by your own abilities in some ways, but your abilities don't have to be perfect. I feel like your extrovertedness and even your loudness or boldness led you to success or more opportunities, especially probably in both contexts, western and eastern, it seems. I'm wondering, like, is that a characteristic or are there any specific characteristics that you can instantly pick out and be like, wow, that person is a leader or is it a very smart person or is it a really good person? So I've definitely been able to kind of recognize after 10, 15 seconds of meeting with a young adult is they naturally are very decisive, I would say. They have a clear idea of what it is they like to do or want to do or something. I think that's all you can ask for at this time. But I think that to broaden it a little bit, leadership requires a whole lot more than that, which all of which can be and should be learned by people, so that is very much acquired, the ability to listen and be willing to listen to people that you disagree with, how to make sacrifices for other people, how having a vision for the whole team or having a vision that influences the success of what you're doing, a lot of that can take time and practice, so everyone can learn that, and I do see now, having worked for a while, I know some very excellent leaders who are strongly introverted, and it's always a bit of a surprise to hear that they would much rather be, you know, kind of introverted, and they have lots of things that I think make people want to follow them and do things with them and work with them, so the two can really be separated very much, so those are some layers that I think about when asked about leadership. It's very hard to say that there's an innate leadership that you see in young adults because it's fundamentally about working hard, and if you're doing well and can express that, then you're doing well, and you can then kind of keep learning and becoming a better leader over time. I think you embody so many of those qualities. As a leader yourself, what is your proudest accomplishment in that realm of leadership? It's funny to think about leadership. I've been leading my small business so far as a career coach for young adults. I started it with a three-week-long class that I was running during the summer, and that started in 2021, so I've been doing it for over four years, and so this year would be my fifth year. That was helping high school students transition to college. I put into it a lot of things I've been thinking about for a long time and trying out, and now in my business I'm expounding on a lot of each of those things and cultivating individual workshops or working one-on-one with people for more specific aims that they have, because the class is very broad. I think the way in which I can be said to be the best at this, because it's a business of one, it's just me, and I don't have a bunch of other people that I'm working with and managing, I think the part in which I'm being a leader is I do hear some people say, I'm glad that you're doing this sort of work, and they're in a similar field. They also work with adults, but it's for an area. And then other people have also specifically the clients I've had and the young adults I meet and start working with, they're like, I'm glad somebody is here to do something like this for me, so they also see the value in what I'm doing. 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