covid podcast

Glenn Fletcher and Terri Blanton discuss the impact of COVID-19 on healthcare workers. They highlight the increasing number of cases and deaths in the United States and globally. Terri shares her personal experiences working in the ICU and the challenges they faced, including staff shortages and the emotional toll of caring for critically ill patients. They also discuss the difficulties in allowing patients to communicate with their families and the strain on healthcare systems. Hey, good afternoon. My name is Glenn Fletcher. I'm a nurse here at United General Medical Center in Cedar Woolley, and I'm here with Terri Blanton. She's a nurse I work with here in Surgical Services. How long have you been here in Surgical Services, Terri? Close to two years now. Okay. We're happy, Terri and I are both happy to bring you the second installment of the Caregiver Chronicles, where we're trying to highlight nurses that work at United General Medical Center, their lives, things that they've gone through, and explore different facets of experiences they've had, for the good and for the bad. Well, today we're coming to you with a not-so-controversial topic on COVID. No controversy there, is there? No. Well, let's start the conversation by just going over a few statistics about COVID that I managed to glean from the internet about five minutes ago. According to the COVID-19 dashboard, there's been 676 million cases of COVID worldwide, 6.8 million deaths in the United States alone, 103 million reported infections, and 1.123 million deaths. And I just pulled up today the New York Times tracker on COVID, and according to the New York Times, at least today, there has been about 2,423 weekly deaths from COVID. It's a little bit alarming, but if you look at the estimated annual deaths in the United States, from all sources, it's pretty alarming. Cancer, heart disease is, of course, the number one killer of Americans, about 700,000 people a year. Cancer is next with 600,000. COVID is creeping up the list, 416,000 annual deaths from COVID. That's quite a few. Those numbers are alarming. Isn't it? Mm-hmm. Did you know anybody personally during COVID that passed away? Several patients that I cared for and got to know that way, but no one in my immediate circle. Okay. Nobody in my immediate family passed away, although I did have a – I knew six people personally that died from COVID, my aunt and my uncle, which is my immediate family. They live quite a ways away. My daycare teacher's father passed away from – my son's daycare teacher's father passed away from COVID. A good friend of mine living in Minnesota passed away from COVID, and I also had my wife's cousin, who was a Marine and in great shape, passed away from COVID. So, Terry, tell me – let's set the table like this. It's early January of 2020. The first reported case of COVID, which is now widely recognized to be a pneumonia cluster, was reported out of China December 31st, almost New Year's Eve 2019. By early January of 2020, we were kind of in the weeds. The first reported case of COVID – I don't know if you remember, this was right down the road at a life care center just south of us, about 30 miles. It occurred on January 21st, 2020. The first reported case of COVID. The first reported death of COVID occurred on February 6th, 2020, and believe it or not, just three short months later, by May 27th of 2020, the United States had logged 100,000 deaths from COVID. So within three months, we went from one death to 100,000 deaths. It was a scary, scary time. It was. I remember when I was sitting at home with my wife – I'm kind of a news junkie, you know this about me, I watch the news a lot – I had heard that China was shutting down the city of Wuhan. I did a little research about that today. That occurred on January 23rd. That shutdown, the general population area in effect was 56 million people. I remember when the story came across January 23rd, I looked at my wife and I said, you know, China doesn't generally shut down much for anything. At that time, it sounds strange, but I took aggressive action to go to Costco and I loaded up on toilet paper. I may have been the first person. I may have been way ahead of the curve. There's a lot. That is the guy. Spread the word. So tell me, it's early January 2020. You're working where? I'm working at Island Hospital in Ann Arbor. And what department? I work in the ICU, six-bed ICU. So the really, the most critically infected patients, ill patients you're working with on a daily basis. Yes. It's early January of 2020. You hear about COVID. Tell me, how did you feel? What was your first initial reaction as the news reports came in? Well, it was scary and alarming, but we really didn't know the depth of it. You know, I can remember the first COVID patients that I had. I remember walking into the room and holding my breath to turn off a light. You know, that's the old school nurse, easy. Oh, I won't, nothing will happen to me. We learned quickly that that was not the case. The first reported case, you knew they were COVID positive? Yes. The test has started to come out. And so we just thought it was like any other pneumonia would be easily treated. We had no idea the extent of COVID. Or how contagious it was. Correct. So you're in the ICU. It's January. Now around February, your cases are starting to roll in the door. You're a six-bed ICU hospital. Do you have one nurse per bed in the ICU at this time? No, the standard is usually two patients to one nurse in the ICU, depending on their acuity. Okay. And we just didn't have the staff. It was usually two patients to one, whether they were on a ventilator, whether they were COVID positive, they would try to cluster the COVID patients. So one nurse would take the two COVID patients that were in there or, you know, would try to even it out that way. Okay. It was never easy. And were there times when you were in the ICU with these patients that you were working with two ventilated patients at the same time? Absolutely. Before COVID, how many patients, I mean, on average, do you have many patients on a ventilator before COVID in the ICU? Yes, a fair amount. A fair amount. It was usually short-lived, you know, post-op, you know, or respiratory distress or illness. You know, for a few days, we would have people on vents and would, you know, quickly try to get them off. Right, right. Now, it seems to me, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, that at the time COVID patients started to be ventilated, if you had to go on a vent, there was a good chance, at least a 50 percent chance, you would not come off that vent. I would, I don't know the numbers, but I would venture to say that it was greater than 50 percent. It was a scary, scary time. And the people in this situation that are going on the ventilator, at this point in time, some of them are consciously aware they're going to have to be put on a ventilator. Most. I won't say all, but I would say the majority of them. And they realize that going on the ventilator, as the patients start to come in and the statistics start to mount, that there's a good chance this is their last moment to be outwardly conscious, because you're not very conscious on a ventilator, right? No, no, no. That would be miserable. Oh, yeah. No, you would be sedated and ventilated on the ventilator. Many conversations with many families over the phone because they weren't allowed in the room. Wow, wow. I can remember putting my own cell phone in a Ziploc bag for someone to, you know, FaceTime their family. Wow. It was unreal. Wow. And this is all occurring in the context of a situation in which the person is critically ill. Yes. They need to be ventilated to stay alive, but they've got an extremely limited amount of time to be able to converse with their relatives, which could be the last timeline that they have to do this. And trying to allow them to have that conversation with their family, also try to educate the family with what we're doing, because they're angry that we won't let them in. It was a weird situation to be in. You know, in the ICU where the family members generally aren't as involved with their families about to be ventilated, did the discussions get pretty hot and angry about their ability to have face-to-face time with the dying relative? It was more, yes, I think they did, but we would have to turn those to the physician. We were at the bedside and, you know, in the midst of trying to save these people's lives. Sure. No matter what the family is saying to be necessary. Sure. So, the COVID cases are starting to come in, but you also have critically ill people that you have to take care of besides COVID. Yes. So, this is early January of 2020. As best you can recall, when did the situation become almost untenable where the patient load was great, the acuity was great, it wasn't stopping? How did you feel when that happened? Do you remember when that started to occur? I remember exactly. Not the date on the calendar, but, you know, the word came down the pipeline that we would have to be completely in PPE, head-to-toe, 12 hours, you know, the mass contagious virus. They had big tents outside the hospital that they were testing people. No visitors coming in or very limited visitors, only a few, you know, were expected to die in the next few hours were visitors allowed. And that was even on the non-COVID patients. Wow. That was hospital-wide. And I don't usually post anything on Facebook. Long time stalker. And I just remember seeing some meme about these colonial, you know, Paul Revere riders that said, we ride at dawn, bitches. And I sent that to all my coworkers because we didn't know what we were coming into at 7 o'clock the next morning. Well, not only did you not know what you were coming into, but the general population is not the only people getting sick. Staff members are becoming sick. Definitely. Definitely. And so every day you wake up to come to work, you're wondering how short-staffed you're going to be. Exactly. Did you find yourself becoming short-staffed quite often? Oh, absolutely. I know with this hospital at United General and Cedar Woolley, we shut down basically every non-essential service to prepare for COVID. The same thing occurred at Anacortes. Absolutely. And did they shift personnel and train personnel to the ICU to be able to help? Yeah, as able. As able. Okay. It was a very, very time with staffing, with all of it. We just didn't know what we didn't know. Right. And I think that's probably across the board at all health care facilities. I don't want to be from an island under the bus at all. No, no, no. But that was a scary time. It was like that at all facilities. In fact, even under the best of circumstances, hospitals are short-staffed today. Absolutely. So in the ICU with these critically ill patients, you must perform CPR fairly regularly. But I imagine with COVID, this starts to increase. Actually, there were usually pretty frank conversations to get to that point. Okay. And by frank, I mean, would you like me to pound on your chest to save your life? It's not a guarantee. And they were pretty blunt conversations. We didn't have a lot of time. Right. And so we had to start those conversations early with the patient and the family. Right. Whether it be the ER physicians, the ER staff, by the time they came and submitted it up to us, by the hospitalists, ICU nurses. We would at least put these ideas in their head that this could be a real possibility. Right. So at this point in time, with the population group you're facing, these conversations are leading to less instances of needing to do CPR because people have realized, you know, this is very serious. And if I need CPR, my chances of recovering from the CPR and the illness are very small to begin with. Yes, I agree with that. I think that our population over there is a little bit of an elderly population. Sure. It's kind of a retirement community. Right, right. And so we just left those doctors that fill out those poll forms and have these conversations with people in the outpatient setting. It helps everybody. COVID or not, you know, you have to have these real-life conversations. Absolutely, yes. Most people delay that conversation until the inevitable moment it's needed and then it's too late. And then it's too late. So you've been here now at United for two years, which means you spent over two years in the throes of COVID at Anacortes. Absolutely. It's impossible for you to know this, but during your course of time in Anacortes, just to be blunt, how many people passed away at the hospital that you actively helped to take home? I would say, you know, again, I don't have the exact numbers, but I would say we had 100 deaths related to COVID. Wow. At some point in their care, whether they got intubated or not, several of them turned to comfort care. Okay. And several of them we moved to Seattle. Okay. And so I don't know a lot of the outcome. I do remember our very first very, very sick COVID patient being like in his 30s. Okay. You know, we're working hard for this guy. Right. And, in fact, it was two nurses to one patient during that time, during that specific case. Okay. And he was a fisherman from Alaska. You know, probably not the healthiest activities, but he was a fit young man. And he was very, very sick, and he required intubation. And we flew him down south to wherever would accept him. It was UW or Harvard U. And he was in a life-saving ECMO for this guy. Wow. And that is the last ditch effort. Absolutely. And not always effective. Sure. And then we got word that this guy had lived and came back to Anacortes, and, oh, that made it all worth it. Wow. Did you have a chance to see him after? I have not. I have not. Okay. I just heard reports. In preparation for this podcast with you, I talked to a number of nurses that work here at United General about their time as COVID nurses. They were in the trenches as you were. I must admit I wasn't. I was here at United General in Surgical Services waiting to be called out to do something more dramatic, but my time never did arrive. But a number of nurses, in fact, every other nurse that I've talked to except for you, because of the terrible time that happened, suffers, honestly suffers from post-traumatic stress disorder. Oh, completely. And when I bring up a subject of interviewing for a podcast like this, it's not just, no, I don't want to do that. It's a firm no. It's traumatic. Even talking to them about the possibility of speaking about their situation in COVID, they start to tear up and cry. Yes. You're here with me today. You're talking about COVID. You seem to have crossed the Rubicon to be able to talk about the traumatic experience. I think that I'm in a different stage of life. These people were going home to young children, infants, babies, toddlers. My children were grown in college, so I really didn't have those concerns as much. And I also thought, if I'm not going to face this head-on after being in the ICU for 20-plus years, who's going to? Right. And I was lucky enough to have some great people that just, one of them had young children as well, and she had a lot to deal with emotionally. Sure. Every day on the way to work, every day on the way home to work. Right. Or from work. And then another gal who was just young and just married, we were all at different stages, but we were a good team. We had a lot of probably life-altering events. Yeah, and that's the reason we're here today is to talk about these life-altering events and how it's changed our relationship to health care. You just mentioned that a lot of the nurses coming to work and refusing to want to, not refusing, but declining to be interviewed for this, have a variety of different reasons, but the fact that they had family members at home, young children, the fact that maybe the person that they were living with, their spouse or significant other, whoever was involved, could not be employed at the time because of the shutdown. Right. When you left for work and got back home, did you leave your clothes on the doorstep, run, take a shower, and try to decontaminate yourself best before you walked in the door? Absolutely. We all did. Yes, absolutely. As COVID happened and our resources started to become depleted and hospitals were shut down, we saw a dramatic shift in the way the things we used to do were done versus the way that we were going to do them. Talk to me a little bit about the things that you started to notice. We mentioned earlier the COVID, the N95 mask. Yes. Tell me when you were first asked to start reusing your COVID mask, N95, the simple piece of protective barrier, we're all familiar with it, and you used it and disposed of it. This has always been the practice. Now things have changed. You need to reuse this mask. How are you feeling about this? Yes, amazed. Maybe that it wasn't as bad as we were hearing on the news. Okay. We were issued one N95 mask with a brown paper bag to store it in to allow it air to circulate. The brown paper bag. Seriously. Yes, but then all the brown paper bags were all thrown in the same cupboard together with everybody else's and stuff. That made us think, okay, we can roll with this, I guess. Then the facts were becoming more and more clear nationwide. Yes, the transmissibility, the fatality level. This is a true pandemic. Right, a true pandemic. Yes. Something we haven't seen for 100 years. Right, right. We were still just getting these N95s. The thought was that we needed the pappers over the completely negative pressure zoot suits. For people not familiar, maybe listening to this podcast, this is a mask, an entire hood and system you put over your face, which blows recycled air into you and filters it. You would see people on the news all the time. Yes. That would be a 12-hour gig. Wow. In that thing. Wow. If you came out of the room, because you had to go to the restroom yourself. Wow. You had to completely soften, don the equipment, freshly clean it, go to the restroom, don it again, and go back in. It was a crazy time. Unbelievable. The very fact that this had come upon the healthcare system and we were underprepared for it. To the credit of most healthcare workers, I know they stuck through it. They came to work every day. They did their job. We had reservations. You, of course, more than I did by far. Did you lose many coworkers to COVID? Did they finally come to a point in their time where they said, you know, it's like being in a war every day. I can't take it anymore. Absolutely. A lot of staff. Number one, with the mandatory COVID vaccination. Okay. So that was a big deal for a lot of people. And then the ones that were willing to do it, like most of us, really. Some had terrible, terrible reactions to that. Absolutely. The medical do not get the booster. And, well, then for a while they didn't, weren't able to work, you know, for the hospital regulations or whatever. You needed to be fully vaccinated. Right, right. And so a lot of, I can think of two or three of very strong nurses or one in particular, CNA, that had worked so hard to get through nursing school, just got a great gig as an RN. But she had medical relief for the rest of her COVID shot, you know, and she agreed to wear masks with everyone. And she had to seek out another job. Right, yeah. To start her nursing career. Right. I personally lost a number of coworkers to the vaccine mandate, as I know you did. We're not going to delve into the controversy as far as that's concerned. But, of course, you and I were both vaccinated. To this day I have not had COVID. Have you had COVID? I did, I think. Okay. I tested once. Okay. And it was an at-home test. Okay. I've tested every time I've been ill in any way. My friend recently said to me, Glenn, don't fool yourself, everyone on the planet has had COVID. I believe that. I do, too. I really do believe that that's true. As you're going through this very difficult time, you're working 12-hour shifts? Yes. Three days a week or more? Usually we were picking up more shifts because we were so short-staffed and lots of travel. Right. That's when the big travel nurse boom kind of kicked in. And so, yeah. So you're working 12-hour shifts. You're encapsulated in a paper. You're exhausted, drained. You're wondering if you're going to get sick. Bring it home to your family. How do you get through this, Terry? What support system do you have to be able to rise up every morning, go to work, and dig into the trenches to take care of sick people, knowing very well that it could be a situation of you getting sick the very next day? I don't really think it's anything that glamorous or anything that I do to pull from. That's interesting. I'm just a worker. Okay. I've always been a worker bee. Okay. It's the job in front of me. And, again, who else was going to do it? I was the most senior member in that IT unit. And so I need to kind of set the precedence. Wow. So not only are you working in the ICU, but you're in a position of leadership? Well, it was... Or seniority? Seniority. Okay. And, no, I avoided leadership at all. Yeah. You and I have that distinct similarity. So you've been there the longest of anybody else. So when you get home after these long shifts and you're thinking about going to work, what do you do to decompress? How do you take all the trauma, tragedy, and illness and death that you're seeing constantly now on a daily basis? How do you not internalize that? And what do you do to... I would say that a lot of it... My daughter was in college at the time and, in fact, did not get to walk for her graduation. Oh, okay. It was 2020. Yeah. After we booked all the room, planned the little party. Right. So that was a little distressing. She got her diploma from a university in the mail. Okay. So that was kind of a bit of a downer, but she was always... I've always spoke to her about medical stuff. She gets it. She understands. So she was a good little outlet for me. I would walk my dog incessantly. I would be outside no matter what the weather because you were in that hospital, in that garb. You needed to breathe fresh air. Right. I would not talk to my husband, who I've been married to for 33 years, about it much because there were conflicting views in my home. I understand, yes. I think a lot of us can say that. Right, right, right. And so we just chose not to discuss that. Okay. And it's worked out okay, and we're still married, and we're on the other side of it now. So you mentioned that your family had conflicting views about COVID. I think we're seeing a lot of that in the different aspects of our life in a lot of situations. Was it hard to resolve that conflict, your conflict at home among your family members? Was it a situation where you just had to sit there with your mouth shut, or are you guys kind of the people that do bring it up and talk about it? It would depend on who was in the room because I'm not one to keep my mouth shut, unfortunately. That's okay. But lots of times I would have to leave the room if we were with a group of people or having a couple beers with friends and family, and the talk got weird, got political, got non-factual. I would sometimes just leave. If they asked me my stance, I would give it to them, show them the tweet, and just say, I follow the science. Okay. Fauci's not a bad dad. Then when they would rattle on, I would go elsewhere. Okay. We've gone through this crisis. It's changed you. Tell me in some way, from the start of COVID, you've worked in the trenches, you've been in the ICU, you've experienced all this trauma. You're now here working with me in surgery, you work in the recovery room. We're not at the level of intense trauma that we were feeling. How has COVID changed you as a nurse? What would you say – what did you take away from this experience with COVID? How has it changed you? Well, it's changed so many things. So many things. I think that it's a virus. It's out there. We're all at risk. There are many viruses, flu, that we're all at risk for, for example, that we're all at risk for. More every day, it seems like we're hearing about. Yeah, absolutely. It just makes me view each patient a little more individually. Like, what about this fellow that came for colonoscopy? You know, we'll take every practice to maintain our safety and everything. But what if, you know, he were to lose his wife or to lose his son to this? It was a big deal. Lots of people lost lots of family members. They did. And I don't belittle that at all. As a nurse, has it changed your practice? Has it changed how you view medicine in the United States? Oh, yeah. I care not to go into that too much. Let's try to stay away from the – let's try to stay above the phrase as far as controversy is concerned. But let's go back to the fact that a pandemic is occurring. We're supposed to throw away disposable equipment after every use, and now we're being asked to reuse it. Now the pandemic, I won't say, is over. We're experiencing 2,400 deaths a week in the United States from the pandemic. But yet we're back to single-use items. In a realistic world where these things were asked to be done, and I don't think any increase in transmission of infection was seen because of the practices, we're wasting resources. Do you feel as healthcare providers that we turn the corner to try to preserve resources during a crisis, and now we've gone back to, you know, the standard of practice, which is our best and most ethical care? However, is it eating up valuable resources that we could be saving? That's a good question, Glenn. I think that as nurses, we probably should have been masking with patient care for some patients years and years ago. We've been pretty cavalier about that in the last 20 years, I think. Yes, yes. And, like, I remember when I first started, we didn't wear gloves. It was promoted to touch your patient skin to skin. Absolutely. So it was hard for me to even get with those practices. That's how long I've been here. Right, sure. And some patients, they can't hear you. You have to remove your mask. They read your lips. But I don't know about the – It seems to me that you would think that best practice is best practice. Of course it is. But maybe some more research should be done on the need to reuse some medical items that might necessarily be transmitting infections. Correct. Tell me about your time at Anacortes. You mentioned one gentleman, the fisherman, your very first case, which was a success story. Tell me about one of your – if you can, if you can talk about it – one of the most traumatic situations that you saw, something that might stick with you from your time as a COVID nurse. I can group several people into this. Okay, that would be great. And they were people that said, this is not real. Really? That this is not real. They would not – they would be just – So without diving into the woods too much, these are people that are sick that have come to your hospital. Very sick. And I think I'm subtly taking up from you that at the time that they're being admitted to the hospital for a life-threatening illness, they don't actually believe in the illness. Absolutely. Well, they say it's COVID, quote, unquote. But it is, quote, COVID, sir, and this is how we're going to treat it. Sure. And some of them would refuse. Refuse, even as they're actively dying. Refuse to get prone, you know, because that was part of the treatment. Okay. You would prone the patient to aerate the base of their lungs. Yes. And they would refuse. Refuse, no, it hurts my back. And, well, we can treat your back pain, but you've got to breathe, sir. And it was terrible to see the non-believers, and I don't use that word casually. Yeah, I understand. Everyone can believe what they want to believe. Absolutely. But it was hard to be respectful in a care manner while they're giving abuse and their family's giving abuse when we're trying to help that person. I imagine that's very difficult. Yeah, it was tough. But then they would realize that they're getting sicker every day, even though some of them would be just fine on the dotted line and say, yes, we'll do whatever to get better. This is terrible. And it was great to see those people get better, you know, maybe just need some oxygen and not go forward to need, like, a BiPAP or then a ventilator. But I can remember several of them just, no, no, I can't do that. And then, you know, they couldn't breathe. It was a terrible, terrible thing to watch. Sure. And then at the very end, well, I'll take the vaccine now. Really? So many. Really? I could count on, you know, more than my two hands on people that would say, okay, I guess it's real. In a situation where the vaccine will no longer be effective, they are now willing to be vaccinated. Yes. It was a crazy situation. I imagine because of the nature of the person you're dealing with, their family might be in the same boat. They had not been vaccinated. Correct. Did you see a lot of family members at that time? Did it change their mind to become vaccinated? I would hope so. You don't know. I don't really know. Because you didn't deal out with the family members. They were isolated numbers. Right, right, right. Did you deal with many patients that were on the upswing looking good and the next day came to work and they were no longer on the upswing? Yes, yes. It happened quickly. So, you know, in a normal situation where there's a lot of communication between the doctor and the patient's family, I imagine that after a certain point in time the doctors would stop saying things are looking good or better. Yeah, it was a weird situation. And working at a place with a hospitalist, you know, sometimes there would be a different physician every day or every 24 hours or 48 hours. And so it was difficult to get a plan of care with some of them that would want to keep them at the local hospital, even though they would benefit at one of the tertiary centers. It was tough. It was tough. I don't know exactly what the doctors were saying to the patients. Right. I was oblivious to that. Sure. Most of us were. We've gone through this terrible pandemic. Literally millions of people have died. You were in the trenches with people actively dying. If tomorrow you heard that they had closed down a market in Wuhan, that there was a virus spreading and pneumonia was a cluster of pneumonia, of course it would all tickle our spidey senses. If there was a possibility that this situation would occur again, would you continue to be a nurse? Absolutely. Okay. And I would go to an ICU situation where I could, you know, hopefully help. You would. That's wonderful. That's wonderful. Would you, PeaceHealth no longer requires vaccination. Do you still get vaccinated for COVID? I have gotten, I don't think I've gotten the last, the most recent visitor. Okay. And that's just a matter of, yes, I intend to continue to get fully vaccinated for everything that's recommended by the CDC. Not to discuss your old job or you're leaving there, but was the fact that you went through COVID in that very difficult time a reason you're working at United General today? Did you need a change of scenery? I think I did. I know I did. And it's probably taken me, and change is hard. You know, you know what you know, and you've done it for so many years. It is. It's very hard. It was a big deal for me to change. And it's probably taken me probably a year and a half to kind of shift gears to this new department, to the surgery center, that everything's clean, everything's very high and tight. Right. You know, working in surgery, we use the word sterile a lot. There's a difference between sterile and clean, but it does rise to a different level of cleanliness. Absolutely. Absolutely. Has your experience with COVID shortened your expectations of your career? Do you think you'll retire earlier? Has it burnt you out? I think it completely burns us all out. And those who can draw on something and still have a nursing career is great. This is probably my retirement gig here. Good, good. Well, I look forward to spending the end of my career with you. Okay, good to hear. Yeah. It's a great place. It's a great team. It is a complete change of pace for me, and I'm thrilled to be here. It's a wonderful little place to work, isn't it? Yes. Our little slice of heaven in the Pacific Northwest. Very much. With this interview, what would you like to let people know about Terry as far as a nurse goes in COVID? I know it's hard to bring stuff out about yourself and talk about yourself, but let me try to lead into some examples. This will probably be something we edit out of here, but what am I trying to say? You'll have to give me a minute to think. Well, is there anything that you would like to say about your role as a nurse or how COVID has changed your life in any way? Oh, I think that I just, again, would encourage people to follow the science. Okay. I do feel like I put up with very little bullshit in my life anymore and my family's life. Got you. Has it made you more forceful in your exclamations of what you believe in when people come? Yeah, and that depends on the audience. Yes. Because I really prefer the path of least resistance at this point in my life. But I just know that I personally would just take things by the horns and just roll with it. If I could help somebody in any situation, COVID, Alzheimer's, anything, you know, just to be respectful of those patients until the end. Right. And, I mean, that's their life. That's their mother. That's their father. That's their child. If you had to do it over again when these people were actively dying in the ICU, is an ICU a place where people's families normally congregate around them as they are actively ill, or is that something you try to keep the family members out of? Absolutely not. Family presence at the end of life is very, very important. So if we had to do it again, even with the transmissibility of the organism, would you bring the family members into the ICU, or would you say, you know, because of the transmissibility of this virus, we'd rather have you not here at this time? You know, because end of life is the moment where this is it. I would leave it up to that family. Okay. If they wanted to do that, then I would provide them with the proper PPE, if that was their choice. Dying in the ICU is a rough situation. Yes. It's not cool. Do you think that we're prepared for the next pandemic? I don't know. I hope to never see another pandemic. I know. How could we be prepared? Right. Yeah. Right. So, you know, Terri, thank you for coming today to this interview. As I've been speaking to you, you don't hold yourself to be a hero. I just want to let you know you are a hero to me, to the family members you've been working with, to our health care system, not only to be able to do what you've done, but be able to talk about it at the end and offer, you know, honest recommendations and opinions. Thank you for helping out all those family members. I look like one of the signs outside the hospital, the little hero sign that we all laughed at. I know. To be honest. But you are the hero. Thank you very much. It's been fun to chat with you. Absolutely. I hope to talk to you again in the future about a different topic maybe. Yes. Something much more fun. A little more lively, right? Yes. Yes. I'm for that. Well, thank you very much. Okay. Thanks, Glenn. You bet. Well, that was a good first run. That was pretty good. I thought so. I thought so. It went great.