Ailish and Michael interview

This is the fifth episode of the educational series "Give Me About the Meals On" discussing topics like plagiarism and academic integrity. The guests for this episode are librarians Eilish Larkin and Michal Ohej. They talk about the importance of referencing in academic writing and how it is a new skill for many students. They also discuss common questions students have about referencing and emphasize the use of the UL-specific guide for Harvard referencing. They explain that referencing should be practiced and used as a tool in the writing process. Hello, everybody, and welcome to the fifth episode of Give Me About the Meals On, a bite-sized educational series created by the Academic Integrity Unit, EUL, that explores various topics including plagiarism, GNI, contract cheating, and much more. Today, we have invited Eilish Larkin and Michal Ohej to talk about sizing and referencing. Hi, Eilish and hi, Michal. Hi, Sabina. So Eilish is a librarian, and she works in the Learning and Engagement section of the Luxembourg Library, focusing specifically on students' engagement and success. Michal is a librarian as well in the Learning and Engagement section, and he works specifically on science and engineering in the Science and Engineering section. So the title of our conversation today is Sizing It Right, the Backbone of Scholarly Integrity. So let's start with the basics, I would say, so with the new students and the changes and the challenges that new students face when it comes to academic writing and academic integrity. Okay. Thanks, Elvia. So yeah, of course, when a new student arrives at the university, it's a whole new world in terms of their learning and expectations. So I know for me, anyway, referencing was a completely new thing. I had never done any of it at second level, so I think that is changing somewhat nowadays. I think with like religion and history and different projects, students may have some experience with referencing, but I still think there will probably be a lot of students like me who have no knowledge, no experience of it. So now starting at university, this is what's expected of you, and it's a vital part of academic writing. And also, I think the importance of referencing is that it ties into kind of a new way of learning. So for the most part, at second level, there is one textbook, there is kind of one truth or one answer to whatever it is, and then you start a university and you're expected to use multiple sources. And it's this idea that there isn't kind of one thing to learn off, but rather there are ideas and debates to be discussed, or ideas and theories to be discussed and debated. So a student now is joining this community of scholars, and you want them to start straight away into their research or developing their research skills. So referencing is really, really key if a student is engaging with multiple sources of information, which is what we want them to do, that they then acknowledge them. Because it's this idea of, you know, you don't come up with these ideas, you didn't come up with these out of your head, somebody else did, so you're acknowledging who that person is. Yeah, absolutely. And can I ask you actually also, what kind of questions students ask you about citing and referencing? So both first-year students, but also students in their third, fourth, fourth year. Typical questions, is it? Yeah. Well, often people will come up and just say to the information desk or to a particular librarian such as myself and just say, can you have a look over my references to see, you know, do they look logical? Are they in line with best practice? In UL, we obviously follow the Harvard style. Ninety-five percent of students across all disciplines and schools follow the Harvard style, and we have a very good guide there called Cited Right, available for free on the internet for download or for, you can print it off in your own time, et cetera. And really, that's the kind of Bible that you should go back to each time you want to... Nobody really does enough referencing regularly enough to be an expert on it, even in academics. So you have to go back and have a look at it and the basics of how to reference a book, how to reference a website, how to reference a journal, whether in print or online. They're the three main aspects of referencing. Some people can get a little bit maybe overwhelmed by they want to know how to reference every single sort of media item, piece of paper, a lecture note, a USB key, et cetera. You don't need to know all those things. You know, the guide is there. It shows how to reference every aspect of your scholarly experience, and it's called a guide because it's there to be referred to every time you are finishing, whether it's a five-page essay, a master's, or a 150-page PhD. It's the same logic and the same structure. So it's a good idea then to actually just learn the referencing from day one. You know, build it in. It's a part of your whole student experience, really, academic experience. And so therefore, keep an eye out on the events calendar on UL Clickspan Library. You'll see pretty much from the start of term, you'll see seminars and sort of classes being advertised by experts on how to use EndNote to the best effect. EndNote is a reference software, which can make your life a lot easier for as long as you're a UL student. And also, just the basics of referencing, how to reference a web page, how to reference a book, how to reference a journal article. The other thing as well is we're very friendly in the library and very approachable. So rather than never worry about these things, always just go up and ask somebody for help. You know, that's why we're here. So, yeah, typical questions. Yeah. You've had a jump to support there. Are you going to end it? Oh, yeah. We have to go back to some questions. Oh, great. Well, we can always end it, can't we? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's very silly. But you go back to typical questions. I think a typical question that I would be asked frequently, well, there's a few. So one is, will a lecturer care about referencing? So I think it's fair to say that yes, all lecturers will care about referencing. Some will set the percentage that's dedicated to referencing. Some will set it higher than others. So it could be 5%, it could be 7%. But I would argue that, well, your work deserves this attention to detail. You want to present it in the best way. So spending time referencing is really key. And some lecturers will, you know, really, you know, it could easily be the difference between a grade, yeah, an A and a B. So spend that time on it. And Nihal mentioned that most students use the Harvard style here at UL, but it's the Harvard UL style. So there, Harvard is used all over the world. But every institution will have slight variations. Like there's different accents around the country of Ireland. So UCD will have their own Harvard referencing guide. Galway has their own. So the one you want to use, like Nihal said, the Bible here at UL, in terms of Harvard referencing, is the site of right guide. So that's really important. So students would ask me sometimes, is the Harvard referencing tool in Word okay to use? And I would say, yeah, if you're using a certain site, this for me software, it won't be the exact same. And all of these things, like things in capital letters and colons, they all matter. So you just want to use the UL specific guide. But like Nihal said, I think it's really important. And I always say to students, you don't have to learn any of this off by heart. You're going to have to learn lots of other things off by heart. This is not one of them. So it's really when you need it. Like Nihal said, you don't need to learn all these things off by heart. But when you want to reference at TED Talk, then you go and find that. And the guide is really comprehensive. We're really lucky. I think UL is the best referencing guide there is. So you just learn. Just go and use it when needed. I think that's really important. It's very easy as well to use the guide, to approach the guide. And it is a matter of practice. So you start using it and then it comes natural to you after a while. But like I've been teaching referencing for about 13 years. I would still always open up the guide. Even though I'm probably 99% sure I have it right. But just to go and check. And is it a capital letter or is there a full stopper or comma? Just check it and then you can be guaranteed that it is right. Another question I would get regularly is, especially at the beginning when students are just getting used to referencing, where they wonder, will they not have to reference at the end of every sentence? Yes. Which is totally understandable. And I know I felt the same. But you see, I suppose, it comes with practice. So if you have a direct quote, then you absolutely have to put in a citation. You have to reference straight away. But otherwise, typically in a paragraph, you should be discussing one point. So when you write a few sentences about that point, then a reference will come in then. And again, throughout your paragraph. So there's no hard and fast rule at all. But you should never have a paragraph without a reference. You want the point backed up. But you'll see it's kind of hard to explain really. But the more writing you do, you realise, no, you don't. So you definitely don't need a reference at the end of every single sentence. And academic writing really is about building on the work of other people and interpreting it and exploring it from your own perspective. So it's important to build the referencing in, just as part of your overall writing. As part of your specific time allotted to it. In the same way as people maybe incorporate other tools, such as the thesaurus on there, to use describing words or whatever, explore outline, delineate, discuss, etc. And in the same way as people often send their essay or their project to a friend maybe in another university, just to look over, to get a second pair of eyes. It's a good idea just to have referencing as just another tool, as part of your best practice while you're writing. It is part of the writing process. It's true of the academic writing. Having the size, reflecting what other scholars have. And if there's 10% going for the referencing, out of a total of 100 or whatever, why not get as close as 10%? Absolutely. I really like that point you made, Michal. Referencing isn't sexy and it isn't cool, for sure. But why I really like it, well, A, because I remember not having a clue how to do it and needing support, so I like helping students with it. It's just that idea of building on the research and expertise of the past. That's the whole point that you're... You're not reinventing the wheel. You are. And it's so exciting. You get to explore all of these thinkers and as well, show off to your lecturer. Impress them. It takes loads of time to get high-quality, relevant resources. So if you've gone and spent that time, you're not using a few links to mediocre websites, you've gone and got sections from books or journal articles and you've spent that time, show it off. Let them know that. Exactly. The first thing I always look at is the reference list. Because it's like cooking. If you've got good ingredients, like Italian cooking, if you've got good ingredients, it doesn't take a whole lot, a bit of gorgeous olive oil over it, and you're cracking. If you've got not great ingredients, if you've got super noodles, there's not a whole lot you can do with it. So show it off. Be proud of the work that you've done. And also show that you're engaged with the topic and that you enjoyed the subject, which at the end of the day, the lecturers or tutors, they want to know that you gained from their course, that you recommended it to other people, that you enjoyed it. And by referencing both established sources and maybe newer sources that you come across while you're studying, that demonstrates that. Yeah. And also the confidence in your writing, I suppose, Rose, because it's such a challenging process. So having that structure supporting you, it's comforting in a way. Yeah. And speaking about support, so Michal mentioned some of them, you're more than likely going to need support, I'd say definitely going to need support with this. Anybody starting at university or maybe coming back to university after a while. So the library guide, the lib guide on the library's website, Cite It Right, is the best place to start. Basically any question you have for referencing will be answered there, yeah. And that's where you'll find the guide as well. But we also run workshops throughout the academic year, so I send out an email on Monday morning, it'll be the highlight of your week. And I list the workshops that are happening that week, and there will always be a referencing workshop, usually one online and one in person, and on complete beginners from the no prior knowledge needed. And then you can also on the events calendar that you mentioned as well, all the workshops are there. And then you can always contact the library. So email libinfo at ul.ie or just the Ask Us feature as well on the library's website. Just don't ever be stuck. I love not too complicated referencing queries. I love it. They might as well come to me or one of the team, and we're only too happy to help. So that's really, really important. The library's here to support you with this. And you're so very much approachable and easy to talk to. So any questions can be discussed with you very easily. And we're going to put all the resources Ailish and Michal that have mentioned in the description of this episode. So you have the email address, you have the LibGuide hyperlink, all the resources will be available there. Yes. So I would say that thank you. Thank you for joining us for this fifth episode of our Give Me About 10 Minutes On. I would like to thank you very much Ailish and Michal for the very interesting conversation we were discussing even before the podcast today, and for all the information, all the wisdom, all the experience that you have shared. Thank you so very much. And thank you all from the Academic Integrity Unit. And our next episode is going to be in two weeks time, so see you then.