Mark Sowersby on Faith Moving Forward Podcast

The episode is sponsored by The Russell, a boutique hotel that supports local organizations helping the homeless. The guest is Mark Sowersby, who shares his story of healing and forgiveness after suffering abuse as a child. Mark's abuser was never held accountable due to the cultural norms of that time. Mark's mother was aware of the abuse but was unable to protect him. Mark endured years of abuse before finding the courage to fight back and seek help. The abuse ended at 14, but the scars and pain continued for years afterward. Mark's education also suffered as a result of the abuse. Today's episode is brought to you from The Russell, a historic East Nashville church transformed into a one-of-a-kind boutique hotel. The Russell's mission is to give back to the Nashville community through their Rooms for Rooms program by donating a portion of your stay to local organizations who provide a safe haven to those experiencing homelessness in the Nashville community. Visit www.RussellNashville.com to book your stay today. Hello, my name is Kevin, and I'm with my co-host Beth, and you are listening to the Faith Moving Forward podcast. How do you forgive when you have been wounded deeply? How do you move past the pain that keeps you up at night, leaves you isolated, untrusting, and afraid? Well, today we are honored to bring you Mark Sowersby, a gifted speaker, writer, and pastor. Mark's journey is one of amazing transformation. After years of suffering abuse during his childhood, Mark found healing in Jesus that changed his life forever. Condemnation, shame, and guilt gave way to forgiveness, joy, and abundant life as Mark began recognizing what God had already done for him. Through his ministry and book, Forgiving the Nightmare, Mark shares his powerful testimony of healing, forgiveness, and freedom. Get ready to be inspired by his story of hope and restoration. Welcome, Mark. Hi, guys. It's such an honor to be with you. It's such a blessing to be with you. Thank you so much. Yeah, we're excited. Welcome. Mark, going back to your childhood, can you give us a glimpse of what life was like growing up? You know, we're going to go back a little bit. You know, I'm on the other side of 50 now, and I don't feel that old, but my kids tell me I am all the time. They can relate. So, I'm going to go back a little bit, and I'm going to say that time was different. So, these things that I'm going to talk about looked different, and it was still evil, it was still wrong, but the way culture, the way families dealt with these things. So, you know, I was born from an affair. My mother was lost in her own pain. The first line of my book is that everybody's story starts with someone else's story. So, my mom had an affair with a man that promised her the world, but left her with hurt and pain, and I was a product of that. She loved me the best she could, but she carried so much wound, so much pain because of the rejections and fears that she had, and because of that, she met a man that was 20 years her younger, and she would come into the home. She would bring him into the home when I was about six years old, and he would come into the home. They got married, and for a year, he would groom me. Now, we didn't know that word then, at least I didn't know that word then, but that's what he did. He groomed me. He was brainwashing me. He was bringing me to a place of trust. He was bringing me to a place of control, a place of, I was innocent, I didn't know which way was up. I was six years old, and then, when I turned seven years old, he began to abuse me. He abused me in every way, shape, and form. He sold my body to other men. He prostituted me. He would beat me. He would stab me. He would burn me, and he would sexually molest me, and I'll never forget the first night. I can remember the crackle of the threshold, and the weight of his body, the smell of his breath, and he stole my innocence. As ugly as that is, and I don't want to be light about that, that's an ugly, ugly thing, but what was even more damaging, I think, or equally damaging, is that when he was done, he blames me. You know, at six years old, seven years old, I didn't understand that, and he blamed me. Mark, it's your fault. You can't tell him. That's what abusers do. That's what happens when you're being controlled. So, for the next seven years of my life, this was always a part of my life. It was the atmosphere that I lived in. It was the oxygen that was around me. I would come home. I'd be abused. You know, we would lie. He taught me to lie. You know, I fell down the stairs. I fell off my bike. I fell off the slide, and then at 14 years old, something happened inside me. I don't know why it didn't happen when I was 10. I didn't know why it didn't happen when I was 11, but it happened when I was 14, and I fought back, and it wasn't a Rocky Balboa moment or a Mike Tyson moment, but I pushed my attacker off me, and I also ran to a loved one in the family, and they believed me, and they had the power. They had the authority, and they were able to save me and rescue me. There's power in belief. So, when this person, this adult in our family, I ran to it, I said these things. I said, hey, here's what's happening. They were able to rescue me out there. So, at 14 years old, the abuse was over, and I was never physically abused again, but I wish I could say that's the end of the story, and everything was perfect after that. No, that was just really the beginning of dealing with my nightmare. Wow. So, when you were 14 and went to that relative, did your attacker or abuser get in any kind of trouble for that, or did he just get away scot-free? Well, pretty much scot-free, and I think that's a sign of what culture was like back then. You know, I'll go back to what my mother's generation was. My mother's generation, she came from a time that if you didn't talk about it, it didn't happen. She came from a time where you kept your dirty laundry at home. And, you know, of course, we don't want to be people who share everything all the time, but there's times when we need to share. There's times when we need to go outside the home and find help. There's times when abuses are taking place, and we need to find hope and strength outside the home, but my mom's generation didn't handle it like that. And she really said, you know, let's ignore it. Let's talk about it. And he said he'd never do it again. So, he never got in trouble with law enforcement. He never got put to jail. He never, but there was a taint. There was a, you know, there was a ugliness all the time about the situation, but not trouble like today. Today, there's authorities to be involved. People can be arrested and prosecuted, and it wasn't like that. And I would probably argue there was many people in that generation that kind of, if you would, got away with it because of how culture and society looked at it in those days. Did your mom, was she aware when you were six and seven what was going on until 14? You know, my mom, when I was about 10, I went to my mom and I explained to her what was happening. And, you know, because of her own pain, and I'm not excusing, I'm just explaining, because of her own neglect, because of her own pain, because of her own insecurities and fears. And I can only imagine now as an adult, she was probably being abused in her own sense. I didn't realize that then, but now when I look back, because that's what abusers do. So, she just didn't have the capabilities and know-how to be able to save me. And I know it's easy to say, what are you talking about? You know, if that happened to my kid, my mom just didn't have that ability to do it. So, she brought him in the room and she probably, you know, she confronted him with my abuse and he promised he'd never do it again. Well, the next morning I got the biggest beating of my life and he broke my teeth that day. So, I realized again I had to go back inside myself. And, you know, and I tell people those years I wasn't being raised, I was surviving. You know, I wasn't being nurtured, I was just learning to, you know, I didn't learn how to read, I learned how to duck. You know, I learned how to, and that's what you do to get through trauma. You kind of have to say, what do I have to do to survive? And, again, here I am a child. I'm reasoning like a child. And I'm just trying to get through each day. And, again, he sold me to other men. You know, he brought me out and put me in a van and, you know, other men would come and take their, take advantage of me. And there's drugs and alcohol and it was just a real seedy and ugly and dysfunctional situation. And at 14, again, two things with me are cutting my attacker off, pushing him off, and running to a loved one. The abuse ended. But there was the scars and the insecurities and the fears and the anger and all the pain that I carried for another 30 years after the abuse. Wow. Wow. Were you in school all the while? I was in school. I wasn't, well, I was a special ed student because of my education. Because of what was happening at home, my education suffered. And, you know, they put me on the IEP plan. I think that's what it's called. You know, in my days we called it the kids on the small bus. I was the kid on the small bus. You know, that's what we called it. Yeah. And, you know, I was in special programs. Yeah. And I think that society and culture just didn't kind of, you know, I think they kind of said, hey, what happens at home stays at home. And I'm not blaming anybody. I'm sure if I had the power to cry out, people would have helped me. I just didn't have the power at that time. And I think people in that time, we're going, remember, this is, you know, early 80s, late 70s. Yeah. Right. And I think culture kind of looked at it differently. Right. And so there wasn't, today we're thankful, right? Today we have awareness. We have advocacy. We have support. People look for triggers. They look for signs of victims. We have a phone everywhere. Right? We have a phone everywhere at everybody's house. There's a camera. So there's always support. You know, you can go online, you can type in, I need help, and you'll probably find the help or a resource for that help. But these days it wasn't like that. You know, when they say I'm Generation X, you know, and we're the last one without cell phones. You know, we're the first one without cell phones or something like that. Yeah. Right. So we didn't have that. You know, so it was just a different time. And I'm not excusing it. I'm just explaining why that took place. So that was 14 when things changed. Yes. And was it soon after that that you were introduced to Jesus or he between you and your wife? Yeah. So what happened was at 14 the abuse ended, and, of course, there was confusion with something that came out to the family. Now the family was angry. You know, my family was splitting up, and my uncles were mad at my mom, and my mom was shameful. And, you know, it was just my brother and sister who were older than me, and they were kind of trying to find their way out of the house because of this dysfunction. And, you know, in a lot of ways I thought that was my fault. Now obviously it wasn't my fault. It was the abuser's fault. But as a victim I felt like, boy, I split this up. I broke it up. Now I was already breaking up. I just didn't realize that then. So what did I do? So I just wanted to be outside the house all the time. I was that kid that was always eating over somebody else's house. I was always staying too late, you know. And we lived in an apartment complex at the time, and I always, when I wasn't at somebody's house, I was at the pool. You know, there was a courtyard with a pool in it. And I was always at the pool because, hey, why not, right? There was a pool. And I was about, I don't know, 15 at this time, 15, 16. It was the summer of 15, 16. And the lifeguard, she invited me to church. And let's be honest, she was a 17-year-old girl, and I would have went anywhere if she invited me to go. And she invited me to church, and I went to a church that I'd never experienced before. You know, it was charismatic. It was the 80s, so the youth pastor had a mullet. I mean, of course, right? And he had his guitar and his drums. And I'd never experienced this before. And, you know, they preached about Jesus. It wasn't just a religion. It wasn't just a church building. It was Jesus who loved me. And I heard that message for the first time. I rejected it the first time. Everybody told me to throw away my music and cut my hair. I thought, I can't do this. And long story short here, the youth pastor lived in the apartment complex. And he and his wife would see me and bring me to church. And a couple days later, there's a mountain in our area called Mt. Monadnock. And if you're a New Englander, you know, you're from where we say Pakika and Hobbit. Yeah, you know, I have a daughter and things like that. It's kind of a rite of passage that every group goes to this mountain. It's in New Hampshire. It's called Mt. Monadnock. And they hike it. And the youth group was going there on a Saturday morning. And I'll never forget, we lived on the third floor of the apartment. And it felt like 100 cars were in front of our balcony. It was probably only two or three, but it felt like 100 cars. And they called me down. And I didn't have the equipment. I didn't have the money. I didn't have the shirt. I didn't have the jacket. I didn't have the shoes. But you know what? They provided for me. They bought me lunch. They made sure I had a jacket. And we went and hiked that mountain. On the way home from that trip, one of the young men, you know, he was cool because he had a car and he was 17. And I wasn't. I didn't have a car. I was only 15 or 16. He asked me if I wanted Jesus Christ my Lord and Savior. And he led me in what I would come to know as a sinner's prayer. And I tell people, even though I probably didn't know the depth of the prayer that I was praying that day, God did. And God was faithful to me. And so Jesus became my Savior that summer at 15, 16 years old. And, again, I wish I could say that's the end of the story and everything was eventually only the beginning of the end of the nightmare. Sure. So at this point, where were you? You were living in this apartment complex with who? With my mom. Okay. And her husband. But it was frosty, as you can imagine, or dysfunctional, as you can imagine. My brother and sister by this time have already left. They were older than me, quite a bit older than me. So they were outside the house. So it was just an ugly and difficult time in those years. But I found the church. What I've got to say is I became a fixture at the church. You know, in a sense, the church truly became my sanctuary. And I don't mean that just in the holy sense. I mean that in the protection sense, like a bird sanctuary. You know, the church, I think I went to everything that was going on in the church. You know, I was there at the senior prayer meeting at 530 a.m. and I stayed until the youth night. I think I even went to some mops meetings. You know, mothers at preschool. I mean, the doors were open. I was there because it was a safe place. Beautiful. You know, I wasn't probably growing the best Christian life at the time. When I was a kid, I didn't know which way was up. But you had the pastors, and it was kind. And it wasn't a perfect place. I'll tell you, you know, I've never met a perfect person in church. I just meet forgiven people in church. That's what I meet. But I met Jesus, and he's perfect. But other than that, that's it. But the church really, you know, the pastors were kind, and they were loving, and they really just let me kind of be and grow in Christ and in my faith. Yeah. So I imagine that's when the healing really started to begin, I suppose. Yeah, that's right. Was there a particular figure at the church who was instrumental in that, or was it just the church as a whole? Well, the church as a whole, I tell people this, that some of the people who loved me the most probably gave me some of the worst advice. And not because they were evil or they were, you know, waxing their mustache or trying to cast something bad upon me. I think they just tried to help, but they didn't know what to say. So at this time, here I am. I'm a Christian. I'm a dyslexic. I'm a special ed student. I'm confused. I'm angry. I'm sad. I'm just surviving. And the Lord starts speaking to my heart, and I didn't know what that sounded like or looked like. I was trying to read the Word, but being a dyslexic, I didn't know how to read it well. So what happened was, kind of in my prayer life, God spoke to my heart. And again, that's a journey in that. But God asked me to trust Him. And I said, Lord, you know, when you've gone through a trauma, no matter what somebody's trauma is, and we're talking about my trauma of abuse, but everybody listening today, we all have a trauma. We all have a nightmare. We all have something the enemy has tried to use against us. And here I was, and the Lord asked me to trust Him. And I'll tell you, the first casualty, not the only casualty, but the first casualty to trauma is the lack of trust. You're not going to trust anybody, anything. I'm going to trust you as far as I can throw you. I'll trust a dog more than I can trust people. And that's because we've been hurt and we've been wounded. And I was at that place. I didn't trust. I didn't know how to trust. I knew I was safe, but I didn't know how to trust because I was always in this state of protection, trying to figure out what do I have to do to get through. What do I have to do not to get hit, not to get abused, not to get hurt? So I was still living in that state, and the Lord asked me to trust Him. And I didn't know how to do it. And literally somebody came to me and said, if you have the faith of a mustard seed, you can move a mountain. And as a good Christian, I said to myself, what does that mean? It must feel like the Lord said to me this. He said, Mark, can you move a pebble? I said, Lord, I'll be the best pebble mover you ever had. I'll move pebbles all day long. And, you know, metaphorically, of course, that pebble became a rock, and the rock became a stone, and the stone became a boulder, and the boulder became a mound, and the mound became a hill. And eventually, eventually, through life, up and down, victories and sorrows, tears and tears, and prayer life, and, you know, walking one step forward and two steps back and throwing in the towel and praying to come home, eventually God would bring me to the foot of the mountain where he would ask me to forgive my abuser. And this was 30 years after I accepted the Lord. And I said, Lord, I don't know if I want to. I don't know if I can. I don't know. And he said, well, Mark, how'd you move the pebble? And I said, Lord, you helped me. And how'd you move the stone and the boulder and the mound? And I said, every step, Lord, you helped me. And he said, if you trust me, I'll help you move this mountain. So what happened is my perspective changed. You know, I was so full of anger, sorrow, pain, so confused. And in those 30 years of victory and failures and good days and sad days and mess-ups and mess-ups, let me say that again, a lot of mess-ups, you know, I learned to get a new perspective. I learned to look to Christ more than I let the pain of my past own me. You know, I learned to cast my eyes upon the Lord more than I let the past direct me. I didn't want the worst part of my life to be the sum of my life. I wanted the victory in Jesus. And, you know, and I'll tell people, it's not an easy journey. You know, my miracle of forgiveness did not come in a twinkle of an eye. My miracle of forgiveness did not happen in just a, you know, I went to church, threw two bucks on the plate, went to the altar and said a prayer. I wish it came that way. It didn't. My miracle came through, I think, as many people's miracles come, through the valley. You know, as David said, I walked through the valley of death and I shall fear no evil because thou art with me. And I think that sometimes we've got to walk through some valleys. And in the valley, it hurts. You feel alone. You feel abandoned. You're like, where are you, God? But in that place, you realize he's always with us. And there I found the victory. So I want to be really honest about my story. And I don't want it to be, hey, I went to church, said a prayer, bought the book, and everything was perfect. No, this was a journey of, I call it a Jacob journey because I really had to wrestle with God. Okay, so I have a question. So paint a picture for me. During this, where was your stepdad, I guess, in relation to you? Was he the gentleman, the husband, living with your mom, and you in the apartment? And how long were you around him? Or was he right in front of your face? Or was he now in a different town? So, yeah, it was my mother's husband. Yeah, he was in the home. What happened about probably about a year after the abuse ended, he contracted, I guess, I guess that's how you would say it, an illness. And he got a really bad illness that attacked his body. So he slowly but progressively started to lose all his faculty. Oh, wow. So he was bedridden. So about a year and a half after the abuse, he could no longer walk, and then he needed a wheelchair, and then he had no arm strength, and eventually he would end up in a rehab. So he was in the home, and his mouth worked perfectly. I'll tell you that. He was not abused or abused, and his tongue was still speaking the language that he always spoke. But his physical attributes were no longer able. He needed help with everything. So about a year after, so I guess it ended about, you know, I was 14 when it ended. So probably around that same summer when I was accepting Jesus Christ, is when his diagnosis came with this illness that would take his faculty, eventually taking place. Really? Okay. Wow. But he was still very cutting with his mouth? He was still very cutting. Anytime I saw him or spoke to him. So because of his limitations, it was easy for me to avoid and not be around. It was easy for me to stay away because of that physical illness that he contracted. Well, that's very understandable because every time you come around him, all he would do is tear you down. That's right. That's right. Understandable. He probably helped get you away so you could get a new beginning here. That's right. Through the men at the church, God brought along these godly men, the pastors, the youth pastor, to help rewrite a God figure, a male figure in your life. Is that right? Yes. Yes. What brought many, you know, I was one of those guys adopting many father-like figures. And I thank God we had a church that had a strong male presence. You know, we had a religious men's group, and they adopted me. I tell people they gave me a good hug and a swift kick when I needed it. And I did. I did. I didn't think I needed those kicks back then. I just wanted the hugs. But I thank God for the men that invested in me and spent time in giving me those hugs and giving me those corrections when I needed it because I'm a better man today. Now, the 19-year-old in me did not like it, but the 50-plus is appreciative of it. You look back and you're very grateful now. Yeah. Back then I didn't think it, but now I do. Yeah, I bet. Wow. Yeah, it's one thing, you know, talking about forgiveness, to forgive someone, but then you have to continually walk in that forgiveness. That had to have been a major challenge, especially since he's still around. Yeah, maybe you want to forgive him, and maybe you have, but you still have to be around him, and he's still cutting you down verbally and everything. So how do you walk in that forgiveness? Well, sure, and that's a great question. Yeah, that's a great question. I thank you for asking me that. And, you know, again, I just don't want to give the impression that it was always a box of cherries here. There was moments where it was ugly and it was hard, and all I had was faith, and the flesh rised up. So what would happen is that, you know, I started to read about forgiveness, and I came across this book that really spoke to my heart, and there was a little phrase, I think I actually found online, and it really explained three things. I actually quote it in my book, To Give Him a Nightmare. It was three things that really spoke to me. First of all, forgiveness is not approval, right? So when we forgive somebody, we're not approving of their action, their sin, their offense. The two are not the same. You can forgive somebody and still say what you've done is wrong, evil, bad. There's going to be a consequence. God will hear that. So that really helped me out because I think there's a part of me going, I don't want to let them off the hook. You know, I'm not a fool. I'm not a, you know, what they did was bad. And so for me to forgive is because God's so good to me, and that perspective of changing my anger to hope in Christ, saying, God, I'm putting it in your hands. Now I'm not approving. I'm not supporting. I'm not, you know, I'm not saying what happened was right, was wrong, was evil. But God is a God who will not be mocked, and justice is his, and, you know, he will take care of it. So that was the first thing I learned, that forgiveness is not approval. The second thing I learned is that forgiveness is not a one-time event, right? Like, you know, you go through these moments, and the feelings and the triggers and the sounds and the smells and the past rise up, and in that moment, it just wants to drag you back to the place of insecurity and fear, and that anger rises up with it, and that shame rises up in it, and you say, you know what, Lord? I stand on the rock, and I have confessed. I don't feel it. I maybe don't even want it, but by your blood, by the cross of Calvary, I'm standing on your word, and you've helped me forgive those who trespassed against me. So, you know, I'll never forget when my son came into the world. You know, over 19 years ago now, he came into the world, and, you know, he was put into my arms, and my wife gave birth in the usual way, and ten fingers and ten toes were happy. And as I hold this baby, and I can't believe I'm somebody's dad, and, you know, right then the enemy just starts lying to me. No one ever loved you this much. No one ever took care of you this much. No one ever sacrificed. But that's what I remembered. You know, Lord, I forgave, and I'm not going to let the hurt of the past steal the joy of this moment. That's the two things I learned. The third thing I learned is that we can have our boundaries. You know, just because I forgave now doesn't mean that I've got to go stick my head back in the lion's mouth. You know, we can have our boundaries. And boundaries doesn't mean I hate you. Boundaries doesn't mean that, you know, I think you're evil. Boundaries is just like the me in my house. So I think those three things really helped me to say, okay, if that's what forgiveness is, then I can do that. I can forgive and still say it's wrong. I can forgive and have my boundaries. And I can forgive daily when I need to because Christ's blood is good enough. So those three things really helped me grasp the first steps to forgiveness. That's so good. Oh, my word. That really helps explain for that people when they have something so grievous that took place to them, because it is a lot of times you think, well, if I forgive them, then they think they're set free. And, oh, that is such a good way that God walked you through. It's very clear in that explanation that God really took you step by step by step, because I'm sure it would continually try and come up in your face here and there. Oh, sure. Like what a beautiful moment holding that newborn son. And then who would ever guess a thought like that would cross your mind? Knowing how Satan works, it's not too surprising. So, yeah, that's amazing. So when did you start feeling like you were going to write a book about this or feeling like maybe you were called to do that? Well, that's a great story. So here I am. I'm in my early 20s. I'm still a poor student. One of the biggest scars of my past is my academics. I'm a dyslexic, so I always had that. I was insecure because I was abused, and the Lord told me to go to Bible school. I said, Lord, maybe not me. God opened up so many doors. We could sit here for hours. I could tell you the miracle after miracle. Well, I ended up at a school, and it was a different time. It was the 90s, and it was kind of a holiness school where they had rules. Men had a dress code. Girls had a dress code. And I didn't want to go. I did not want to go to this school because of that holiness expression. You know, hey, I was a little bit older at this time. I think I was in my mid-20s, so I was a grown-up. You know, I'm not going with these kids. But the Lord called me there, and I went. And there I had to learn some discipline. I came from this crazy background, and there I had to learn discipline. Well, one of the things the school used to do to save money is they had a program called SPICE, Students Participating in Campus Experience. But if you got picked for a ministry team or a ministry job or duty, then your SPICE hours were less. So I went out for the drama team. I went out for the team that would represent the school, that promote the school, to go around and say, hey, come to our school. Well, they invited me to go on, and I thought, well, is that because I'm such a comedic person? They said, no, you're old enough to drive the van. That's why we want young people. It wasn't for my thing. So I joined the team, and one night we went on tour for the summer, and we were traveling throughout the Northeast. And we were in Toronto, Canada. And by this time, we were already on tour for about six weeks. So, you know, you love the people, but you get tired of them. You know, I want to go home. And they asked me as the driver, they said, Mark, can you close the service tonight with a testimony? And by this time, we knew the skits. We knew the pitch, if you would. We knew it very well. And I did. I closed it, but no one knew my testimony back then. And I really wasn't talking about forgiving my abuser. I was talking about how I forgave my mom at this point. And I remember it was a big church in Toronto, Canada, and I got up and I spoke. And when they turned the lights on, everybody was crying. And because of my trauma, I thought I did something wrong. And in our faith tradition, you know, we go to the altar. We pray for one another. We lay hands on each other. We agree in prayer. So we were doing that. And a whole team of about nine students and our director and leader, we were down and we opened up the altars. And I looked to the left and the right, and I realized that there's hardly anybody praying with my team members. And I thought, well, maybe I didn't speak well enough. Maybe I wasn't clear enough. And I looked to the people in front of me, and I couldn't see the end of the line of people who wanted to pray with me. My knees got weak. My palms got sweaty. I said, Lord, they picked the wrong guy. You're all a mess, God. What am I doing here praying for these people? And at that moment, the Lord spoke to my heart. And I was 23, 24 years old, right, my early 20s. And he said, Mark, you have powerful testimony. And if you give it to me, I'll do great things with it. And I said, Lord, it's always yours. I'll do anything you ask. And he said, write it down. I want you to write a book. And I started to literally laugh because I thought, Lord, maybe you've forgotten I'm dyslexic. I'm here on academic trial. I have an aide every day. I take my quizzes and tests at the academic dean. And, Lord, maybe you forgot that I am not. I'm struggling to get C's here. And I said, well, Lord, if it's really you, of course, that's what we say, right? Lord, if it's really you. Got to put that fleece out there. Yeah, that's right. I said, Lord, what do you want me to call it? And he spoke to my heart at 23, 24 years old. And he said, Mark, you'll call your ministry and your book Forgiving the Nightmare. And I was such a good Christian that I didn't write it until I was 49 years old. Because I had to walk through it. I had to experience it. It was only a part of me. I had that vision, if you would. I had that taste of it. And when I look back, I realize how much that led my life as a pastor. I pastored churches that were kind of broken and hurting. I've always found myself around hurting and broken people because I am one. But I kept saying, Lord, when is this going to happen? And right around 2020, my mom passed. And, of course, that brought up many, many feelings. And not short after, the abuser would pass. And all these feelings would come up to the surface, all these emotions. Lord, I buried it down. Lord, I gave it to you. And there, I was a little bit older, a few more gray hairs. In the middle of COVID, I just began to write. And, you know, I'm not a writer. I'm not somebody who understands the discipline of writing. But it just kind of poured out of me like water from a cup. It just kind of poured out of me. But my wife, who graduated from Southeast University with more colors around her neck and more Latin names that I could pronounce, she could take my writing and turn it into a manuscript. She took all. And she said, Okay, let me have it. We've got to put a period here. We've got to put a comma and a capital S. We sent it to a publisher, and I thought they'd say no. And next thing you know, they said, Let me help you write a book. And long story short, about six months after we published the book, if that, the 700 Club called me up. CTN called me up. Mark Patterson, the author of The Circle Maker, he and I spoke, and I kept saying, Mark, I don't know what I'm doing. I just want to lift you up, God. And he said, Just keep giving it to me. Keep giving it to me. Right. Oh, my goodness. I have a feeling you're just on the tip of the iceberg, Pastor Mark. I think this title is such a God title. It sounds like it compels questions. It tugs at your heart. And it makes everybody go, Okay, I've got to hear this. It just lets me know God is going to use this book, your testimony, and I think you're just on the tip of it because there's so many, not just in the U.S., a lot in the U.S. but around the world, that after all that we just went through. Talk about, I always think of a pot of gold and how the fire's been turned up and with COVID. Talk about dross coming to the surface and all the things people buried, buried, buried, I can't tell anybody that. It's all coming up. And, boy, are people hungering for truth. And your testimony brings to light the ugly that everybody's trying to hide. And you're bringing the truth and the light and the love of Jesus. Thank you. Oh, my. May the Lord be glorified. And that's my cry. That's my prayer. That this story, my testimony, which is really not my story. It's God's story through me. You know, it's just God's leading me. And I just never wanted to be anything other than to lift up the name of Jesus. You know, I wanted to be real. I don't want to ever lie to people and say, oh, you know, hey, I went to the church. I said a prayer and everything was easy. There were days where it was very difficult, days where I thought, God, where are you? And if you've never been through trauma, in the middle of that trauma, I ask God all the hard questions. Where were you? If you're such a good-loving God, then why? You know, if you love everybody, then why did this? Of course I went through all that. I have a mind. You know, I reason. I'm a person of flesh. God, why didn't you stop it? Why did this? You know, so I went through those seasons. I went through the seasons that, you know, where were you? But, you know, God was good to me. And I just want to share with so many people that whatever their trauma is, whatever their nightmare is, God wants us to have freedom. And I really believe the only way we can give freedom is by forgiveness. And people say, well, why should I forgive? Well, we forgive because Christ forgave us. And then Christ calls us to forgive. You know, he tells us if we can't forgive other people, how can he forgive us? And how do we handle that scripture and the depth of trauma? I mean, I'm not just talking about somebody who cut you off on the highway or somebody who owes you two bucks. We're talking about those who have done damage to psyches, damage to generations. And yet God still tells us to forgive. And how do we do that? And I hope in my little way, by sharing my testimony, I tackle that question and say there's hope in Christ. It's letting God become bigger and letting the pain become less, you know, and letting the pain become not as big. You know, I always wish the pain would go away. What happened was God became bigger than the pain. So, you know, do I remember it? Do I understand it? Of course. Do I associate it? Sure. I didn't forget it. Believe me. But it's not who I am. You know, my identity is not Mark, this kid who grew up child abused. But my identity is now Mark, a servant saved by grace that loves Jesus Christ. And that's what I want my identity to be. Believe me, I got a foot that fits perfectly in my mouth. That's my wife. I do not walk on water. And there's still a lot of places that I need to surrender and grow. But, you know, in this testimony, I just want to lift up in the name of Jesus and be honest about that journey and be honest about people that are with me, that are always before me, and may the Lord be glorified. Well, don't even give it a thought that people are trying to decide if you're genuine. You're a whole person. You are so genuine. People are pretty quick at being able to spot somebody who is just talking but not genuine. I mean, everything about you, there's just such an anointing on your sharing your testimony and the fact you point out forgiveness. That, you nailed it. Forgiveness, boy, that is where a lot of freedom will come to a lot of people. A lot of us in the body, you know, holding on forgiveness towards anybody. I think during COVID, that came up with a lot of us in the body of Christ. You know, you had a whole lot of time for introspection and doing church from home. And I know for us, even in our home, we were, is there any areas of unforgiveness? And so, yeah, you nailed it. I think we cannot move forward in the greater things of the Lord and experience all that he desires to show us and to pour into us and love us if we have any harbored unforgiveness in our hearts. Amen. Amen, sister. You know, I really hold on to that. You know, I speak. I'm so thankful the Lord has opened up doors for me to speak around the country and to share this testimony in different venues and churches. And oftentimes, I'll go to a church, big or small, and I'll see people that are carrying this burden, that are carrying this pain, carrying this wound. And it's like they're limping. You know, they love Jesus. If they lost their life, they'll go to heaven. But they're carrying this wound and this pain and this shame and this hurt and they're carrying the rest of it. It's kind of like they're running with a weight on their leg. They're running shackled to it. God really wants to set us free from that. And that's why Jesus died. You know, we are set free. And, yes, sometimes we've got to repent. Oh, as always, we've got to repent. But, you know, God makes a way. And whatever that forgiveness journey looks like to you, let God be the center of it. And that means, you know, I met people that are mad at people that are dead and gone. They can't go to them. They can't write a letter. But yet, they're still carrying that pain. And, you know, hey, I'm still mad at my mom. She's been gone 20 years. I'm still mad at my uncle. He's been gone. And sometimes it's because of abuse and sometimes it's not. But I'll tell you, trauma and pain is never so buried that it's never, you know, that stuff always comes out. It comes out in one way or another. And I tell people, you know, sometimes we think we've got it so buried and we've got it in this nice little space locked away place in our psyche. But yet, it's going to come out. Ask the people who love you. You know, ask the people who care about you, who live with you every day. You know, there are places they can't go because they know they're going to wake up there. There are places that you'd rather just snap people's heads off if it goes too close. And that's oftentimes because of the fear of the pain coming back up. So we say, don't go there. Don't deal with it. I don't want to talk about it now. But yet, it's still like a rudder in our lives controlling us, you know, like a rudder that steers a boat. It's still gravitating us to something and making us leave other things. And I lived in that state for a long time. My abuse gravitated me to things and pushed me away from others. But now I just want to run free with Jesus. And I stumble and I fall and he picks me up and I grow and I mature and I make my mistakes. But you know what? No luck is in the past only. The past will always be a part of my story. It will always be a part of my narrative. You know, it's true that I was abused and neglected and molested and beaten and burned. I can never wish that away. That will always be a part of my narrative. And again, it's not who I am, not who I am. And the worst part of our life doesn't have to be who we are. And that's why I say Christ, we are new creations in him. The old is gone and the new has come. Jesus Christ leads us and touches us. But the enemy is like the lion that wants to come kill, steal, and destroy. And the lion never attacks the herd. The lion never attacks the herd because the herd protects itself. It's too big, it's too strong. The lion always attacks the stragglers. And pain and shame. And the enemy wants to keep us as stragglers. Hey, the church is full of hypocrites. They'll never understand. Oh, they're perfect people. All they want is your money. Oh, they think they're... And that hurt and shame and pain keeps us away. And the enemy is easy to attack us. But when we run and we are the body of Christ. When we run together in unity. When we stumble and we pray one for another. And we forgive and we walk in this thing. And in good times and in hard times. And we're running in faith. And the enemy is not going to have that easy target. Because we can lift up each other's burdens. And we can pray one for another. But the past and the hurt and the shame and the unforgiveness. And the wounds and the abuses. Are all those things that want to hold us back from running to Jesus. You know, that's where we run to. I'm thankful to be a pastor of a church. And I'm thankful for our church traditions. And our church culture. And I love it. It's blessed me my whole life. But I know I don't run to the church. I run to Jesus. I run to Jesus because at the feet of Jesus is where I'm saved. At the feet of Jesus is where I'm whole. At the feet of Jesus, the words of God is what fills my heart. You know, the Bible says the word of the Lord is a lamp unto our feet. And that's what strengthens me. Oh, you guys got me preaching now. Oh, I love it. Oh, this is great. Awesome. So good. So we've got 2025 coming up here. Do you see any changes or anything different going on with your ministry? Or are you just going to continue? We're really excited about some things that are happening. You know, 2025, we hope in January. We're just waiting for the final T's to be crossed and I's to be dot. But we're releasing a new book. I get to put the pastor hat a little bit on. And I wrote it with my wife. So, you know, half of it's going to be really good. It's a devotional. And it's called Letters to the Weary. And it's a 21-day devotional. Now, why 21 days and not 30 days or 90 days? You know, I kind of grew up and it seemed like every January people were doing a 21-day Daniel fast. That's kind of what people do. I don't know if they did it where you guys are from. But everybody I knew, it didn't matter what the church's name was, but everyone was doing these Daniel fasts. So when I think of a fast, I always think of 21 days. And so we wrote this 21-day journal to go along with a fast or maybe a class. And so we're really excited that that's going to be coming out in January. It's called Letters to the Weary. And last year we released a short film. God Opened Up Doors brought me to a filmmaker. And we shot a short film. So what's that mean? It's only about 20 minutes. It's independent. You want to know what independent means? It means we paid for it, not Hollywood or anybody else. So we made a short independent film, and we've gotten some attention. And we've won some film festivals. We're up for a Crown Award. So God's Opened Up the Doors. And, of course, I'm always available to speak out and fill my calendar with speaking across the country. So, yeah, excited about our new book, Letters to the Weary. Excited about our film, Forgiving the Nightmare. You can follow me on Facebook and Instagram and X and wherever else my kids tell me to go. So that short film, that's your life story? Yeah, well, what we did is we took one scenario, because it's hard to write a full life story in 20 minutes. So we take a scenario out of the book, and we share it. And it was the scenario where the Lord called me to go see my abuser and tell him I forgave him. Now, I don't tell that to everybody's story, and not everybody should go back to the person who wounded them. But God told me to do it, and God spoke in my heart. Now, my forgiveness was even before that. But the Lord said, I want you to go and tell him that you forgave him. And in a sense, when I walked into his room and I told him I forgave him, yet he was still spewing poison. He was still spewing tape and mocking me. And as I left that room, metaphorically, I realized I was speaking to fear. And I was really talking to fear. And even though I was telling my abuser, hey, I forgive you because Christ forgave me, in a sense, I was really saying, fear, you no longer have a hold on me anymore. I'm no longer going to live in the shadow of this. I love God too much. I love my wife too much. I love my kids too much. I love the call too much to let fear control me. Now, this fear is still trying to trap me, of course, but it no longer doesn't own me. It was owning me for almost 50 years. And now it doesn't own me anymore. Now I'm set free in Christ. Now I'm set free in Christ. Now I'm set free in Christ. Now I'm set free in Christ. Now I'm set free in Christ. Now I'm set free in Christ. Now I'm set free in Christ. Now I'm set free in Christ. Now I'm set free in Christ. Now I'm set free in Christ. Now I'm set free in Christ. Now I'm set free in Christ. Now I'm set free in Christ. Now I'm set free in Christ. Now I'm set free in Christ. Now I'm set free in Christ. Now I'm set free in Christ. 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