Specialist Phil Wight

The Mid-America Veterans Museum is a nonprofit organization that relies on donations to share and preserve veterans' stories. The podcast provides historical and educational content. The host and guests' opinions are their own. The podcast features Specialist Phil White, who shares his family's military history, including his grandfather's service in World War I and II. Phil joined the military as an 11 Bang Bang after plans to become a linguist cryptologist fell through. He served in Airborne units, including in Panama, sharing anecdotes about jumping with crocodiles. The Mid-America Veterans Museum is a 501c3 nonprofit business. Your donations serve to further the museum's mission of sharing and preserving the stories of our veterans. To donate, visit mavn.org and click on Donate. The content covered in this podcast is for general informational, historical, and educational purposes only. Discussions about historical events, military service, personal experiences, or sensitive topics are presented for educational and archival purposes. The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed by the host and or guest do not necessarily reflect the official policy or endorsement of the Mid-America Veterans Museum. Neither the organization, host, director, nor the guest shall at any time be liable for the content covered causing offense, distress, or any other reaction. Welcome to the Operation Insight Podcast from the Mid-America Veterans Museum with your hosts, Jason Galvin and Sergeant Ethan Gross. Well, welcome back, family. We are live from the Mid-America Veterans Museum, and Ethan, I'm very excited to have this guest here tonight. I know you are, so why don't you go ahead and kick us off. Tonight we're speaking to Specialist Phil White, United States Army, August 1992 to May of 1996. Here's my first question. Exactly how old are your golf clubs? My golf clubs? My golf clubs are quite old. Tell us about that. Right, so my grandfather, he was in World War I. He was a cavalry officer in World War I, like 18 years old, and then he was also in World War II. So my golf clubs are my granddad's golf clubs, and so they're very small wooden golf clubs. I bet. They're weighted to him, but then when I pull those out next to the other guys with the big iron drivers, they're like, what the hell is that? But a story comes out of it. But a story comes out of it. I love it. These golf clubs were my, and they were used on St. Louis Country Club, so your little, your high-end golf clubs, they've not seen the original, right? Yeah. Like the freaking OG of golf clubs, right? That's awesome. So I've heard you say this before. Your granddad was really too young for World War I, but too old for World War II, but found a way in both of those conflicts. Right, so, yeah. So he lived an interesting life, and, yeah, so I've got the plaque on my wall or whatever of him being a 17-year-old captain, an 18-year-old major in the cavalry. I always like, when I go to Coffin Fun, I'm like, our family's been serving the military since there were horses, right? In Scotland? You guys from Scotland? Scotland, so, yeah. So, oh, my God. Clan Campbell. So these Scottish guys, one of my best memories of my dad was going to the Forest Park in the Scottish Vessel, and they'd do the calling of the clans when the guys would come out of the woods carrying their torches, and there was a fog machine, so fog was going out of the woods, and they'd put it on the bonfire. So I'm like, man, I've got heritage. You know, this is beautiful. But then when I went up to the Scottish Vessel, I pulled my clan Campbell, and he said, we're nothing but a bunch of vagabonds and horsies. Isn't that awesome? Yeah. So your granddad was in the RAF in World War II. Is that right? Yeah, so trucked fighters and bombers and things like that. He's got presidential medals from, you know, different presidents and things like that, and might have been CIA. I don't know. We just don't know quite everything. When did he migrate to the United States? I don't recall that. So my dad was Canadian. So my dad was Canadian born, from what I understand. And if I don't remember my family history, hopefully people forgive me. But anyway, so, yeah, so that's like, you know, they had a weird, like, I remember there was a plane crash where I lost one of my uncles. Wow. And my granddad, like, ran, like, drove to that plane crash and ran to the plane, you know. Wow. But, yeah, so Canadian, you know, Canadian dad. And your father also served. Yeah, so my dad was in the Air Force, and, you know, so that was also pretty cool. I didn't know that much about his time. All I do know is, like, my favorite story was he was on a motorcycle, and there was a dog, and the dog was chasing his motorcycle. It got caught up in his wheels. He had an accident. He woke up with this beautiful French farm girl. What a way to wake up. So he was thinking that she was an angel, right? And then it was crazy because I found some notes, letters from my granddad to my dad saying that he couldn't marry the French girl, right, that he had to come back home and everything. And so the only one who really kind of supported me a lot when I was getting married to this Panamanian girl was my dad because my dad, my granddad told him he couldn't. He was not going to do the same thing to me. So this is kind of interesting. So you have this family history, pretty storied family history, but you don't do ROTC in school. You don't attend, like, a military academy. It almost seems like that wasn't quite on your trajectory until all of a sudden it was. Yeah, that was actually the craziness is that I wish I would have done ROTC. I went the other way. I went in as a grunt, you know. Sure. And I went through private college. So I spent, like, $120,000 for private college and then decided I wanted to go in the military, right? You should have had the military pay for that. I know. I don't know what the hell I was thinking. I would have had a big, fat bank account instead. Oh, man. But it was, what was I thinking? But, yeah, so that was, I did it kind of in reverse. And you sort of have a funny recruiter story. My mom pulled out some, like, a pan or something like that. Yeah, a cookware. You know, I actually blame my, you know, like, I've always been running through the woods, right? Yeah. I've always lived cops and robbers when I was growing up, ding-dong ditching, you know, maybe. Typical. Adventures. Adventures and stuff, yeah. Typical, like, little adupe rat. No. But then, like, and then my dad had me after college. I wasn't really doing what I needed to be doing. I wasn't, you know, I had not found myself, right? And my mom looked at me and goes, I think you've got a 50-50 chance of making it. And she was like, not, like, making it, but 50-50 chance of living, right? And my dad had me go have dinner with a Navy SEAL officer. And I thought that was pretty cool until he started talking about drone proofing. And then I realized that, too, a couple things. I didn't want to be in the Air Force with one wing spiraling towards the earth on fire. Sorry. That was me too soon. Sorry. Too many Hollywood movies. My friend ran across the street. Yeah, anyway. I didn't want to be on a ship sinking, you know, trapped on the bottom of a ship. I didn't want to be in a tank being targeted by a missile. Like, if I was going to go left when I should have gone right, or if I was going to step on that landmine, it was going to be on me. Sure, yeah. So, but then. Oh, it's a thought process. Yeah, you know, and then. So the Mills wasn't going to be your future. But, yeah. So I was supposed to be military intelligence. I was supposed to. I had a linguist. I was going to be a linguist cryptologist, and I had a signing bonus. That's right. So what happened to that? Yeah. So there was a. I had a signing bonus, like I said. There was a beautiful girl that was from Monterey, California that I knew from college. And that girl was like Christmas. And then I had a signing bonus. I quit my job, sold my car, and was all ready to go. Walking down to sign the final paperwork to go in as a linguist cryptologist and go the CIA route. I mean, I had it all mapped out. Yeah. This Airborne Ranger officer grabbed me as I'm going down the hall and goes, where are you going? I'm like, I'm going to go sign my paperwork with intelligence. And they're like, oh, don't do that. They're going to screw you. I'm like, no, no. All I got to do is sign the paperwork. And sure enough, I got down there. They followed me. I ruffled. I played football. They were like, oh, you're not going to be a linguist cryptologist. You're going to be an interrogator. And so they ripped up my contract in front of me and tried to make me an interrogator. So I walked back to the Airborne Ranger officer and told him he was right, that they tried to screw me. I had already sold my car, quit my job. So I'm like, let's just do this. So then what? Were you just 11 Bang Bang? Is that what you were? Yeah, 11 Bang Bang. One Papa. So, you know, started over in Ranger. Went through basic Airborne school. Went through Ranger indoctrination program. Somewhere along the way, you know, everyone and their brother wanted to get kicked out. And somewhere along the way, one of the riggers at our battalion thought, hey, it would be good to get kicked out of the military. So he threw up with parachutes. So took 550 cords and a couple of parachutes. And about that time, I was like, I don't think I want to be here anymore, right? And then I loved it. I loved the spirit of the Corps. I loved everything like that. But I didn't love the fact that all the people around me were – I was surrounded by JAG so it wasn't like what I wanted to have happen. So I went to an Airborne unit down in Panama. So let's go through a few of these things step-by-step. As a fellow paratrooper, I'm interested in this. Tell me about your Airborne experience. It was good. You know, we were the first 508 modigators. So we had our barracks, and our barracks was surrounded by a moat of caiman crocodiles. In the old days, they used to jump them. So you would – I've got pictures of them jumping crocodiles or caiman. But then one of them hit Colonel Chute, and he heard something hit his chute, and he looked up, and there was a caiman. Did you at least sedate them before you jumped with them? No, they were wild and thrashing. Crazy. Yeah. So there was a reason why they're called the modigators because they actually – so actually, I told you, I grew up with you in SuperFAP. I don't know how long we have. So I grew up with you on base for the first night. Okay, so I grew up with you. I watched platoon probably a couple too many times, right? Yeah. Like how come all the poor kids have to go, whatever. Sure. So I'm out there. I'm in charge of barracks, and this guy comes up to me at like 4, 35 o'clock in the morning, goes, Hey, White, all the gators are fighting. We have to go break them up. And I'm like, What? And then so we basically got broomsticks, 100-mile-an-hour tape, 550 cord, and we went down there, and we had to separate all the gators. And then we took the one at the bottom, had his arm almost all the way ripped off, and we took it to the base set, knocked on his door. And then we were like, Hey, can you come look at our mascot? And the guy's like, Bring it on the table. I'm like, It's not that type of mascot. He's respecting the bulldog. Right. And then he looked back at the other pickup truck, and there's a gator with the arm almost all the way torn off. Oh, my God. Yeah. That's an experience, man. Jumping out of planes and helicopters, mapping the earth was cool. I remember being in my helicopter with Black Hawk for the first time, and the guy's like, Hey, have you ever mapped the earth? I'm like, What? And I didn't even get the whole sentence out. And we were immediately streaming down, mapping the earth, like going through the jungle of a canopy of trees overhead. The river below us and just a tunnel, and we're just like a video game just going through this tunnel. I'm sure that was an experience. Yeah. So aerosol, airborne. I always tell people I'm as bad as Spanish and afraid of heights, so I married a Spanish girl and jumped out of planes and helicopters. Very nice. Just to get through those fears. Yeah, yeah. I was like, Just get it over with. Rip off that band-aid. So while we're on the topic of Panama, you got there soon after Operation Just Cause. And so I'm curious about your perspective as to what Panama was like after that operation. Right. I think it was in kind of like the healing process, right? Because it wasn't like, Hey, gringo. There was a lot of gringo, but it wasn't like gringo, right? I think a little bit after Just Cause had been over, there was a bar called My Place. And I think before I got there, but someone threw a hand grenade in there one time or something like that. So there was a little bit of danger still there, but it was pretty calm. Like the people were beautiful down there. It was good. You know, obviously the stories. In my wife's family, he actually took the people around during that night to, like, he moved some of the military personnel around that night. Wow. And I think my wife would say that she was hiding underneath a car or something like that when the bombs were going off. Wow. It was scary for them. Yeah, yeah. And it's always like, you know, this was our country and you guys came in and you did XYZ or whatever. So there's always some of that. But I think overall, you know, I think it was pretty peaceful. I was there when we turned the canal back over, right? Yeah. And then so that's when I was really happy. And then they turned the canal back over and my colonel wanted me to go. I was going to Officer Cannon School at the time, finally. I was going to, like, Green to Gold or whatever. You know, I got my Airborne Air Assault EIB. You know, I was triple stacked and I was ready to go. But then, like, we turned it back over. So they're like, oh, hey, we're going to send you to 3rd SOCI, which is Special Operations, Southern Command, Special Forces. You've been married, like, two weeks. I'm like, sir, I'm like, I'm like, I cannot go with Special Forces. I'm like, like, I remember, like, Ranger Battalion. And I was like, man, like, if I was single, sure, I would go. Yeah. But, you know, but you're married. My wife was not a military wife. My beeper would go off. I'd have to grab my rucksack and my parachute and go. There's two stories that your poor wife, the juxtaposition of these stories. I don't mean to offend her. Yeah. But let's start with the story about your wife, and then we'll get to the story. Okay. So apparently your wife first knew you as Peppermint. As Peppermint? Oh, yeah. Dude, so I always liked bold, bold striped shirts. So, like, you know, like Tommy Hilfiger or whatever. Yes. And, you know, you guys are old enough to appreciate that. Oh, yeah. But I'm going to talk to Rex because one of the shirts, even before Peppermint, there was one. I had one. So there was a president of Panama at the time was called, like, El Toro was his, like, nickname, right? Sure. And so we're in, like, there's this big festival. It's like Calle Arriba and Calle Abajo and this big, huge festival during Mardi Gras, whatever. And he's up on his balcony. I'm the only frickin' gringo in the crowd. There's a throng of people, fireworks and water cannons and all this craziness going on. But little did I know my Tommy Hilfiger shirt was his colors. And so he's up on his balcony, looks down, there's only gringo in the crowd, and I'm wearing his colors, right? But going back to Peppermint, that's where my wife, the first night I met my wife, I had been successful night of gambling. Yeah. And to a point, I got kicked out of the casino because I was writing down numbers trying to figure out how much money I'd won. And then, so then I went and I went down and one of my wife's friends spotted me. And I guess I was looking at my wife. I'm like, hey, she looks like she's a lawyer. And then her friend was like, hey, I think Peppermint's looking at you. Because I had a red and white Tommy Hilfiger shirt, so I looked like a Peppermint stick or something. That's awesome. So before we get to the story, I want to piece through this a little bit more with your wife. Because, and you've referenced this before, she was a foreign national. Right. So how did that affect your military career? I'll just ask it plainly. No, no, it didn't affect the military career. I'm more like telling my mom and dad that I was going to get married. Oh, by the way, you remember that girl I was talking about? We're actually going to get married. What was the courting process like with your wife? Yeah, well, first of all, I had to tell my mom and dad. But I didn't speak exactly a lot of English, and she didn't speak exactly a lot of Spanish. Right. I guess one of the main things she did was she would hold on. When we were walking, she would hold on to my belt loop. And it's so small. But that's one of the things I was like, why is she holding on to my belt loop? But that's one of the fonder memories. But once again, it's about nature. I've always been a big nature lover. So Panama's a beautiful country. You've got mountains and volcanoes in the jungle. And there you've got the city. And you've got the wealthy and the not-so-wealthy. And you've got the oceans right there. You can hit anything within 30 minutes between mountains. It's all there. That sounds like Lewis McChord, too. Within an hour, you can be at the beach. Yeah, yeah. Fort Lewis was a lot of that too. Temperature's different. Well, the temperature's different, but you can get all the different. Oh, my God. Yeah, no. Geographical. Geographical things, yeah. Panama, it was just like rain and this torrential rain, whereas Fort Lewis just pissed on you a little bit all year long. It sucked being infantry. I would take infantry in Panama over Fort Lewis. You knew it wasn't going to come and how hard it was going to be. Yeah, and then it would dry up and you were done. Yeah. Fort Lewis would just piss on you for as long as you wanted. We're going to get to Fort Lewis in a little bit. The last thing I'm going to ask about your wife, what do you remember about meeting her parents for the first time? Meeting her parents for the first time. I remember her house, and I remember sitting on the deck with her dad. Her dad I called Superman after a while because he was just a really good guy. He was changing a tire on his van, and he got hit by a car. He got knocked off a bridge, fell several stories down into the surf, and they had to bring a basket and bring him up. Then I called him Superman. That was his nickname after that because he literally flew. Wow. The biggest thing I remember is going to their house about family, about food, and about community. There was all the roosters, the noises of the roosters and the cars. These political cars would go by with these speakers, and it would be like 4 o'clock in the morning. It's like there was a craziness. I once again had a tight family between the brothers and their sisters and everything else like that. The one thing I loved when there was a major holiday, you would literally go from house to house to house on the street. These people wouldn't know you, but there's this roaming party on Christmas and New Year's. You just go to these houses, and there's food and music and dancing. That was always kind of cool. Apologies to your wife for this being the next story, but tell us about the story. The abuse story. I was obviously airborne in the airborne infantry, making it even worse. People were always pranking each other. In Panama, even though there wasn't an enemy, there was drugs in the area, and there were people who might steal from you, and there were people who might come to your camp, et cetera, so you never knew. The joints was important. You didn't want marauding, didn't you? No, no. You just never know. On this night, we had been breaking brush, which is basically you're just hacking your way through, and it's just tiresome. We were going uphill to this very top point, and we're like, why are we going here? Because you want the enemy. You want to be able to hear the enemy if the enemy is coming at you, right? So we're breaking brush to the most impossible place to actually stop. And then it's like 3 o'clock in the morning, right? And as infantry, you would shave and cream each other. You'd tie people to trees. You'd steal their weapons. You would just prank each other relentlessly. Even as an officer at some point. Yeah, we ended up doing that. We ended up tying people to trees and whatever. And there were always these things where you have an hour, like PT, and you had an hour where you could do anything to one of your NCOs, right, if you caught them, right? Yeah. Anyway, so I'm sleeping there at night. It's like 3 o'clock in the morning, and I could feel someone up in my mouth, right? And they're hands over my mouth, and I'm like, is this friend or foe? Am I going to knife them? No, I'm not going to knife them. Am I going to hit them in the groin? I'll probably hit them in the groin. I'll probably toss them. I don't know why they're screwing with me. And so I don't think someone's screwing with me. It's got to be someone who just doesn't know, right? But then I realized something was wrong because I could feel pressure on one cheek, pressure on my other cheek, pressure underneath my chin, pressure on top of my head. This is bigger than the grip of a hand. This is bigger than the grip of a hand. I'm like, okay, I'm surely sleeping. This is some type of weird dream. But then about that time, I felt something inside my mouth. And so whatever it was was gripping my tongue and pulling on my tongue. And meanwhile, it's all spread over my face and gripping my tongue. Like alien style. Yeah, like alien, totally. And, like, that's where I thought I was obviously, like, dreaming. But then it was real. And then I realized what had happened was a jungle tarantula had crawled up on my face. And then so it had thought my tongue was a nice, big, juicy slug. And, you know, so it was pulling my tongue out of my mouth. And I'm like, I can't yell because it will bite me and then I'll die. Because by the time my helicopter gets in here, I would die. I would die. Can't move. It would get scared. And it would bite me and I'd die. Can't call for help. It would bite me and I'd die. And everything I thought of was that, like, it would bite me and I'd die. So I was like, okay, the only thing left to do was I had to bite it first. So I, like, bit through its hairy crab-like midsection and it popped and puffed and, like, burst into everything. And then I just basically turned and spat it out. That is awesome. That's, like, nightmarish to me. That is freaking awesome. But as soon as I bit into it, it was so scared, you know, because I was, like, popping and crushing. It wasn't expecting a reaction. And so it released, like, a spring trap, which is perfect because then I could just spit it into the bushes. And then I woke up and I packed up all my gear, went to the guard on duty. I'm like, don't worry, I got the rest of the night, you know. You need a T-shirt for that? You know, with a tarantula bit in the hat that's going to bite me? Well, there was actually this thing called 3F, which is Faith Fitness and Fellowship, right? And so I went to 3F. And when you go there, it's a lot like the military. They don't use your name. You get a nickname. And so my nickname was Spiderite. That's great. That is great. So since I knew that story, I was looking up. I don't know if you know, but I'm wondering if that was the Panama Blonde, which is such a nice name for a spider. Oh, yes. That's one of the most common tarantulas in Panama. Well, I was surely hoping if it was tongue in me that it was blonde, right? There you go. You know. Nice. I don't know. There were a lot of Panama Blondes. Okay, I said apologies to your wife that these stories were next to each other. Oh, my God. I might have gotten out of the timeline a little bit. So Fort Lewis was before Panama? No, Fort Lewis was after Panama. Oh, it was after. Okay. So basically, after we deactivated, and this was crazy, but after we deactivated, we went up to Fort Lewis. And that was one of my wife's favorite trips, was navigating from where I lived, St. Louis, all the way up to Fort Lewis. Because the military would only let you drive like six hours a day. So we took five days to get up there. So everything up there. What did you do? Like go to the Badlands? Yeah, the Badlands. Black Hills. With the like Devil's Tower. Yeah, sure. And like Mount Rushmore and things. Yeah, Mount Rushmore. It was all like Buffalo. I've done that trip two or three times. Dude, like I remember just seeing a buffalo, and I just put the car into lock. I locked it up. I'm like, buffalo, buffalo. And I'm like, I was made of just the biggest thing, a buffalo. But, yeah, so then we would wear the man's shoes, and that was cool because we had the BDU, we had the dreadlock. The dreadlock BDUs, so you rip up your BDUs and make dreadlocks on your helmet to like ruin your silhouette or whatever. And that was badass. We would like show up, everyone nice and clean cut, and then we'd show up in our freaking dreadlock BDUs. And then we became the first of the 24th Infantry Regiment, and we had to get rid of our dreadlocks. So that was cool. How long were you at Lewis-McCord? I was there two years. And probably the biggest difference was down in Panama, we were just a little Fisher Battalion of the 82nd. And, you know, the coolest thing stuff did was, you know, jumping in the air assault and blowing stuff up, right? And we had demo teams that came down and would teach us demo. But when we got up to Fort Lewis, it was cool because we had the A-10 Warthogs. Sure. And then we had the M1 Abrams. So that was fun with using both of those and kind of combining combat. Sounds like fun. And you were an M60 gunner. Right. So I was an M60 gunner. And as you may know, that's been replaced by the M240 now. The SAW? Yeah. Okay. Does that seem like an equivalent weapon system? No, no, because we actually had the SAW and M240 at the same time as the M60 gunner. I remember being on an objective, and there was a SAW gunner who was walking his fire in front of me and trying to be, like, high speed. And splintering this bunker in front of me. And sandbags were, like, just blowing up in front of me because this SAW gunner thought he was being, like, high speed. Yeah. And didn't realize I had a 60. Like, I was a 60 gunner, so I'm like, okay, you want to walk fire? I can walk fire. And so I proceeded to spray a bunch of M60 bullets, which are a lot bigger, over in front of him. And he quickly lifted his fire. Well, hey, wait. One second. This is non-scripted, but I've got to tell you anyway. So Louisiana, Louisiana Swamp Phase. We're in Swamp Phase. I'm in the front. I'm guiding all these people through, and I kept telling them I'm going to speed up. I kept telling them that the water's getting deeper and deeper and deeper, right? Yeah. So they told me to stay on Azenith. So I've got 240 people behind me, and we're going through Swamp Phase. And so I'm like, you want to go straight? We're going to go straight. Like shoulder-deep water. And then it was about that time that I came up on the alligator hole. Oh, man. And so I put my hand in there, switched around, nothing grabbed my hand, so I, like, went in the alligator. So I went in and out of, like, three alligator holes, right? So we were on, and then I've got 240 people behind me, right? And then so I get up on the last alligator hole, and I was pretty confident by this time that they all had, like, scooted out. And I go up there, and mind you, I'm, like, 200, probably 230. I've probably got 100 pounds of gear on me. Sure. I've got my M60, which is probably another 40 pounds or whatever. And as I come up to this last hole, I step, and then bubbles just started surging all around me. And I could feel, like, all 300, 400 pounds of me was being lifted out of the water. Oh, wow. And I could feel these scales, like, in between my legs, right? And so I said, God, I am not going to go down by an alligator. If I have a fully loaded M60, like, I'm going to pray and spray, or spray and pray. And right as I was, like, locking into fully loaded and, like, pointing my muzzle down, and I'm, like, I'm going to get in all sorts of trouble. At least I'm going to shoot this alligator, right? And then this huge sunken log came up. Oh, how about that. And so I was, like, holy shit. So after we got out of there, the rangers who were guiding us, and they're, like, the ranger cadre was, like, you know, we've been doing this for, like, 10 years, and that's the first group to ever walk straight through the swamp. You know, it's like most people would go around. And that's exactly what I was trying to do the whole time. That's not the airborne way. No, no. We go straight frickin' through. That's awesome. Okay, so Panama, you have your experience at Panama. You have your experience at Fort Lewis. You referenced it earlier. Part of the reason you decided to get out is family, wife, and want to get back to normal life. Right. So tell us a little bit more about making that decision and if it was hard. Right. You know, so I think that there was a point probably up in Fort Lewis where, you know, like, oh, hey, I want to get out, or whatever, you know, you're kind of going through it. Because, like, I left, you know, like, you're either going to make a career out of it or you're not going to make a career out of it, right? And then when you realize you're not making it, like, when I wasn't going through OCS anymore, I wasn't going to Osterkamp School. I did all the training for that. But then, like, I elected when my unit deactivated, I'm just going to come back and I'm going to do two years and get out, right? So that sucked because I was supposed to be an officer the whole frickin' time, right? Yeah. And that was just, like, and I knew that I was going to go into combat field and I had to be led before I could lead, right? Yeah. And you get the triple stack, you get the Ranger tab, and then you're, like, you're off to the races, right? Well, so this is a good lead-in. Right. I've heard you say before in a previous interview that if you could go back, and this is something we don't hear very often, so I appreciate your honesty. Yeah. But you would change it if you could go back. You would do ROTC. Right. You would enter as an officer. And, heck, you might have even stayed in for 20 years. Right. So I think that there's a lot of people who serve 20 in the military and they get out and they do another 20 in the private sector. Sure. And then they've got a double pension. And so they might have gone in when they're 20. Yeah. And then so when they're 60, they basically have a double retirement, right? Yeah. Financially, it's smart. Yeah. So, financially, it's smart. I've met several people who have done it. But I think that, like, being away from your family that long. There's a toll. I mean, there's always a freaking toll. Especially in a deployable unit. Yeah. Yeah. And then with, like, kids. Like, even when I got back out, I wanted to go in the FBI, you know? But could I have that follow me home, right? And you have a young family. And, you know, if you serve the pie and you do different things, you put different people down than those people. Like, it's easy when you're in Afghanistan or Iraq. When you're back home, you know, there's little to no odds of it following you home, right? It can follow you home in a lot of other ways, right? Yeah. But if you're, like, if you're dealing with bad guys here or even bad guys in, like, Mexico or whatever. Sure. And they will come back for you, right? And that's just a risk you always run. There's a whole flurry of questions I want to ask you about post-military life. And this one's going to lead into post-military life. The story about your wife, you referenced it just briefly, that you had gone to the casino. What I've heard as part of that story before from you is many times after the duty day, you just tell one to get away from it all. And so you go to the casino or you go to a discotheque. Right. You go out on the town. That's interesting to me because you've also mentioned in a previous interview, you've also mentioned that you haven't kept up with any of your fellow soldiers in that time. No. So I'm just curious, was it a personality thing? Was it just kind of fed up with these people thing? No. What kept you from, I guess, strongly bonding? Yeah, yeah. So, you know, I think it's, like, distance, right? And, you know, like, that's really the hardest thing that for people getting out of the military is you wake up one day and you don't have a platoon anymore. Right? So, you know, like, my guys were down in Panama. They're up in Fort Lewis. They're in different states. So that makes it incredibly hard to, like, keep in touch. Sure. And that's, like, just the main break. You know, you've got a company of, like, 120, 130 people that you basically, you know, you've lived with, you've eaten with, you've played with, you know, you've got fights with and all this jazz, and then one day you're not there anymore, right? And the technology wasn't the same back then as it is now. Yeah. So it's harder to stay with people. Yeah. You know, and every once in a while, like, you know, like, if you say motor gator or, like, helicopters and gators and they're like, oh, dude, I was a motor gator. And then you, like, connect and you, like, share pictures. And, like, shit, that wasn't that. That actually did happen that way. It wasn't. And then I could share it with my kids. Like, look, you know why I said I jumped out to go throw gators? Like, here's a gator and here's the airplane. And this is us carrying a gator to the airplane or whatever. You know, so. So this is interesting. This leads to my next question. I'm not great at math, so let me do some quick math. About 20 years, if I'm remembering correctly. For about 20 years, it almost seems like you disassociate from your military career. Right. You don't have any apparel. Right. You don't attend any sort of community events for veterans. And all of a sudden you attend an event at a Jewish community center and it clicks. Right. I think that that's, like, that's kind of, like, the strangest thing. It's like you, I think when I got out, maybe you like a VFW, right? Sure. I think I might have walked into VFW or Legion Hall or whatever. You know, you like American Legion, like a veteran of a foreign war. Well, I wasn't a veteran of a foreign war. Right. And, you know, so you don't feel like you click with the other veterans. Right. Yeah. So you were looking for connections soon after you got out and you just couldn't find it. And then it just got easier and easier to just kind of, like, fade into that work. Yeah. That's interesting. That's interesting. And then so it just got easier and easier. And then, as you said, I was at the Jewish community center and I saw these World War II guys with their hats and their medals and everything. And I'm like, dude, like, what is my damage, right? And I was like, I didn't have any military. Like, I didn't have an Army strong shirt. Didn't have an Army strong hat. Like, nothing. Like, nothing, nothing, nothing. Didn't attend any veteran events. And, like, it's not rare because I've met Vietnam War veterans who I brought up to a vet and they're like, Phil, this is the first time I've ever been to a veteran event. I slowly realized, like, here are these guys bonding. Different guys bonding. World War II guys bonding together who had friends who used to serve. And maybe they didn't serve with each other, but they shared a common thing. Yeah. So then I'm like, okay, these guys are dying. Like, I would see it in nights at Columbus. You see it everywhere. Like, there are these older guys who are dying. And, like, you expect someone else to pick up the torch, right? Yeah. And, like, the other people who are going to pick up the torch is you, right? So, like, we mentioned coffee talk. There's 150 people there. The median age is probably 60 or 70 years old. There's no one like me. So you've got 150 veterans and I'm the only one that's 50-something there. There might be five, six guys, right? I'm glad you – I hope you don't mind me getting into this topic with you. I think you're going to have an interesting perspective. Something I've heard before, I'm sure Jason has heard of this as well, and you've said it. VFW, we'll just use that as an example, Veterans of Foreign Wars. I think for especially veterans from my generation, a VFW comes off as sort of an old smoky bar where all the old farts hang out. Right. And it's not exactly welcoming for especially post-9-11 veterans. Right. So you guys basically have, you know, and I love all the VFWs out there. So don't get me wrong. I love all the old cranky veterans who smoke and drink and like all that stuff, right? But it wasn't my vibe, right? And so I actually had a guy from St. Louis Priory, Tom Cummings, invited me over to the LaDue Elks. And so like the LaDue Elks was like the happy medium. There was like volleyball and there was a pool and the drinks were cheap and it was like the Vail Prophets. It was like kind of elite St. Louis and there were Priory guys there from my high school. So I felt like I belonged. And then there was this really cool like veteran niche there. And so I think that that was really my kind of happy medium. So I think what I was talking to you before, like the first thing I turned 50 is a midlife crisis probably. I bought a Jeep. I had that conversation with World War II guys. I think I bought a Jeep shortly after that. Yeah. And then I joined Christian Off-Road Association. I'm like, hey, I've got a Jeep. I should join a Jeep club. And that's the first Jeep club. I'm like, okay, it's faith-based and Jeeps. I think I could dig that. The first meeting I walked out of there and there was a guy with a Patriot Guard Jeep there. And he had like a Templar Knight on his license plate. And I saw the Patriot Guard decal. I'm like, hey, what's that? And he's like, dude, that's like, he told me what it was. I'm like, what do you have to do to like go join it? Do you have to be like a special veteran or whatever? He's like, no, dude, you just go and sign up online. And then he had his leather jacket, his leather biker jacket, you know, with all his medals and his unit and everything like that. I'm like, man, that's a fucking jacket. Sorry. That jacket is badass, you know. And it's like, oh, we can go down to Chuck's booth. I'll buy one with you tomorrow. And I'm like, oh, my wife would freaking kill me, you know. I'm like, oh, dude, God, I'm going to go buy a biker jacket, you know. But sure enough, the next day we bought that biker jacket and we started putting decals and stuff on it. And that was cool. And then that just led to getting involved with the Kauffman Fund, Roll to Honor, Talks for a Brave. And it just like because then I had a Jeep, I had my biker jacket, I went to a veteran concert, and that is where I met Gunner. So it all just blossomed from there. I want to hear the Gunner story, but one thing I want to say before we get into that, I just want to say from my perspective as a younger vet, Bill, I want to really commend you because, you know, you said jokingly, a midlife crisis. I think your story is a great representation, but it's never too late to find your community. Right. Absolutely. And it's never too late to find your niche in life. Right, for sure. I really appreciate that you had that experience, and I really appreciate you talking about it so openly with us. Yeah. It is super important in like, you know, we all go through stuff, right? Yeah. And I think finding that community is good. Like my dad did like St. Vincent de Paul, right? Sure. And I think my dad was in a bad spot maybe, you know, just with work and being early retired and everything and just needed to find purpose, right? And so that like saved my dad, right? And I just knew that, you know, getting involved in different stuff like that was like just a way of not only like giving back to the community, but then also finding that camaraderie, you know, because like there's not, you know, sometimes there's not camaraderie in the normal world, right? And so I think that that was. Well, and also this is something that several guests of ours have expressed to us, and it sounds like that's what you're alluding to. There's a certain understanding that veterans have that no one else will understand. Right. And I think that like, and I'll express this time and time again, was that I think for me to meet veterans, I had to meet them on like a common playing field, right? Sure. And I think that one of the things that really kind of spring loaded that whole thing was like car shows. Like I think like Patriot Guard because you're seeing shoulder to shoulder with a guy and you're just shooting the shit, and like, you know, like Patriot Guard was great to meet veterans, but I think when I started doing car shows and stuff like that, I think that that was, and then Gunner. Gunner and Gunner was an immediate like bond for a lot of, you know, people come up, oh, my God, your dog's awesome, you know? And like if it wasn't for Gunner and it wasn't for car shows or some type of commonality, like we wouldn't talk to each other, right? It's a great conversation starter. Yeah, yeah. And I think that, you know, having that like something in common where it's like Elk's Lodge, right? I go to Elk's Lodge and there's like 30 veterans, but they've got something in common, right? Yeah. And then when you start doing that, you realize it's easier and easier and easier. So my favorite story of fear was, I'm going to say Bud. Bud Hatakee. Yeah. I interviewed him twice on this podcast. So Bud was a great guy and he like, you know, he helped me a lot. 17. He was a 17 bomber pilot. I think he did like the 20 combat missions. Something like that. Yeah. He recorded every single one of them too, yeah. Yeah. So, but I remember being up at the diner, Bishop's Post Diner. Sure. And I had set my laptop up and I was fully intended to do about two hours of work, right? Yeah. So I went to the restroom, came back and there's an older gentleman who had a World War II hat on and it's like, it's the Air Force. Yeah. And I remember just sniping him as I went by. I'm like, oh, Air Force guy, huh? And then I was like, and I kept walking and then he says, not just Air Force, B-17 bomber pilot. Yeah. And so immediately I turned back and I'm like, and I started talking to him and we sat down. I'm like, can I sit with you? He's like, sure. And we sat down and my food was way over there. And my computer was way over there. And this was not what I was supposed to be doing. But at that time, this was what, like, so-called God intended me to do. So I sat down with Bud and we talked forever, right? And he actually, at one point during our conversation, he was like, hey, can I sing you a song? And it was a song you wrote? Yeah, it was a song he wrote. And I'm like, okay. And then he, to make it worse, he stood up and he started singing the song in the middle of the conversation. He was proud of that song, man. Dude, yeah. He was. Have you seen it in the movie? I'm not sure if I've seen it in the movie or not. But so the cool thing about Bud, I think this was just after COVID or like around COVID or whatever, Bud had lost contact with the veteran community. He was not getting out with the veteran community. He had lost contact. His daughter was worried. And then I remember getting Bud involved with Full Donner, Tim Maxwell Full Donner. We went down to Cottonville, our defiance parade, got him in front and center and got his story out there a couple different times. So that's just, yeah. He was an amazing man. So that's where the commonality or just like where it gets easier, where you see a veteran with a hat on. I remember I was at a different restaurant. I think it was Cracker Barrel. And I saw a guy with a sniper hat. And he was standing with his wife. And I'm like, I gotta hear that guy's story, right? And so I like sniped him again. I'm like, huh, sniper, huh, or something like that. And he goes like, not just a sniper. I was like President Roosevelt's sniper. He was treated as a presidential sniper. So he lived in the White House with his wife. And they were presidential snipers. It's funny you say that because like on Veterans Day, every restaurant has some sort of dealer discount. And I love to go in. Like Applebee's is really popular around here. I love to go in. I'm not going to lie. There's no blonde Panamanians. I love going into those restaurants on Veterans Day specifically because they're just packed with veterans. And the thing I wanted to relate this to is for our audience out there, even if you're not a veteran, even if you don't understand the military history or community, that's okay. Just know that if someone's wearing their branch on their hat, shirt, jacket, whatever, they want to be asked about it. Yeah, it is. It's seriously an open invitation. And even so, you know, like my wife gets mad because I'm a financial planner. And I have a suit, my suit jacket, I have a LeDoux Elk. I have an Airborne Medal. I have an SDL Heroes Network Medal. I've got like a lot of that. And I'm like, okay, I can't put any more medals on that side. I'll put some medals over here. But it is an open invitation. Hey, you're an elk. I'm an elk. You know, you were Airborne. I was Airborne, right? And so that incident, people are looking for connectivity or connection. And if you're just a stranger on the street and there's, like if those guys weren't wearing their World War II hats, I would have never talked to them. I would have never talked to them. I would have never had that conversation. I would have never bought my jeep. I would have never found my dog. Well, I'm glad you're saying that, Bill, because, I mean, I think as a, you know, veteran adjacent person, not a veteran himself, I've heard a lot of people tell me, hey, I'm kind of cautious or afraid to go up to somebody because I'm afraid I might, you know, make them feel something they don't want to feel. But what I'm hearing from you guys is they do want you to approach them and ask them about it. That's been my experience, Bill. I know some people who don't want to talk about it. Like you see that in the movies sometimes. I think it's all about the way you approach that. Yeah, exactly. You don't want to go in saying, how many people did you kill? Right, right. That's the wrong way to do it. Or you could ask them to tell them, you know, tell them about your service or what unit you were in. You know, kind of like a good example of this, People's National Bank is my event sponsor. So they're doing great things for the community and everything else like that. The president of People's National Bank is actually a veteran. I asked his people, have you ever seen a military picture of him? And they're like, we've never seen a military picture of him. So I'm doing my event. I'm like, get me a military picture of him, right? And because he has a story, and he has a story to tell. And nobody's asking him about that story. So, like, one of the things I like about you guys is, and this is true, that, like, I heard people say that you die twice. You die when you, like, physically die, and then you die when nobody else is saying your name anymore. And so that's where I'm like, you know, this is important. I want you to get, honestly, I haven't gotten that picture. But I'm not done yet, right? You'll get it, I'm sure. You guys are sending me a bunch of pictures. I'll be like, look, wouldn't it be nice if, like, his picture was included in all this? Since you referenced Gunner, and Gunner plays such an important role in your life now and has for, I think, the past nine years or so? Like six years. Six years. Tell us about meeting Gunner for the first time. Right. So I think that that was, like I said, I was in that point of where I was trying to find myself, right? You're like, hey, I'm going down this road. And you're like, you're going up and just trying to talk to people, right? Like, you can probably, like, you would never know with me if I had a massive stuttering problem when I was growing up, right? And so to beat that, I just talked to people, right? I'm like, you know, and, you know, if I get stressed out, I still do it now. But anyway, so when I met Gunner, I was sponsoring a veteran event. It was a veteran concert. Freedom Jam? No, this was just some other little rinky-dink thing. I forget what it was about even. But I was there, and there weren't a lot of people there. Like, the bands were off, and the bands were freaking cool. But there was, like, maybe 50 people, like, in between the veterans and whatever. So I just got bored, and I was walking around. And Dogs on Duty was over there, and I went by their place, and there was this huge mangy mongrel underneath their table. And he was kind of, like, in the shadows too, and he's already dark, but he's in the shadows. And I could just tell that there was a beast down there somewhere. And I go up to him, and I go, like, who's that big mangy mongrel underneath their table? And he's like, that's Gunner. And I'm like, well, I got something. Like, I used to be a Gunner, so we got something in common. And then the lady's like, you know, I train police dogs, and I train service dogs. I have no need for clingy therapy dogs. And I'm like, and then so I did what everyone else does. I, like, looked at him, walked away, came back. I tried to take a picture, took a picture, walked away back. Can I pet him? Okay, I can pet him. Walked away, came back. I want to know more of his story, whatever. And then about three months later I was at another veteran event, and that was actually when I met the Vietnam guy who's never been to a veteran event. And I was, like, I think I was looking online. I'm like, holy cow, they actually are trying to find someone to adopt Gunner. And I went there, and there were, like, 100 people in front of me. And I'm like, I've got, like, all these people have dogs already. And, like, look at my backyard. It's got a nice fence. Look at my farm. I just started bombarding this lady with different pictures. So I think finally, I think Fourth of July weekend I took Gunner for the first time. Lots of fireworks, went out to my farm, went out to St. Charles, took all over the place with Gunner. But it sucked because come Monday or whatever it was like turning back a rental car. I'm like, hey, here's your dog back. And, like, I didn't know if I was going to get him or not get him. There were people in front of me. And then, like, about three days later she said I got him. So it was like a trial program that you had. It was like a trial program, like, take it out, see what it's like, tell us. And I bombarded her. I'm like, look at all these pictures I took of Gunner. You were already bonding with him. Yeah, yeah, I was already bonding with him. And she knew that, like, I didn't have young, young kids, so nobody for Gunner to pull over. It was a good fit. Yeah, so it was a good fit. She knew I would get him out. Tell us, Jason and I are both dog lovers. Right. And I also have two cats, but I do love dogs. So tell us one story that you find really encapsulates how Gunner has changed your life. Well, there's some pretty tragic stories. But I think, man, there's not, like, one story, right? I think that, like, you start to go back to, like, hey, who saved who or whatever, right? Sure. And I think that, you know, Gunner has been, it's like, he's easy. No matter, like, what type of mood I'm in or whatever, I could go out in the public and people will come over and say hi to Gunner to get their pictures taken. And so that being able to bond with other people through Gunner has probably been the best thing, I think, that, like, it drives my wife crazy. You know, and I've got, like, I've got thousands. Like, Gunner's easily the most photographed dog here in St. Louis. Like, Gunner's just made it easy talking with everyone and sharing a story, sharing a story about military or sharing a whatever, bonding with other veterans, giving back to the community because he got me involved in everything, you know. It was just that much easier. It was, like, sometimes I'm going to events, I need a wing person, right? Sure. And so, you know, then, like, my friends, you can see me on Facebook, you'll be like, yeah, Phil definitely has a lot of wing people he likes to hang out with. But more importantly, like, Gunner's the one that doesn't get me in trouble, right? Yeah. Because he's just a dog. But, yeah, so he is a therapy dog, so that's where I go out to schools and hospitals and nursing homes and veteran groups and, you know, so, like, you help other people and that's why you help yourself, right? Thank you for sharing that, too. Yeah, thank you for sharing that for sure. This leads really well, and I could be wrong. Right. But was Gunner part of your journey to reaching out to the VA? Probably. You know, like, Gunner was good and, like, you know, and so there's different things that, like, go on and you're dealing with different things. And, like, I had mentioned that, you know, hey, let's, like, broach that conversation, like, talk about the VA, right? Because it's always been kind of, like, in the veteran world, it seems like I was 50 years old, I didn't do anything for veterans, and, like, all that's taboo, and, like, God forbid we talk about the VA and I've heard all sorts of horror stories about the VA, et cetera, right? But anyway, so I think at one point, you know, we all go through stuff and everything else like that, even people who are not veterans, right, but more so veterans, right? And so, you know, you're going through these different things and thinking about things and then you're, like, I think at one point I was feeling kind of low and I'd always heard about 988, you know, which is basically the suicide helpline. And I was, like, I think one day I was, like, thinking about it and I was, like, fuck it, I'm just going to call, right? I'm, like, you know, so, like, I've actually had other veterans have a hard time, you know, and, like, you know, you want to help those guys, you don't know where to direct them or whatever, and it's about, hey, like, it's easy stuff for, like, the coffin fund, for dental, you know, if you need medical, you can go here or you can go here. But for a straight up, like, I'm sitting in a car with a gun, right? And, you know, and so you don't, you know, so anyway, so I wasn't in a car with a gun, but, you know, there have been times or whatever. And then so I'm, like, I'm screwed, I'm going to reach out, you know, I'm going to do this 988 thing because I figure if you talk about it, if you address it, if you hit it head on, if you take away, I guess, the fantasy or the whatever, like, whatever goes through people's heads, like, hey, like, man, it would be a lot better if I wasn't here, right? And so anyway, so I end up calling, and it was a really great thing because I think I was going to, like, an appointment. I was going to this really big appointment for, like, financial planning or whatever, and I was just, like, having a drive and just thinking about stuff and about life and things like that. I'm, like, okay, I'm freaking going to call. And then so I end up calling them, and it was a good call. You know, we, like, talked about different stuff, and I don't know if it actually resolved anything at that time, but I was glad that I made the call, right? I think shortly after that, I talked to my family. You know, I talked to my kids, whatever. I took the guns, like, the guns out of my house, you know, and I'm, like, that's, like, you know, I always had a rule, like, after I came out of the military, there were no guns, right? There were no guns in my house because I didn't want to hurt someone else. I didn't want to hurt myself. And especially with kids and everything else like that. But, like, one of my sons, he, like, when he graduated from college, I think I bought him a shotgun and he kept the shotgun at my house. I'm, like, son of a gun. What don't you understand about no guns? And then during COVID, my youngest was, like, hey, Dad, we need a gun just in case. You know, and I'm, like, well, like, hunting for food, going out to the farm. I can kind of understand that. I'm, like, okay. He goes, like, one of my friends has a gun and he wants us to just have an extra gun. And I'm, like, okay. So he brings home this, like, AR-15. And I'm, like, okay, this thing is kind of cool. And then I'm, like, all right. I'm, like, I'll go out to the farm and I'll shoot it and I got attached to that AR-15, right? But, you know, but there was, like, one thing, like, I knew that that thing was right there, right? And so anyway, so then, like, and then so I, like, got that away and I got with the VA and I started going through, like, even, like, prescriptions, like, simple stuff. Like, hey, I need prescriptions. Like, that was easy. I engaged with some forms of physical therapy for, like, one of my knees and that was good. But then I had a counselor or so also at home or something like that. And so I started engaging with that lady. I was a counselor. That was good. That helped out a lot. There was another program, Strength at Home, which dealt with anger management, which we actually have to keep it light. So there was one time when Strength at Home deals with anger management, right, and different things. And, like, a really cool, a really good program because it helps a lot of different veterans. And, like, it also helps me understand where I don't want to be, right? A lot of these guys have been assigned to the program because they've been arrested or they've gone through a divorce or they don't want to have customers or kids anymore, et cetera, et cetera. They're on their fifth marriage, whatever. So, anyway, I'm rushing back home to get on this Strength at Home call. And I get on the call. I've been rushing all day long. I get on the call right as I'm supposed to get on the call, my phone dies. And I was like, what? And it was just like this tirade of, like, vulgar language and cursing and, like, ethnic slurs and, like, everything you could possibly imagine. Like, it was just going off, right? Because my phone was dead, right? Well, I actually had earbuds in. And so, like, and then everyone else is on that call. There's, like, 10 or 12 people on that call. And I hear this voice in my earbud, long after my phone's dead, like, Phil, Phil, are you okay? And then it basically shuts off, right? So I recharge my phone. I get back on the call. And I'm like, guys, I'm sorry about that. Like, I was just pissed off. And I'm like, and I choked. It was an awesome, like, love phase because I'm like, well, I guess we all know why I'm doing this now. But, yeah, just to kind of go back, you know, like, I'm glad I did it. I'm glad I engaged, you know, which was crazy. I actually did my first meditation hypnosis meeting this last week. And I've never been, like, I'm not going to be hypnotized. There's no freaking way, you know. But there was twice, which I don't know if I fell asleep or I was hypnotized. I still don't know. But it was cool. It was a good group. And so there's different things I'm trying out. Just explore, like, what, like, melds with me. And then also just being around some other veterans who might be going through the same thing. If you don't mind, Phil, because I think, first of all, Jason, I really appreciate you being so vulnerable with us. Yeah, thank you so much, Phil. I don't want to just thank you for the story and move on. Right, right. If you're willing to, what I'm really curious to hear about is those moments in time between considering doing something life-changing, or in this case life-ending, and making that phone call. How did you bridge that gap? I think it was like, you know, like, probably like, no, not probably, for sure, was like, you know, the biggest thing is like, this isn't going to be my legacy, right? Gotcha. You know, and it's like, you know, like, yeah, things might be tough, might not be where you want them to be. It might be easier if you weren't here anymore, you know. But then you're like, how many people have it far, far worse than you do? You're like, like, quit being a frickin' wimp or whatever, you know. But it's okay to have those thoughts, right? It's like, you know, we all go through that. I think if you ask anyone to be real, like, in the world, I'm not even with veterans, I'd probably be like 60% of the world has thought about it at least once, right? Yep. Like, even if, like, I'm driving down the road, I see a light pole on the side of the road or something like that, you know, like, you know, whatever, right? Yep, you're 100% right, man. And I'll jump in here too, Phil, because I think that it matters. A couple years ago, man, I thought I was having a heart attack. So I told my wife, call 911. Well, I was having a panic attack. Right. And I'd never had one before. I didn't know what it was like. I was always opposed to getting counseling, having any type of medication to help me out in the stressors of life and in the time frame of life that I'm in. And then I tell you what, going to counseling, getting on some medication changed my life. Right. So I want people to know there's no problem reaching out for help. Well, yeah, and I appreciate you sharing that too, because a lot of people, you know, like, I tell people I've got 10 little sisters right now, and each of them is going through something, right? There's one that had a baby in the front seat, and she had a gun in the back seat, and she was, you know, and then there's these different things that, like, impact us. You talk about medication. Like, I got ADHD, and, you know, it is a blessing and a curse all at the same time. You know, I'm constantly thrill-seeking and, you know, dealing with depression. Or, you know, finally I went back on Adderall for the ADHD, and, you know, I tell people I'm on a couple uppers, a couple downers, and, you know, whatever. You know, but does it help, or is it just a mind thing or whatever? But probably the biggest thing is just talking about it, right? Right, exactly. And then, like, I actually have to reengage Vivian on a couple things. I missed a couple appointments. I was supposed to be doing some stuff, and it's like weeks were just passing and passing, and I wasn't doing what I was supposed to be doing when I told her I was going to do it. It was just accountability coaching, and I missed it once. And so I have to go through my healthy VAD and figure out which ones I missed and then reengage, you know. But, you know, it is like that demon that, like, lurks in the corner. You know, if you let it lurk in the corner, then it's just always going to be there, and if it catches you in the wrong mood or whatever, then you can do something stupid, right? Yeah, you're right. And the biggest thing is, like, you can't think about yourself. You have to think about your, like, legacy, you know. And then, like, tomorrow's a new day or whatever, and I think that that's, like, the biggest thing is that, you know, those same emotions have not been present where, you know, that they were before, you know. And it's like, and you also kind of flirt with it, you know. Like, sometimes you like, you know, but then that's not like, you know, you just have to deal with it and you move on. And you realize that that's not my legacy, and that's where this ripple effect, like, hey, if I wasn't here, like, well, hey, if I wasn't here and it's because I did something really stupid, then what would happen to the people I know, right? And then, like, I have a friend who's lost almost her whole family to suicide, you know, because, like, one person did it and the other person did it and another person did it. And so, like, man, that's not the ripple effect you want to leave. And, you know, and then, you know, I can't save those. Like, some people do it because they're in pain or whatever, or they don't want to, you know. So you never know. But there's other people going through it, and the biggest thing is reaching out for help. I think it's key because then, like, and then that's why we're doing this, so we can share the story, right? And we could, and we'd be like, yeah, like, frickin' I know what it feels like. You don't have opportunity anymore, so frickin' get off your ass and go find opportunity. And, like, there's a frickin' platoon all the way out there, and there's these guys who want to share stories that are just like you, and guys and women, and, like, people have been abused and people have been whatever. Like, you're not alone, right? Statistically speaking, whatever you've gone through, other people have gone through. And if you think you're bad, like, look at that guy with no legs, like, making it work, right? Most of those people are in far worse condition than you are, and quit being a nanny, right? They're finding ways to still have hope. Right. They should, too. Yeah. And so, David, you were talking about, like, medication and stuff like that. I think the biggest thing, which is weird, was, like, engaging the VA made me feel weak, right? And I think, like, I actually had a friend say, you know, it's not making you weak, it's making you strong. Yeah. Because, like, it takes a strong person to realize that they're weak, you know, which is a weird way of thinking. No, but it's true, man. But then the other thing, on that same token, it's like, you know, I always tell people that there's two things that you can control, right? You can control if you go to church. You can control if you go to the gym. Like, everything else is just influencing you. Like, you can't control people, right? You can't control your family. You can't control any of your boss, your siblings, whatever. So, like, the biggest thing is if I'm going to the gym on a regular basis, I'm feeling good. Sure. If I'm going to church and I'm getting engaged in whether I believe or don't believe or whatever the spectrum of belief is, then that's good. Like, one of the things that's really helped me was there's legacy builders. Like, I'm Catholic, but legacy builder is kind of Christian, and it's just peer-to-peer faith-based counseling. And so I got teamed up with another veteran that helped out a lot. So we, like, talk, like, once a week. Man, thank you for sharing that, Phil. There's somebody out there that needs to hear that. Exactly. And it's going to be very timely when they hear it. Right. That's why I'm so grateful to Phil for sharing it with us, because you're right. Someone out there needs to hear this, and someone out there will hear this, and it will mean something to them. Something that you said, Phil, earlier is everyone is going through it, and that's a thought I have very often. I consider myself a compassionate person. I consider myself a humanitarian. And one of the saddest thoughts I can have, because I've had it before many times, is that there is someone out there right now who thinks they are utterly alone, and they couldn't be more wrong. Right, right. So that's part of why I do this with Jason. That's part of why I'm so grateful that I get to be on this podcast and speak to veterans like yourself. Right, right. And I'm always so humbled when I'm able to talk to individuals like you, Phil, for your vulnerability and sharing your struggles so openly and so bravely. So I really appreciate you being so open and honest with us. That's fine. I mean, that is what we're here for, right? Yeah. I'm really humbled by it. Yeah. So it's like we have to be real, right? Because if you're either fake, if you're just putting the facade up, then you are that Vietnam veteran who's never talked about anything and just has that wall up, and you're going to die with that wall up, right? Yeah. And like your kids, your grandkids are never going to hear your story. They're going to be deprived of it. You're never, ever going to heal because you won't let yourself heal for whatever reason. And that's just that form of self-punishment, right? And it doesn't need to be that way, right? I want to reinforce what Phil said about it takes strength to ask for help. I feel like I can pretty clearly articulate why it takes so much strength. It is very difficult to tell someone, especially a stranger or someone you don't know very well, here are my needs, here's where I'm falling short, can you help me? That is a very difficult thing to do. Yeah. You know what the crazy thing was, right? In the public sector, I had reached out to people like two or three times. And I said, hey, here's everything I got, right? Like suicidal, addiction, whatever, all this crap. And they're like, oh, we're going to put you on a wait list. And then part of it was suicidal. I'm like, okay, yeah, we're going to put you on a six-month wait list, right? Or I might have gone to the church. And then that failed a couple times, right? And those people weren't equipped. But then when I engaged in the VA, they're like, okay. Some of the things I had to wait for. But it was a lot better process. It's also like relatively free, right? And then so you're not paying for youth expensive counselors. Like it's all there. It's almost like when we were in the military, we were assigned like X amount of ammo, right? Sure. And then after your mission, you would take your ammo and you'd shoot up there. You'd shoot like hundreds of thousands of rounds like up in the air at nothing. To extend it. Because if you didn't use it, you lost it, right? And that's the same thing with the VA money. And that's like one of the reasons why I did engage in the VA. Because, like, if you don't use it, you lose it. Yeah. And I think I was the only veteran that my people knew that used up all his GI Bill and college funds. Because, you know, because I engaged the veterans. I engaged the VA. And, like, we got everything taken care of and paid. And I used up all my money down to the last dime. It's there for veterans to use. You're only hurting yourself if you don't ask for it. And the benefits are there. And, like, the VA system and the VA hospital has been, like, a mess. It wasn't like that dark dungeon. Like, you're like, oh, my God, the dark dungeon with dirty needles and, like, chief nurses that don't give a damn. And, like, all this, like, hocus pocus, right? Yeah. And it was a big, magnificent hospital with pharmacies that were quick and, like, stuff that came in my mail. And I get text messages. And it's very up to date. I really appreciate you sharing those stories. And I also really appreciate you having that story about the VA in particular. Because, as you just mentioned, the VA can be a place that people mistrust. Right. And I've spoken to several VA representatives lately. And they are striving to rebuild that trust. They know they've broken it with some communities and with veterans. They want to rebuild it. And they want to be there for the veteran community. I don't think I've ever had, like, a bad experience. And I can't say, you know, like, and I've hit it on multiple different angles. Because now I'm freaking curious, you know. And so I've never had a bad, like, a bad person or a bad experience. I'm really happy to hear that. Thank you, Phil. Well, Phil, before we sign off, I want to say a couple of things. I mean, first, thank you for coming to the show. Thank you for your service. Ethan and I always say and remind veterans, and I don't think they need to be reminded, but it takes a special human being to sign that blank check. It says, this is a blank check up until it could include my life, and here I am. So I really appreciate the fact that you did that for our country. And I appreciate that you shared this vulnerable story of getting help. And there are people right now that I know that are in my life, in my circle, who need help, who need support from other veterans, need to hear these stories. And you did it very eloquently, and I'm very grateful. And with that, we're going to go ahead and sign off of the Operation Inside podcast from the Mid-America Veterans Museum. Operation Insight is brought to you by the Mid-America Veterans Museum, where we believe every veteran has a story. If you agree and you enjoyed today's podcast, please click the Like button and leave us a comment. And don't forget to subscribe to our YouTube channel. This podcast is brought to you by the Mid-America Veterans Museum. If you agree and you enjoyed today's podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, and leave a review on whichever platform you listen. 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