Sergeant Sif Sifford

The Mid-America Veterans Museum is a nonprofit organization that relies on donations to share and preserve veterans' stories. The podcast provides historical and educational content. An interview with Sergeant William Sifford reveals his military journey, starting from joining the Army at 16, going through basic training at Fort Benning, and serving at Fort Knox, all while sharing personal stories about his family, upbringing, and love for motorcycles. The conversation also touches on his experiences in the military, including training, duties, and personal interests like biking and attending a Prince concert. The Mid-America Veterans Museum is a 501c3 nonprofit business. Your donations serve to further the museum's mission of sharing and preserving the stories of our veterans. To donate, visit mavm.org and click on Donate. The content covered in this podcast is for general informational, historical, and educational purposes only. Discussions about historical events, military service, personal experiences, or sensitive topics are presented for educational and archival purposes. The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed by the host and or guest do not necessarily reflect the official policy or endorsement of the Mid-America Veterans Museum. Neither the organization, host, director, nor the guest shall at any time be liable for the content covered, causing offense, distress, or any other reaction. ♪♪♪ Welcome to Operation Inside from the Mid-America Veterans Museum with your hosts, Jason Galvin and Sergeant Ethan Gross. Welcome back, family. We have a special guest in our studio tonight. Ethan, go ahead and kick us off. Thank you, Jason. Tonight we're joined by Sergeant William Sifford, or SIF as we like to call him. Siff served in the Army from June of 1984 until January of 1992. Siff, I want to make sure I'm getting this right. You're from Beaver Dam, Wisconsin. Yes, sir. Okay, okay. In the small amount of research I did about Beaver Dam, because I was focusing more on the military service, there's two interesting points about Beaver Dam. First, there was a World War II POW camp in Beaver Dam. Were you aware of that? You know more about it than I do. I left there as a little kid. Okay. Well, yes, Beaver Dam had a POW camp with about 300 Nazi soldiers there in 1944 before they were moved on and then before the war ended soon thereafter. And then Beaver Dam is also the hometown of Bobby Hatfield of the Righteous Brothers. So I had to mention that as a fan of Unchained Melody. You've lost that love and feeling. But enough of that, Siff. So tell us a little bit about your childhood. Born in Wisconsin, my dad was a carpenter with a national corporation. So we moved to Missouri, then Texas, and I ended up in California where I did all my schooling, graduated in 1984, and joined the military. Where in California was that? Sacramento. Sacramento. Okay. Was your father still doing the same type of work? Yeah, he went from that company to his own company and then working for somebody. Did you have any military family history? Both my uncles are retired Air Force pilots. Really? Did that have any influence on you? No. In fact, my dad was surprised when I told him I wanted to go in the Army because he knew I didn't like being told what to do. So what went into that decision then? I don't know if there was really a lot that went into it. I was involved with junior Air Force ROTC in high school. I was, like, one of the training officers, one of the upper echelon guys, and we had the recruiters that all came in. I talked to the Air Force recruiter. I talked to the Marine recruiter who just scared the crap out of me. She was the biggest, meanest woman I'd ever met in my life. Then the Army guy. Then a truck came in with the Army Cobra helicopter stuff, and I just leaned towards the military. In fact, I enlisted when I turned 16. My parents signed the paperwork, and 21 days after graduation, I was on my way to Fort Benning, Georgia. Oh, wow. Was there any hesitation on their part signing off for you as a 16-year-old? No, we had just a little bit of a conversation, and they signed it. Do you remember about that conversation? Yeah, that's what I'm interested to find out. Just, man, you're talking about a long time ago. I'm old. I think it was just that I was involved with Boy Scouts, Eagle Scout, all that stuff. Then with ROTC, I liked that type of environment. It seemed like the right fit. Yeah, it was the right fit. Were you guys big patriotic people? Yeah, we were. I mean, he's a country boy. We lived out there. Like I said, both his brothers and my uncles are veterans, Air Force pilots. Then I went in, and it just hit. Two of my three kids went in. So those were your father's brothers. Why didn't your father join? He tried to, but cutting wood one day with an ax, he cut off part of his finger, so they would not take him in. Really? Yeah. I didn't know that. It's strange the types of, whether it's ailments, whether it's like amputations, little things that you wouldn't think would affect joining the service do in some cases. Because it did not affect his shooting ability, dragging a deer out of the woods. It probably made him tougher. Well, that finger was tough when you're taking drive it into your wrist and you weren't behaving properly. I had a guy that had a pointer, half of a finger, man. He would pop you in the skull with it. You mentioned, Seth, jokingly, that your father knew that you didn't enjoy taking instructions very well. Where did that side of your personality come from? I think it was just the father-son dynamic. There was a few times we had heated discussions because I didn't like what I was saying. It's like you always want to do something for somebody else, but you don't want to do it at home. You'll go help your friend mow their yard, but you don't want to mow your own yard. Yeah, I've had similar experiences. You mentioned Fort Benning, so I'm going to take a guess. Did you go infantry? Yes. Okay. Tell us about OSUT. 13 weeks, hot, humid, being yelled at. Yeah, it was wonderful. Sounds like it. Yeah, I went in, and I was not in shape. So, of course, they got me into shape, and even then I wasn't really in great shape. But the running around, just the discipline and the regimented portion of it, we complain about it, but we also miss it. Sure. I hated it at that moment, but then afterward you get your units like, what's everybody doing? You're in the suck together, and that can be fun sometimes. Right. So, okay, funny enough, not to put you on the spot, so you enlist early at 16. You obviously don't leave until after high school, but you said you weren't in shape yet. Did you not prepare for joining the Army? No, I liked pizza. Nice. I like shopping. Well, before we actually left, my mom took me to, I think it was called Shakey's out in California, and I ate, I think it was one, maybe two large pizzas by myself. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. If I could go back and redo all that, I'd just do one. There you go. How long did it take for you to feel like you were kind of up to snuff at basic physically? It usually only takes a few weeks when you start noticing the change. Sure. I think, for me, the monkey bars, I can never do them, never. All of a sudden I did them one day, and it's like, okay, maybe there's something. Yeah, yeah. It's funny how it clicks physically like that. Okay, so you finished OSIP. What was the next place you went after OSIP? Was it your first duty station? To Fort Knox, Kentucky. Fort Knox, okay. The only infantry battalion on the entire post. So we got tasked with all the support missions. And with our vehicles, I was in a 901. It's basically a 113 with a hammer turret for a tow missile on top. Top speed is around 20, 25 miles. Yeah. So we had to go support the tankers and listen to these tanker captains tell us to charge a hill. They knew nothing. Did you enjoy that part of Kentucky? As a young man, single, no money and everything like that, I liked being in the military. Once I got a motorcycle, I was able to get out and run around a little bit more. It's a gorgeous country, but I love it more now when I'm able to go back, ride the country, taste the bourbons, that kind of thing. Sure, yeah. Okay, so this is funny. I'm glad you mentioned the motorcycle. And we'll get more into this later because that's a big part of what you do now with Ride to the Wall. When did you first start getting into biking? When I got to Fort Knox, borrowed money from my mom and bought a Honda Shadow 750. Oh, wow. Did not even know how to ride. So what was it that interested you about it? Freedom. They had the wind in my—well, I didn't have hair or a beard or anything. You know, people riding bikes. When I was a kid, we had mini bikes, little two-cylinder type things running around. Those were always fun. So I bought that, and I taught myself how to ride. And I just loved it from there. I actually got into a motorcycle accident one time and took my thumb off. And they took me to Louisville, and they put me back together and everything. That was while you were stationed at Fort Knox. Yeah, I just picked up my engagement rings from my first wife. Okay. I think that was a sign. I wasn't going to say anything. Dangerous man, getting married. Did you go down to Nashville at all? No, while I was there, no. I stayed right in the Louisville area. I went to Lexington once for a concert when I saw Prince. Really? Okay. Nice. Yeah, Prince and Sheila E. Okay. Wow, that brings it back. I'm also glad you mentioned that because I had forgotten to say this earlier. Prince is the thing that connected for me, funny enough. Jason and I saw SIF just yesterday. I want to give a shout-out to Re-Emerge. They had their inaugural golf tournament. It went really well. I'm excited for next year already. We got to see Dr. Julie there. Great to see her again and talk with her. She's a fantastic lady. But anyway, Jason and I were on the team together. He was nice enough. He and the Commerce Bank hosted the team. But Jason brought out the radio, and Prince was the first. It wasn't Purple Rain. It was something else. It was the first song that came out. It was the first song, but I don't remember what it was now. Anyway, it was a Prince song. It's funny enough that you saw Prince in concert there. I think I heard it playing when he either pulled up or pulled away. Might have been. I wish I could remember which song it was. It's another popular Prince one. But anyway, so we saw SIF at the golf tournament yesterday. It was good to see him. Okay, so Fort Knox, how long were you at Fort Knox? About a year and a half, and then I got reassigned to Schweinfurt, Germany. Okay. I was with the 1st and 30th Infantry, 3rd Infantry Division. Tell us about the kinds of things you did with the 3rd Infantry. Training. In an infantry unit, nine months out of the year you're training, either on post or we call it Area Mike, Area Mud, where we go training. It's muddy, nasty, dirty, and then you have to clean up everything. Did you guys do any joint operations? We did do some joint training. Just kind of a fun aspect. Okay, so this is interesting. What year was this that you were at Schweinfurt? Went over in 86. Okay, that's what I was kind of getting at. This was generally a peacetime in the 80s. Yes. It's between the Grenada invasion and Panama, which would be in 89. Right. So at this point, nothing's really cooking. Nope. What did you foresee your military career was going to look like when you joined? I had planned on being a lifer, retiring from the military. Really? Why was that your intention? Yeah, that's what I'm wondering too. I loved what we did. The mission, supporting people, taking care of people, protecting America. Yeah. Even though we were somewhere else, the concept and the idea of just doing what's right. Sure. Well, that's what you want to hear. That's like the perfect answer. Was that the first time you were international? Yes. Did it happen to open your eyes in any sense to a different world, so to speak? And if so, how? When I was there, it seemed like the older generation of the German population, they liked us. But the younger generation did not. And so there was a little bit of that conflict sometimes when you went down. We called it the strass of the street. If you went to a bar or something, sometimes there could be some conflict. I never got into any conflict, but I didn't always go out that much either. Gotcha. I'm glad you asked that question. It's a great question to ask because no one knew it at that time, but this is the tail end of the Cold War. Yeah, it's a lot of angst going on. A lot of angst. Yeah. And the wall's about to come down in a few years. Yeah. And like what Sif said about the generational divide between the Germans, like you said, the older people, they remembered World War II and the Allied forces and Americans coming in and saving the day. But those younger Germans, all they really knew was, like you said, this angst and just this heaviness in the air. Could you kind of feel that from the Cold War? There was always something depending on where you were at and the group of people you were with. If you were in a large group of American soldiers out, you were always being looked at. But if there was just a few of us, I never really felt any kind of disconnect, or I never had anybody show me any kind of disrespect either. Good. But I'm also a person who believes you respect everybody, whether they respect you or not. What was the next place you went after Schweinfurt? Schweinfurt, I got reassigned to Fort Hood, Texas. And this is where you are part of the 2nd Armored Division? Correct. Which was Patton's older unit. Yes. Do you know, I don't mean to put you on the spot, Sif, but do you know much about 2nd Armored Division's history as a unit? Not much that way. But what I do know is that we were the only Army unit that was authorized to wear our unit patch over our heart. And part of our uniform was our pistol bust at all times. Oh, cool. I did not know that. I didn't know it either. Why do you guys have that distinction amongst other units? Patton. That's the only thing. When I got there, they said, this is where it goes. I'm like, okay. And so we have a little bit of history about it. But, yeah, it was always right there. In fact, I probably have a few pictures maybe left over. I don't know. That's where we were. That's so interesting. It was very interesting. Patton had that vestige of kind of legacy still going. Exactly. Well, I didn't do much, but I just looked into it a little bit. I first thought when I had read your bio, Sif, I was like, oh, 2nd Armored, that's the one that Elvis was in. No, it was 3rd. So I got excited for no reason. But the 2nd Armored saw a lot of action in World War II. Patton was the commander there early in the war before he took over for the 3rd Army and obviously went on to be someone spoken about very highly in terms of military prowess. Tell us about your time with the 2nd Armored Division before your deployment. As typical, there's a lot of training. Being in the infantry, we do. We focus on our weapons, our skills, our speed to deploy out of the vehicles, all that type of stuff. And then just training, physical fitness. And we had a lot of fun, too. There was one time we were playing volleyball out front and it started raining. We just tore the yard up. We look over at the 1st Sergeant and stand there just staring. Ooh, 1st Sergeant's grasp. We're like, uh-oh. He goes, you're all going to fix that, right? Yes, Top. We turn around and we're like, went back to playing. But then we're out there with Ray Slater trying to get all the water off. Oh, my goodness. So it's Fort Hood. That's where 2nd Armored's headquartered. What rank had you achieved at this point? When I first got there, I was still a specialist. No, I'm sorry. I actually did transfer from Germany to Fort Hood with my corporal stripes. Then we got a phone call, and I just happened to answer the call at the desk and was advised we had a new sergeant, and it was me. How about that? What a way to find out. Speaking. Then I went to the 1st Sergeant. Hey, we got a new sergeant. He goes, who? Me. How did you enjoy, or if you enjoyed, that responsibility change? I liked it. I think I've always stepped up. If I see something that needs to be done, I'm going to take care of it. Sometimes my detriments get yelled at, told to stay in my own lane and stuff, and I like being able to lead people. I think I'll talk later about my job as a probation pro when I went to be a supervisor. I wanted to train the next people coming up so they did the job right and were safe about it and also helped our, what they call the offenders, our clients or whatever, succeed in life. How long was it that you had your stripes, that you were a sergeant, before you deployed? Oh, wow. I got the stripes in the summertime because they pinned me and poured bush beer on my stripes and made me stand out in the sun. As one does. Yes. That's why yesterday when somebody wanted to bush, I was like, I'm not doing that. That's great. Probably not very long, six months, maybe a year. Okay. Did you feel prepared as an NCO when you deployed? Yeah, I think I did. I mean, I always could have been better, and that's the way I always feel. I'm never good enough. There's always room for improvement. Sure. But as a corporal, I was kind of doing the same job anyways. Yeah. It's just I had another stripe and a little more money. Yeah. Yeah, infantry. I'm glad you mentioned that, Seth. Infantry treat corporals a lot differently than the other sectors of the Army. So I was in military intelligence. Is there such a thing as military intelligence? You're not the first to ask that. I'm shaking my head no. And there's evidence otherwise. But corporal, I mean, you know this, Seth. You lived it. Corporal is one of those ranks where depending on the unit that you're in, you could either be treated as an NCO or you're treated just like a super special specialist. So anyway, that's right. And then you're stuck from knowing what you guys did as specialists, and now you have to tell them not to do it now. Exactly. And they know what you did already. They got the dirt on you. Tell us, Ethan, a little bit more for the layperson that may not know what you just said. No, that's a good distinction to make. And, Seth, jump in whenever you want. So the rank structure in the Army, E1, E2, E3, those are all the private levels. And then E4 is where you begin to get a little bit more responsibility, and so that's specialist. There's a lateral rank in E4, which is corporal. Typically, you find corporals in infantry units. That's most often when someone will be laterally promoted to corporal from specialist. Corporal is different from specialist, like Seth alluded to, because you're already starting to get that taste of being an NCO. It's almost like an apprentice almost. That's a great way to put it. Yeah, very much like that. On-the-job training. Yeah, exactly. Okay, so six months or so after getting pinned sergeant, tell us about having that role as a sergeant. Tell us about your troops and being in that leadership position. Well, when we got the word that we're going to be deploying, of course there's all the getting ready, the gear, and everything like that, and we'd also moved from one barracks to another barracks. So we had that transition and getting our load out and all that. I focused on my guys. Another of mine said, hey, we're going to war. We may not be back. Let's get the job done we've got to do here and then have fun. An example is my E-7 wanted to have a barracks party that weekend so he could inspect things on Monday, and I told him no. Of course, that was a point of contention because we were leaving in a week or two, and it's like we need our downtime so we can get our heads straight. But the guys heard it. They made sure everything was straight for Monday. It was all good. Did you feel like the respect was there? I think so. I took care of them, and I never had any real problems. I was just about to say, usually if you take care of them, they're going to take care of you retroactively. Was there any – that's what I'm looking for. In the ramp-up time between that and then actually deploying, was there any conversations that you may have had to kind of – I don't know if console is the right word, but to mentally prepare these guys who may have never done something like this? I don't know. You hadn't either. But was there any conversations like, man, anything that would be different than a normal ramp-up conversation for training or anything like that? I don't really recall us having any direct conversation. We focused on training because if you train right and everything goes right, we're going to make it back home. I myself, as a sergeant, did have a conversation with my sergeant, and I was just talking to him about it. I was like, would it be bad or wrong of me to tell you that I was scared? And he said, I'd be worried if you weren't. And then we got wounded together. The only reason why I ask, I mean, is I asked my dad that exact question, like, are you afraid or are you scared? He said, only the dumb person wouldn't be scared. So I was just wondering because, you know, you never, as a lay person, as a non-military person myself, I'm not privy to anything like that kind of fear, you know what I mean? So all I can see is what I've seen in movies, and I was just wondering if people just kept their mind off of it by getting prepared or if they actually had conversations like that. Maybe they had them with each other and not you. I don't know. They may have. I'm also of the belief that if you put that thought or that word out to the universe, it may come back to you. Okay. So we do. We just drive on, focus on what we have to do, make sure everything is operating right, and then lean on each other when we need each other. I think that's the message we always hear, Ethan, is that people are just so focused on training. Just like Sue said, they train well, the right time, you know, the right way every time, and it's going to happen the right way when you're there. I'm glad you actually brought up that subject, Jason, because I had been listening. We talked about this earlier before we hit record. I had to listen to a podcast about the ramp up to Desert Shield and then Desert Storm. And something I hadn't really thought about, and I'm curious of your opinion on this, Desert Shield, Desert Storm, was the first big engagement since Vietnam. Right. And there had been a huge shift, from my understanding, in the little research I did. There had been a big shift, obviously, because conscription was ended in the 80s. So there was no more draftees. If you're in the military, it's because, in some respect, you want to be in the military. Or the judge told you you had to go to the military. Sure, yeah. Jail or military, okay, we're going. I volunteered. Yeah, yeah, no, no, I didn't have a doubt about that. But, Sif, I didn't pick up on this until just now. You had kept mentioning, we trained, we trained, we did training. That's the big distinction, from what I've captured anyway, in terms of the difference between the military of Vietnam and the military of Desert Storm. Specifically, yeah. Yeah. Training was, there was a huge emphasis on training. Because they were just getting people in Vietnam from the couch. And throwing them in. From the couch to the jungle man in a matter of, we heard, in a matter of weeks. Yes, exactly. I had mentioned Grenada earlier. I think that was 83. There had been little skirmishes that the military had been involved in, but nothing on the scale of Desert Storm. So, all of that to say this, Sif, did you feel as though this is, this is like we're back in America's heydays of the military being the best force in the world? I don't think anyone's ever doubted that. When we got over there and we saw the equipment, heard about the equipment they had, we had far better equipment anyway. My vehicle, our weapon, our main weapon system could reach out over a mile. Their tank had nothing on us. Yeah. And so we knew we were good. Yeah. And I knew my guys were good because all the training we did on my unit, my guys, my squad, we had the best times for everything. Yeah. Well, I mean, it shows, if you just look at the dates of Desert Storm, August of 90, and by February 28, 91, it was over. And the United States was victorious in liberating Kuwait from Saddam and the Iraqi forces. This is going to be an interesting topic, I think, for all three of us, especially for Jason because, and I'm really happy we have you on, Sif. I think Sif is actually, since I joined you, Jason, he's our first Desert Storm veteran. Yeah. And so. I think, I can't remember another one, but. I think Sif might, well, I know he's my first. Yeah. I didn't even, the pre-consideration. Yeah, we have some Desert Storm veterans in the museum, but I don't think we've interviewed them on the podcast yet. So we're happy to have you here for that reason and many other reasons. Anyway, I want to be respectful of how we talk about this because I know this is a conflict that has a complicated place in Jason's heart and Jason's life. So, Sif, tell us about your involvement with Desert Storm. Well, we got over there with all our vehicles, and, of course, there was a holding area until our equipment showed up, and we hit the desert, and even there we trained. Maneuvers, setting up observation posts, doing some nighttime patrols, making sure our vehicles were operational, finding out that in the desert it is cold at night. Yeah. And we're sitting in a foxhole, and my guy's in his sleeping bag because it's that cold. And then sometimes the humor comes across. He was writing a letter home, and he asked me, he goes, hey, Sarge, how do you spell decapitate? Right? And I'm thinking, what is he doing? And so I looked at him. I said C-U-T-O-F-F because I didn't know how to spell it at the time. Simplify it for him. Right. Yeah, make it easy. Nice. Yeah, but it was just when I went over because of what was going on in my life at that moment, I went over the mindset that I didn't care if I came back. Wow. But then my guys, well, one of my guys was a specialist. Basically told me I was being a mule and talked to me a little bit and broke me out of that little mind, that thought. I mean, I wasn't being reckless. I was still focused on training, digging the foxholes right, setting everything up. But it was like I didn't care about the end result. Yeah. But then we got rolling through, doing what we had to do, and just everything just fell into place. Yeah. Get up in the morning, pull your guard duty, brush your teeth, eat, and get to work. On purpose. Yeah. Well, for me, it was taking care of my guys. Yeah. I joke about it, but at the chow hall, we'd have all the hot foods and stuff, and I would be the last one to eat, and I'd always get all the extra MRE bread, peanut butter, and jelly, take back to my guys. Yeah. That or we'd go jump the neighbor berm or something, go to the Con-Ex and buy some of that Frito-Lay French onion dip. The only thing that can make the MREs besides hot sauce taste good. Yeah. The little Tabasco bottle. Yeah. And then the peanut butter was disgusting. My dad used to give me MREs all the time because he could get them pretty, you know. Yeah. And I've had more chicken all the king than I could ever desire again. Steph knows what I'm talking about. Oh, I'd rather have that than the ham and chicken loaf. So I don't want to just rush straight into February of 91 when you get wounded. Let's try to go step by step in terms of your involvement at Desert Storm. What are some memories you have about your involvement? Did you guys have any skirmishes? Did you get any small arms fire, any events like that before you were injured? No. I believe we were very fortunate that we were not involved in anything like that. Unlike the kids from nowadays and everything, we were lucky. Yeah. I do remember one time we were pulling observation and this truck came towards us. So myself and my gunner, we stopped him, and he's sitting in his vehicle and beside him he had what looked like a binocular case. And so I'm watching my guy, I watch his hands and everything, and all of a sudden he dropped his hand down. So we didn't know what it was, so we both just went into mode. Turned out it was binoculars and MPs came and got him and escorted him. So that's the only real thing other than the anti-personnel mine with me that was ever there. There was always that moment. There was the gas alert one night, so we had to put on all our gear and everything. And something that I had forgotten about until my shrink pulled it out of me many years ago is there's a procedure for unmasking where you've got to break the seal, take a breath, and to see if something happens. I had to talk one of my guys through that and didn't realize it got to me until I was talking to the shrink about it. I'm like, that boy could have died. But it turned out it was just a plane flying over leaking fuel. Come on Air Force, fix your stuff. The gas thing, I'm happy you mentioned that. That was a real fear during that conflict. Big time. Do you remember watching the news every night? That was the first war back on TV. Yes. Live. Yes. With the SCUD attacks. I'm not trying to interrupt here. No, no. And, I mean, having to get those alarms and having to get those clothes on the Kim Warfare, you're in the desert, you know. So that was, you could see people doing that. I mean, I can remember the reporters and the main news guys talking about it. I was glued to it, you know what I mean? I'm happy you mentioned it, Jason, because another name, which I was not even aware of this until I was doing some research, another name for Desert Storm, obviously Gulf War, first Gulf War, but also the video game war because of that exact thing. Right. There was so much more news coverage of that war than there really ever had been. That was the beginning of the 24-7 news cycle almost. Yes, exactly. You could see them in those types of networks. Well, I think when you were just talking about that, I mean, I was there living it. Right. You were catching it all secondhand. Right. Your dad was there, and you're, like, getting bits and pieces and stuff. Correct. So, yeah. And those alarms, right, you get alarms and the sirens and all that. So, sorry to interrupt. Go ahead. No, no, go ahead. I mean, your dad was there, so he deserves the respect and honor also. And as the family members, we're there, but they're going through it with us also. Yeah. I know my dad, I'll tell him a story about my dad when I got wounded and stuff. Oh, sure. Let's get into that. I want to hear about getting wounded and receiving the Purple Heart and the dad's story as well. Well, we just got done patrolling up to our area, and there were some bunkers there. So, myself and my lieutenant, we cleared this one bunker. I climbed down in it and started searching for stuff. And as we got done with our briefing, my sergeant and I were walking back, and all of a sudden I felt him push me from the left side, which spun me, and then there was an explosion in the right flashlight. We called a tow popper about the size of a tuna can just designed to incapacitate, because the theory is you incapacitate one soldier, you take two or three other out also, because they're there taking care of you. So, I got shrapnel in my ankle, calf, backside of my lower backside, and I remember hitting the ground on my stomach, and you may not believe me, but the first thing that went through my mind was, can I put the shifter of the motorcycle on the right side? I did. Then I punched the ground. I'm like, ooh, there might be another one. Stop. But before I could even roll over, two of the guys I'd been with for years were on me. One was combat medic trained, so he was there, and without hesitation they started taking care of me, cutting my boot off and trying to do the IV and all that stuff. Tell us the short story you had shared with us earlier about the lieutenant and the luckiness of the footwear he was having. My sergeant? Yeah, your sergeant. Yeah. Two tours in Vietnam, Purple Hearts. He had hit his 20 years, and he was pissed off because they would not let him leave. So on that day we were supposed to be wearing our regular leather leg boots, or he chose to wear his jungle boots, which had that steel shank in the bottom, which actually saved his feet. That's amazing. No bone injury, just some flesh. He had just shredded up a little bit of flesh and everything. Yeah, that's amazing. Was it concussive? No. Okay. No, it was just the hot metal flash. It was just hot, heavy pressure. No real hearing loss or anything like that because they were on talking, and our actual medic came over, took care of him first, and came over to stick me with an IV because they couldn't get one going on my left side, and nobody can hardly anymore wherever. And he just talked to me for a few minutes and decided I didn't need the IV and went back to work on my sergeant. I don't know how to ask this question, but was the area hot, or were you guys worried about getting shot at or anything like that while you were doing this? I don't think anybody thought about it. We hadn't taken any small-arm fire or anything. Saddam had purchased, I forget what, we had a briefing thousands and thousands of anti-personnel mines, and it would just fly over the helicopter and just throw them out randomly. Oh, okay. So it could have been one, there could have been more there, and we just got lucky. Everybody, our guys was like, I was down, they were on me. That was their mission at the moment. Okay. The only reason why I ask that question is a lot of the guys that we talk to now, they're from Afghanistan or Iraq, not only are they worried about these IEDs being blown up, but they're in the cross street or a street where they're getting shot at from both directions. I just didn't know what it looked like for you guys. What kind of operational area were you in? Wide open deserts. Okay. Yeah, so there could have been snipers and stuff out there, but we never took any fire. And like I said earlier, we were fortunate. We never had to actually engage. My vehicle, we had the opportunity to engage a tank, but unfortunately with our systems, too much bouncing around misaligns them, and we couldn't get the thermal site to realign with the main site. I got you. So we lost the fire mission, and all of a sudden some tanker opened up and just took it out. I wanted to make a quick mention. The story you said, Seth, about your first initial thought, there was another guest, Jason may remember, who recalled a buddy of his who lost a hand in combat. He had sort of a dirty first thought about losing a hand. I have no clue what you're talking about. But I mention that because it's just, to me, it's mind boggling. It just shows how good the training was. Seth's first thought wasn't, am I going to die? It was, how can I make my bike still work with this injury? I applaud you. I think that's such a cool story, Seth. It is. More morbid. Well, dark humor, as we know, is a huge part of it. Oh, absolutely. Tell us a story about your father that you're related to. When he was notified that I got wounded, all he was told was that I was involved in an explosion. That was it. No other details or anything. And when I got from the sandbox to Germany, then down to San Antonio, the Chamber of Commerce in San Antonio, they gave me a lot of stuff, some money to buy toiletries and things like that, tickets to go to all the events, airplane tickets for my dad to fly down. And I remember standing in the terminal, and my dad's walking down the aisle, and all I said, I said out loud, I said, I told you I wasn't blowing to hell. He started crying, I started crying. But then when my son got wounded, they made him call me to tell me that he got wounded. So they obviously learned from that system. The system was a lot better. The unknowing is the hardest part, too. The family members, I'll just speak from a family member perspective, when there's no details, your mind makes crap up. You know what I mean? And so sometimes the military, in my experience, will tell you no details, and sometimes they'll give you details that they think you want to hear until they have the right details. Yeah, exactly. Much like with Linda Ragsdale and her uncle. Exactly, exactly. This is what I wanted to make sure we mentioned this. What was the date that you were wounded? You asked me that when I got here. February 91, is that right? It was just a couple days after we crossed in, so 16, 17, right in that time frame. Okay. Before that occurred, what was sort of the general feeling, and I know this is a, you know, I'm not asking you to answer for the entire Army, but for your unit, what was sort of the general feeling for how Desert Storm was going to go? I never really had any thought on how it may go, just that we were going to do our job. Yeah. And that's what we did. I mean, there was times when we were just sitting there, we were bored to death, just watching the horizon going back and forth and everything. Of course, when the B-52s were going across, we'd put our night vision devices on and watch them bomb everything. It was like fireworks. Yeah. But I don't think any of us really thought about the end result. Sure. Other than the fact that we were going to accomplish the mission, get the job done. Yeah. But also, it was over so fast that we didn't have to sit there and think about what's going to happen tomorrow or next week or next month, like the kids from this one. Yeah. The ones going on so long, it's like they're there for so long. Yeah. And you sort of alluded to it earlier in terms of why it was such a fast and quick success. I mean, the technology and the manpower. Superiority. Superiority. There was just no comparison. Well, part of it also was that the Iraqi soldiers were just beat to death. They were just no morale. And that's why you got so many. They probably volunteered to be captured, right? They did. When we'd roll across, they would turn themselves in for an MRE and a bottle of water. How about that? Because they would have stale water and stale pita bread. Wow. And so they were just happy to come in. I think it was—you guys can educate me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the Iraq-Iran conflict was 87. And so the Iraqi soldiers had just come off of—I think that's when it ended. And they had been gone for a while, right? They had been gone for a while, I think almost six or seven years. Yeah, I believe so. So they were just beat to hell, like you said, Sif. And by all accounts, Saddam wasn't taking care of his troops. He definitely wasn't taking care of his people. So you're wounded in February of 1991. When was it that you returned to Texas and had that meeting with your father? How long was that process? It wasn't very long. That wounded was taken back to the—my Army unit, actually, we rolled in with the Marines. Our unit was being deactivated, so we went with them. So it was the Navy that did my surgeries and everything. Cool story there is I saw on the X-ray a piece of metal in my leg, and I asked the doc if I could have that. Did the surgery. They shipped me out to recovery, and later that night, this tall, lanky Navy guy walked up and said, Hey, Sarge, I forgot to give you this. He gave me that piece of metal. What did it look like? Was it jagged? Yes, it was about an inch and a half in size measurement. About a quarter inch, half inch wide, almost kind of like the state of Illinois, that type of shape, but nice and sharp and jagged. When I got back to Texas, I went to a Native American store and had a silver cap put on. I used to wear it. I used to mess with it all the time. Then it broke on me. I fixed it once. It broke again. When I was working on it, it re-emerged. I'm like, Nope, it's going in the drawer. There you go. Until it didn't get in the shadow. But then from the outside there, we went to 15th Fleet Hospital. We were there for about a day and a half, Germany for a few days, and then to San Antonio. Gotcha. So not a long period of time. I want to ask a question real quick. Sure. I can't remember if we were talking about this on the podcast or before we started going, but you mentioned, and hopefully I get this right. Correct me if I get anything wrong here, that you and your dad just had some push and pull, as a father son does. Yep. I wouldn't call that like angst too much, but kind of like an angst. It's that natural push and pull. In that moment when you and your dad meet each other in the airport after this, does that melt away? Do you become that young son counting on your father for everything, or is it more man to man? I like the way you phrased that. I think it's more man to man, because when I went home after basic training, my eyes were open to other stuff that was going on, so him and I got close. In fact, I sometimes tell the story that that was probably one of the first times in a long time that I'd actually told him I loved him. But, yeah, it was kind of like when I saw my son when he came back. It's like a different level. He's not my son no more. Well, not my kid. He's a young man. I think it was the same for my dad, because we got closer. Even after I moved up to St. Louis, I'd go down to southeast Missouri frequently to help him. He worked construction still until he passed. Yeah, we would go fishing and hang out. Yeah, it was a different level. Thanks for having me think about that. I love that question. It's a good question. I just want to make sure I understood correctly. It was after basic that you were able to say I love you to your father. Is that the change? Yeah. He was a very strict man. He was an awful alcoholic, but it was his way or you got to switch, and you had to go get it off the tree. Of course, I wasn't the perfect kid either. We pushed the boundaries. We did what we did. Actually, before he passed, I told him he should have whooped me more. So you had basic training to think for that bond strengthening. Yeah, because it took me out of that environment and it put me into a different one. So that way there wasn't no other vision was open, wasn't clouded or influenced by anything else. I was able to come back with a whole new perspective. Yeah. Before we get into you are very involved with veterans groups in the area, and you give of yourself a lot of your time. Before we get into that, both Jason and I really want to hear about your sons and their involvement in the military. Two of my three sons, my oldest one, he joined the Army, and he was in field artillery. And the reason I hesitated for a second was because he's actually transgender female now. Yeah, but she served, did her job, got out, and is up in Oregon now. My youngest son was an MP, so he's still my son. But he's the one that got wounded. He got wounded. He caught some shrapnel in the arm from a mortar attack or rocket attack one night, and that's when I learned about it. They had him call me first, and the lieutenant called, and he told me what was going on and everything. My middle son said, Nope, I'm not going. And I'm like, Okay. Where was it your son was? Where did he receive that injury? Somewhere in Afghanistan. Okay. When was he there? I don't remember dates. You can ask my wife. I don't remember dates and times, but she's got them all done. We worked together then. But his unit, they were actually training the Afghans. Oh, wow. So he may have told me where it was at, but I don't recall. That's okay. That's okay. Did he receive the Purple Heart? Yes. Okay, wow. That's amazing. I love that father-son dynamic where they both have a Purple Heart. It's just that generational thing. It's so incredible. Yeah. We've heard a couple of those, I think a couple. If you can put that into words, not just the award of the Purple Heart, but the pride that you have in your family and what that means to you to have that in common with your son. There's a lot of pride there that he chose to do that. With him, one of the first things I told him was do not join because I served. Do this because it's something you want to do. So he freely chose to do it. When he graduated basic, hugged him. I might even have threw a salute at him even though he was enlisted and everything like that. It's just that different level and everything. Then when he came home, he still lives in the area. Gave me my granddaughter, which if I could have got her before him. But, yeah, it's all good that way. Do you see yourself when you look at your son, do you see yourself mirrored with the way that your dad saw you when you came back? Or when he came, you know, at the airport. Do you know what I'm saying? It's a similar moment. Yeah, I get the question and it's kind of hard to express this. What I see in my son is sometimes him trying to get what he can get for doing the least amount of work. I think that's a lot of this younger generation. I mean, he's still putting in. He's a substitute teacher now and he loves it. So he's busting his butt for a long time. He just was kind of like living off his disability and everything. In fact, you're talking about us both having Purple Hearts. He found some organization and applied for a house and was given a house down just outside Mount Vernon, Missouri. And they presented him with the key of the house at the George Strait Concert in Kansas City. So we were there for that. And this retired general was up there going on and on and on. And turned around at a point where he thought I was still standing and said, Oh, and his father's a wounded warrior also. And the stadium just goes crazy and everything. And fortunately, I'm standing somewhere else. I didn't have to deal with anybody. But, yeah, it's just the service. I'm proud of his service. I'm proud of my older child that they chose to serve. But I'm also proud of my middle son because he chose not to, and I respect that. He's also doing things to help give back with his career, things he's doing and everything. He just actually moved back to Missouri just last month. I actually listened to your podcast as I was driving down to Texas to help him come back. Cool. Nice. And the only reason why I ask that is because I never got to experience that myself. So I'm just wondering how that felt, you know. I don't know if you can really. It's hard to put into words. I'm not asking you to do that. I know for me and my dad, or my dad and I, there was something different there. I think maybe I felt more of a grown-up when I was with him, I guess. And my son, he served. I treat him with respect that way. He's a grown-up. He's not my little boy anymore. So I don't try to treat him that way. I try to treat him like I would any other grown-up. This is a great correlation to make here. You've made it for me, sis. So I really appreciate you being open and honest about your children and the choices they've made in their service. But focusing on your son that received a Purple Heart, it sounds like he struggled with purpose after getting out. Would that be fair to say? I think it's very fair to say that because he couldn't find what he enjoyed to do. He had multiple jobs, and, yeah, it didn't satisfy him. Or one of the jobs he had, he would finish his tasks too soon, so he'd have to sit around and he'd get bored, so he'd be asking people to leave. And, of course, businesses don't like that type of thing. And then with his physical issues, like one job he was with the post office, but the walking and delivering mail just hurt his knee so bad, so he had to give that up. Do you think he felt misunderstood as a wounded warrior once he got back to the States? I don't think so. I think this younger generation, there's been a big turn for veteran support. We all know the story about the Vietnam veterans and stuff. I remember when I was in San Antonio at the recovery of the hospital, there was one of the guards walking around just standing there looking at me. And I'm like, can I help you? He said he identified himself as a Vietnam veteran. He thanked me because it was bringing new attention to them. Oh, wow. And I'm like, no, thank you for leading the way. There's many, many organizations now to help the post-9-11 soldiers, and they just have to go look for them if they're needing it. He keeps telling me about all these organizations. I go, I'm pre-9-11. I don't qualify, which sometimes irritates me. I'm okay. I'm good where I'm at. You exactly understood what I was trying to get at, and I didn't ask it very well. That's exactly what I'm kind of curious about and to get your opinion on, the shift and focus on veterans returning from combat. So if I'm hearing you correctly, well, we all know this, there's a huge shift in terms of Vietnam to the present day. But even Gulf War, first Gulf War to Iraq and Afghanistan, there was even a generational shift there. What do you attribute that to? Well, the last war was so long, and I think a lot of it is also what we were talking about earlier, the media, because I didn't get to watch Desert Storm on the news, but I got to watch this one on the news, and it was like 24-7. So people got more exposure to what the kids were going through. I think they got numb to it. At a point, yeah. You have to sometimes. That or you can turn the channel off, watch it every once in a while, because if you don't take care of yourself, you can get so deep into it, it can cause a lot of problems for yourself, especially if you've been there. You've heard the guys with the PTSD stuff, the war movies, the sounds, flashing lights and things like that. Anything can trigger it. But for the civilian who never lived it, getting it over and over and over and realizing it's not a movie, that you can't just rewind and the guy's alive again. Yeah. Another really good point, Seth. Since you mentioned PTSD, Seth, and I don't want to pry, but just whatever you're comfortable with, what has been your experience with PTSD? You know what? I don't mind talking about it now. I think we have to. I denied the possibility or even thought I had PTSD for 20-plus years. I attributed it to my last marriage, a lot of the problems and everything, anger. Not feeling validated? I always stayed busy so I wouldn't think. Because when I have downtime and my brain starts working, it messes me up. And it's not always just combat or something. Sometimes it's just something else. I get fixated on a thought and I go over and over, well, what if it went this way? What if it went that way? I went and saw my service officer because I was updating my marital status that I got a divorce. And we're sitting there talking and he asked me, have you ever been diagnosed with PTSD? I go, no. Because I Googled the symptoms. I had one or two of the ten or something like that. So now I'm okay. And so he gave me the name of a shrink, went and saw him, and after three or four sessions it's like he pulled stuff out of me I forgot about. And at that point when we filed the claim, got it recognized and realized, yes, I do, I've kind of like hit a little bit of a switch. I mean I've done some therapies for different things, sleep studies, saw shrink folks I couldn't sleep, anger management, stress, all that type of stuff. But just the realization that something's there made it a little bit easier. And I think part of the problem is, and I know it's in my head because I tell people this because I'm still a certified substance abuse counselor, that everybody reacts to things differently. So my experience and your experience from the same situation can be different. So just because I'm not this guy sitting out on the corner with long hair and a beard and shooting up or something, which I'm not trying to stereotype, but it doesn't mean that I'm not okay. Well, that's how the media sometimes portrays that. So I'm glad you mentioned that because PTSD doesn't have a face, right? Sometimes it's invisible. Oftentimes it's invisible. I have a patch on my vest when I ride. It's N-A-W-A-V. Not all wounds are visible, 22. One of the road guards from Runs the Wall, we had a conversation and he was almost one of the 22, so he had that patch designed. So I've got it on my vest that I wear because they're not. What saved that individual, if you know the story, from being part of that statistic? I don't think we really got into the details because when somebody, even myself, people ask, do you mind talking about it? I don't anymore because it is a subject we have to talk about. Mental health for the longest time was stereotyped that you're crazy, there's something wrong with you, you need to be locked up. Because we can talk about it now, it's become easier to talk about. And it's just being there, having the question. This is a great transition. I so appreciate your honesty in talking about this. This is a really enlightening conversation for both Jason and I. But this is a great transition. So I have probably a small list here comparatively to reality. First Vice Commander of Post 106, AMVETS, Assistant Trainer at Re-Emerge. Let me clarify that a little bit. I help training sometimes. When I've reread this today, it's like I'm not official or anything. I used to be a personal trainer. So there's been times where if Stefan has to go train with somebody, I'll step in or I'll coach a little bit here. But like Re-Emerge, we all kind of like, well, we coach and push each other. Sure, yeah, yeah. You can wear the title. Volunteering is volunteering. Absolutely, yeah. AMVETS Writer's Member. You've done Running for the Wall three times thus far, which, in fact, I think it was one of those trips that delayed us getting you on the podcast, which is not a bad thing. It's just kind of funny. You stay busy. Staff Member at St. Louis Lifewaters. You're on the Veterans Commission of O'Fallon with my uncle, Conan Stott. I want to give him a shout-out. Heroes Care Volunteer. And you worked in the Missouri Department of Corrections for 23 years. What impact did that have on you? I got into it because I was testing with several different law enforcement agencies, and a buddy of mine that I was in school with told me that probation and parole was hiring, and they were looking to hire a huge number of people. I'm like, okay, I'll apply, get a job, and then go do something else. Got the job. At that time, they were only hiring, like, the top 3% in the state. Fortunately, I was one of them, and I actually started in southeast Missouri. And initially I liked it because I felt like I had power and authority. I was a probation parole officer. I could issue warrants, send people to prison until I realized that, no, I don't send them to prison. I could issue warrants, though. And no weekends and got holidays off. About four months later, I ended up transferring up to St. Louis, and I got involved, worked downtown, and it's still a state agency. But a couple of the guys I worked with, I learned a lot from them about these offenders, these felons, they're people. And they made a mistake, and you've got to help them. And I loved doing that. I kept going on, and at one point I was a trainer. So for the St. Louis region, I was one of the trainers that taught self-defense and firearms. I loved that aspect of making it safer for the officers. But then I loved just working with people. It sounds like the NCO came out in you. That's what I was going to say. It did, but I learned once I got promoted that I could not be an NCO, not in this role because I tried it. And my boss goes, they just want you to be compassionate and understanding. And, of course, I said, so does my wife. My wife's just waking me up. He's got a good one, man. He's got some good ones. Yeah, well, I'm on my third one, and I like this one. But I had to relearn because in the military, we treated each other the same. Little different quirks here or there, but I had to learn that I had one that would cry at the drop of a hat, one who needed a lot of instructions, one who just wanted the task and for me to leave her alone to get it done. There was that point when I was being just a probation officer, I realized that I have to help people. And I didn't have to. I wanted to. And so it was fostering that type of relationship. I actually had one guy who I worked with enough that he trusted me that when I told him we were sitting there for like a half hour waiting for the cops to come and get him, and he asked me, do I have a warrant? I go, all right, I'm going to tell you the answer. Your options are you can leave or you can wait. Yes. And so he goes, well, can I go put the money in the meter so it doesn't get towed and my girlfriend can come get the car? Okay. So we walked out, put money in the meter, he smoked a cigarette, cops came, locked him up, and I saw him in court. I had one guy who was he was being taken away for a 15-year sentence. He stopped and looked at me and said, thanks for trying. Wow. It was like it was just different. Yeah. And then I got promoted and I was supervisor over the drug court program down in St. Louis City. So I saw a whole new dynamic of the interaction with people, and that's a phenomenal program, the treatment courts. The best thing they have going for them is there is dedicated funding and it's immediate sanctions and immediate rewards. But the officers, especially my mental health officer, the caring and compassion to get these people, guys and gals, to succeed and graduate. I was sitting there one time at a graduation listening to the stories and I reached up and kind of wiped my eye a little bit and my boss kind of elbowed me in the ribs. He's like, leave me alone. I'm having the moment. Yeah. How many veterans did you encounter as clients, so to speak? As a PO, only a couple. It wasn't until later on when they actually started focusing on veterans, trying to identify them. I think they started it. Actually, I think I was a supervisor in a field office when we actually started identifying anybody that came in. When I left St. Louis City Treatment Court, they had just started working on getting a veterans court going. St. Louis County has a veterans treatment court program. I actually supervise the officers in that program, and I am right now a mentor in that program. And it's incredible for the veterans. We have guys that one guy who was in the drug court portion and he was about to go to prison, and then they realized he was a veteran, transferred him over to us. He completed the program with no sanctions because he got with the like-minded people. And now that I'm gone, I don't know what they're doing to identify veterans. That's a good question. And also, with your experience in helping people write for their cases, were you ever able to get them from that spot there where he had no sanctions to now what do we do to help this guy get what he needs to survive on the outside as far as money or their case? I don't know how you describe it. Am I describing that right? Yeah, you are. Disability cases. Disability cases and things like that so they can get housing or whatever they need. So do they just stop at that one point, or is there a case officer or somebody that helps them move through that on the veteran side? Unfortunately, with probation and parole, when they're done, they're done. Back then, I wasn't involved like I am now. I didn't know about the service officer stuff other than mine. We had a few resources in the community, but there's not a lot of resources in the community for state pay. So unless you have private insurance or money, there was times when we were waiting four or five months to get somebody into treatment for substance abuse, and that's too late to get somebody in. Actually, one time, I told my officer, we issued a warrant on this kid who every weekend he was getting beat up for drugs, and so we locked him up to save his life. No other choice really in that case. No, because he had the whole family history. My dad was going to methadone treatment through the VA. Mom and brother were doing private clinic, which is expensive. I think at that time it was $12 a dose or something. We're talking a long time ago. But it's a vicious cycle. So trying to get them out of housing and employment and stuff, it's hard. My wife is a probation officer. We actually met when she got hired on at the office where I was at. She wasn't married, so there was nothing there until she got hired on in 09, I think, 06 or 09, and then it was in 19 when we actually got together. This is an interesting connection here. I'm sure you've already thought of it, Jason, but your stepfather deals in the same sort of realm as it was then. My stepdad is an Air Force veteran and Air Force Academy grad. He was an officer, and he really wanted to be with people, kind of like you did. He wanted to help people, but he did not want a desk job. He never wanted to be a lieutenant or anything like that because he wanted to be out in the streets helping people. So he was a police officer. I won't say where right now, but he was a police officer for 22 years, I believe, after getting out of the Air Force and then followed us here from a different state, my mom and my stepdad, and he's been working at the Juvenile Justice Center for four years now, and he is one of the investigators there now. The people that work with the juveniles, that's a different class of people. You'll give me an adult felon any day or a juvenile. Yeah, he loves helping people. One of the main reasons, I'll just tell on him a little bit, one of the main reasons why he didn't want to be a lieutenant, he didn't want anybody watching him overnight. He wanted to be on patrol without having to have someone looking over his shoulder 24-7. But no, he was a really good guy. Went into the Air Force to kind of satisfy his dad's desire to get a good education to the academy and all that, and just really didn't love the jobs that he did in the Air Force because they weren't doing, he was a desk guy. And so he said, I need to do something where I'm helping people, I'm doing something. That leads to a question I was going to ask you, Sif. Almost everything you're saying is I feel saturated with this overarching theme of servant leadership, and like Jason said, wanting to help people. So first of all, I applaud you for having that desire, and I think that's something that is a rare quality nowadays, unfortunately. So my question with that is, where did that quality of yours come from? You know what, I really don't know. It was just there. When I first got out of the service, while I was in college, I was a reserve police officer in southeast Missouri. I loved the patrolling, going out and doing all the cop stuff, and I enjoyed it. And I tested, like I said, to try to get into law enforcement municipalities and stuff, and probation and parole, once I opened my eyes and realized that people have problems, it just clicked. And I think some of it also was the people that I was working around. We are influenced by the people around us. So if you're out with people, some cops, and all they want to do is get loud, chase, shoot, and stuff like that, you're going to gravitate toward that. But the two guys I sat next to, actually it was three, one was our mental health officer, and jokingly I'm going to say this, but he kept tinfoil in his office in case one of his clients needed to fix his hat. He was that passionate in that field, and the other two guys would just sit and talk to the guys. And I remember two different occasions where I went off on a couple of my clients, and later that day I'm like, that was wrong. I actually called and apologized, and then we had a good relationship. If you treat people right, you talk to them no matter what environment or where you're at. We run into this warnings with the MC environment with our riders. You just treat people with respect. Well, that's a good transition. I first want to ask about AMVETS because that will lead to the biker community. Tell us about your involvement with AMVETS. American Veterans, I believe they are the first congressionally accredited service organization in the state, or in the country, I'm sorry. And I had heard about an all-you-can-eat breakfast at one of the posts down where I live, so I Googled them and researched them and figured, you know, I think I want to join. And I went down there, ate a whole bunch of food, and joined both the AMVETS and the riders at that moment. And it's just the mission, in a nutshell, our mission is to help veterans. I transferred out to 106 St. Peter's. We have a veteran in need fund. We have several chapters that have the same kind of fund, and it's where if we identify a veteran that needs assistance, we do what we can with the resources we have. We've gotten cars to pass inspections, tires, rehab. I actually, one of the guys that I've known for a long time but we reconnected with ReEmerge, I actually helped do some rehab work on his house because it was his mom's house, and then he had his own house, so we were working on it to try to help him out from under it. And cleaning up, a veteran up north in the Troy area, everything was overgrown, so they went up there and cleaned everything out. So it's the helping the veteran, whether it's financially or by doing things for them. Even just little things can go a long way. Well, we just did the Department of Missouri Amvet Riders, went down to Jefferson Barracks and had a barbecue and fed all the vets that are down there. And so burgers and sides and stuff. And at one point they took 18 different meals to the veterans that are non-ambulatory, took them their food, sat there and talked to them. And that's good stuff. Yeah, that's awesome to hear. So tell us about the backer community, and I really want to hear about your Run for the Wall experiences. Amvet Riders, we're apolitical. We're not an MC. We're not an MA, Motorcycle Association. We're just the riders, and we have certain things. We have to wear our patch stuff. But we describe ourselves as the rolling billboard for amvets. We should always be at a higher level, professionalism, things like that, out recruiting and talking to vets and just doing things like that. Every time we go out to do an event or something, there's program reporting that we send up to national amvets. And for, like, every mile, every hour and money that we send, they do some kind of conversion to it and turn it into an in-kind type service. And so, like, right now I think my chapter is at, for this year, is at like a million dollars of in-kind services to the veteran community. That's great. And so that helps with funding and benefits and things for veterans. Tell us about your Run for the Wall experiences. I think I would benefit. Maybe Jason knows more about it than I do, but I would benefit from kind of an explanation of what is Run for the Wall and what's the purpose of Run for the Wall. Yeah, I'm ignorant to it too, so go ahead. Okay, Run for the Wall, it was started from Vietnam. Vets came back, and they wanted to raise awareness for veterans. And so they decided to leave from California to ride to D.C. And now it's expanded to there's four routes. There's three routes that go to D.C. and one that comes back to Marcells, the sandbox. And it's to raise awareness for POW, MIA. They've also now, I think it was last year on the shirt stuff, they've started including KIAs and WIA, Wind In Action, Kill In Action. And they've expanded to all the wars, not just the Vietnam. Because I did a Google search earlier on how many people are still missing, and they're saying like 38,000 that may be recoverable still, not just from Vietnam but from all the wars as well. And so we do that as an awareness. So I ride to – I link up with a group of guys, and there's one lady that rides with us, she's awesome. She actually is a psychiatric nurse in one of the VAs in Kentucky. So we ride to California, and we take 10 days to cross. And every morning we get fed breakfast, lunch, and dinner by the community. Pretty much breakfast burritos and a lot of pulled pork sandwiches. But some of the communities we go through, they're poor. I mean, they don't have anything. They raise money all year long just to feed us, entertain us. We go through some areas where we have Native Americans doing songs and dances for us. In Gallup, New Mexico, Navajo Nation there, they actually invite us to their circle. And when they're doing their drums, they actually – we get to go through the ceremony with them, which is not allowed technically. Yeah, talk about an honor. But because we're honoring them and their people too, we're including that. It's incredible, but the people we see on the road, it's just breathtaking. The first year I did it, running down the highway doing about 65, 70 in a real tight formation. And when I mean tight, we ride staggered, but the bike directly in front of me is about a second. Maybe you might be able to get a motorcycle in there. And the overpass is filled. And you've got trucks, big flags and everything, and that's great. But then there's that mom, dad, and the kid on the side of the road just waving a small flag. And you're running down the road doing that, and all of a sudden you're wiping your eyes and everything. One of our leaders told me, he goes, if you don't cry at least once, there's something wrong with you. And we were standing at a ceremony in Wentzville, and I reach up and wipe my eye, and he just reached over and just punched me in the arm. Again? Again. But that year they gave me this dog tag, and on it was the name of a soldier or a service member who was on the wall. And my job was to take that dog tag to the wall, find him, say his name, and then leave it there. Along the way I picked up a couple more. There was a guy in the VA in Kentucky. He served popcorn to all the riders that came in for 32 years. So his name was Popcorn Willie. His brother's on the wall. And so I was given a bag of popcorn with his information. Found his name left on the wall. And then my buddies that I rode with, sharing their experience when they found their names, moving. I ended up getting a soft towel to keep in my pocket because I was tears running down my face, and I didn't care. Even for the longest time just telling the story, I'd start welling up and everything. And so last year when I did run, I actually went and looked for names myself. So I went to the website, and, like, I found one that he was born where I was raised in Sacramento, California. I found one who was born in Wisconsin in the same area where I was. I found one that was from the area my wife was from. But the one that hit me the most was I found a guy born in the area, well, he was from the area where I was born, who died the day I was born. Wow. And so laminate it, take it up to find the name, and leave it there. So I did the same thing last year. Last year I included a couple nurses. And it's just, it's that, but the people. I'll get back to the people on this side. Lining the road for miles. Yeah. The biggest one is Rennell, West Virginia. I've got to find the video. We rolled into that town. It was one of the original stops, and they weren't really scheduled to go through there. But the rest of the community were blocking, the cops themselves were blocking those dirty bikers from coming to the area. They get up there and they get stopped by the cops, and they're like, look guys, we're just trying to get through here. They're like, oh, no worries, follow us. Took them to the school, opened the school up, let them stay there, fed them, showers and everything. And so every year we do a daily donation thing, fundraisers, auctions, all kinds of stuff, to donate money to this school. That's so cool. I think this year, I can't remember exactly, I think it was close to $35,000 just from the ride itself. This ride, adopting this school, has computer labs, computers, I think an auditorium, gymnasium and stuff. But the best part is we pull into town and all these kids are standing out there cheering, USA, USA's, clapping, all kinds of stuff. We get off our bikes and they run up with these little red books wanting the heroes autographs. So we sign their books and we get pre-warning to take knick-knacks with us. One year I had stickers. I think last year I had patriotic pencils. My platoon leader the year before gave me some of those slap bracelets. So like, I'll sign your book if you take this. One of my platoon leaders, he actually had a shirt. He goes, I'll sign your book, but you sign my shirt. And it's just the younger generation, yeah, they're out there doing that. They're probably being guided by family and stuff, but it really feels good to see that. And it instills something in them that hopefully they'll carry into adulthood. And they'll remember that. Very much so. They'll remember that. It might be that thing that prompts the next hero to go represent this country. One of the beautiful things about Run for the Wall and the biker community, specifically the veteran biker community, from what I'm hearing you say, Sif, and from my understanding of it, is it's kind of the quintessential American story. All these little small towns, all these towns that, like you said, have seen hard economic times or maybe on the down and out economically, you're connecting all these little towns across the United States of America, and you're creating these symbiotic relationships. You guys are getting something out of it, and they're getting something out of it, and you're just creating these enormously beautiful relationships along the route. Jason has been very fortunate. I've been very fortunate. We've had multiple Vietnam veterans on the program, and it's always an incredible honor. You referenced it earlier. They were not welcomed home the right way, and there's lots of conflicted feelings about that war all across the political spectrum, no matter who you are. What feeling do you get standing at the Vietnam War Memorial Wall? Pride. That's about it. I mean, just standing there. Well, we'll talk about it. After running for the wall, we get in on Friday, and then I jump into AmVet rider mode because we have a ceremony at the cathedral, and then we lay a wreath at the apex. Part of my job is to move people out of the way and stuff, but I'll stand there and help people find names, and sometimes I'll hear their story. I don't know this guy, and I'm standing there bawling with him. The pride in what they did, and really now it's like how everybody's being recognized now. Sure. Yeah, it wasn't good back then, but now it's coming around, even congressionally when they pass the PACT Act, so these Vietnam veterans, it's more burn pit stuff. It's about time. Something's happening now, so hopefully they can keep going in the right direction. Every single person has a story that led up to that moment that caused them to be a name on that wall, and every single one of them is important, is meaningful, and I think that there's nothing political about it. It's about service, sacrifice, and being an American. We had a gentleman, Mr. Reps Hudson, and he's a fantastic individual, very eloquent in his speech, was able to describe things very plainly to us, and I loved hearing his take on the wall and the stories that he had. Sip, you reminded me of something that I haven't mentioned on any previous episodes yet. There was a display of the Wall that Heals, so the replica of the wall. This is at JB. I think it was back in July. Did you happen to go to the Wall that Heals display? It was fantastic, and it's essentially, I've described it before, as sort of a mock-up of the actual wall, but it's really incredible. I've seen a small version. The Woods and Terrace had one many years ago, so I've seen one now, but I never saw the real wall. I think it comes around every other year. One year, a portion of it was actually in our parking lot of the museum, but this time it was over at JB, and it was able to be fully expanded. It was really incredible. I worked as a volunteer on a Saturday morning shift, which was great. I talked to other guests about what time of day do you prefer to be at the Wall, and I've been lucky enough to be at the actual Wall in D.C. three or four times, and it's always an impactful moment. But early morning seems like one of those times where you just kind of get the feels, no matter what you do. But serving as a volunteer that Saturday morning towards the end of my shift, it actually spilled over past my shift when I could have left if I wanted to, and I was sitting on a bench. I was basically just there to make sure nobody didn't need assistance or anything like that. So I was sitting on a bench facing the wall that heals, and an older gentleman came up, and we exchanged a few words, and I told him I was volunteering and that kind of thing. He was a Vietnam veteran. He started telling me the story. He went on for probably about 20 minutes, and I couldn't get enough of the story. You could tell just by looking in his eyes he was right back to that moment. He had several different very interesting stories about seeing some combat while he was there. And I remember at the very end I almost felt kind of disrespectful, but I was like we need this guy's story. And so I had mentioned very respectfully and gently that if you'd ever be interested, I volunteer at the Mid-America Veterans Museum. We'd love to have you come in. And he sort of bristled at that, not in an unfair, unkind way, but I could tell he's just one of those guys that probably won't tell a story. I was in the right place at the right time. At the wall that heals. At the wall that heals. You were his person. Yeah. And the good thing is in today's society, I believe, we don't listen to people. I mean, even with grandparents and parents, you heard a story like you were just saying may never be repeated again. So you're part of that, and you share in that. And when you're talking about the healing, it kind of goes back to the run for the wall thing. One of our models is we ride for those who can't. I love that. And this is a healing ride for people who've been in combat, been to war, served. A buddy of mine, Dave, who lives down in Colorado, I think, actually in July, went and did a charity ride out there with nine different canyons in a day. He was incredible. He did not serve, but he's from New York, and he was there when those towers came down. And the first time he did the ride, he did not realize he needed the healing. Wow. And so it's just powerful. Yeah. It is very powerful. I want to make sure everything that you want us to cover, Sif, Jason, I always want to ensure if there's anything that we haven't covered that you want to, I want to give you the platform to say those things. Something else I want to add for run for the wall, what I respect about it, what I love about it, is one of the models is say their name. I forget the exact quote, but it's basically it's not bad to be lost to war, but it's bad to be forgotten. I'll send you the quote. It's in one of my e-mails. You might be on the e-mail in my reply, but I'll send it to you. But it's so you're not forgotten. So we say their names. That's why when we get to D.C., we find their name, we say their name. I, myself, when I'm running down the highway and I see that name placard on the side, sometimes I'll say it in my head. The other day I was going to a convention this last week, and I said a name out loud, and my buddy's like, who's that, what's going on? And I told him about it. It's just we say their names. Sure. Because they say you die twice, physically and when you're forgotten. So we say their names. Yeah. I want to add that we talked about earlier in the intro and stuff, and we talked about mental health and stuff about suicide. I am part of the Missouri Veterans Suicide Prevention Team, one of the newest instructors. And what we do is we provide free training to any organization. Even though we're called veterans, it's any organization. All of us trainers are either veterans or related to somebody who's served. And so our mission is to get it out there about suicide prevention. We train a program that's international. It's called QPR, Question, Persuade, Refer. And it's listening to what somebody's saying and how they say it to identify if they're at risk. And then it's asking the right question. There's the direct way, and there is a wrong way to ask a question which will shut somebody down. A quick example, and this is a true example, is, well, you're not planning on hurting yourself, are you? No, I'm not going to feel anything. And so getting that out there and then having some knowledge and resources to send them. 988, press 1 for veterans. St. Louis region has a behavioral health response, which when I was in probation or parole, we'd call them, and they'd actually come to our office and sit with somebody if they needed to or go to somebody's house if we were on the phone with a client. So it's getting that information out there because sometimes just a conversation can change somebody's mind, put them on a whole different path. That example you gave, I'm really happy that you've mentioned this, Sif. It's a really important topic. You're not planning to hurt yourself, are you? I can't think of a worse way to try to delve into that topic. Asking it in that way, and if I'm saying something wrong, Sif, correct me, but my feeling is asking it that way is an easy cop-out for the person. It's almost like they want that veteran who is hurt or is in need to say, no, no, I'm good. From what I've been trained and from what I understand, you can never fail by saying, how can I help you? How can I be here for you in this moment? Something that I think people have to recognize is when you're sitting with or in the presence of a veteran who is contemplating suicide, this will tie back into servant leadership, Sif, you need to recognize that that first step will probably have to be taken by you as the person who's there with them. You cannot put the onus or the responsibility on that person who is hurting. That's going to set them up for failure. In that moment, they need support. One of the things we also teach is that about the right question or not, is that if you can't ask the question, get somebody who can. Because if you do ask it the wrong way, you're not helping anybody. You get that other person over, and sometimes it could just be, hey, are you going to tell yourself? Depending on who it is and who you're talking to and everything, it's getting out there. But what you said was like, how can I help you? What you just did was told this person that he's not there alone. So part of what we try to do is give them hope. How can I help you? We are here for you. We can get through this. They're not alone. This has been a great education, Sif, and you've been so kind and generous with your time, and I have thoroughly enjoyed getting to meet you and hear your stories and hear about your experience. So it's been an incredible honor to have you here tonight. Thank you. I appreciate it. Thank you for sharing your dad with us. I appreciate it, Sif. You know, like I've said many, many times, and I think I say it every podcast, the reason why we do this, Ethan and I, is once these stories are gone, we can't get them back. Once the veteran is gone, we can't get these stories back. And so thank you for not only sharing your story, but including your kids and your dad. That's really, really important. I think families, you know, it's really hard to put into perspective what the family dynamic is in a lot of situations, but your family has done a lot of sacrificing, and we appreciate that. Thank you. Thank you for all you do. Something I'd like to add, I guess what kind of really got me invited, I think initially, is that fact that I'm a certified, nationally accredited service officer. So I help veterans file claims. I help survivors get pensions and things like that. City of O'Fallon is incredible. They allow me to sit in their veteran's office for free, get me any kind of supplies, anything I need and everything. And I see people on Mondays, Wednesday afternoons, and Friday mornings. They can call the office. I'm going to give you guys my card so you can. And we'll share that. Absolutely. I call for an appointment for veterans that are non-ambulatory, who cannot get out and about very easily. If they're in the area, I will go see them to file their claims. So my mission now is veterans. Your mission has always been to help. That's very clear to both of us. Absolutely. And you're doing a good job. I want you to hear that, man. You're doing a great job. Appreciate it. This county is better because of you. This city of O'Fallon is better because of you. And the state is better because of you. And we wouldn't be able to do – when I say we, I mean the state, city, county. We wouldn't be able to do this without people like you. And you are the reason why there's success. And thank you for all you do. I appreciate that. And I appreciate all my brothers and sisters out there that are on the same mission. And with that, we're going to go ahead and sign off of the Operation Insight podcast from the Mid-America Veterans Museum. Operation Insight is brought to you by the Mid-America Veterans Museum, where we believe every veteran has a story. If you agree and you enjoyed today's podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, and leave a review on whichever platform you listen. Don't forget, sharing this episode with friends and family is a great way to support the museum and our mission of sharing veterans' stories. Thank you for listening.