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Jillian on Love is featured in Apple Podcasts Live Well collection with a New Year subscription offer. Subscribers get ad-free listening and access to exclusive episodes with relationship guidance. Jay Shetty discusses his Audible original, Messy Love, coaching real couples through relationship challenges like communication breakdowns and trust issues. The series offers practical tools for repair and connection. Shetty highlights the courage of the couples sharing their raw and honest stories, emphasizing the importance of building foundational relationship skills. One couple, Justin and Gladys, exemplify the challenges of a young, passionate yet troubled relationship lacking a solid foundation. Shetty approaches coaching with compassion and patience, focusing on teaching essential communication and connection tools for success in relationships. Hey everybody, welcome back to Jillian on Love. I'm really excited to share that Jillian on Love is being featured in the Apple Podcasts Live Well collection and to celebrate, we're offering a special New Year subscription offer. For the month of January, you can start with a free 30-day trial when you subscribe on Apple Podcasts. As a subscriber, you'll get ad-free listening and access to exclusive Thursday episodes where I answer your questions and offer more personal guidance around the things you're actually navigating in your relationships. This is a limited time New Year offer and if you've been feeling curious about the subscriber episodes, this is a really easy, no pressure way to try them out. Just tap the Try Free button on Apple Podcasts. Now let's get into today's episode. Hey everyone, welcome back to Jillian on Love. Today's episode is a really special one. I'm sitting down with number one New York Times bestselling author, host of the On Purpose podcast, speaker and coach Jay Shetty. We talk about his new Audible original called Messy Love, Difficult Conversations for Deeper Connection. In this series, Jay works hands-on with real couples navigating very real relationship challenges from communication breakdowns and trust issues to mismatched values, resentment and the stories that we tell ourselves about love. We talk about what it's actually like to coach couples in the middle of that mess and crisis, the compassion it takes to hold space without rushing to fix anyone's problems and the practical communication tools Jay teaches that help couples move out of blame and into repair and connection. It's amazing. I think you are going to love this conversation. All 10 episodes of Messy Love came out January 22nd exclusively on Audible and I'm really excited for you to listen to this episode. Without further ado, Jay Shetty and me. Jay Shetty, welcome to the show. Hey Jillian, it's so good to see you. I know. It's so lovely to see you again and I'm very excited to have you here, so thank you for coming. I'm so grateful. I loved our conversation on my podcast and everyone else loved seeing it too and you had so many great insights and wisdom, so I'm really thankful to be on your platform. Well, you know, what can I say? The feeling is just very neutral and I'm particularly excited to talk to you today because you created something very unique. You created an Audible original called Messy Love where you worked with several different couples. You had about three sessions each with each couple and every couple came to the table with a different background, with a different, some of them were married, some of them had been married a long time. Everyone had their own thing and I have to applaud you, Jay, because that was very brave of you. That was very brave of you. Working with couples is not for the faint of heart. It's not. It's actually quite challenging and I listened to it and I was riveted and I'm just excited to talk to you about it today. What made you decide to do this? Because it does take courage to work with couples. I think it's its own unique challenge to work with couples versus working with one person. Yes, I'm so excited to share this Audible original with the world because the excitement came to me because when I wrote my last book, Eight Rules of Love, I was working with couples and I was working behind the scenes for years with couples. And then we had this light bulb moment where we thought, well, why not actually do this in real time because we have all these pieces of insight, we have all these tools, but why not let people into the room, the coaching room, to experience what it feels like to sit in the messiness, the chaos, the difficulty, as you mentioned it. And that's what this is really about. It's about difficult conversations for deeper connection. And it was vulnerable from my side to do it, but it was also so brave of our couples who came and poured their heart out, who truly didn't hold back. When you listen to this original, you'll hear people share really difficult truths. People are so honest. They're so transparent. And so I want to give the credit to our couples. Thank you for noticing my bravery, but I want to kind of reflect that back onto the amazing couples that came onto the show because I think anyone who listens, whether you're in a relationship, whether you just got out of a relationship, whether you've been in one for a long time, whether you just started dating, whether you're sick of the apps, I think there's so much to gain because we're hearing real stories from real people in real time. And so, yes, it was a big challenge for me. And I said yes to it because I believed this was the only way to really serve people. I think I've been sharing tools and ideas in much of my work for many years, but I thought for the first time ever, we could actually see those in practice and see how difficult it is to actually have people understand them, reflect them, practice them. But really, the credit goes to our couples who are so brave, so honest, so kind and generous with their real life. These were not actors, they're not pretending, they're not inventing, producing storylines. Everything you're hearing is real. And it's also the first time I heard it. So it's not like I heard a different version of it. And then it's been produced. You're hearing it just as I heard it. Yeah, I mean, well, it certainly is obvious. I mean, I appreciate you extending your gratitude to the couples who showed up because you're right, it does take a tremendous amount of courage and to be that vulnerable and to sort of, as one would say, air your dirty laundry out there into the world. And these are, and yes, and it was absolutely obvious that this was raw and real. And I think that's what makes it so riveting. I'd love to, there was one couple in particular that when I was listening to you, and when I was listening to the whole session, I thought, I thought to myself right away, I thought this is a very difficult case, extremely difficult. And it's Justin and Gladys. And there, I think there's going to be a lot of people who relate to them, because to me, and I really am so excited to hear your thoughts on this. It's such a common story where, and I don't know how old they are, but I got the feeling that they're quite young. I got the feeling that they're in their 20s. I don't know if that's true, but that was the sense that I got, that it's such a common story where two people who don't have the tools yet to actually be in a relationship and actually have quite a bit of trauma and stuff that they're both working through. And there's a ton of passion, but no foundation. And it's trying to build this relationship, a relationship on no foundation, because there is so much passion. And then, of course, she's pregnant and it forces them to actually speed through several stages of a relationship. It's like they had to skip over the building part, the trust part. And then they had to find themselves parenting. And they were kind of in a mess. Speaking of your title, Messy Love, I think this was a total mess. I want to get into it a little bit. What was your... When you were speaking with them, because as someone who's worked... You've worked with couples, you've worked with people for so long, as have I. And I think what's really interesting for people to see and hear is the challenges that we have as coaches, as therapists, as mentors, when we're presented with really challenging people and challenging relationships and having to pivot. So I'd love to hear a little bit of your experience with them. Absolutely. I think, I mean, you've kind of summarized effectively a lot of the beginning of this conversation with them. And I feel when I'm hearing about someone's experience, in my inexperienced state, in my earlier days, I would rush to try and solve a particular issue or a particular challenge. And then I think as you do this for a longer amount of time, you zoom out and you start to realize exactly as you said, wait a minute, here's a couple who's actually hasn't had the foundational time and training to build the skills to even be able to deal with this messy part in their relationship. And now as it's getting into messier stages, whether it's infidelity, whether it's, you know, terrible treatment of each other, whether it's a lack of understanding of each other's expectations, you notice you have two people who are almost still like children and need the patience and the compassion and the space to get an opportunity to rise to that position again. So for me, when I'm walking to these conversations, I'm walking in with as close to unlimited compassion as I can possibly have, because I recognize that our parents didn't teach us this, the schools didn't teach us this, our families didn't teach us this. And now you're having to learn it from the other person. And it's a big, big learning curve. So for me, Justin and Gladys were like, two people that by the way, when you meet them, sweetest people, really kind, wonderfully warm, such thoughtful people who are eager to learn. And at the same time carrying all this pain from their past. And I think that's so many of us. I think so many of us can relate to exactly that we're well intentioned, we're trying our best, but it feels like something's blocking us. And I think that's what people are going to get from this conversation is, how do you build foundational tools in communication, in connection, in listening, that actually set you up for success. And they were a younger couple. You're absolutely right when you were listening. And to me, that's why this conversation is going to make a difference for people, because it hits right at the core of what most of us are struggling with. I want to get into the three-part communication strategy that you taught them. I want to dig into that. But before I get there, one thing that I want to, a couple of things I want to point to is your compassion and your patience and your ability to hold space for the, I'm going to keep referring to this metaphor, this messiness, right, that is happening between two people is what I found to be, and what I find to be, so incredibly admirable. And I'm being very, very, very, very truthful with you. I always say it straight. And I think, and I find it so incredibly admirable because I know what it feels like to want to fix. And I also know what it feels like to sometimes grapple with my own biases and frustrations when working with people and you just want them to kind of see the light. And so bringing compassion and patience to whenever you're working with someone is critical in any relationship, whether it's a mentor relationship, whether it's a romantic relationship, whether it's a friendship. So I absolutely see that as a superpower and one that you have honed perfectly. So I really wanted to say that. And the second thing, you know, that really struck out, that struck me, and I think it's really important because I think it's so many of your listeners and the listeners of Messy Love are going to have to grapple with themselves internally because some people are going to be triggered because you, I use that word so almost ironically because it's such an overused word, but there are going to be people who see themselves in these stories, who see themselves in these people, and then they're going to personalize it and internalize it. And so I think it's important to note that there's so many themes that are inside of these stories, and particularly with Justin Gladys, which really struck me, was themes of infidelity, quote-unquote cheating, when you're taking a break and separation. Seems like you're the man, you should be the protector and protect me always. Seems like if you're, if you cheated on me, you know, what is cheating? Is it really infidelity when you're taking a break and the person won't even speak to you or sleep with you or anything like that? So dealing with these very challenging themes that are confronting and I think necessary for us to sort of be mindful in the way that we look at things that we're not looking at relationships through such a binary lens. And yeah, I'm curious to hear your thoughts because my thought was, I don't want to give too much away, but I think this will be an excellent teaser, which is, I don't believe that he cheated on her. But she has that narrative of always putting herself in the position of this is being done to me. And you handled that very delicately. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. Absolutely. Absolutely. To the compassion point that you raised, first of all, thank you. I deeply appreciate that. It's disconcerting for a lot of people to hear compassion because I think we're not used to it. And I have a favorite quote from Russell Barkley, where he said that the people who need the most love often ask for it in the most unloving ways. And I feel that a lot of what we hear in our relationships is a cry for help, but which sounds like a triggering statement, a complaint, a criticism, an accusation, exactly. And what's interesting to me about compassion is, I feel like compassion has been the missing link since the beginning of our lives, whether it was from our caretakers, whether it's from family members, whether it's from educators. And it's almost like when we first start to experience patience or compassion, we now almost realize that we probably could change if we were loved in this way. And so to me, I think it's such a key component of change is compassion, space and love, which isn't, I think a lot of people think when you hear the word compassion, it means it's a free for all and take your time and do what you want. And actually, compassion is highly strategic, thoughtful and true. And when I say strategic, what I mean by that is it has boundaries, it has parameters, it has rules, but it gives someone the space and time that they deserve and need rather than me projecting my timelines onto someone else. And I think as a coach or as a mentor, as a guide, the number one thing you have to do is not project your own timelines, beliefs and values onto other people. So I appreciate you raising that. Now, diving into the specific elements there, what I saw in Justin and Gladys is exactly what you laid out. I mean, I love that you're getting, I'm so happy to hear that you're seeing and feeling so much of what I was seeing and feeling in the room. And I can nerd out with you forever about it. Yeah, you're amazing. It just shows how good you are at what you do, which gives me a lot of reassurance and confidence even in my own work. But it was so evident to me that Gladys had expectations of Justin that were not invalid, but were not necessarily hers out of choice. They felt like they'd come from somewhere else. Maybe it'd come from a cultural expectation. Maybe it had come from previous experiences. Maybe it had come from somewhere in our past, which we started to explore. And I think that's what I found so fascinating is that so many of the expectations we have of our partners are not even our expectations. And it's so important to have someone who helps us pause and reflect and say, where did this come from? Where did you deduce that this was valuable or important or a value in your relationship? And where did you believe that it was truth? And I think you hear Gladys really questioning that for the first time in the series. At the same time, I think her belief—you just raised the point of whether it was cheating or whether it was not—what's so interesting about that is when a human labels something as something, we almost can't see past it. And so our labeling process in our mind and the story we tell ourselves is so critical to how we feel. And so we all know this. You don't experience what you experience. You experience the story you told yourself about the experience. And so in your story, if you've told yourself that you've been cheated on, you're now experiencing that as being cheated on, regardless of what it may or may not be. And so it's this really sensitive thing of having to accept the way someone's experiencing their story, and at the same time, open them up to the idea that there may be another way of seeing this story. And I think that that's a real sense—that's where you're talking about the triggering and the challenge. It's really, really sensitive where—and you can do this with yourself if you're listening or watching right now—sometimes you have to allow yourself to feel your story to realize it was just a story to then look at reality. And I think it's a healthier way of doing it rather than discarding a story or just throwing it away, because that can feel really invalidating and really insensitive. Does that make sense? Does that— Oh, absolutely. I think you're talking about—I think it's—you're talking about how the delicate balance of allowing someone to have their story, but also helping them to transition out of their story. It's like, how do we challenge someone? How do we challenge someone to think differently? And I think that that's—what's so amazing about this is that hopefully what's happening to the listener is that they then are challenging themselves or being challenged to look at things differently. And that even if they don't see themselves at all in one of these people, that what you're saying is—they can then apply it to their own lives. And that's what's incredibly important. I do think—I do think that, you know, perspective is often the key—most often the key to happiness is being able to see things through a different lens. And yes, and it's very delicate because, you know, I think they were incredibly self-aware and composed, but they're still dealing with very heightened emotions. Do you know where they are now? I don't know at this moment. I did receive messages from them as things went on because I also encouraged them to continue specifically with a therapist that I felt was accurate for their challenge and certain things that they were going through. So I was involved in steering them in the right direction. Yes. I didn't know about them at this exact moment, although now I feel like I want to check in again because it's been enough time where hopefully they've worked with a therapist that I recommended and the direction that I recommended. But what I knew is that they were still taking time apart. When I last checked in with them, they were still taking time apart. They really didn't feel that they were ready to move in together again and fully reconnect again. And actually, a lot of, you know, a lot of people at the time when we were going through the coaching and everyone was like, what do you think about that? I was like, I actually think that's what's needed in order to build these skills. It's what's needed to set the foundation. It's almost like if you rushed into being together, then maybe space is the only way you can heal to reconnect in the future. I think for so many people, you speed up in the beginning and you skip all the important steps and therefore you're now doing that work in the future by taking that time back separate again, when now you can rise above and actually think about whether you're meant to be together or whether you're ready to be together. And so I don't see that as a failure of the process or of their work. I see it as a healthy thing that they're both now aware enough to say, you know what? Maybe we did have to rush and skip that foundation step early on and maybe now is the time where I get to reinvest in that. Yeah, I agree with you a thousand percent. And I think that it raises a very interesting topic and question, which is, when is it appropriate to take time off and to take a quote unquote break? And when is it not? And the thing is, is that more often than not, I believe in working through the relationship in the relationship. But there are cases such as Justin and Gladys where I 100% agree that they really needed to take time apart. And there's an interesting, I think this is generational day. There's an interesting thing that's going on, which is, and I'm not talking about Justin and Gladys specifically per se, their story is what inspired this, which is there's this narrative right now of you go work on you and be the best self that you can be, best version of yourself. I'm going to go work on me and be the best version of myself. And separate to Justin and Gladys, because I do agree that sometimes things are just way too unhealthy and you did rush it and you do need some space in order for this to ever have a chance of working out. Because truly in their scenario, if they kept on going without your help and then without the help of a therapist, I'm a little nervous actually of what could actually happen between the two of them. I think that it got, you know, there are clearly signs that it got out of control. But also, and I should say just separate of them, what do you think about that? Because I do think there's this cultural thing of like, well, I'm just going to work on myself and be the best version of myself. And there's less of, well, no, you don't, you have to learn through relationship. And of course, we know it's a very hard decision to when you should take a break and when not. But I'm curious to know what you think about that and just what you're seeing generationally with this. That's such a great question and I'm so glad you raised it because I think you're spot on. So this idea that I have to be complete and you have to be complete for us to be complete is inaccurate. It's an unhealthy idea that I'm going to be perfect, you're going to be perfect, and then we can build something perfect together. The reality is I'm going to bring my imperfections, you're going to bring your imperfections. And because of that, the friction and tension, if it remains healthy, is going to allow for mutual growth, mutual reflection, and mutual expansion. I feel my wife, and I'm speaking for myself, I feel being married to my wife has made me better at love and made me better as a man and has made me better as a person than I ever could have been if I was just on my own. And that's coming from someone who I used to live as a monk, so I lived that life. I know what it feels like to truly commit to a life of being alone. And at that time, if you would have asked me, I would have said, oh, I think I understand love. And then when I got into a relationship, I realized, oh wait, I didn't have a clue. This was the practice ground. And the way I look at it is almost like, and I use this analogy to make the point, not because I think it's a great analogy, but you train to play a game all week. So an athlete will train five days a week, and then on Saturday or Sunday will be game day. But it's in the game you realize how valuable your training was. And that's almost what a relationship is like. When you're in a relationship, you realize how valuable all of the training you've done is. Whether you've actually gained tolerance, whether you've developed healthy communication, whether you've developed trust in yourself, whether you can control and regulate your emotions. It's only when you're in a relationship do you know any of that. When you're not in a relationship, you can think that you know how to regulate your emotions, but not until they're challenged. And so I think when it gets really unhealthy, toxic or abusive, of course, there's so many reasons why taking a break or separation or parting ways is more beneficial. But at the same time, I think what we're trying to do and what I'd like to remind people is you're only going to know how good you are at being in a relationship when you're in a relationship. And if space is given to increase skills and improve your ability to self-regulate and manage your emotions, that can all happen while you're still in a relationship. You don't need unlimited space and solitude to be able to develop that. Sometimes it's developed while being in connection with someone and checking in once a day or seeing them once a week. And so don't feel that if you're in a relationship, you've lost your opportunity to grow. Yes. I mean, I think a relationship, I think that was beautifully said, and I think a relationship is where we grow. I also really appreciated, Jay, that in your coaching and your guidance, you didn't turn to pop psychology diagnoses and didn't reduce dynamics to, oh, it's attachment style or it's this or it's that. I feel that you allowed for the nuance that is relationship, and that's what I'm really excited for people to see, that it's not just, you're not just going to, oh, you're anxious, you're avoidant, here's how to deal with it, and this is your trauma, and this is your trauma. It's like there is layer after layer after layer after layer, and all you can do in the three sessions is really zoom out and get into the story and some of the communication. This episode is sponsored by HelloFresh. Dinner truly isn't just about being good at cooking, it is about the mental load of figuring out what you want to eat, how you're going to prepare it every single night when you are already exhausted and have been working all day. And HelloFresh removes that turmoil completely. 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Free meals apply to discount on first box, new subscribers only, varies by plan. You shared something, it was a three-part, I believe, a three-step communication process with them. Do you mind sharing a little bit about that here? Yeah, absolutely. I designed that specifically for them. There's multiple variations of them, and these have existed across so many different coaching tools and therapy tools, and I kind of made that specific to the language I was noticing in the room with both Justin and Gladys. And again, Jillian, I have to point out, I really do appreciate you saying that piece about not jumping into pop psychology or relationship. And honestly, the reason I do it is just because I think humans are way more complex, and because I think situations are far more complex, and I don't like those words or that language being used as oversimplifying challenges and problems. I don't think it's... I think those concepts are fantastic, and we need them, and I'm a big fan of attachment theory or whatever it may be. I just think that when you're dealing with real-life stories and real-life humans, it can oversimplify what you said, the depth and nuance of what someone's actually experiencing. And it's not for me to say, hey, that's from this trauma specifically, and be really didactic about it, when really, I've always felt that the art of coaching is helping someone come to that conclusion themselves. And you'll see that in other couples in the Audible original, where you'll hear certain couples go, oh, I didn't realize that that's what I became like because of my parents. And I love that they're the ones identifying it and taking accountability and connecting the dots. It's not me doing the work for them. And I think that's a big thing for me, is don't do the work for the people in the room, because if you do the work, it's like your personal trainer saying to you, here, I'll just do the 10 push-ups for you today. And it's like, well, wait a minute, then I didn't build the muscle, I didn't develop the strength, I didn't walk out of here with anything. And so, to me, it's like, no, you've got to do your own push-ups, and we see people do that. Going into the point that you're mentioning now about the three-step communication, it's based on the rough idea that every single one of us speaks in accusations, speaks in criticism, or speaks in defense. If you think about the way we communicate with people in our life, especially romantically, it's usually an accusation. You always do this. You never do that. And also, they are extreme and finite. You never and you always. The second thing we hear is criticism. I wish you'd just stop doing this. You know, so-and-so's husband and partner, they never do this. Oh, you know what, I wish you could be like this person. There's always some sort of criticism that's condescending, and what does that do? It either intimidates, it irritates, it triggers, it creates the other person and puts them on the attack. And then the final is, you're defending yourself. Oh, no, no, I'm not like that. Why do you think I'm like that? You think my parents are like that? Is that what you think of me and my family? So now it's like everything's defensive. And when I think about, and everyone can relate to this, if anyone communicates to you with an accusation, criticism, or defense, where is love? Where is the space for love if you're being accused, criticized, or being attacked? There is no space for love. So we say we want to be in love, we say we want to connect, we say we want transparency, but then when we get that, it doesn't work. And so the three steps of communication were giving Gladys an opportunity to move away from accusation, move away from criticism, move away from being defensive, to then actually being able to verbalize how she feels, how things make her feel, how the experience she has. So now she's not representing Justin, she's not representing his experience, she's not projecting or predicting what he may be doing to her. She's truly saying, when you do this, this is how I feel, this is what I experience, and this is how I respond. This allows her to take control, it allows her to take accountability, it allows her to recognize that she is in charge of how she feels. And it allows Justin to receive this without feeling intimidated, triggered, or accused. Now we have an opportunity for genuine connection, and you'll hear it in the Audible original, there is practice required, there is moments where I'm constantly reminding. It's not like you say the thing and now it's perfect, it's like practicing and rehearsing for a play, it's doing drama, it's being a director of a movie, you're watching people learn the lines. And the reason why I think this is so important is if you actually learn the lines, you start to recognize how effectively you can communicate how you feel without anger, without pain, and without stress, that then doesn't get you to the goal. And I think this is the biggest thing about the communication piece that I shared. When I think about anything for a couple, the number one question I'm asking is, what is the goal here? If the goal is to annoy and irritate the other person, then please continue to go and accuse and criticize and defend yourself. But if the goal is we want to find a mutual space to figure out, do we want to rebuild a family for our daughter, which was their case? Is the goal that we actually want to reconnect and be together for the long term? Is the goal that we want to have a healthy relationship or a healthy marriage? If those are the goals, then we have to learn a new set of rules. And this is one that I thought was very important for Justin and Gladys. Yeah, and obviously very effective because it seemed to really help them. And yeah, so... I'm just shocked at how much it helped them. Sorry, Gladys. Yeah, are you? Yeah. I know. It's a pleasant shock when you're like, oh my God, that actually really worked. Yeah, it's great. Yeah, I was actually really pleasantly surprised because, you know, we often talk about a relationship that takes work. And it's like, so this is the work. This is basically the work. I mean, every couple has their own work to do, but learning how to communicate is often the work. So I thought that was really great. And yeah, when you were saying... When you were talking about the defense and the accusation, the criticism, my mind also went to family because I think this happens a lot in family, not so much in friendships. We're just so much more polite in our friendships. We really are. Why? Why do you think that is, Gilly? I'm intrigued, actually, to go off on a tangent with you, but why do you think that is? Why are we so much harsher with our family and our romantic relationships than our friends? Well, I think there's a couple of reasons. I think one is there's so many different parts to who we are. And our friends don't... Most of our friends... Maybe there's certain people who have friendships that are family and entrenched in their family system. Most of the time, our friends don't see the whiny, obnoxious, entitled, traumatized, all these things that we fall back into in our relationship. I'm the youngest child in my family. And so even though I'm a grown woman and a middle-aged woman, I am still the baby. So when I'm around family and when I'm around my sisters, you just kind of fall... It's not always, but sometimes you fall back into these roles because it's an identity. With your friendships, with my friendships, I don't have the identity of the youngest child. I have different identities. And then in romantic relationships, well, we're just so much more vulnerable. You know, in family relationships, we're comfortable and there's just all this history and all these... We talked earlier about stories and challenging the stories that we have. Well, everyone in our family has a story about the other person. And that's a story that is very hard to see past because sometimes you're not even... Because most of the time, your family members aren't even seeing you if you're friends. They're seeing you in other lights, right? And then in romantic relationships, I mean, this is the person you get naked with. This is the person you have sex with. This is the person who could leave you. And they'll leave you when they're not attracted to you anymore. Friends, you just don't have that. It's just not part of the game. Yeah, yeah. That's such a good analysis. What do you think? No, I love that. I think the two things that really resonated strongly from what you just said, which is what I see in all of the couples is we have deep stories of each other. And sometimes your partner is trying to break that story of themselves. And they don't feel they can because you've made up your mind about them. Yes. And that can limit them. Or the opposite. You want your partner to change their story about them. But your partner likes their story about them. And they don't want to change it. Whereas in our friendships, you're right, we don't really have a story of that person unless it's a lifelong friend or someone who's been our friend since childhood. It's very rare that you have that much data on them that has formed a really clear narrative. And the second thing you just said now is this person can leave us if they no longer like us. And family generally won't leave us even if they don't like us. And friends don't really have standards for liking us based on external things. It would have to be a huge fallout for them to walk away. Whereas in a romantic relationship, someone thinks you're lazy, someone doesn't find you attractive, someone thinks you're not pulling your weight, someone thinks you don't help out. And that could lead to the end of a relationship. And even if it's not an end physically, it could be an emotional end, even if they live together. And that can be heavy too. So I think you see that in the other couples that I had in the program as well, where people are scared of being alone, people are scared of being seen fully and completely. And you see that in Jeremy and Ryan's conversation on just really, for the first time, really opening up to each other about some things that they've never really verbalized. They've almost imagined and assumed these stories of each other, but they've never really been able to talk to each other about it. And there's relief, but then there's an eruption of other stuff to talk about. And so that's why we called it Messy Love, because we went back and forth on the title, and I was just really pushing for having an unclear, uncertain title, because I was just saying that that's the experience of love. The experience of love is not perfect. It's not solved. It's not fully formed. It's not complete. It's imperfect, troublesome, messy, and difficult. And even a relief can lead to an eruption of more things to talk about. And I think that's the reality of what people are struggling with, where it's like, I want you to be honest, but then I don't like your honesty. I want you to tell me the truth, but then I can't handle it. I want you to share all of yourself with me, but now I'm not actually ready for it. And that's kind of the reality of what love looks like. And that's what we're trying to deal with, is that messy middle. This episode is sponsored by Thrive Cosmetics. I believe that when it comes to makeup and cosmetics, it's often the small things that have the biggest impact, like, I don't know, putting on a lip gloss or changing up your eye makeup and making it a smoky eye. And Thrive Cosmetics is my go-to for amplifying my everyday look and just for just clean makeup. Every product is 100% vegan, cruelty-free, and made with clean, skin-loving ingredients that work with your skin, not against it. And by the way, with over $150 million in product and cash donations to over 600 giving partners, your purchase of Thrive Cosmetics directly fuels real impact. And that's important. It's beauty with purpose and with meaning. Upgrade your everyday eye with Brilliant Eye Brightener. It is absolutely brilliant. It's waterproof eyeshadow highlighter stick made to brighten and open your eyes. It is genius. I have it, and all my friends have it, and they have over 32 shades. You must get it. Seriously. Amplify your everyday. Go to thrivecosmetics.com slash Jillian for an exclusive offer of 20% off your first order. That's Thrive Cosmetics, C-A-U-S-E-M-E-T-I-C-S.com slash Jillian. Yeah, very well said. And I think that we are all just, you know, there's not a single person who doesn't fear in some way that they're not enough. And I think it's in romantic relationships, because of what we just discussed, that that fear of not being enough is most highlighted. And we do really messy, complicated, weird things when we don't feel like we are enough. And even if you are a confident person in several areas of your life, there's nothing other... A relationship is a place where our insecurities are really going to come to the surface. And I always find it so interesting, and I think part of the work is understanding, well, what is it that you do when you feel insecure in a relationship? What's your strategy? And you know, there was something that you said earlier, David, I want to return to about that it's incorrect and not a fact that it's two complete people who have to come together. Which I think what is upsetting to me about the current psychos is that it's really pushing that narrative. Now, I do think that we have to, you know, there's some people who have to really do some work on themselves before they can be in a relationship. But way more times than not, it's about learning how to love while in the relationship. What I have found is that in today's world in particular, people are so guarded. They're so self-protective that no one is willing to be vulnerable. And no one is willing to open up. Everything is about, let me protect myself from pain. Let me make sure that I'm not with the narcissist. Let me make sure I'm not with this person or that person. And I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. Because I think it's part of the reason why relationships, I think there's two main reasons why relationships fall apart. One is people are not meeting each other's needs because they don't understand what each other's needs are. And then number two, people are so guarded and so self-protective that there's just no vulnerability. So I'd love to hear your thoughts if you're seeing that too. And if you experience that in this project of yours, Messy Love. I think it's very human to learn a little about something and then use it somewhat immaturely. So when you first learn the vocabulary of healing, it's very easy to use it in every sentence, even though it may not be full and factual. And so we start labeling people as narcissists without really knowing whether that's the case or without seeking to understand something fully. We label it as something else because it saves us the headache of having to understand it. And so often as humans, we'll label something first, we'll name it first, we'll box it first because it allows us to not have to think about it any longer. And that's the brain's reasoning to save you time, space, effort and energy. So it has a survival mechanism to it. But that may not be the most enlightening, fulfilling, healing answer or path, which may require you to dive into the nuance, which may require you to dive into the depths of why something didn't work out, which may need you to take responsibility and may need you to go back to the beginning and say, well, that person showed me. I think this is what I see the most in relationships that fall apart. When people really do the work and reflect, they'll usually admit that person showed them exactly who they were. They kept trying to make that person someone else. And eventually they ran out of steam and so did that person. And most people say, yeah, now I look back and I think they were always that person. They were never organized. They were always lazy. They were never ambitious. They were never that kind. And what I've started to learn is that people are somewhat like the weather in different cities. So the weather in London is generally grey and gloomy. And sometimes the sun will come out. But when the sun is out, London is the most beautiful city in the world. But it's not often that the sun is out. And sometimes people are like that. And what we do is, because of that one sunny day, we keep holding on thinking one day London will be like LA. But it won't, because that person has general grey and gloom and sometimes they have a sunny day. And they're not willing to be a part of that. There's plenty of people who live in London. I used to live in London. I was born and raised there. It's a beautiful city. I love it even on a gloomy day. You can sit there and you can live there and you can allow for it, but not if you want it to be LA. It will never be LA. And then LA is the opposite. It's generally sunny every day. The weather is pretty perfect. And then there are a couple of months where you'll get a lot of gloom and vain and maybe you can just about tolerate it or some Angelenos actually love it because they kind of get a break from the sun and you get a bit of season. But there are some people who say, I hate LA because there's no seasons. I need four seasons. I need to feel the seasons. So people are like weather in a city. The problem is when you want the weather in your city to be like another city and you're not accepting it for what it is. And so for me, it's not really about just sitting there and going like, okay, when they're perfect and they do all the healing and I'm perfect and it's no, let me accept what the weather is like in this city if I plan on living here, I can't live in New York and hope that it's never going to get cold. It's going to be freezing for six months a year. And I've got to be okay with that if I'm going to live there. And so I think people are like that. And if we were able to be more accepting of what people were like, the way they showed us they were, then I think we'd have a better chance there. And that's really my goal in this whole exercise is not to change people or give people the hope that they can change their partner. My goal is to help them actually accept and understand who their partner is and whether they're willing to live with that. Because that's the reality I've seen is that people don't change as much as you want them to and you won't change as much as your partner wants you to. So it's better to learn to accept the parts of you that will never change than focus on the few parts of you that you want to change. These are what we're talking about. It's complex human relationships. And I love the metaphor of the weather. I am going to borrow it and I will give you 100% credit. It was a realization I had from, you know, one of the couples where you'll hear it where like, it's almost like you, the person sees these glimpses and they want the glimpses to be the consistent. And to me, that's like the glimpses you see in the weather where the consistent is the consistent. And this idea of people who ask me, can people change? Of course people can change. But changing takes decades. Changing takes massive pattern interruption, which could be a huge change in that person's life. And change requires personal accountability and the want and the desire and we all know how hard it is to change even when you want to change. Yes. Yes. So the person opposite you may not have the desire, may not have the want, may not have the energy and may not even believe they need to. So you could be waiting the rest of your life if that's what you're going to, you know, if that's what you think you're going to do. So yeah, sorry, sorry to interrupt you, but I just wanted to say where it came from. No, no, it's important. Absolutely important. I'm going to piggyback on that, which is that I don't believe when you're trying to change your partner, that's not love. And I, you know, one of the best advice I ever got years ago was when, when you're trying to figure out right fitness with a partner, you know, if someone, if someone you're dating and you're trying to figure out if they're the right person or you're looking for the right person or you're, you want a relationship, you're single is figure out what like three things that you absolutely need and tolerate the rest because you're, and, and, and, and the second part of that was, instead of figuring out just what you want, figure out what you're willing to live with, because you're always going to have to live with something that if you were to design your own utopia with your own perfect relationship, there's going to be things in your real life relationship that you wouldn't put in that utopia and, and you are hard to, yes, yes, you know, like they're going to have to live with certain things about you. And so I think that's incredibly important. And what a pattern that I see often, and I want to reference another case study here is in a moment is people, they, they fall in love with someone. And but then the very things that they fell in love with one year in five years and 10 years and whatever, those are things that start to annoy them. And it's so interesting, because if you want, if you're want someone who's very safe, then you know, and someone who's highly predictable, and someone who's highly reliable, which I think is all great things. There's also going to be another side to them that maybe, maybe, you know, not everyone is the same. That's incredibly anal, and type A, or this with finances or whatever it is. So you have to really be able to understand and accept the totality of who a person is. And I love the weather metaphor. Amanda and Ryan, is it pronounced it Ryan? Yeah. Yes, yes, yes. This was so interesting, because, and I could be wrong, my gut, so they together 10 years, they don't have kids. My gut feeling generationally is that they're kind of like early millennials, but I could be wrong, but I was getting like 30s. And and so generationally speaking, we're starting to see not so much rigidness about gender roles. So you'll have the artistic man who's not really the breadwinner, but he's more of like taking care of the home. And then you'll have the very ambitious workaholic woman who's actually bringing in bringing home more of the financial press providership. And yet, what's so interesting is that so we want to feel loved by our partner. And oftentimes, we will feel loved by our partner. But we also need to feel significant to them. We need to feel important to them. And love and significance is not necessarily the same thing. Like you can say, Oh, yeah, I know my partner loves me. But I don't know if I'm like actually a priority. I don't know if I'm actually appreciated. And every man who's in a relationship, if he is not, if he's comfortable, not being the one who makes the money, he still needs to feel like he is needed in some way and appreciated and that he's significant. And that was something that kept on sort of knocking on my on my mental space as I was going as I was listening to this, and I'd love to hear your thoughts and input. Absolutely. This one was extremely challenging. It was it was one of the hardest couples I've worked with. And it wasn't because of them, again, as people, all the people I met were wonderful humans. It was noticing the almost like the poetic friction of how these people have all been put together, where, as you said, you've got an individual who's extremely artistic and a homemaker, but also support act in every sense of the word. And then you've got the ambitious, creative business workaholic driven individual whose among which everything rests. And so there's value to both. And I think I think what's really interesting is that generationally, we all go through periods in society where the hierarchy of importance of a household shifts. And so maybe in our parents generation, survival was the most important thing, or at least for my parents, as immigrants in England, yes, survival was the most important thing where just having enough to survive was the number one priority in the household. And having food on the table and making sure that it was, you know, making sure that making sure that everything was provided for. And then you look at this couple where one of them believes that, that how can we have a life without money and safety? And the other one feels that, but then thinks, but how can I have a life without significance and support and balance? And so you've got these very different value systems operating. And when I look at humans, I try not to look at individuals, I try and look at the values, because really, that's where everything's going on. It's not just the personality, or it's not just like, oh, this person talks like that. Those things are so surface level and superficial. It's two very opposing value systems. My belief is if we had more money, we'd be happy and safe, because of my upbringing, and my competition with my family. And you'll hear about, Amanda talk about her relationship with her sisters and her parents' expectations. And then Ryan's is like, I always like the slow pace of life. This is who I am. I'm an artist. I don't have a schedule. I enjoy the sporadic nature and the spontaneous nature of my life. But I also recognize that Amanda does the work, but I want to feel significant. So I just want to point out these very opposing value systems. And when you're in that space, when you look at that compassionately, and you look at it realistically, my brain goes, they're both right. They're both right. There are people struggling to pay the bills and keep the lights on and survive right now. And what they need from their partner and everyone in their life is let's get going. Let's roll up our sleeves and let's figure this out. And at the same time, it's hard for your partner to feel like they are doing all of that. Ryan is trying to fill in all the gaps. He is trying to be useful and supportive and even run parts of the business. And at the same time, he's just feeling not worthy. He's just not feeling like he's valued for those things because they're not bringing in the big success or the big unlock. And you go, wait a minute. That's right, too. Like, I need that, too. And what you start to realize is that everything has this synchronistic and symbiotic relationship in that if he felt more valued, maybe he would be able to do more, and maybe it would create a beautiful loop. And at the same time, that requires him to reflect on why he feels devalued in his own self. And it requires her to also reflect on why, you know, I asked her this really, this is one of my favorite moments, which I can't wait for people to listen to. I asked them both, but specifically her, if you were financially free tomorrow, what would change in how you prioritize him? And her answer isn't clear. And so that, again, teaches you what someone's working with and who they are and where that drive and that extreme focus is coming from. It's coming from somewhere else beyond him even. And so I think what's interesting there is to deeply look at these value systems and really look at what they're working with as opposed to just the gender roles or the, you know, traditional expectations. There's a lot more there. This episode is sponsored by Indeed. Hiring isn't just about finding someone who is available to take the job. You need to find the right person, just like you would searching for a partner with the right background who can move your business forward. 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And so I think unconsciously, I mean, clearly she chose him, so she was drawn to, attracted to, magnetized to his free spirit and to the way that he roams the world. And he was drawn to her stability, her own passion, because they're both very passionate people, but it's just, it's just manifest differently. But they're both, the similarity between them is that she's incredibly passionate. I think it's less about the money for her and more about identity and just feeling so connected to something. And he, as an artist, is very passionate. So I think that's sort of like a common thing, but they go about it different ways. And I think they're both drawn to those qualities in each other. And I think that maybe, I don't know, but maybe along the way they kind of lost sight of what they actually felt in life. They kind of lost sight of what they actually fell in love with to begin with. Yes, absolutely. I love that you said that. And it resonates so strongly because I've talked about previously how that's kind of like me and my wife. Me and my wife are extremely opposite in who we are as people and personality. And she is spontaneity personified. My wife is like this ball of energy, spontaneous, fun, like super relaxed. And then I'm the opposite. I'm organized. I'm quite intense. I'm focused. I'm driven. Everything is military discipline. So we couldn't be more different. And what attracts me about my wife is the fact that she's not like me. And I'm drawn to that. And I have two choices. I either allow her to live in her full superpower and let it rub off on me. And she allows me to live in my superpower and let it rub off on her. Or we try to make the other person like us. And we get lost in that. And I think I said this to my wife the other day. I said, I'm just so grateful that I was able to take what was good from you into my life. And you were able to take what's good from me into your life without wanting to do that to each other. And it's almost that weird second part where it's like, if I want my partner to be like me, that destroys connection and love and appreciation. But if I appreciate the joy that my partner brings, it naturally rubs off onto me. Because I admire it. I appreciate it. I acknowledge it. I see it. I'm aware of it. And therefore, I become it. And so I think, to me, that's what I was hoping was a part of Amanda and Ryan's evolution in this, where they could learn to realize what they were attracted to in the first place and experience more of that of each other so that they would naturally evolve to him being more maybe organized and driven and her being more relaxed and carefree and artistic. And then that way, now we're living in appreciation, not expectation. Yes, yes. There's also another thing. And this is what I love. There's just so many things. One thing that I think a lot of women really struggle with is, you know, so we live in a society now where there's so many more women who are kicking ass and work and driven and entrepreneurs, more so than any other time in history. And I mean, clearly, obviously, right? And for women who are entrepreneurs, as she is, you know, she basically is, she owns her own business, right? She runs her own business. The transition that you have to go through energetically when you come home to then be, to take off entrepreneur hat, healer hat, fixer hat, let me take care of everyone hat, into loving partner hat. And I think that that's something that so many women who are entrepreneurs struggle with. And it's so important. It's so important to not always bring that intensity home. And so many women struggle with that. And as a result, we burn out. Actually, we burn out. And then we feel disconnected from our partners because we're not actually, because in order for us to feel connected, I'm not going to say sexual, I'm going to say erotic, you know, whatever that kind of means. That's a big, that's a big umbrella. We have to be relaxed. We can't be in work mode. And so sometimes I wonder with couples like Amanda and Ryan, if they're also disconnecting on a deeper level, maybe that includes in the bedroom, but just intimacy, you know, we'll just put intimacy as a huge umbrella where we can include the emotional and the physical and the psychological. And that was something that I saw in Amanda. Yeah, yeah. And it's such a, you know, there's already so much pressure when you're a woman in business and an entrepreneur as a woman, from what I've gained from, you know, interviewing and coaching so many people in this space, there's already so much more pressure that men are not thinking about or not aware of anyway. And then to be able to come home and then have that pressure as well is exhausting and, you know, excruciating to be able to be everything. And there isn't a right answer, because there isn't like a magic one solution to that problem, because you're ultimately following your inner voice and your inner heart on both. And I think what I can reflect upon that is that I think all of us as humans require beyond gender, the ability to have a home life and a work life. And there's something known as the third space theory, which is this idea that just 50 years ago, humans had three spaces. They had home, they had work, and they had church, temple or community. And the point of that third space was to reflect back on home and work and think about how you were in those spaces. So in the church, temple or community, you would reflect back at home and you'd say, you know what, I think I could have talked to my partner better. You'd reflect on work and think, you know what, I think I could have just been a bit kinder to my colleague. You know what, I think I should come home from work earlier so that I could spend more time with the family. You had this third space, which became a space of reflection and contemplation and improvement for the other two. But fast forward to today, there's no third space. And by the way, there's no second space because we work from home, we eat at home, we sleep at home, we entertain at home, we do everything at home. So when you talk about intimacy, we eat where we're meant to sleep, we sleep where we're meant to work, and we work where we're meant to eat. Everything happens in the same space. And so energetically, we no longer know how to take off the work outfit and put on the home outfit, regardless of gender or expectation or anything, because we don't even operate in three different spaces. So all of that to say that we're all dealing with that today, and there's such a need for all of us to go, I need to find that, and I don't love the word balance, because I think balance assumes equal proportion, and that is an unhealthy idea of balance. But equanimity is something we're all looking for, or peace, where when I'm at work, let me be at peace that I'm at work. And when I'm at home, let me be at peace that I'm at home. And let me find the mechanisms to allow me to warm up and cool down, just as I do in a workout, to prepare for that space. The commute home was the way you processed all of the work day, so that when you walked into the house, you didn't have to do that. But now you just log off Zoom, shut the computer and walk downstairs. And so it's like you don't have any processing time. So we have to be compassionate and empathetic to the fact that all of us are processing far more information in far less time and far less physical space. 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Exclusive for our listeners, new customers can enjoy 20% off their first order with code ONLOVE. Visit ParallelHealth.com. That's P-E-R-E-L-E-L-H-E-A-L-T-H dot com. Yes, that is so true. I mean, that was just an aha moment for me. Yeah, you have the walk home or the car ride home or the subway ride home to kind of decompress transition or you go to the gym, whatever it is, and you have that transition that's so important. Something that you said, I think it's incredibly important that balance does not mean equal. It doesn't mean 50-50. It means equanimity. I don't believe that a relationship is 50-50. And I think a lot of the younger generation is thinking, oh, I scratch your back, you scratch mine. We divide everything 50-50, which is certainly better than the old model of one person doing everything and the other person not doing anything. But I really believe that the best relationships are when people, there's no scorekeeping. Some days you're going to feel exhausted and overwhelmed and I'm going to have to put an 80 while you put in 20. But I trust, I trust that when I'm exhausted and overwhelmed, you'll put in the 80. And so, yeah, I think that's really important. I thought that was another thing that was sort of the undercurrent of Amanda and Ryan as well. Yeah, with Amanda and Ryan, it was helping them build things around their strengths and recognizing that there was, what happened is Amanda had, in the focus of work, which she has to have, she'd lost the ability to softly, sensitively communicate and connect with him. And in his desire to juggle all the requirements of work and home and try and be useful, he'd become useful but not significant. And what's so interesting about that is, significance is, you only feel significant if you also can communicate how you want to feel significant. But I feel like for a lot of men, telling their partner that I need you to tell me how important I am, feels like a massive hit to the ego and feels like a massive weakness and almost feels like, well, maybe I'm going to actually turn you off if I say that. It's too vulnerable. It's too vulnerable. And you're going to look at me like, I'm some kind of, you know, me and my, one of my, me and my guy, one of my guy friends, we always joke about how like, all we want is words of affirmation. And we give each other enough words of affirmation. And our wives are always joking as to like how we do it for each other so they don't need to. And then subtly underneath me and him are like, but all we want is words of affirmation. And it's just, it's so interesting because it's like, it's so hard. It was so hard for Ryan to just say like, I just need to know whether I still matter, right? And that is vulnerable. It's really hard. And it's hard because when men are that way, men feel that women are going to be turned off and less attracted. And they're going to feel, well, the man doesn't feel he's powerful and he doesn't feel confident. So it's like, what does the man do in that situation? So that was partly the challenge as well, that it's not only helping him admit his truth, it's what does someone do to process the truth after it's delivered? Because of our perceptions around male roles and male confidence and male ego and the pressure that men are under today as well, to be honest, vulnerable and transparent, but then be strong, powerful and confident. And those two things don't always go together. I think men don't have permission to be both because they seem contradictory in the way we've represented male strength and male power. Oh, I couldn't agree with you more. And this could be a two hour conversation in and of itself because I also think that the women who date men will say, there's no emotionally available man. I want an emotionally available man. And what they have to realize is that emotional availability, someone is emotionally available, regardless of how they identify. They're not just telling you how they feel about you. They're telling you how it feels to be them. And that you, as a woman, have to confront and wrestle with whatever conditioning and biases you have to be able to be safe for him to open up to you and not then question his masculinity in that moment. Because once you do that, he will wish it's done. He'll never do it again. He'll never open up again. And I love the way you put that. The idea that we want someone who's emotionally available to you, but that means you have to be able to emotionally get to know them and experience them. And I think that second part is not, that opportunity doesn't exist. And for most, for a lot of men, and I think that's scary for a lot of men. And then there are some men who just have never had the opportunity or developed the ability to be emotional because they've not been afforded that or they've not developed that as well. That surely does exist as well. But I think specifically to this, it's a scary place to be. And that's what I saw in Amanda and Ryan is that what Ryan was saying was scary and he really went there. And there were moments where Amanda really met him and I think was able to rise to the occasion. But I think it's going to require a lot more of that moving forward for both of us. Yes. Jay, as we start to wrap our conversation up, certainly not the last of our conversations, but I'd like to just give the platform to you. Is there anything that you really want to say, whether it's about messy love or something else? I know my audience is all ears. Oh, well, that means the world to me, Julian. Honestly, I love this conversation. I love talking to you about all of this. I can't wait for more of it. And we should do it offline too because I feel like I learned so much from you as I'm listening to you and your reflections on my work as well. I'm really proud of putting out Messy Love. It was hard work. It was from everyone's side in terms of really doing the work. And I think it's going to show people what the work actually looks like. And I think that's what I'm most proud of, is that I think all the things we've talked about today where these perceptions that are out there or the language that's out there or the vocabulary that's become famous or the trends that everyone talks about, you're going to get to see what that actually looks like. And so I encourage you, whether you're single and looking for love or whether you're in love and questioning it or whether you've just had your heart broken, I encourage you all to listen to Messy Love because I'm hoping that you'll see some of yourself in it. But more importantly, I hope you'll find tools for your future and so that your future love story is built on strong foundations. And so I'm excited to hear what people think, what people learn, what tools they end up using, how they listen to it, maybe with their partner. That would be really exciting. I'm excited. I'm putting something new. It's vulnerable. I'm putting something new into the world, something I've never done before publicly and taking private coaching and conversations and putting it out there. So it's vulnerable for me, but I'm hoping it's going to create a deeper connection with my community and audience as well. I have no doubt in my mind that it will. Where can people download Messy Love? Where can they get it? Yeah, you can go to Audible. Yeah. Yes, absolutely. It's on Audible. It's an Audible original. You can find it only on Audible. Go and listen to Messy Love. You can search Jay Shetty or Messy Love. Excited for you to listen to it. Thank you, Jay. Where else can people find you? I mean, most people know who you are, but where do you want to send people? Oh, I would just find me on socials, whether it's Instagram or TikTok or YouTube. It's at Jay Shetty everywhere. And Gillian, I can't wait to interview you again and have more of these conversations. Thank you for this. No, thank you. I really appreciate it. And I've loved Messy Love, and I think it's going to help a lot of people. And I think it's going to be very interesting for people. So thank you for putting it out in the world. And thank you for being here. Thank you. This is awesome. Thank you. Gillian on Love is a QCode production, executive produced by David Henning and Steve Wilson, produced and edited by Travis Howe, music by Will Tendi. Early birds always rise to the occasion for summer vacation planning, because early gets you closer to the action. So don't be late. Book your next vacation early on Vrbo and save over $530 on week-long stays. 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