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Is conciliation always possible? Prof. Shlomo Maital and R. Elisha Wolfin discuss the beautiful conciliation between Yosef and his brothers.
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Is conciliation always possible? Prof. Shlomo Maital and R. Elisha Wolfin discuss the beautiful conciliation between Yosef and his brothers.
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Is conciliation always possible? Prof. Shlomo Maital and R. Elisha Wolfin discuss the beautiful conciliation between Yosef and his brothers.
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Shalom, Shlomo and Elisha discuss the concept of reconciliation in the context of the current war and the story of Yehuda and Yosef in Parashat Vayigash. They explore the conditions necessary for true reconciliation, including seeing the good in the other and examining one's own role in the conflict. They acknowledge that reconciliation takes time and that sometimes war is necessary before peace can be achieved. They also discuss the idea of being a blessing, but disagree on the interpretation of this concept in Judaism and Islam. They debunk the myth that Jews lived comfortably under Islamic rule and that Hamas is a minority group. They highlight the significance of the word "Vayigash" and its meanings of conciliation, confer, and consecrate. They conclude by emphasizing the importance of approaching others and doing one's part in reconciliation efforts. Shalom Shlomo. Shalom Elisha. And Shalom to everyone who's listening. It's Tuesday when we're recording it as usual. That's our regular day. And we are after Chanukah. Parashat Vayigash. So Shlomo, what's on our table? So on our table Elisha is Parashat Vayigash. And the title of your drashah is The Secret of Reconciliation. You wrote this five years ago. And Elisha, it never ceases to amaze me. Two things. The first is the incredible relevance of the stories in the Torah that are 2,500 years old. Relevance to me personally, to our situation, to Israel, to the world. And the second thing is your ability to find those key relevance points. Because while the Torah is always relevant, sometimes you have to work a little hard in order to find it. And you always find it. You find things that are related to our everyday life and to the times. Reconciliation. Reconciliation. Elisha, we're fighting this war. We've been fighting the war for 75 days since October 7th. And it's time to begin thinking about the impossible. Which is how do we live in the future with those around us who really hate us? And frankly, some of us hate them as well. And it's quite understandable. Reconciliation. How do we do it? And here we have Vayigash, which comes along at exactly the right moment. And we have Yehuda and his brother Yosef reconciling in one of the most dramatic moments in the whole Torah. And your Dosha is titled, The Secret of Reconciliation. How do we do it? Yes. Yeah. Yes. How do we do it? Excuse me. Yeah. Yes. Let me begin by maybe reading the first sentence in your wonderful Dosha. True reconciliation between enemies. You wrote this five years ago. Good heavens. This is prophecy. True reconciliation between enemies is possible under two conditions at least. One, when we are able to look the other side directly in the eye and find something truly and authentically good in them without the effort or need to be polite. Boy, Elisha, this is a tough one with our enemies. It's a tough one. A tough one. Second, and this is sometimes forgotten, when we are able to look inwards and see both the good that is in us and the hidden source that sparked the hatred to begin with. We need to look outward to our enemies and see them, see their humanity, however hard that is, almost impossible. But we also need to look inside ourselves to deal with this burning hatred, and it's understandable, but it has to be dealt with. Those are the two conditions of reconciliation. We see that when Yehudah confronts his brother Yosef. Right. Right. And it's also okay to say that it takes time, that there isn't an instant solution here. We've been engaged in this particular war, as you said, for 75 days. I didn't realize that's a very kind of significant number. But we've been engaged in the war between Israel and its neighbors for 75 years, and we've been engaged in the war between the religions for 1,400 years. So, it's a long time, and this particular war right now, it may take time. It took 17 years for the brothers to have a reconciliation. 17 years for parashat Vayigash to be made possible. So much blood and so much pain was there before reconciliation was possible. So, it's important to say, before we even talk about how can we make reconciliation, what does it take, to say there are times, just as Ecclesiastes said, there's a time to fight and to go out to war and a time to make peace. And we've learned that sometimes the phase of war is essential. Sometimes humans need to suffer enough so that they are ready to make peace. Having said all that, I just came from a meeting right now, from a conversation, and the conversation was very much about this issue. And how do you reconcile when you look out towards your enemy and what you see there is incredible, incredible hatred towards you? How can you reconcile that? I don't have an answer to that question, but are we really able at this point to look out, look at the Hamas, and say that we see the beauty there, that we see a spark of life, that we see something that will make us want to move forward in the reconciliation? I have to admit, I can't see it right now. I have a suggestion. So both the Muslims and the Jews have a forefather, Abraham. He is our forefather. Abraham was commanded by God to be a blessing. We Jews and the Muslims, our brothers, are both commanded by a common ancestor to be a blessing to the world. And the truth is the Jews lived very well in Muslim nations for decades, for generations, for centuries. A group of evil people has come along and misinterpreted Islam, I believe, and we need to help them return to the fundamentals of Islam in which we truly are brothers with a common ancestor who are both trying to create a blessing for the world. So here is where I have to disagree. Unfortunately, I have to disagree. Painfully, I have to disagree. First and foremost, Jews did not live comfortably for generations in the Islamic world. They did have good periods, but they also had awful periods. If you look at the life of Maimonides, for example, Maimonides fled from Spain because of the Muslim persecution there. And then he fled to Morocco, but then he was persecuted there. There are even rumors, there are stories about him having to convert to Islam in order to survive. Some dispute that, some claim that that is accurate. He then moved, eventually settled in Egypt and there he was on edge his whole entire life. So to say that Jews lived comfortably in Islamic lands is a myth. It is simply a myth. True, on the most part it was better than in Europe. That is true. But it was certainly not, it is not true to say. We have to really debunk this myth that Jews had it good under Islamic rule. That is number one. Number two, being cousins, not exactly, well we could say brothers, Isaac and Ishmael, so we can say brothers. Being brothers, we still interpret the idea of being a blessing in a very, very different way. Now, I have the Quran here. I happen to have the Quran here translated into Hebrew because someone just gave it to me to mark something for them. All the places where Jews are depicted in the Quran. And basically the Quran, which is the source book of Islam, does not view Jews in a very favorable way at all in any shape or form. True. And that is the essence of the Islamic religion to this very day, unlike Judaism. Judaism does not, Halakha does not go according to Torah. Islamic Halakha does go to a great extent according to the Quran. So we have a really serious, serious problem here. And as we know, for Islam to be a blessing means to convert the world into Islam. It is not even a requirement in Judaism. It is not even a value in Judaism. On the contrary, if someone wants to become Jewish, first they are supposed to be told to go back home and reconsider. They are supposed to be turned away for three times. If they still come back, you say, okay, it looks like you are serious. There is going to be some serious study that you are going to have to go through. Islam wants to convert the entire world. So, even though we are brothers, it does not mean that there is a ground for reconciliation there. And finally, the last myth that I think we need to debunk is that indeed Hamas is a minority. If there were elections in the West Bank right now, Hamas will take over. So, I am not so sure how much of a minority they really are. And the Islamic Brotherhood in the elections in Egypt, when there were finally free elections in Egypt, after Mubarak was deposed, the Islamic Brotherhood was elected. So, are they truly a minority that is hijacked? The Islamic Brotherhood was the origin of Hamas. Hamas descended from that. Right, right, right. I forgot to mention that. And Erdogan is one of the biggest supporters of the Islamic Brotherhood. And Qatar is one of the biggest supporters of the Islamic Brotherhood. And Turkey's banks bankroll Hamas. They do their banking through Turkey. And there are billions and billions of dollars there that they receive. Alicia, let me try again. Okay. I accept what you said. Absolutely. Let me try again. And let's go back to the Parsha and the first word, Vayigash. And first a comment about English and Hebrew. We are talking in English, but we are referring to Hebrew. There are 180,000 words in English, Alicia, in the full Oxford dictionary. In the full Hebrew dictionary, there are 75,000. Hebrew is a very economical language. The 23rd Psalm, the Lord is my shepherd, Adonai Elohe Elohech Tzav. The 23rd Psalm has 125 words in English and 55 in Hebrew. Amazing. Yeah, saying the same thing. So, Vayigash. Vayigash is a good example. Vayigash has many meanings. And I managed to figure out that all the meanings can be translated into words in English beginning with C, beginning with your Parsha. Vayigash, conciliation, to conciliate. So Yehudah wants to conciliate with Yosef because there is a big problem that has to be solved. But he also, very delicately, because Yosef is the ruler of Egypt, he has to confront Yosef. He doesn't know yet he is Yosef. He has to confront him because he has got to solve this problem. He has got to free his little brother. He can't go back to his dad without it. And there is another meaning which is to confer. So, Vayigash, we approach people and we confer. We discuss with them. We see them. We see them. And we also see ourselves. And the last meaning is consecrate. Consecrate. We consecrate. Vayigash, the Geshet Elohim. So there are places in the Torah where we approach God. And all of this is in this one single word, Vayigash, Nikishu, the approachability. It's an amazing, amazing word. And it's all combined in how Yehudah delicately but forcefully approaches whom he finds out is his own brother, astonishingly. Right, right. Yes. So, it's possible to do Vayigash without an immediate reconciliation. Or in other words, we could do our share. We could do our share. I will put it this way. I think the question is, okay, given Vayigash, given the amazing reconciliation here, what can we take from this reconciliation? Given everything I've said, all the, I'm such an optimistic person and I don't like being pessimistic, but given all this pessimism that I've just laid down here, what can we do? So, first and foremost, I think this act of Vayigash, of reaching out, of coming near, coming forth, I think it's a movement that we should never abandon, meaning the opposite of it would be to back off, to retreat, to close yourself behind doors. I think this idea of constantly reaching out, this movement of always having your hand stretched out for peace, an outstretched arm, always. Even in times of war, while they're fighting, there are negotiations going on for a ceasefire and for hostage release, which I really hope will succeed. So, to be able to overcome our own anger and, mostly our anger, and at the same time, one hand fights, the other hand stretches its hand out, does the Vayigash, reaching out to make peace. And I think maybe that's why we have two hands. One hand to reach out and the other hand to fight if it doesn't work out. That's one thing. The second thing is never, ever, ever stop looking for the divine spark in the other. Right now, I can't see it. I cannot see it. But I'm going to continue looking for it. I'm going to fight to try and find the spark in the other side. Why? Because I know there is a spark there. I know there is a spark there. And God could not have created something without there being the spark of God in it. So, everything is imbued with God. So is the Hamas. So, being able to, even when we don't see it, to know that it's there, to know that it's there. And the third thing is to look inside of us, inside of ourselves, and recognize the hurt. We've really been hurt on October 7th in a way that no people have been, at least in the West, have suffered the way nothing close to this attack of October 7th did. It's not a coincidence that we equate it to the Holocaust and we equate it to the pogroms in Eastern Europe in the 19th century. So, I think we have to look inside of us and just really see the hurt and recognize the hurt and recognize that we cannot make peace or reconcile from a place of hurt. The place of hurt needs to be dealt with. We need to somehow heal that place. I'm also very much against the notion of revenge. Revenge, I recognize the feeling of revenge. I certainly have feelings of revenge every time I hear another story from October 7th. Another one of those heart-breaking stories from October 7th, I can feel the revenge bubbling up. And I know that nothing should ever, ever be done from a place of revenge. That's why Judaism has the notion of hayyad, hei yudalid, ha'shem yikom domo. Only God can take revenge. We cannot take revenge. So, there's no act of revenge in Jewish law, which is amazing, amazing. But I think we need to really recognize this feeling, this sense in our body that really wants revenge. And if we have the outstretched hand while we're fighting, an outstretched arm, if we know somewhere inside of us there is a spark of God in the other side, there has to be. And if we can really recognize our own hurt, then the door to reconciliation remains open, even if it's not possible right now. And it's okay if it's not possible right now. We shouldn't make reconciliation our new religion. In other words, we should strive towards reconciliation. But sometimes in order to make reconciliation, for example, the relationship between Yosef and his brothers would not have worked. The reconciliation would not have worked had it not been for Yosef's greatness. If Yosef would not have reached greatness, they would not have reconciled with him, neither would he have wanted to forgive them. So Sadat of Egypt was able to come and make peace with Israel because in their perception they won the Yom Kippur War, even though they lost bitterly. But in their perception they won the Yom Kippur War. So that enabled him to come and make peace with Egypt. So there's a dynamic of all these elements working in unison, and it takes time. Okay, so let me try to summarize in my words what you just said, and I absolutely agree. And let me argue, Elisha, that the Torah from 2,500 years ago is giving us Israelis a roadmap for the future. And it's all in this one word, Vayigash. So Vayigash, as I said, has many meanings. We find Vayigash in the Tanakh, the general of King David, Yoav. Yoav goes out to fight the Arameans, and it says Vayigash. So Vayigash is to confront, vigorously confront. We are confronting our enemies. We are showing our enemies, guys, you do not mess with Israelis. And this is a vital lesson, because until we establish this point, you do not mess with Israelis, we will never have peace. But if we do that effectively, maybe the other side will wake up. But while we are doing this, maybe a little after we are doing it, we have to conciliate and confer. And we are conferring now, we are negotiating over hostages. Unfortunately, one of the points you make in your drashah is that it's important to do this face-to-face. Yehuda conciliates, reconciles with Yosef face-to-face. We are negotiating with the Americans, with the Qataris, who are negotiating with Hamas, with Hamas political in Qatar and Hamas political with Hamas military in Gaza. Five steps in there. That's not face-to-face. So we need to confer face-to-face. And then, equally important, the third part of this roadmap, Elisha, I think is the other meaning of Vayigash, which is to consecrate, that is to approach God. We are Jews. We have values. Those values are very important to us in being a Jewish country. If we don't have those values, we are just another country. Those values have made us strong and united and creative and smart and a blessing to the world. And we have to always, always act in light of our Jewish values. And the hardest time to do that is during wartime when you are out in a battle, in a thick battle against a fierce enemy in the world's most densely populated area with civilians and with terrorists. But values, Jewish values, those three things together to confront vigorously, to conciliate and confer and to consecrate. Yes, yes. I would agree with that. And it's really beautiful that all these words all come from Vayigash. It's very, very beautiful. You know, there's one of Israel's, one of the famous poems that was written after the War of Independence called Magash HaKesif, the silver platter, platter, right, where two dead soldiers are standing before the nation and saying, we are the silver platter on which the state of Israel was handed over to you. And I think about that as, you know, the word Vayigash and the word Magash, they come from the same root. And I think we do need to recognize that, and it's hard for us. It's hard for us Jews, and I think it's even harder for diaspora Jews. For diaspora Jews who have not served in the army, most of them did not serve in the American army. Most of them did everything they could not to serve during the Vietnam War if they could avoid it. And here it's a given that you don't evade the draft. You go into the army. That's what you do. So we're diametrically opposed in our whole vision of the use of power, of force. And I think it's very difficult for our American brothers and sisters to grapple with what's going on in Gaza right now. And I think what's important in Vayigash, and it's also true in the story of Yaakov and Esav when they confronted each other. For Yaakov to be able to face Esav, he had to go out to war the night before when he battled, struggled with this mysterious man. In order to have a reconciliation with Esav, he had to first go out to this inner war to realize his own strength. You cannot make peace from a place of weakness. So there's going to be a moment, a time where we'll be able to really reach out and try to work on reconciliation. At this point, the sun in the battle between Yaakov and Esav, eventually the sun rose and that brought an end to that battle. The night was over. I have a feeling our night is not over yet. No. And it will be. In other words, there will be time to implement all these stages in Vayigash. It's important to have it out there as a road map, as you said, that the Torah has a road map for us. And in this road map, you cannot make peace with someone who is determined to destroy you. You simply cannot. And any attempt to make peace with someone who is determined and still determined to destroy you, who has not given up the Hamas charter that is there to destroy you, you can at best reach a temporary ceasefire which will work for both sides. But if we're talking about reconciliation, we cannot reconcile with a side that wants to destroy us. And we've never aimed at destroying the Palestinians. Never. It was never the agenda. And it certainly is, has been, and looks like in the foreseeable future, it will be the agenda of the Palestinians to destroy Israel. Agreed, Elisha. Elisha, perhaps we can, I'd like to read a passage to help our listeners, especially listeners abroad but also in Israel, to help them understand the spirit of Israelis and their thinking right now and the amazing heroism that we are seeing. So one of the people who appears on television often is Chaim Yelin. Chaim was the head of the council, the local council in Eshkol for years, a great leader. He's a member of Be'eri, Kibbutz Be'eri, and he returned to Be'eri the Wednesday before October 7th from Australia and was there during the terrible attack. Be'eri had 130 members killed and 28 were taken prisoner and hostage to Gaza. And anyone who doesn't understand what that means, 130, is it 130, correct? 130. That's 10% of the whole population of the Kibbutz. Kibbutz is like a family. I come from a Kibbutz. Kibbutz is a family. And when a tenth of your family is wiped out through an act of brutality, that is devastating. So let me read what Chaim Yelin writes about his feeling and his actions and what motivates him. At 6.31 on Saturday morning we heard the rockets like an explosion. I went outside and realized that when on a Saturday a missile was going toward Tel Aviv, it meant war. The question was what kind of war? Fifteen minutes later I started hearing gunshots and realized this was much more complex. I told the children and everyone to go into the safe room with the dogs. Five minutes later we received a message that there were terrorists in the Kibbutz. 250 terrorists occupied Be'eri and were killing people. What led you to volunteer, the interviewer asks Chaim Yelin. He says, we were enclosed in total darkness in the safe room, so it was quite unpleasant to be there. The soldiers told us to leave, but we went back in because the terrorists threw grenades at us and blew up the windows. Miraculously we were not hurt. Something happened to me. I suddenly saw the light and was very calm. I also calmed down the soldiers. Something inside of me lit up when I left the place alive. The light I saw made me aware that I had to start walking a path that even though I didn't know what it was or how, I just knew I had to help in whatever way I could. I received a phone call from one of the generals who told me that I needed to help the IDF's New Horizon, Ofek Hadash program to help restore the Gaza border communities. I volunteered and taught them what a community is. They consulted me on how to maintain the community and what to do. Everything I knew as the head of an authority. Let me just finish this. I don't know how to explain it, but there is a path and I follow it. I don't know where it will take me, but I follow it. I am not in politics under no circumstances in places that are not me, because politics destroys everyone so something else is needed. The other something is to change the language and consciousness and try to follow this path. That's why so many people get power from ideas. We paid a very high price. If we manage to fix and do something else, then here we are. It was something so shocking. Everything we dreamed about crashed. It brings a different consciousness in people besides economics. The shock is like an ache in the heart of each of us. You have to take the sabra, the tabar that we are. You have to peel off the shell and leave the insides. The land of Israel is my goal and I am not afraid of anything. This is also part of what happened that day. I don't need a salary or a title. I feel that I should be a ben adam, a person who gives his all to the state of Israel. I think he speaks for the rest of us, Elisha, very much. Right. In my humble opinion, it's a very healthy place to be in where he is right now. It's a place where conciliation is not yet possible. I think that's the takeaway from this podcast. We so much want reconciliation, but recognizing that the stage we're at is right now we are reconciling with ourselves. Reconciling with ourselves to have to go to war and kill other people. Unfortunately, civilians included, which they really try and prevent, but there are always civilian casualties. Being fully aware that there are times that you have to fight for your existence and not just for your existence. In order to be a blessing in the world, sometimes you have to fight in order to be able to be a blessing in the world. I think that's part of the Zionist idea, which I think for many American Jews who regard themselves as Zionist. But if you do not fully embrace this notion or accept this notion or understand this notion of having to fight for your self-preservation, for what's right, for your right to be a blessing, then you haven't fully embraced Zionism. Just the land of Israel is not enough. Knowing that the land of Israel requires of us a price that we have to pay and that being Jewish requires of us a price that we have to pay and that we cannot always march with the peaceniks. We cannot always, I wish we could afford to be only peaceful and loving human beings. How Jewishly sweet that would be. But reality teaches us that that is not living a full life. That is living a sheltered life in, excuse me, I'll be a bit abrasive here, but in La La Land. And that's why this is the holy land and not La La Land. Agreed, Alisha. I agree with every word. So how are we doing for time? We have to end. End. We have to end. Okay, so I want to first of all ask forgiveness if this hurts anyone. And if it does, let us know. Engage with us. Fight with us. And argue with us. And who knows, maybe time will come, hopefully sooner than we can even anticipate right now, in which we can reach out and really truly have a full reconciliation. Absolutely. Amen. So have a Shabbat Shalom and thank you all for listening. Shabbat Shalom everyone.
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