Good material pt 2 (1)

The speaker discusses a book and analyzes the main characters, Andy and Jen. They criticize Andy for his lack of self-awareness and immaturity, while praising Jen for her introspection. They highlight the difference between Andy's list of reasons why he's not good with Jen, which focuses on her flaws, and Jen's list, which delves into Andy's insecurities and selfishness. The speaker also mentions how Andy uses women for his own benefit and fails to take responsibility for his actions. They emphasize the importance of men being socially conscious and involved in conversations about social and feminist issues. long-term relationship. Sorry, I think we can run through that quickly again. Okay. And it also makes it an innate thing that men can't be socially conscious, especially about women's issues, which to me, just, I don't know, weaks and is also very exclusionary. Because, you know, if you're talking about social and feminist issues, then men have to be a part of the conversation, they have to be, like, conscious of what's going on. It's not a solo battle. It's true, but that being said, Andy is a perfect example of a man who naturally is falling into this dynamic because it's what he's been socialized to do and he has never had the personal motivation or the external stimulus to force him to consider a different mode of being. And I think two super clear examples of this are his emotionally irresponsible relationship with this woman a decade his junior, who he shows very little caring for or, like, respect towards, period, because he is ultimately using her, even though he likes to think of himself as too inept to be able to do that. And also, all the ways in which he failed his long-term partner, Jess, over the course of their relationship, which I know we will get into in more detail later. But I think, I do think it's important to talk about his breakup with Sophie before we go into that, and that really, because I think that's really where he shows exactly that, this kind of, like, lack of taking responsibility, weaponizing competence, and also almost, like, he obviously is using this relationship to feel younger, but part of that is also he is behaving as if he is not older and wiser than her. And so he's constantly pretending that her hyper-sexualizing herself for him is kind of normal and very cool, and that she's so much cooler than him, she's 23, that, you know, the nudes she sends him, like, are part of her art, and that's also very cool. Like, he's constantly kind of portraying himself as this kind of glumping little oaf who, like, I don't know, on the one hand can't quite believe his luck, but on the other hand is very clearly, like, manipulating this girly inter-falling in love with him and projecting her, like, you know, need for affection onto him, under the guise of, oh, well, I like older men. And he breaks up with her through a phone call in which she's obviously upset and he has so little regard for her emotions that it's honestly, like, disgusting. Absolutely. I mean, he, the way he uses this girl for free therapy, like, when she offers super casually... Yes. I think one of the worst things he does before they break up is he is missing Jen, so he takes her, Sophie, on a date that recreates his and Jen's first date, and it sounds torturous for her. He takes her to a karaoke bar and forces her to sing his and Jen's song, kind of re-enacting that. She's obviously uncomfortable, she obviously doesn't like being center of attention in a way that karaoke bar requires you to be, she doesn't know the song they're singing because it's from a different generation, and he's kind of pushing her to be this thing Again, yeah, he uses her for free therapy, so there's very much, like, she kind of knows what he's doing because he talks to her all the time about Jen, and she kind of accepts this role as his therapist because she's the cool girl who doesn't get attached, and, like, it's this thing where he's not allowed to stay past 2am. And it's all about, you know, almost like reading a clonopolitan how-to on how to keep men interested. Yeah, playing hard-to-get while being, like, while structuring an elaborate performance around them, like, the absolute prison of being the cool girl, streamed cool girl by Togolevo. Exactly. What was the thing you said about... Yeah, and as you said, the second part of where we really see, like, Andy's lack of, like, he is obsessed with himself, but he has such a lack of self-appraisal. Yeah, it's very, again, in that way. And the book begins and more or less ends with two lists. The first is Andy's list, reasons why I'm not good with Jen, and the second is Jen's list, where she has made a list of why she wants to break up with Andy. And I think we should go through these lists at a glance. So the reasons why I'm not good with Jen, from Andy's are all about why Jen is, like, a bad person. Well, not a bad person. Like, the first one is that she can't dance, that she's cringe, basically, that she, like, refuses to get to the airport a minute earlier than a 90-minute before a flight takes off, that she talks too much and too smugly about coming from a big family as if it were her decision to things like that. And he's kind of, like, undermining her personality and just, like, her rude dad, her weird mom. He's trying to convince himself that he's actually better off without this annoying person. Exactly. And it's all kind of undermining things that, well, one of them is one time, oh, one is only saw her cry a handful of times in nearly four years. At the end of the list, we've got only saw her cry a handful of times in nearly four years together, and it wasn't when we broke up. One time was when we were watching a Joni Mitchell documentary. But all the other reasons are kind of, like, her being, like, quite sweet and normal and having her little quirks. Jen's list. I mean, the end list, when you finally get to Jen's section at the end of the book, it is like a cool breath of air. It is, like, wading into, like, a moving stream. We should introduce that more, right? Jen's structure. Yes, the structure of the book is off the, like, pages and pages of Andy, you get to Jen's part. And sweet release it is when you do. You are immediately transported from the mind of a petulant man-child who's, like, well, you get transported from the mind of this petulant man-child into this thoughtful woman in her 30s who is capable of a complex inner dialogue that Andy is still working towards, shall we say. It's true. I mean, the maturity is obviously completely different. And obviously, this is a female author. Like, she's going to write female characters, and we're going to relate to them more and things like that. But reading about Andy as a woman, it really felt like I recognised so many ways. He was the everyman. To me, the way men have, like, portrayed themselves. And there's, like, I think she's really good at, like, portraying that double thing of, like, Andy never holds himself accountable. Like, Andy quite likes himself. Like, he likes the way he portrays himself. Like, he sees himself as a victim, but ultimately, like, he's never criticising himself. He's, like, an unrecognised genius. Other people don't appreciate Andy enough, they don't think he's special enough, and that's on them. But at the same time, you see why he's a bit of a nightmare. And I think, like, Golly Olsen does a really good job of showing that. But when you get to Jen's part, immediately it's just so much more introspective. And I think you do have, like, it's a different type of character analysis. I feel like, obviously, Andy's part is about 300 pages, and Jen's part is just, like, the last 50. So it's not an equal representation. But with Jen, I didn't come away from this book feeling like I knew her. I just felt like I knew what she'd been through. Whereas with Andy, I was like, oh, I know exactly the type of person you are. Yeah. And Jen's list for reasons why I'm not good with Andy is things like moody when his comedian friends succeed, which, as we've discussed, is kind of a sign, a bigger sign of his insecurities and of him, like, not being able to be happy for other people's successes, because he makes it all about him, like selfishness. And he used to say, that should be an album title, when he wasn't really working with people and didn't know what to say. Like, it's almost a similar vein as Andy's list, in terms of, like, this could just be a quirk. But immediately you have that extra level of the way that she's thought about why he's doing what he's doing. Yeah. I think that's the big difference, is where he's saying- For him to be able to understand his intentions and motivations versus his ability to understand her is just so disparate. I think another important one is, talks about women's issues in a chin-strokey, anti-academic way, which makes, which he thinks makes him a feminist ally, but actually is quite tone deaf, which resonates. Finds my family annoying, which I do as well, but it's his job as my partner to at least pretend he doesn't hate them. And he stops pretending after about a year. This to me, like, unless your family is, like, actively abusive, it's kind of crazy that your partner would not put on a nice face. Yeah, absolutely. I think this is also a big one. He will always consider his job to be more important than his job, because he thinks that his has artistic integrity and mine is corporate and meaningless. As you've mentioned, Jez works in insurance. I'm insurance. And she is making all of the money in their couple. And also, I think this is kind of a good metaphor for domestic labor, to be honest, and the way that often in traditional couples, the male genius will be able to do whatever because of all the work that the woman is putting in and taking care of the children and cooking and cleaning, et cetera, et cetera. I agree. There's a bullet point in the other one with the book, which is why she's doing all the heavy flipping through. Where is the Joni Mitchell bullet point? Because I think that is, like, a very important line to follow. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And as we mentioned, at one point, one of the reasons is that she cried at a Joni Mitchell documentary. This is Jez's point of view on the Joni Mitchell documentary. A few weeks later, I watched the Joni Mitchell documentary. I didn't really know her work. Andy was the one who wanted to watch it when we saw it was on TV one night. I enjoyed learning about her and her music. But the part of her story that left the biggest impression on me was when she talked about her long-term boyfriend, Graham Nash. He asked her to marry him. And while initially she said yes, she then had a change of heart. She described both her grandmothers, one who was a frustrated poet and musician, so frustrated that she kicked the kitchen door off the hinges. She talked about her other grandmother, who cried for the last time in her life as a teenager because she wanted a piano and was told she would never get one. She felt like she had the gene to live in a way both her grandmothers couldn't. Joni, then a woman in her 50s, said, As much as I loved and cared for Graham, I just thought, I'm going to end up like my grandmother, kicking the door off the hinges. You know what I mean? It's like, I better not. And it broke my heart. I cry so rarely. Andy couldn't understand what had moved me so much. I wasn't sure yet either. I mean, there we fucking go. Yeah. The kind of... well, I think the fact that they didn't talk about this as well kind of speaks about what was wrong with them as a couple, like the fact that she didn't want to communicate this to him, and the fact that he needed it explicitly communicated because he wasn't, like, picking up on some pretty obvious signals. Yeah. Well, the fact that he didn't even think to ask why she cried. Like, I do think there's a thing where, like, you are, you know, you decide the partner you put up with, and, like, in this situation, like, the fact that she didn't feel like, you know, explaining this to him, obviously, like, it's fine for her not to feel like explaining it to him. But I think a recurring thing in their relationship is also that she, like, isn't really that interested at this point in being understood by him, that she's kind of given up on that. And partly because, you know, he has the emotional range of a teaspoon. He has the curiosity about other people that is zero. Why are you raising your boyfriend? You know? It's a thing you can get tired of, for sure. So it's understandable why she has this kind of, like, burnout on trying to make this man understand her when he has not demonstrated in a meaningful capacity that he is interested in or capable of doing so. Exactly. I think another interesting point on the kind of parallels is that the Christmas present that Andy gets for her mother is, like, a karaoke machine, even though her mother hates karaoke, has never expressed any interest in karaoke. And the Christmas present that Jen gets from his mother is, like, super sweet, super well thought out. Like, she's really gone out of her way to, like, cultivate a relationship with this woman. And, again, it's really, like, another example of the way that Jen is always going out of her way to care about Andy and to, like, have emotional relationships with the people in his life and to, like, care about them. And he just is a little goofy guy. And it's all about, like, his personality and what he's bringing to the table rather than what he's bringing to the table for other people. And I think that that is, again, like, comes back to these male and female dynamics. And that sort of, like, individualistic self-centeredness of Andy's is echoed by his male friends, which is why they have difficulty emotionally connecting with each other, versus the relationship that Jen, Jess has with her friends. Jen or Jess, I don't remember. It's been a hot minute since we read the book. Jen and Jess, but it is Jen. Okay, Jen. Like, the fact that she is so open, so, like, emotionally literate, communicative, trained to be caring to others. Like, those are also things that have been socialized into her female friends. So, the way that they support each other is just diametrically, systematically opposed to their male partners. And the best example of this is when Andy's doing his big night out with the lads to, like, heal. He's called his, like, NHS pub trip out with the lads after the breakup. Well, he's having this, like, very tragic experience, just as having a small weekend with the girls where she's just talking about her feelings and getting a massage. Yeah. Yeah. And what's crazy is that Andy perceives this inequality in, like, treatment and relationship, and feels jealous and sad, but yet again takes no action to change things. Yes, absolutely. I think we're almost reaching the end. A nice thing to end on, I think, would be talking about children and fertility. And I would start by saying that one of the relationship dynamics that they have is that Jen isn't particularly interested in having children, and Andy is, but in a way that he kind of has this stay-at-home dad fantasy. Should I say stay-at-home dad? Where he is like, yeah, I could look after the children while you go and work your corporate job. But it's obvious throughout the book, when this comes up, that his idea of looking after the children is being a fun uncle. You know, like, he would still want to pursue his artistic career. Like, yes, he'd have a lot more spare time, but, you know, Jen would still end up doing 90% of the work. And this is something that, like, weighs on her quite heavily, because she finds out, she gets like a fertility check, I think, and she finds out that if she doesn't prove her age now, then she's quite likely not to be able to have children ever. Would you agree? Well, I don't think she ever tells Andy that she's had this realization about her fertility. She's just been like, you know, hesitant about having children, because she genuinely doesn't want to have children with anybody. It's not just about Andy, but he obviously takes this very personally. And an example of how Jess knows that he is not going to be the stay-at-home dad she deserves is when they're looking after, and this shows up in her, like, final list to Andy as well, is that when they were looking after a friend's cat, his friend's cat, she was the one who ended up taking care of it. And she was like, well, how can I expect any different behavior with a human child? And I agree. Exactly. But also that Andy kind of thinks that they're doing it 50-50, it's just she's feeding it, she's changing the litter, she's getting up when it's like now at the door, and he's just stroking it a bit when it comes on the sofa But when she has this fertility check, she is like, okay, well, actually, I realize I don't want children. I am going to go backpacking around South America and living my girlboss life that I've always wanted. Because also, I think a dynamic that's kind of inherent in Andy thinking that she's boring corporate in her work life and he's artistic is he's never stopped for a second to wonder why she's working a corporate job that, like, maybe she enjoys, but, you know, why do people work corporate jobs? It's usually financial or it's often not a choice that's kind of motivated by the heart. And we find out at the end that it's always the fluke where she applied after university, she got in and then every time she wanted to leave, she kept being offered a promotion because she's good at her job and everything. And so she ended up just staying on. And at the end of the book, she does decide to go and travel around South America, but you really feel that like, it's taken her this long and she's now in her mid-thirties to kind of shrug off the societal pressure on the one hand of this work and of like, well, why would you leave a well-paying job? And on the other hand of this relationship of like, well, don't you want children? You're getting old, you're like losing your eggs. And she's actually called by a fertility clinic who were like harassing her basically about freezing her eggs. And she ends up getting quite upset about it and telling them to never contact her again. But I think it's also like a very interesting and like common dimension of coming into your thirties as a woman, which is obviously like central to the way that she experiences this breakup in a way that it really, really isn't for Sandy. Like, I don't think he even mentions kids at any point in the book. And for her, like, that's, I mean... Well, the only time he really mentions it is when he's literally bringing up his suspicions that she just wouldn't want to have children with him. Yeah. As opposed to that being like a genuine desire of hers that she's honestly expressing. I think... For her, I think that's a big sacrifice of breaking up. I mean, sacrifice in kind of quotation marks. Well, another interesting dynamic of this is that he is in fact the son of a, like, teenage mother who was abandoned by her baby daddy. And his kind of take for granted relationship with his mother versus the, like, quite emotionally intimate relationship that Jeff and his mother have with each other is compelling and interesting. And I would love to know what you thought of that. There's some, like, moving conversations that happen between the three of those characters. Well, I mean, I think whatever Andy describes is... Also, I'm sorry, but I have to start finding a Wi-Fi! Okay, I think in that case, we don't talk about that, because that's not an important thing. Yeah, I mean, overall, I think... So, overall, what's... Would you recommend this book? How many stars would you be giving it? I would give this book four out of five stars. I really enjoyed it. I thought it was creatively structured. I thought it was well-written. I thought it was funny. It was sad. It was a thoughtful capture of a moment in time that felt authentic. And the only reason I've taken it five stars is because I think there's always room to grow. I'm not out here to be a five-star reviewer, you know? It's sort of a policy. What about you? Well, I agree that it's a good book. I enjoyed reading it. It made me think a lot. I quoted it to several friends who are currently going through breakups, to be like, oh, this is exactly what it's like. But I can't say I enjoyed reading all of Andy's POV. Partly that's the intention, and not every book has to be an easy read. But I would say, for that reason, I would struggle to give it four stars, because four stars would be something that I read in a night with real pleasure, and there were bits where I was really like, god, this character is unbearable, and it could have been... I think a lot of the scenes are important, but also I wouldn't have minded if a couple of them had been cut, you know? So I would say I'm going to give it 3.75 stars as a bit of a compliment. I highly recommend this book. So thank you for listening at home. We hope you enjoyed this discussion. Soon we'll be reading Everything I Know About Love, which is also by Dolly Alderton, so stay tuned for that. We've got lots more in the works, so hope you'll be hearing from us soon. Bye!