LAP 1 Podcast - Andrew McMasters 2

Andrew McMasters is a leadership expert, actor, and entrepreneur with 30 years of experience. He works with Fortune 500 companies using experiential learning to enhance communication and collaboration. His book, "Listening Without Agenda," explores the difference between hearing and truly listening, addressing internal biases and offering practical exercises. He emphasizes the importance of agenda-free listening to improve relationships, reduce conflict, and enhance leadership. Andrew co-founded Jet City Improv in 1992 to empower actors to be present in the moment, incorporating improv skills into acting for authenticity and character development. I want to welcome Andrew McMasters. He's a leadership development expert, actor, and entrepreneur with over 30 years of experience. He's worked with Fortune 500 companies like Amazon, Microsoft, GE, and Apple using experiential learning to strengthen communication, collaboration, and presence. As the founder of a nonprofit theater and author of Listening Without Agenda, Andrew brings creative insight and practical tools to help leaders drive innovation and connection. That's a lot of stuff. Wow, yeah. It sounds better than when you say it. Yeah, it does. So you have a book. Yeah. I put it there, Listening Without Agenda. Thank you. And so I'm going to read to it in a little bit. So as I look through the book and put together this, correct me if I'm wrong, you know, but so Listening Without Agenda, we're exploring the differences between hearing and truly listening. The impact of internal biases in the practical exercise, I'm sorry, let me set this right. Yeah. So your book, Listening Without Agenda, the way I looked at it was it explores the differences between hearing and truly listening, the impact of internal biases, and practical exercise for mindful engagement. So I look at this book as really redefining the art of communication, offering practical tools to improve relationships, reduce some of the conflict as well, and enhance leadership through agenda-free listening. Was that accurate? Again, you're making it sound better than I ever thought, so yeah, I'll go with that. So we'll get into the book a little bit more. Like, what's the key point? And I think that, again, I wrapped it up, but if you said choose kind of like the elevator pitch or this is what this book is about, what would you say? How would you say it? I think the key idea is that we never really learn how to listen. We just sort of pick it up as we go along. But we don't actually sit down and go, what are we listening for? How are we listening? And in general, I mean, I kind of talk a lot about brain science too. Our brain will immediately hear something, attach the knowledge to that that we have, and then we are busy in that knowledge as opposed to ignoring what else just came in. So we tend to listen for data points, and sometimes we get stuck on those data points, and we miss the new data points that have come in. And that's that sort of point of, we don't, we haven't learned to relax, bring it all in, think about what that is, synthesize, maybe even repeat back, disconnect the need to connect it to something we already know, disconnect the need to solve. And then also what people say is only portions of what they mean. So there's a lot to unpack. Yeah, a whole lot. So we'll get to that in just a second, but I do want to kind of step back and talk about you as a person first. So we're going to get into the book for just a second, but I did want to ask, because I think a lot of, when I was reading your book, and by the way, we've known each other, I was trying to count it up, I think about five years or so. Probably. Yeah, so I remember meeting you at a local Association for Talent Development event, and you were doing a, it was a circle thing, and we were improv-ing some talks and stuff like that, and you said something, and I told you this before, it changed my life. It was the yes and. And it was the idea of that you can, you don't have to necessarily agree up here, but it doesn't mean that you can't say, well, yes and, meaning portions of whatever they're saying is fine, but let's move, let's work together, right? And then I have things that I need to get out to, right? And so yes and has been a big part of my life moving forward from there. Yeah, I think you said it. Yeah, yeah, thank you. But I know it comes from like improv, type of things. And so I was looking it up online, and I see, I see it. Well, that's a very young Andrew Ambassadors there. Young Andrew Ambassadors, and Jet City Improv. Tell us about what, so you co-founded Jet City Improv in 1992? 1992. Okay. Yeah. And why, and why this though? Why, you know, I had done some improv. Actually, it was funny, last night people were asking me, when did you start doing improv? And I'm thinking 86, 87, you know, and so you sort of forgot how long I've been doing it. One of the things that as an actor, I found that people always, as actors, wait for the phone to ring. Like we're waiting for the job, we're waiting for someone to pick the play, we're waiting for the director, we're waiting for the casting director, you know, whoever it is. And instead I thought, well, why not just do something? Like if you create your own showcase, you create your own play, you create your own thing, you're on stage, you can invite people, they could see you, and then that increases the phone calls. Okay. So that was really kind of the impetus. Like, let's start something. Instead of being a waiter? Yeah. Like let's do improv, because then we can sharpen our skills and stuff. Right. And don't get me wrong, I'm still a waiter during this time, because that's what, the bartending is what paid for this job. Okay, so at that point, I mean, because improv is hard. Yeah. When you think about it, because it's using kind of the same thing, I think, because you mentioned in the book of waiting for someone else to stop talking, and then you have to then continue on, and it's different, but that's hard too, of like, what are they saying, and then how do I then branch off from that or whatever? Right? Yeah. So is that when you started kind of thinking about listening? Yeah. And really kind of embracing that idea, like you said, of yes and. Okay. Yeah. I think in a lot of ways, wow, this is going to sound bad, sorry. There's a lot of improvisers who I think believe in that, and they do it on stage, and yet haven't figured out how to translate that to their life. Okay. And to me, that's one of those skills that when you start thinking about it in terms of your life, or how it works in the rest of the world, you start to go, oh, okay, all right, but what's next? Yeah. And you continue to just, whatever the moment is, you accept it and build it. I think I've told you before, my biggest example is the pandemic. Yeah. None of us liked it. Right. However, you accept it. You go, yeah, okay. Right. And. All the way, or you could say, yes and. Right. Yes and, how are we going to figure this out? Yep. And that's it. Health care or whatever it was, right? I don't, how I feel about it doesn't come into play. It's reality. It happens. So I accept it, and then I build on it by figuring out the next thing I'm going to do. So it's an impetus to action. It's also an acceptance of what has happened. Got it. And I think that idea is really what kind of kept me in this mode and kept me going. I have more questions. Yeah. I'm going to wait for the book, because there's some things I think link back to this, of being present and listening. And so I want to talk about that. I, again, I'm still a little bit addicting, and I did not know that you have an IMD-C phase. I want to point out a couple of things. So you're going to take a couple of minutes. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. This is serious right here. Yeah it is. Hello. Yeah. So you have a few movies out there, right? And I see that this is, look like there's like a little bit of improv about movie things. Is this something that also, so you spoke about this before. Yeah. You have a degree from the University of Washington. Yes. And so acting is in your blood. Yeah. Does that, when you're doing acting, are you doing the same thing? Because it's almost like you, it's a different persona though, you know, and you have a script. How does like listening and all that really affect like acting? Because aren't you just going, hey, I'm reading these lines. Not reading them, but I'm memorizing lines and I'm, you know, back and forth. How does that work from an acting perspective? Well, and that's the idea of improv has sort of turned into something else now, this unscripted theater. And originally it was taught for actors to learn how to be present in this moment. Oh, interesting. Okay. So as I am here, I am just in this moment available. And you said the line, which I know you're going to say, but maybe today you said it slightly differently. And I'm like, oh, what does that mean? And then that. Being in that character, being present, you know, you know the lines, but I have to react to that in that character. Then you do have to listen. Yeah. Oh, how interesting. Which then leads to, and I see this on stage all the time, people who, you know, they're walking around and they've got the pencil in their hand, and all of a sudden the pencil drops. And that, like, and the audience, Right. The audience is watching the pencil. Everyone. There's the pencil. Exactly. Pick it up. As opposed to the improviser, or the actor who knows how to improvise, and just goes, oh, yeah. And you know what? Why don't I have this? You know, you just, whatever happens is the reality. You accept it. You build on it. And you incorporate it into what's happening. So from an actor, you, cause you're showing character. Yeah. What would that character do? Right. If I drop the pencil, right? If the character's grumpy, like, damn it, I'm picking it up. Yeah. And keep going, right? That's brilliant. I love it. And so, and you're right. Like, how do you bring that into your real life? So, and again, I'm gonna talk a little bit about, authenticity. Yeah. In just a minute. I got, I got one more. One more. We stare at these pictures. These are good. These are good. So, here we go. All right. So this one, so, Oh. This one's like, I don't know what you're doing here. And this one's a great one. So I'd love to have you, Yeah. Give us a couple, a couple things on these, and how it's helped you, Yeah. Yeah. To get to where you're at today. I mean, this is on stage at Jet City Improv. So doing a show. And, and one of the things that I, used to love to do all the times, is I would say, you know, I'd host. So I'd kind of come out, and warm the audience up, and get them ready. And I'd be like, you know, we need your suggestions. Yeah. Because this is your show. Right. And, and if you don't like it, it's your fault, right? And that's why we make you pay on the way in. So, that was just one of my, I think this is one of those moments, where I'm going, I don't like it, it's your fault. Yeah. And they're all like, Right. And they're all like, ah. So you know, you're involved in, in the whole thing. Right? So, yeah. How many people would be in the audience? Like on a big, you know, let's say a Friday night, where it's, you know, it's packed. How many people are in there? Yeah. That theater, the big yellow theater, had 150 seats. Okay. And we would do five to six shows a week. Wow. So, we ran, you know, I mean, we, it originally was about 165. We took some seats out, because, you know, why not? And then, but we ran, fairly high capacity, for a lot of things. I mean, we were running, probably at about, maybe 75, 80% capacity, for a lot of the shows. Okay. So, so, you, but you're engaging that many people. Yeah. And the, and the role of, of the people on stage, was to do that. Yeah. No matter if the person's in the back, or whatever, right? Yeah. So again, I want to, I'm going to, I'm not going to ask deep, deep questions, but it's important. I think, it's important to have conversations. So, yeah. And then, what about the TED talk? This is, this is my second TED talk. See, there we go. I'm glad I, I was able to, bring something on you. I have my first one, with Andre Gallard, my friend, who's a neuroscientist. Yeah. And we, yeah. Okay. So that's a short, about six minute, one that we had done, sort of, is a little interstitial, in between a couple of TED talks. Okay. For TEDx Rainier, which is now TEDx Seattle. Gotcha. Okay. So, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, there's kind of a, there is a little pivotal moment, if I can kind of, if I can kind of, if I can kind of, I'm trying to remember the date on this, but I know it was before, it was like early 2000, somewhere around there. Someone from Hasbro contacted me, and said, I want to fly you out to Rhode Island, we're having this retreat, and we'd love for you to run through some improv games, and some theater stuff, and kind of talk about how we could use this. I was like, great. I went out to Rhode Island, and spent the day with them, and on the way leaving, the head of HR drove me back to the airport, and she had said, one of these people is going to be the next CEO, like the next person in charge. Who do you think really has the chops? And I'm like, oh, this woman, she's absolutely wonderful, like she's great. Sometimes she second guesses what she's talking about, and so you see this, that guy is really great too, oh, she's great, and I'm like, and I'm going through each one of the participants, kind of giving my take on what it was, and she dropped me off at the airport, and I sat there and went, I'm an actor, and you're asking me for my take on who is going to show up fully as the next CEO, and be present for people, and I think that hit me of, this is important, and in ways that maybe just doing it on stage wasn't. So yeah, I think that's where it kind of hit me, and I went, there's something here, and so I should track that down and keep doing it. So you were, you were back then, watching and listening. Yeah. To everything that was happening in the room, and that HR person knew that, saw that. Yeah. Looking at it, and you're absorbing, you're seeing what's happening, and asking you that advice. That's amazing. So question for you though, their next CEO wasn't someone in that list that you said? You know, I've never followed that. I should have. I need to look it up now and find out, but I will. I mean, you don't have to edit this out. I just. So they did. Yes, they did. Okay, but I mean, even if it wasn't, that's okay, because you had, to your point, it's a pivotal point where, you know, and I've had this, you know, sometimes in my job, because it doesn't happen all the time. You'll do something, you know, I did a session with 30 people last year in Spain, and we just had this, we were having this amazing experience, and then this one person just like stood up and was like, we can't do this, this, and this. And I was just like, just like, you know, you've been at the place for a long time. Yeah. Everything just went oof. I'm like, oh no. And you know, of course, it's one of those things where, you know, as a facilitator, you say, okay, we're gonna take a break. We're gonna figure this out. And I came back, and I did an activity where we all went for a walk with different people they don't know, had some cards, you know, what are your, you know, what are the things that are your values? Oh, I love that. What are the values? Yeah. Just one value. One value of what you value, and then flip it over and say, okay, how do I bring that to work? Yeah. And what we did is we did a reset. So we did a reset where, when they came back, they said, all your values that you want to bring to work all can be present. And yes, there's gonna be challenges. Right? And so we moved on from there, and after that, after that day, I had the leader come up to me, and every dispersion, I was cleaning up, and he leans in, and a little quiet, because there's still a few people in the room. He goes, that was fucking awesome. Yeah. I looked at him, and he goes, I don't know how you brought that back. He says, we're, he says, just in the last four hours, we're a tighter team because of what happened then and what happened after. Yeah. And I was just like, oh my, goosebumps, right? Yeah. And I was like, thank you for that. And then the next day went well, and all that. So yeah, I think it's, I think it's huge for you to have those points. You know, and that, the thing that you did is part of actually, part of what the book is about. It's the, how do you take, here's someone who has an objection. This is never gonna work. We're all gonna die here. You know, like this, this moment of here's this thing, and have everybody go, I hear you, and that is surface. Let's go to what you actually care about. Let's go to the value. Let's go what's important. How do we bring that value to what we do? And suddenly, if everybody can connect on that value, now, Ed, I mean, that's just, that's beautiful. That's beautiful. Well, I mean, again, it's one of those things where, because what he was talking about was from the heart. Yeah. And I, you know, and he came up and apologized to me after that. Whenever it went out, he goes, I apologize. He goes, it's probably too much. I'm like, it's okay. You know, you know, it was from your heart, and I get it. And yes, you know, I didn't tell him this, but like, in my mind, I'm like, yes, it, it kind of like, you know, like, that's a second bullshit moment, right? Right. Like, where do I go next? But, you know, again, it's like coming back then and saying, let's talk about those things that need to be, and that there are challenges to, right? And, you know, some of them you can overcome, and some of them, some of them, you know, we have to work on, right? So, so fast forward to today then. So, so, pivotal moment of what you do really is, is valuable, and you want to do more of it. And you've learned along the way. And then at some point you said, this means it. This seems like a big part. I know there's many other things, right? From, from the work that you've done, but you decided to write a book on listening. Yeah. And so, talk to us about how did that kind of come about then? Yeah. In, in unusual ways. It was working with, I think I told you about a friend of mine who is, I went to high school with, and she does marketing. She's a marketing guru, genius, and lives in Colorado. Was working with her on sort of, again, the values. What is it you do? And how do you describe that? What are those pieces? And she was one of those people, again, that said, it sounds to me like at the basis of it, you're helping people connect by giving them the tools to listen differently. And then talking to a bunch of other people, and I would say, oh, this is what I do. And here's these things. And they'd be like, seems like listening is at the core of everything. So for me, it was hearing it from other people. Yeah. That suddenly made me do the deep dive into, okay, well, if that's the case, then how does that skill fall into all of the things I believe? Like, yes, and. Right. You know, so it just snowballed. So other people, so you were looking at it, and you were saying, you know, I do a lot of things, you know, within leadership development. Starting to drill down into the values. But other people were telling you. Yeah. Sounds like what you're saying is listening. So you, so we don't often do that, though. It's listening to other people on what we should do next, right? It was something that came out of asking people. Like, what are you getting out of my stuff, right? And what, you know, what do you think is hitting you? What's the most important thing? Even in a sense, as I talk about listening, but it's also, listening happens with the entire body. So that moment that someone goes. Yeah. I hear that. I observe it. And now I know there's something else that's happening. Yeah. So I react to that. And so it's being aware of all of the things that might be happening. And incorporating that into what you're hearing. Yeah. I just stumped you. Yeah, no, no. Yeah. So the reason I'm going to ask this question is because I'm a person who does this. Yeah. I do this a lot. And then just because of, and I'll just do blunt, it's like, I'm a little overweight. So I'll sit down in a chair and I'll be like this because I kind of like to cover myself. Yeah. And all that. But it doesn't mean I'm not listening. So is it, I mean, is it something that then just societal that we kind of said, oh, if you're doing this, that means you're not listening or that sort of thing? Or is it psychological? It's like, you do actually kind of then, you know, like shut down a little bit. Or like, because I know that, I know this reflects, right? I know this reflects, but I, you know, sometimes it's just comfortable doing this. So I always have to find myself like, I don't want to cross my arms because I want to cover my beer belly. Right. So I'm just curious on to that. Are there things that you find that's like, even though it's psychologically, you look at it and go, oh, I think they're shutting down that, you know, are there things that I could do? I mean, maybe it is. Maybe it's just a discipline to like stay open. I think it has more to do with knowing who your audience is. Because if like, I mean, I know you. I trust you. So you do this. Yeah. It says to me, oh, you're interested in that and you're focusing in on it. That's what it says to me. If it's a brand new employee that I've just brought in and they're saying something that might be weird and I'm doing this, they might be like, oh, they hate me. They hate that idea. So. That's so good, too. Because what you just said there, I mean, you crossed your arms and you actually did a little bit of, which I do know you're listening, but to a new employee, you're like, hmm. Yeah. So the listening part is all body then, too. So it's not just like listening. It is leaning in. It is those kinds of things then. We listen with our entire body in so many different ways. And all of those things communicate. And again, this is the kind of thing that I think for leaders, this isn't a management skill that people will cover in your MBA. So leaders struggle with it. So why do they struggle with it and what's at stake if they don't get that? Disenfranchising. The lack of trust. That moment again that someone has said, I'm gonna do something maybe slightly uncomfortable and I'm gonna bring up this idea. And unfortunately, my body language has shown you that you don't wanna hear my idea. Years ago. Years and years and years ago. I had a woman who I worked with in Philadelphia who was, she was our boss. We were doing performing groups. And she had a facial tic. That was when she would listen, she would do this every once in a while. We didn't realize that. So we would be, okay, we put together this stuff and we're going to perform for her and she'd be sitting there going. And we were like, oh, she hates us. And she hates this. And then afterwards, she'd be like, that was amazing and wonderful. I'm like, that doesn't make sense to me. But we thought she hated us. We thought she hated what we did. In your mind, she didn't know because you've seen it. Right. I'm seeing something else and I'm not taking into account. Maybe that's just something that happens. Or, you know. So it's, that physical part does affect how I might feel about the conversation, what I believe. A new one that I just read, University of Wharton, University of Pennsylvania, the Wharton School, Business School. They took actors and they did this test saying, if I agree with you, then afterwards people say, I think they were a great listener. And even if they do all the things of being open, hear, and repeating back and do this, but I disagree, they think you're a bad listener. Oh, interesting. So I contacted her and said, well, let's talk about the yes and idea to be able to say, I'm hearing you and this is what I'm hearing and this is what I'm getting. Tell me more about this. Tell me what you care. Tell me what the value is behind it. Tell me this, tell me this. Okay. You know, I disagree. But here, let me tell you what I'm thinking of. What I love about what you're saying is these things. And so I think there are ways. Right. Bridging that gap between it. But for her, she found that the minute someone disagrees, they're like, oh, that person's a bad listener. Interesting. Yeah. Did she, when you did talk to her, was she receptive to that? Was she like, oh, that's an interesting, you know, way of thinking about it. Because you're right. It's like, you have to be pretty string free, not to say, tell me a little bit more. What do you feel like, there's a value space, those sort of things. And then you find some things that you're like, oh, there's a couple of things in there. I'm like, this is what, I understand that now. Yep. You know, I still disagree with maybe the big concept, but maybe we can move together on parts of it. Right? Yeah. Then you start to find common ground. Like your example of, you know, we're all gonna die here. Hey, let's go take a walk and let's talk about values. And now all of a sudden, we're connecting on, yeah, that's manifesting for you this way. And for me, I thought of it this way, that we both agree on the same value. And that's the key. Yeah. And that's the connection. Yeah. There's a lot of people, right? If you can get down to the values, right? Yeah. The human, the human aspect, right? Right. What do I care about? Yeah, what do I care about? The human aspect. And there's a lot of, a lot of times, we get stuck up in the, you know, whatever it is, whether it's, you know, the business thing, of that metric or whatever. And we lose sight of the human side, right? And so if we get down to that, the values and the human side, then we start that connection. Then we can start working towards those things, right? So, I love that. You do write in the book about the, the difference between the act of listening and the art of listening. Yeah. And for me, it was, you know, when I read that sentence, I was like, oh, what, so break it down for us. You know, and I, and I got it now, because I've read the book, but break it down on what that means for leaders, in this case. Yeah. Yeah. I think this actually hit me as I started doing research for the book. Everything that I found, what was training people on how to listen, was look intently, nod in appreciation. Mirror. Smile, mirror the way that they're sitting. Like, all of these sort of physical tools that I think in some ways are even keeping people from listening less, because now they're focusing on, oh, right, I have to smile and nod. Oh, I have to do this. And that was that sort of, people might look at it later and go, oh, yeah, it seemed like they were there. And then afterwards, when I asked them about it, they were like, yeah, I don't know what the hell you said. You know? Right, right, right. So, that act of listening, and I believe a lot of people have that as the, that's how I listen. This is the way I listen. As opposed to, what are you actually hearing? And, what is it then is getting in your way when you're attempting to listen? Right. Even that, the simple exercise that I do, where I make people, one of the exercises in the book, shut down the automatic responses of saying smile. You got smiling, saying yeah, okay, uh-huh, and just, just listen. Right. That's it. It is. And it's, but it's also getting people to understand, are these things getting in the way? And what is getting in the way? Right. Or are they helping you? And again, there's no right or wrong answers, because people are all different. So, it might be people are like, I have to do this, because otherwise I can't think. Yeah. And there are other people that are like, oh, now I can actually focus. So, you know, it's really just getting people to understand, for you, what works. So, so, so, so, there's lots of different kind of tools that you, that you put in the books. And some exercises, some things, you know, some tips and that sort of thing. Yeah. You know, it's funny, because, you know, when we were just talking about, you know, I said lean in, or mirror, I went to a day-long workshop on neuro-linguistics programming. And it was all of this, and like, oh, you know, if you want people to know you're listening, you lean in, and you mirror what they're doing. So, Andrew, you're sitting like this, I sit like this, but don't go like this. Yeah. You know, and then Andrew goes like, oh, so, so, I'm like, so, and then it also can be used as an influence, right? So, you can influence people by doing that. And so, you know, I remember at the end of that workshop, I went, I actually had a little bit of an argument with, with my instructor, because I'm like, this is, the way you talk about these things is like, people are going to come over and say, this is how I listen, or this is how I can influence. Yeah. That's not authentic, you know? And so, so I do think that there are some of those things where we have to do a certain thing to listen. And then there's other things where we want to solve the problem. Right. Right? Where that gets in our way, right? So it's not just, not just the, oh, don't cross your arms, don't do that. It's also, you know, I want to solve the problem, or this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, I have now progressed because I'm so good at doing that now I'm in charge of people. Your job is not to do, your job is to foster these individuals to become as good doers as you are, if not better. That's your job. If I continue to go, hey, I know how to do this because I've been down this road, I am no longer fostering them, I'm just giving them the answer. At that point, the pinch point for innovation and development and forward motion is you because now everyone comes to you and asks questions. So you become the thing that is holding things back as opposed to, oh, okay, so what are you running up against? Wow, okay. So tell me what you've done. Right. Cool. All right. What else have you considered? You know, what resources do you want to do? You know, maybe there's someone you could connect with. Who do you think it could be? Yeah. Your job is to develop those individuals and I think that's the difficulty is we get to this point and we could do it so easily. It's like, just put the X there. Right. Right. So it works. Right. Right. But that, but you know, and it's a huge point, right? Because that's not how they got there. No. In fact, you've talked to a lot of readers and they worked hard and they did this and they went and they researched this and all this. And it's like, no one told them what steps to take, right? Because in each person is slightly different, right? Yeah. Having to say, well, I know this, I'm going to do this. Don't know that, so I do need some help, right? But I think that's the thing that they miss and you're right. It's like, just put the X there. Well, that's not how you did it. That's how you learn, right? So fostering that growth. And if you, and if you really think about that, the fostering growth, it's letting them make some mistakes. Yeah. It's asking them, you know, what do you need? Or have you talked to someone else? I love that. It's such a great, it's such a great way to just kind of say, hey, leaders, take a step back. How did you do this? And then ask questions. That's the brilliant of that thing that you had done when you said, when you were at Gates, that was the fail fest. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like I feel that, when you told me that story, that just resonates in my brain of, that's what people need. I need the stories. Yeah. But we learned from it, right? We learned. This is how that progressed. And that's why I'm here, because it went through these steps and that's the, you know, that's the magic. It really is. So good. So good. So we're going to take a break. Okay. Five minute break. Great. Come back and ask some more questions. Wonderful. All right. Thank you. Yep. I'm going to check the video and, got time? Yeah. I got time. I figured we'll just talk for another hour and we'll cut it, slice it, and all that, you know? We even have two, where we're talking about the book for one, and we're going to talk about some other stuff, you know? Amazing. You've seen the Diary of a CEO? I don't want to. So there's a podcast called Diary of a CEO, and he, some of them are just so-so, but like, he does, like he'll bring on Simon Sinek and a few others. Oh, okay. And his podcasts and videos are two hours long. Doesn't, doesn't cut him, doesn't do anything. It's just, and most of it's just that, you know, he's got, actually, the iPad thing is from him. I was like, oh, I'll just hold the iPad. And it's so, and it's, and it's so interesting, you know? And it's like, they cover everything, you know, that they want to cover. And sometimes it's like an hour and 40 minutes, and it never goes over two hours. But it's breaking the mold of the, of that, of the podcast thing. And you can fast forward to whatever chapter you want, but I just found it interesting, because most podcasts, you know, are like 15 minutes. You know, it's either 15 minutes, 30 minutes, or an hour. And it's like, you know, it's like, so why can't, you can do whatever you want. Yeah. So, we'll go check it real quick. Great. Do you need to use the restroom? No, I'm okay. Yeah, I will need to cut, you know, right up, just as we hit three, because I have a show to do. I need to be there at 430, but it's South Lake Union. So. Well, let's be at 245 then. Yeah, cool. And I can't see the clock, so you can. Yeah. Actually, I will run the document. Wrap it up here. Got it. Okay.