Details
Trigger Warning: This episode discusses the issue of suicide. In this episode Kris Isom shares her monologue about losing her trans grandchild to suicide. In this episode we also debunk myths about trans people.
Comment
Details
Trigger Warning: This episode discusses the issue of suicide. In this episode Kris Isom shares her monologue about losing her trans grandchild to suicide. In this episode we also debunk myths about trans people.
Comment
Trigger Warning: This episode discusses the issue of suicide. In this episode Kris Isom shares her monologue about losing her trans grandchild to suicide. In this episode we also debunk myths about trans people.
All Rights Reserved
You retain all rights provided by copyright law. As such, another person cannot reproduce, distribute and/or adapt any part of the work without your permission.
Listen to The Equity Hour Part I of Trans Issues Series by Cindy Renee Provencio MP3 song. The Equity Hour Part I of Trans Issues Series song from Cindy Renee Provencio is available on Audio.com. The duration of song is 57:16. This high-quality MP3 track has 1411.2 kbps bitrate and was uploaded on 2 May 2025. Stream and download The Equity Hour Part I of Trans Issues Series by Cindy Renee Provencio for free on Audio.com – your ultimate destination for MP3 music.
The hosts of the Equity Hour, Cindy Renee Provencio and Kit West, are interviewing Chris Isom, a grandmother who experienced the tragic loss of her transgender grandchild, Coraline, to suicide. Chris shares the story of Coraline's journey and the impact of online bullying and manipulation. The interview highlights the need for awareness and protection against cyberbullying, as well as the importance of supporting and accepting transgender individuals. They discuss the existence of laws against cyberbullying, but also acknowledge the need for better enforcement. The following program is pre-recorded and the views expressed on this program do not reflect the views of Gila Mindre's Community Radio and belong solely to the program hosts and guests. You are listening to Gila Mindre's Community Radio, KURU 89.1 FM, Silver City, New Mexico, and online at GMCR.org. You are listening to the Equity Hour, Where the Political is Personal, a monthly show. The Equity Hour is part of the Kindred Continuum series and airs on the first Monday of the month at 10 a.m. and is replayed on the air the following Sunday at 4 p.m. I'm your co-host, Cindy Renee Provencio. And I'm your co-host, Kit West. This show is the first part of our series on transgender issues. We are interviewing Chris Isom, who is here to share a monologue that she wrote to tell the story of her trans grandchild. We want to give our listeners a trigger warning, as this story includes suicide. Chris, please take it away. Thank you, Renee. I'm just a grandma. In 1998, my grandchild was born. According to the ultrasound, this child was to be a girl. Her two previous children were boys, Nathan first and Nolan second. Everyone was so excited that she was going to have a girl. We threw a baby shower where we gave the traditional lots of pink, pink clothing and baby items. We were surprised, though, when the baby was born, a boy. Little did we know that that really, that the ultrasound was correct. I helped my daughter deliver her third child. I was the first to hold him. He was perfect. Rosy pink cheeks, blue eyes, blonde hair, and so beautiful and so healthy. We locked eyes in that moment, and we were still together as grandma and grandson forever. Tears flowed down my face, and my heart was full of love. They named him Nicholas. Cute as he could be. Loved. So loved. I was able to be a big part of my grandchild's life. We went on a lot of hikes together. Nicholas liked photography, so we explored the woods and the mountains of Colorado together. Nicholas took lots of photos of the sites that were, to him, beautiful. We spent time going to First Fridays in Denver to look at art. He found such inspiration from the other artists. They enjoyed talking to him and sharing their ideas and views on art. I had an idea that Nicholas was going to be an artist. I loved how my grandchild woke up singing. We would sing together. Favorite song being, Happy Birthday to Me. And he would call out to me, Grandma, what are you making me for breakfast? And please don't say oatmeal. He had the best laugh. It would roll from his belly, and you could not help but laugh along with him. My daughter's family lived with me three times during their children's upbringing. I was so thrilled to get to watch them grow up and to be who they wanted to be. When my grandson was around 16, he started having trouble in life. He was getting in fights at school. He was being bullied and trying to fight back. High school was a nightmare for him. He was also having trouble at home. My daughter took him to see a psychologist. The psychologist diagnosed him with mental health issues. In covering all of this, Nicholas found himself telling us that he was a she. Nicholas changed her name to Coraline. In our family, this was accepted and she was loved. My daughter helped her with clothes and makeup and helped her navigate the health requirements to make these changes and helped her husband explore all of his feelings on these big changes. I loved them, and I loved her. Along the way, Coraline was lonely, for friends, and a supportive community. Coraline looked online for this support. Little did we know or understand that this was not a supportive or caring community. I had come to visit during this time, and Coraline seemed to spend a lot of time alone on the computer, talking to people in chat rooms. At one point, she came out of her room and she was all upset. She was crying, telling me that the people in the chat rooms were telling her that she was sick, that she was bad and she was wrong for being trans. She explained to me that she was trying to tell them that being who she really was was not wrong and that she was perfect as she was. I agreed with her and told her to stop talking to those people in that chat room. They sounded unkind and not friends at all. Along with this online community, with their negativity, Coraline was living in Aberdeen, Washington, the home of Kurt Cobain. It had become infamous for suicides, and this online community that Coraline was spending so much time in had an alternative objective. This online group was pretending to be her friends, but they were really very evil people. They convinced her, my beautiful, vulnerable grandmother, to commit suicide, and she did. She hung herself in an apple tree in my daughter's backyard. My eldest grandson and my daughter found her leaving this image etched in their brains and on their hearts. On July 5, 1999, my son-in-law called me to tell me that she was gone and that she had hung herself. His words were barely audible, said between tears and cracking sobs. I could not believe that I was hearing these words. They made absolutely no sense to my brain. I could not absorb the words, and when they did, I fell to the floor, no longer able to stand. I got on a plane into my daughter and family from here in New Mexico as fast as I could. I arrived in Seattle to find my daughter and her husband in the shambles. Their world would never be the same. Coraline was so very loved, and we all struggled with the guilt of not doing enough. Not interceding on her behalf, not moving heaven and earth to create a world where she would feel loved and accepted by everyone. A world where she could be all she desired. This was all gone now. All of us felt such a weight of this big hole that Coraline left. I stayed with my daughter for a couple weeks. I was so worried that in her pain, she would follow her daughter. She's a plant woman like me, and I thought she needs to be with the plants so that she can feel all of us grounded. At this time, fireweed was blooming all around us, and I thought, fireweed grows where there's been a fire or where there's been a disturbance to the forest floor. It's a repairing plant for the forest, and I hoped it would help restore and repair my dear daughter. We spent hours wandering the forest along the coastline of Washington State, looking for patches of fireweed. One day, and we harvested flowers for hours. Together, we made jelly from those flowers. A repairing was occurring to my daughter's heart. It has been slow. My dear girl will never be the same. The loss of this precious soul has taken my daughter's light. The grief and the regret was such a burden for us all. In my attempts to rescue and save them all from this pain, I tried to save what could not be saved. I know now that we, each one, will walk through this grief on our own. I wanted someone to do something. I wanted the police to arrest these people that were online as I saw them as murderers. My daughter tried to give her computer to the sheriff's department so that they could dig into it and find the people that had done this. It felt like they just wanted to close the case as a suicide and be done with it. We knew that this was all part of the doors being closed on us. Was the prejudice against her that made the pain and regrets even deeper? Why would they not help? Why did they not care? My son-in-law could not stand seeing that tree from the window in their bedroom. He stopped and he screamed as that tree fell. His pain was visible with every blow of that axe. It became my goal to help them get out of that house and out of that town. My vow to be there for anyone going through this was one of my life's main objectives to date. I feel like I did not do enough to be there to help my dear grandchild. I wish I had done more to help her find a community of loving and caring people. We are not only shells of who we were without Carline. The answer is always love. Love your loved ones today and let them know that you are there for them no matter what. I am just a grandma. Thank you, Chris. Thank you, Chris, for being courageous and to share that with us and to our listeners. Well, I hope it helps others. I hope it helps other families to know that there's this kind of catfishing, I guess it's called, going on in the world and even though we were loving and caring of our dear Carline, there's people around that are not. I feel like we need to protect them. We need to let others know that this is going on. Absolutely. Well, things in some ways have gotten worse and in other ways have gotten better. I mean, now there are laws. Did you know that? As of 2006, there's a state and federal laws against what happened to Carline and it's because of a case with Megan Meyer and she had some mental illness issues as well. Right. And then the neighbors decided to bully her in a cyber way. So they used then MySpace and they convinced her of the same kind of story to get on MySpace and they pretended to be someone else. Right. So she didn't know. That's what catfishing is really, I think, all about. You pretend to be somebody else and they started bullying her and her ego and everything and she also hung herself. And so it was a big, huge thing at the time and they finally at the state level in Missouri, they passed a law and then they made it part of a federal law to include the cyber bullying. Right. In a previous law on the federal level. So they have that, at least. It is against the law now to do this. We need the police to know. They should know. That this is going on instead of just wiping it away. What was the year of your grandchild's death? 1999. Right. So this all went into effect in 2006. Right. So there is a little bit more awareness and it's something that we have that and the law is only as good as our enforcement of those laws. So it's not always good. It's not always as good as we want it to be. And then just recently in 2024, there was a man who got a life sentence because he did the same thing, cyber bullying and he, the child killed herself and so, yeah, he got a life sentence. He was from Ireland and he had international Right. He had like 20 people or more. All over the world. So he got life and he has to serve at least 20 years of that sentence. So, you know, things are getting a little bit better in some ways but then in other ways, you know, the government has turned against trans and so that's the bad thing that's happening now is that it's affecting trans youth and the cyber bullying is still going on and in addition to that, every time a state law changes and becomes, makes life harder for trans, the suicide rate goes up. That's what we're seeing. He died July 8th, July 6th of 2019. Right, okay, so then that law was on the books Right, but just for people listening, right, if any of this happens to friends or family or anything, there are laws. To protect them. Yes, there are laws. So if the police say, well, it's just a mental illness case, no, Megan Meyer had no mental illness issues too but it's still, it's still against the law. Right. Cyber bullying is still against the law. So that's a good thing to know. It is. I hope our listeners know this and hear this. Yeah, so there's something positive. You are listening to Gila Mientras Community Radio KURU 89.1 FM Silver City, New Mexico and online at GMCR.org You are listening to the Equity Hour where the political is personal. A monthly show. The Equity Hour is part of the Kindred Continuum series and airs on the first Monday of the month at 10 a.m. and will be replayed on the air the following Sunday at 4 p.m. And I am your co-host, Indulene Fravencio and I do want to give our listeners a trigger warning. We are discussing transgender issues and their... and suicide. So please note that there is a trigger warning for this show. Okay. The law. Let's just get a little specific here. On May 22, 2008, Congresswoman Linda T. Sanchez introduced H.R. 6123 as the Megan Meyer Cyber Bullying Prevention Act to amend Title 18 United States Code with respect to cyber bullying. Okay. So there it is. It's real. It's real. Okay. 2008. Okay. So they... So that's what I meant by, you know, our laws are only as good as our enforcement of them. And so sometimes you have to be... I don't know what you have to do, but, I mean, you tried. Right. So just so people know the law is on their side. Like, if you had known that at that time, you might have been better armed to deal with this. Oh, for sure. Yeah. Sure. If I would have had that information. And what I saw from the situation there in Washington State was that they were just like, this is a suicide, and that community had so many. It felt like, no, this is just a suicide, and that's as far as we're going to take it. And they weren't interested in seeing the computer or hearing what we knew at all. Yeah. And then there's the state-to-state thing. I mean, Washington is pretty liberal, but that situation seems like they were overwhelmed. I think they were. So here in New Mexico, maybe it would be a little bit... Different. Different. But we don't know. You know. Well, I hope no one else is ever in this situation again, but unfortunately there are people like this out there. Right. And the trends are being targeted on so many levels. I think that it's connected, isn't it? I mean, so you're cyberbullying young people, some are mentally ill already, right, and disabled. Right. And so then why else would they be doing this? Why would they be only looking for friends if they weren't having a hard time at school? Exactly. They're already isolated, so they're very vulnerable. And so to broaden that out, and in addition, like for trans, the suicide rate is very, very high already. Right. And then it's higher under Trump's administration. And so there's many articles, but one of them says anti-transgender laws cause up to 72% increase in suicide attempts among transgender and non-binary youth. Okay. And that's by the Trevor Project. That's a very high percentage. Right. Right. And they've done a lot of studies about this, and it's more the youth, right? It's ages 13 to 24. Wow. And especially, that's a very vulnerable age, and then also younger than 18. Right. Coraline was in that age group. Right. So this one study by the Trevor Project says that the study finding demonstrated a significant increase in suicide attempts among all participants whose home state had enacted at least one anti-transgender law. The highest increase in suicide attempt rates, ranging from 7% to 72%, was reported among participants younger than age 18. Across the full sample of transgender and non-binary young people ages 13 to 24, an increase in suicide attempt rates was 38% to 44%. That's still very high. Right. Incredible. Yeah. Awful. So it's a direct correlation between these kinds of legislation. Right. Right. It's almost epidemic. I think it already was an epidemic, and then these new laws are making it go higher. Yeah. Right. Because of bullying, because of isolation, you know, all sorts. And just with the difficulties involved in those kinds of things. So, and this is before all of these laws. This one study says that data indicate that 82% of transgender individuals have considered killing themselves and 40% have attempted suicide, with suicidality highest among transgender youth. Okay. And 66% of youth reported a previous suicide attempt and 86% reported suicidality. So, and this is not necessarily because of the government, this was before, and this is because of school belonging issues, emotional neglect by family, and internalized self-stigma made a unique statistically significant contribution to past six months' suicidality. So those are issues that are there in society anyway. And then you add to that the laws going into effect that make them even feel more isolated. Like, let's imagine that they even did have a supportive family, like your grandchild had. You're still going to feel isolated when there are laws against you. And in Iowa recently, they took away the civil liberties of trans people. Unless they're still targeted. Right. So you have that. And then, not to be too depressing, but the future doesn't look very good either because the Trump administration is, including budget in their budget, cutting services for LGBTQ plus youth. Okay. So if President Donald Trump's budget is passed, the specialized service for LGBTQ plus youth would end this October, which means that's the people who pay for the 988 suicide and crisis lifeline. Oh my gosh. That would end. So for our listeners, right, this is, we can do something about this, right? And we really won't talk politics here, but these are, in this budget, it's a direct effect on this population. Okay. So some of the statistics are since 2022, 988, which is the number, suicide number, right, they called. LGBTQ plus service has received nearly 1.3 million contacts. It's called. Including almost 59,000 just this past February, the most recent month of published data. 59,000? Mm-hmm. Oh my goodness. Just this past February. So then you take that away, right? So that's on the, it's in the budget to take that away. So we just want to, you know, send a shout out to our listeners that this isn't really being discussed that much in the newspapers these days. We're always listening about, hearing about immigrants, which is very important too. Yes. And all sorts of other budget cuts. But have you heard, Renee, about this particular budget cut? No, I hadn't. So it would make, it would make a lot of sense I hadn't. So it would make it unavailable for everyone who needs to call that 9-1-1. It wouldn't exist anymore. Right. 9-8-8 would not exist. They would, it would be cut in this October. It wouldn't exist. And how many lives has it, has it potentially saved? How many calls has it? Well, 1.3 million calls since 2022. And 59,000 just this past February. Okay. So, yeah. That's going on. And then Iowa took them out of their civil rights. And then one of the first things that Trump did was to sign an executive order that curtails access to gender-affirming care and protections for LGBTQ plus children in schools. And the Health and Human Services Secretary, Robert F. Kennedy, is planning to either close or consolidate the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Service Administration, which funds 9-8-8, the distribution of anti-overdose drugs and addiction treatments across the nation. Wow. Right. So, maybe, hopefully, maybe some states can pick up the slack. I think there is in New Mexico there's a crisis line. Yeah. It's just up here in New Mexico. It's in the news, isn't it? Yeah, it's just in the newspaper every day. Right. Pick it up. Right. So, yeah. In case you know anybody who should have that information. It's a good thing to know. I am going to look it up. That way we can give it to our listeners at a later point in the show. Right. And so, am I wrong or does it feel like we're being targeted? You know, targeting is the right word. In Mother Jones' publication there's a quote by the Trevor Project that says, I worry that LGBTQ plus young people will reach out to 988 and not receive a compassionate and welcoming voice on the other end and that will only deepen their crisis. So, this is what we have. Right. I also have that sense here. So, we maybe our local communities our state communities our county communities right can help pick up the slack. We can get in touch with the people who are running those things on the local and state and county levels and see what's being done. People can volunteer. Right. You know, I know that it takes special training to be on those crisis hotlines but you know or just put pressure on people seeing what's being done now that the federal government is not doing this. It hasn't happened yet. The budget might now pass. That's true. That's true. We can hope and pray that it doesn't pass. So, I found the number for the New Mexico crisis and access line. It's one eight by five four six six two seven four seven four and there's also a New Mexico peer to peer warm line. That number is one eight five five four six six seven one zero zero and we'll go ahead and give those again towards the end. And some other things to put this in context is we could bust a few myths here on the equity hour right now. There are quite a few but one of the ones that's very destructive for the image and that has been politicized is that the bathroom issue. Okay? So, we have a bathroom issue that trans are attacking people in bathrooms and this has been I think why Iowa took away their civil rights. So, Julia Serrano and her she's the author of a book 2022 book called Sexed Up How Society Sexualizes Us and How We Can Fight Back and she quotes a series of articles and so you can find this online if you're really concerned about your child and you've been hearing a lot of stories in the newspaper and online about how dangerous trans people are that they are so this might make put your mind at rest and she says trans people are victims rather than perpetrators of harassment and assault in public restrooms okay and this comes from Media Matters for America okay 15 experts debunk right-wing transgender bathroom myths right law enforcement officials government employees and advocates for victims of sexual assault have debunked this myth okay so that's a that's a that's a very powerful thing you need to have and you are you are listening to Hila Mendes Community Radio KURU 89.1 FM it's over streaming in Mexico and online at GMCR.org you are listening to the equity hour for the political is personal and I'm your co-host Cindy Rene Provencio and I do want to give our listeners a trigger warning we are on the topic of suicide among our transgender people and we are talking about we were myth busting so right we are myth we're busting the myth about transgender people assaulting cisgender people in bathrooms and so this I was quoting this one study it says the right that is what is being politicized is that if you have a law in saying that you know protecting trans people in their uses the bathrooms that that will cause them to be able to get in there and attack people okay and so these are a number of studies that say that there is no there is no current evidence that granting transgender individuals access to gender corresponding restrooms result in an increase in sexual offenses that's pretty clear that's pretty clear right and I mean I think of Coraline I can't imagine her ever being violent ever yeah I mean it just wasn't part of her personality at all right it's apparently Julia Serrano goes into the myths the history of these myths right there's a lot of times when you it's when society is changing people get frightened and they create these stories about a certain group and they blame that fear for all kinds of great change it's the othering yeah it's the othering yeah so but they go on to say that research in social sexuality research in social policy says in their study while there is no empirical evidence to indicate that transgender people pose a greater risk of being sexually harassed than cisgender people people are routinely harassed and even assaulted by cis people in such settings so not that's kind of ironic right they're actually suffering from the thing that they're being accused of being sexually harassed or physically assaulted in public restrooms these experiences impacted respondents education employment health and participation in public life so it is the opposite so just so our listeners know I mean this is I got all of this online it is not hard to find this information it is very easily accessible okay so that's the bathroom thing and then another myth is that this came up during the election a lot is that millions of children are using hormones and that this type of care is being used for the benefit of the children and that is not true right there actually aren't really that many transgender adolescents are frequently cited as a huge and growing population and it finds that despite fears of their over medicalization transgender adolescents are very rarely prescribed hormones and puberty blockers right so my husband has a workmate who said well I didn't vote for Trump but I'm going to go to kindergarten right and so this is not true and the study the reason they can know this it's very hard to get this information is they study private insurance claims I think that's very very clever of them and that not a single patient under age 12 received hormones there's probably more hormones in their milk right now than they're getting prescribed by a doctor don't they inject chicken and stuff like that with hormones yeah and then this one you can speak to this really hit me hard is that at the very end of all these studies they say you have to imagine what it's like to be a trans youth you need to come to terms with your own identity then reach out to a patient or caregiver then you need to find a provider who will provide it you need to have insurance that'll cover it and you need to live in a state where it's allowed so tons of barriers to care already exist for you and we expected the rates to be low but we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we didn't expect it to be low and we