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The person being interviewed shares some background information about themselves. They discuss their upbringing in the Deep South, the racial divide in their neighborhood, and their experiences with law enforcement. They also talk about their parents' immigration to the US from South Korea and their father's career as a doctor. They mention the lack of community in their neighborhood and the occasional gatherings with other Korean families. Okay, I think it's recording. Okay. First question, tell me about yourself. What are some defining qualities you'd like me to know about? What career path did your educational background lead you down? We'll start with that. So first question, let me back up. What are some defining qualities you'd like me to know about? First, I am a 50-year-old Asian American female. I was born in Albany, New York, in 1973, and eventually moved down to Albany, Georgia, and was raised there, about an hour from the Florida-Georgia line. So it was in the Deep South, and there was a huge racial divide. I do remember the house that I first grew up in. I remember the neighbors being primarily Caucasian and were very warm and welcoming. But then when I was nine, just before I started third grade, I moved into a much bigger, beautiful house, and the neighbors were very, very cold and were very distant. And it actually took ten years before the neighbors started to come over and talk to my parents. I think one of the neighbors, what happened was his son died in a motorcycle accident. He came into the emergency room. My father was the ER doctor, and my father tried to save him. And I think he was alive for a little while but eventually died, and I think that neighbor appreciated it. So one day he came over and started explaining to my parents about the gutters around the house and how you had to clean them periodically throughout the year. And so he walked back over later on that day with a ladder and showed my mom and dad how to clean the gutters, and that started the neighbors talking to my parents. But it took ten years. So I'm first-generation Korean, and during my younger years, while I was in school, I didn't really have much exposure to police, law enforcement. It wasn't until I went off to college that I got my first taste of it. I think I was 20 years old. No running with the laws before 20? No, never. I had a car with no insurance, and I had a Georgia driver's license, not an Indiana driver's license. It was a really, really, really hot summer day, and I wanted to go to Dairy Queen and get something, which was only like a block and a half from my house, and it was really hot. And I got a drink, and on my way back, I hit a telephone pole because my drink spilled all over me. And I looked down, and when I looked down, I hit a telephone pole. Oh, no. And I was like less than a block from the house. Someone called the police. And they towed and impounded my car, and that started a huge roller coaster because in order to get your driver's license, you had to have a birth certificate. In order to have a birth certificate, you had to have a driver's license proving who you were. And so that went on for months. I asked my parents if I could have a copy of my birth certificate. In order to get your birth certificate, you need to have your Social Security card, and my parents had both, and they refused to give it to me. So for months, I didn't have a car. I didn't have a way to get to class. So it was just a huge, vicious cycle. I finally called Albany, New York, which was where I was raised, and I called Vital Records, and they told me what information they needed, along with a check of $27. And I mailed it to them, and I finally got my birth certificate. Oh, so you had to jump through a lot of hoops to get there. Yeah. And then after I got my birth certificate, then I got my Indiana ID, not a driver's license, because you had to take the test, the written and the driving portion of the test, which I eventually got. But I remember when I – that was my first taste of dealing with law enforcement, and that was horrible, because I had to go to court. The judge wasn't very nice. The judge wasn't nice? No. He wasn't very nice at all. Was it something he said? Was it his tone? Oh, he was annoyed. He was definitely annoyed by me. Did he let you ask questions in court? No. I think I was too scared to talk to him or to say anything. It was just his attitude that was off. Yeah, and, you know, he sided with the cop. Heck, I would have sided with the cop, too, because what I did was wrong, driving without a driver's license or car insurance. So that was a double whammy. So I had to pay, like, a hefty fee. We didn't have the money. We didn't have a car. And so we were just barely getting by. So your father had to walk back and forth from the restaurant. He did that for a couple of years before we finally managed to save enough money to get another hole-in-the-wall car. It wasn't a very reliable car. We just bounced around from unreliable car to another unreliable car. So fast forward, I don't know, 20 years later, I started doing jury duty. And it seemed like every two or three months I was getting a notification for jury duty. Oh, my. So I called the number on the card, because you get a postcard in the mail, and it'll say, like, call this number after 5 p.m. the day before. You're supposed to show up for jury duty. And it always would say that I didn't need to go in, because, you know, the plaintiff made some kind of plea deal, so you didn't have to go. But I was getting them for, like, four years straight every two to three months. So finally I called Indianapolis. I called their courthouse, and I spoke with somebody, and I was like, you know, I understand this is my civil duty, and to be honored, but it seems like I get picked for this every two to three months. And she's like, well, some mathematician came up with this algorithm, and it decides who gets selected for jury duty. And I said, well, can you ask him to refigure his algorithm, because I'm being called every two to three months, and it's supposed to be you're called once every four years. Interesting. So other than that, and their traditional speeding ticket. Yeah, but not too many run-ins with the law. No, I have the utmost respect for them. They kind of terrify me, so I don't want to mess with them. Okay, well, thank you for the background information. That was a lot. Moving on to the second question. When did your parents immigrate to the U.S.? When and why was it important for them? So my parents both came from South Korea, I think in a little town north of Seoul. No, south. They lived south of Seoul. And it was an arranged marriage. My father was a medical student, or graduated from medical school, and my mother, I think she was an accountant, I'm not 100% sure. Back in those days, going to college wasn't a priority. So they got married, and within two or three months after they got married, or maybe six months after they got married, my father left for New York, where he did his internship. And he was there for about six months, and then he sent for my mother. And I do believe that she came kicking and screaming, not literally, but she was very unhappy and very angry that she was being forced to come to the U.S. The whole game plan was that my father was going to just learn, do his internship here, and then go back to Korea and open up a clinic. Well, he didn't end up doing that. Instead, he asked for my mother, because he realized there was more of an opportunity in the U.S. So he moved here probably in the very late 1960s, maybe 1968 or 1969. My older brother, Peter, was born in 1970, 1971. I was born in 1973. So my father, when he completed his residency, mailed either 160 or 180 resumes across the U.S., and only one responded back with an offer. So, like I said, I was born in Albany, New York, and we moved from Albany, New York, to Albany, Georgia. And that's where my father was a doctor for over 30-some years, close to 40, I think. And he retired there and grew old and passed away March of 2020 in Albany. What did you think of the neighborhood you grew up in, and how did having immigrant parents affect your sense of community and friends in that area? Well, it's deep south, so it was predominantly white. Albany, Georgia was predominantly white back in the 1970s and 80s. And I think it was like maybe 80% Caucasian and like 18% African American. And then there was a small, maybe it was more African American, but the Korean Asian community was very, very small in Albany. So Albany was a growing town back then. But then I think in the 1990s, Albany became more predominantly African American. And then the next town over, which was Leesburg, became like the Caucasian place. And it became like the place to, if you wanted to have a great education and to raise a family, and for it to be safe, you moved to Leesburg. So slowly, Caucasian people from Albany sold their house and moved to Leesburg. So the streets, the area that I grew up in when I was nine, just before I started third grade, it was all doctors. All doctors lived across the street. I believe there was a surgeon who my mom became very close friends with. And then next door was a gastrointestinal doctor. Down the road was a foot doctor. There were multiple doctors on my street growing up. But in the beginning, like I said, no one talked to us. And there was never really a sense of community. At least I never felt it. Maybe my mom did. Because I do remember getting together a few times a month with other Koreans. We would like meet at multiple houses. So there were like a couple Korean families that lived a half hour away. And so we would go to their house and there would be other Korean families that would meet up. And we would literally spend the whole day there. We'd get there like in the morning, just after breakfast. And we would be there until like ten o'clock at night. And then we would drive home. So there would be like laughing, talking, cooking, eating. And then I do remember they would like, the adults would be downstairs and the kids would be upstairs. And there wasn't really like girls would play in one room, boys would play in the other. We all kind of played together. But I do remember we were told strict instructions and not coming downstairs. Well, we would peek and we would see like the moms and dads dancing to slow Korean music. I remember seeing that a few times. Aww. They'd be slow dancing together? Yeah, I actually forgot all about that. But yeah, so that happened I think a few times a month. How sweet and romantic. Sorry, I'm just imagining that. There was a few Korean families that I think grandmother would like do lunch with while I was in school. I know that she had like a group of ladies, Caucasian ladies that she would like meet for tennis or do lunch. And eventually I think they grew into like being a Bible study group. But as for me, I got made fun of a lot in elementary and middle school because I looked different, because I was Korean. So behind closed doors in our house, it felt like a very cold traditional Korean household. But outside, it just felt like we were trying to fit in. So my mom would decorate the house for Christmas. On the outside, it looked beautiful. It looked really pretty. But inside, there were years we didn't even have a Christmas tree. So I guess just to fit in, you know, and grandmother made all the decorations. Like she would, because you know how high the windows were from off the ground, even though it was a ranch style house, they were pretty high off the ground. And so she like made these wreaths with like pine cones and lights. And then she would like nail them to the windowsill and like have them going outside the house. They were beautiful. And she did it with all the windows. They were beautiful. So your parents very much had the mentality of fitting in, trying to, you know, fully embrace the American holidays and cultural systems and whatnot. Yeah, their mentality was because we look different, you have to speak just like a white person. But you have to work harder than them so that you can eventually fit in. So academically, Peter, my older brother, and my younger brother, Albert, did exceptionally well. They're both, well, my older brother used to be a doctor, a rheumatoid arthritis doctor. And I believe my younger brother is an oncologist. Yeah. So, and he actually married a pathologist. So, and then with my daughter, my dad being an ER doctor, I came from a family of doctors, but academically, I didn't do very well. I didn't meet my mom's standards. So I grew up to get a bachelor's in psychology, but it took me a long time to get that bachelor's degree because I didn't have the support from my mom. So financial, emotional, mental support that, you know, I think a typical college student would need. I didn't have that. So it was a struggle to get my bachelor's degree. It took me 10 years to get it. Because then I would put it on my credit card, and then I would have to drop out for like a year, year and a half to pay off my credit card. And then I would go back. That went on for years. And then finally, my older brother stepped in, and he helped me. He taught me how to study, because honestly, I didn't know how to study. And he taught me how to deal with stress. And he taught me how to save money. He taught me the banking system and how they work. So he actually taught me a lot. So did your experience growing up in that neighborhood impact the way you think about the U.S. immigration system or the legal system in general? Like, was there any experience your parents had being immigrants? Like, did they have to jump through a lot of hoops to get their status as being American citizens? Was that a struggle? I don't actually know. I don't know any of that. I don't know what they went through. I do know that they got made fun of a lot. I mean, it could be the littlest thing as ordering pizza from Pizza Hut. My brother had to, like, place the order, because they would make fun of my mom or my dad if they would place the order. So Peter, I remember Peter would call, and then my dad and Peter would go pick up the pizza, and Peter would go in and get the pizza. So they would make fun of your parents? Yeah, and then hang up the phone. Oh my God. Yeah, my mom and dad loved Pizza Hut growing up. I do remember, like, birthdays going there. Were there any other scenarios where you saw, you know, your parents being disrespected like that? Not from the police. I think it's because they knew that my dad was a doctor. So they respected him. Yeah. But from everyday average people, yeah, I think that they were... That probably heavily affected your parents' mental health, I'm sure. Because it was probably very isolating, deep south, you know, not being fully fluent in the language, at least in the case of your mother. I think it affected my mother more than my father. My father had the mentality of, keep your head down and just work hard. And I think back in the 70s and 80s and 90s, that worked. Yeah. American dream. Yeah, that actually worked. Unfortunately, now it's not like that. It's a little different. It's a lot different. More competitive, more tech-focused. Yeah. Yeah. And there's no guarantee after you get your degree that there will be a job. That you can find a job. But back in the 60s, 70s, and 80s, you could graduate from high school and get a good job working in a factory and be able to support a family of four or five. It's not like that anymore. No, it's not. Did you and your family feel as though you belonged where you were living down in Albany? Did you find a sense of belonging there? And you could speak for your family or you could speak for yourself. Was there a sense of belonging at all? Or was it always, do you feel like you had to put on an act? I don't really know about my parents. I don't think I ever did. And the reason why is because when I was 14, I went off to boarding school. My brother was very, very academically successful. So when I came into the picture, they thought there was something wrong with me. And they would treat me differently because they knew how Peter was. So my parents decided that they would send me somewhere where I could flourish on my own, which I did. Going to boarding school was probably the best thing I went through. So did you find that sense of belonging in boarding school? I did. Freshman and sophomore year and then my junior year, the boarding school dissolved. And so I moved in with a family. And I didn't feel like I belonged there. And when I went off to college, my parents didn't help me move into my college dorm room like your mom did. So that feeling of belonging or being with a family, I never really felt that. And I still haven't felt that. So basically they thought that their other son, Peter, he's so academically advanced, could meet all of their standards. Then their second child, you, you know, couldn't meet those exact same standards. So they just figured, oh, let's ship her off to boarding school since she's not meeting what we want. That's terrible. And when I went off to boarding school, I never went back home after that. I mean, I'd go home briefly for the summer, but I never left the house. I stayed in the house. So no one knew. A lot of people didn't know that my mom and dad had a daughter because I was kept hidden. So it was probably incredibly isolating when you would go home over breaks and you didn't have friends that you could go home to. And I'm sure you felt as though there was a hole missing there because I'm sure other friends at your boarding school would talk about being excited to go home and see family or friends. And I can't imagine how isolating that would have been. I hated going home. And do you think that these high expectations that they had, you know, and them hiding you as a result of not meeting those, do you think that those expectations were as high as they were because they were in the United States? Because they were in a foreign place? Yeah, probably. Peter was able to meet those expectations. Albert struggled, but he got there with the help of my brother, with the help of Peter. But Peter was able to meet any and all expectations my mom had in front of him. But, you know, it's a whole other story. His mental health, I think, is severely damaged. But that's for another day. Yeah. So have you ever, slight change in direction of question, have you ever participated in a court proceeding before? If so, what was that experience like? Like I said, I've been summoned for jury duty because you get a postcard in the mail probably over 20 times in my very brief 50 years of life. But I've never got picked. Like I went as far as to go to court. I would sit, the judge would ask me a series of questions along with the two attorneys. But that's as far as it went. I never got picked for jury duty. Wow. Interesting. Bit of a deeper question here. In your mind, what does the law embody? Do you think it's a level playing field characterized by justice, fairness, and equality? Or do you think it's an uneven playing field filled with corruption, prejudice, and inequality? I would like to think that we live in a very just, fair society. Do I believe that it is? No, I don't think it's fair. I think that it's very corrupt. I think that it's... Now, having said that, I do believe there are some very good cops out there. Some lawyers and what not. Yes. And judges. I think that there are some really good ones out there. But I think that there's more corrupt judges, lawyers, and police officers out there. Sure. But like I said, I keep to myself. I try my best not to break any laws like speeding. So you kind of just keep your head down and do your own thing? Yeah. I mean, I've not really ever had a negative experience with a police officer. I've had very limited exposure to lawyers and even more limited exposure to judges. Okay. Do you think the law is present in your everyday life? Or do you view the law as a more removed form of power that is distant and more out of reach? Well, I feel like that's a loaded question because of where I currently live. I live in the deep woods, off the beaten path, and I only leave my house once a week. So to me, it feels very far and removed. Yeah. Like law doesn't really play a big part of your everyday life. No, not here because I'm in the confines of my own house. Yeah, and you work from home. Yes. And I only leave my house once a week to go buy groceries and see the outside world. So in what scenario would you turn to the law, if at all? Do you have trust in the system? Like if you ran into a predicament, would you feel comfortable calling the police or turning to a lawyer? Or is your mentality, I'm just going to figure it out myself? Oh gosh, no. I don't think I would try and figure it out myself. I would call a neighbor and ask for help. So you would turn to a neighbor before you would turn to law enforcement? I would, yes, only because... Where you live? Yes. Now if I was in Fort Wayne, I probably would call the police and then turn to my kids, my adult kids, second. So, okay. Next question. Growing up with immigrant parents and watching them go through that transition in a new country, was there anything about the court process? Then again, I don't know if this applies to you, but anything about the court process that troubled or bothered you? In what ways were your parents ever wronged in a legal situation? Was justice ever obtained? Because I'm assuming, because your parents were immigrants, they were probably taken advantage of by the law at some point or another. Were they ever wronged by the legal system? And if so, was justice obtained? I don't think so. So I know that there were two times in my father's medical career where he was sued. One time, it was like a two-year-old little boy who got hit by a car. So he went to the hospital, my father checked him out, and he was discharged home. And the next morning, his mom found him dead in his bed. So they sued my father for malpractice. So the statute of limitations to sue my father in Georgia at that time was seven years. So they waited until the last possible minute, and then they sued him. And I think it took over a year to go to court over it. I do remember my mom being stressed out about it. But he ended up winning. I don't know what the second time he was sued, but he also won that case. So, okay. In what ways, if any, has your neighborhood and or friends supported you during an encounter or an experience with the law? But since you haven't really had an encounter or experience with the law, I guess this question doesn't really apply. So we'll move on to the next one. How has your career affected, because you're a social worker. How has your career affected how you interact with or view the law? Because you do kind of work alongside CPS, and I guess that's an extension of the law. Yeah, I've worked with CPS quite a bit. Let me go back. So I've also, even though I've had limited exposure to the police, personally had limited exposure. But I have called the police numerous times to ask to do a wellness check on a client. I've done that multiple times. And I would request for a CIT officer, which I forget what CIT stands for, but it's basically a police officer who's been trained in mental health. So I would request for a CIT officer to go do a wellness check on this client, give the name, their address, and the reason why I'm requesting a wellness check be completed. Okay. I've made that phone call multiple times. I never actually met the officer that did it, but that was the extent of it. I probably did that more than I worked with CPS. CPS, I would usually give the clients a heads up when I leave here, I'm calling CPS. That maybe happened less than 10 times in the 17 years that I worked for an agency in Fort Wayne. So none of those situations really affected how you interact or view with the law? No. Okay. No. I did have a case where I had a client who had, she wasn't very easy to talk to. She always seemed angry. It was an African American, actually I think she was biracial. Her mother was Caucasian and her father was African American, but she had a chip on her shoulder and she was very difficult to communicate with. And she wasn't consistent on meeting with me. She was supposed to meet with me weekly and she was never consistent. Just when I was getting ready to close her case, because every time I'd go to her house, she was never there. Or she wouldn't answer her phone call or text message. So if you have no interaction with a client, then after three months you can close her case. Well, I was on the verge of closing her case and then she reached out to me. So I went to her home and I met with, there was one particular visit where the attorney was there, her mother, her father, and I think she had a brother and a sister that were all there. And they were waiting for me when I got there. They had already had a meeting. So she explained to me that maybe two months before that meeting, it was on a weekend, she went to the bar. And she went with her sister and her sister was there. And she had a gun with her. She said she didn't know why she brought the gun, but she brought it with her to the bar. And a fight broke out in the bar. She knew the people that were fighting. Well, she pulled out her gun. She said that she raised it overhead towards the ceiling and fired a couple of shots. But somehow she said she doesn't remember lowering the gun to arm length and she shot someone. She said she doesn't remember doing that. Well, that person ended up dying. So she was facing up to 25 years in prison. One wrong decision and it could ruin the rest of your life. So she wanted to know what her options were with her child, who was a toddler. I think he wasn't even two at the time. So she ended up going to trial. She lost. And she actually, I think she got more than 25 years. She got more than that. So she did go to jail? She did go to jail. For over 25 years? Mm-hmm. For over 25 years? Yeah. So I met with her one last time before she was going to prison. And all she did was sit there and just cry. And I sat with her. And she does not have any recollection of pointing the gun down and shooting? No. And shooting. She claimed she didn't. But I think there were surveillance videos that showed that she did. She doesn't remember. She said she didn't even know the person she shot. Was she drunk? Had she been drinking? Yes, she had been drinking. Okay, well that'll explain it right there. So she was under the influence. Did they not provide her any sort of... But she said she wasn't drunk. Oh. But they caught her on camera shooting the gun at the person. She didn't do it. Well, that's unfortunate. Next question for recapping the discussion. Last four questions. How has your parents' status as immigrants to the U.S. intersected with your overall experience in the U.S.? Are there any flaws you've noted within the country's legal system more broadly? Or conversely, any positives? But I guess we can break this. That's kind of a loaded question. So I guess I'll turn this over to you. This is the tough part. So to me, I feel as though it sucks being an Asian American. Really? Yeah. I don't like being Asian American. So when I worked as a social worker, and I would meet with primarily the people I worked with, the clients were low socioeconomic status people that were on food stamps and receiving public health insurance and getting TANF. And you have to like get them to trust you. And so it takes time because these people tend not to be very trusting. Or you get the other extreme where they're too trusting. So it took a while to establish that rapport with them. And I remember, and I think I even mentioned to you multiple times where they would ask me, so do you see yourself as black or white? And I would say, the last time I checked, pretty sure I'm Asian. And so they'd be like, okay, well, I think you're black. And I'm thinking to myself, no, unfortunately, I'm Asian. I don't see myself anything else, but I wish I was something else. I don't know if that answers your question, but that's how I feel. I don't feel a connection with any race or ethnicity. I don't feel, I don't feel, no. And to be honest with you, I think COVID made it all worse. I think COVID just made it 10 times worse. So, you know, yesterday, we went to Nashville Zoo and they did that performance. Did you hear how all of these people were like clapping and laughing? And I felt uncomfortable because I felt like because I felt like they were being made fun of. I mean, none of it was funny, but why were people laughing? Oh, during the performance? Yeah. I don't remember exactly. I don't know. I just, I felt uncomfortable for them. I don't remember feeling uncomfortable during the performance because, I mean, the performers were smiling as well. They looked like they were having a good time. But I do find it interesting that a lot of Americans want to enjoy certain aspects. They want to pick certain aspects from certain cultures and indulge in them, but then reject other parts of other cultures. Sure. Like, sure, a lot of Americans might like Middle Eastern food, like the halal food carts, you know, the chicken shawarmas and gyros and whatnot, but then reject other parts of Middle Eastern culture. Perhaps they don't want to confront, you know, the U.S. military invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq during the War on Terror campaign, or they don't want to acknowledge, you know, let's say, 9-11 policies that basically, like, wrote into law various torture techniques that they didn't want the general public to know were happening. And also, things like Islam. There are a lot of people that, after 9-11, if you wore a hijab, you were a target. So I see exactly what you're saying. Americans want to enjoy the foods of other cultures a lot of times and other little aspects like that, but not fully embrace the real history of those cultures. You know, like now K-pop is huge, for example. Everybody wants to sing K-pop, and they want to go eat Korean food, but do they know anything about the Korean War and what the U.S. military did? Yeah. Yeah. So... So I see what you're saying. Yeah. It's kind of a tangent. Let me see the next question. What changes would you like to see enacted to improve the legal system, if at all? Do you think there are any changes that need to be made to the legal system? Oh, of course. I feel like there's a lot of changes that need to be made, but unfortunately it's so corrupt. It's a lost cause. You feel like it's a lost cause? Like, even if they wrote changes, it's one thing to write them. It's another thing for people to actually follow them. Right. It's hard to enforce justice. Yeah. And I think it's mostly geared towards benefitting, like, the top 10%. Mm-hmm. The wealthy, those that already have power, just perpetuating that. Yeah, I feel like it only benefits the top 10%. That makes sense. What advice would you give a friend or family member with an upcoming trial date? What's one piece of advice you would pass on to them, and why? So if you knew somebody was going in for a trial date... What I'd be thinking is, it sucks to be you. I'm very sorry. Because it's a long process. Yeah. It's lots of paperwork. It's lots of extended dates and waiting. That's why I'm like, I'm so sorry, but it really sucks to be you. That's the first thing that would go through my mind. Being someone who's never had to go to trial, I don't know if I have any words of advice other than I'm here for you for emotional support. Mm-hmm. Makes sense. And then our final question, reflecting on our discussion, what story of law do you align most with? Law as majestic, operating by known and fixed rules in specific spheres of the realm of everyday life, or law as a game? Rather than existing outside of daily life, we are living it through our everyday commonplace activities. Or lastly, the third story, law as a product of power, something to be seen as arbitrary, volatile, or unpredictable. This often leads people to resolve issues themselves without involving the law at all. And I know that was a loaded question. That's very loaded. Can you read the three stories of law again and see which one you most align with and why? Definitely not the last one. I don't think I... You wouldn't take law into your own hands, in other words. I don't think I could kill someone. I would hire someone to kill that person, maybe. I would be willing to do that, but I don't want blood on my hands. If something happened to any of my daughters, I think I would go crazy. And that's when I would want to hire someone to go find that person and kill that person. That's how crazy I think I would go. Good to know. That's the question, which... So you said definitely not the last one. No. You said law as a product of power. So then the two other ones, which of those two do you think you're most with? Maybe law as a game? Well, I don't know if I would say that I align with them, but maybe this is how I view law, which is, I think it is a game. I think it just depends on the type of offense it is. I mean, I don't know if it's like... What is it called? A felony or a misdemeanor? Misdemeanor. Okay, so I've heard of cases where it's a misdemeanor and they punish them to the fullest extent possible, but then I've also seen where it's like a felony and it felt like a slap on the hand. So I don't really know, but then again, I don't really know all aspects of that particular case. Because there's other factors going into it. Maybe there's money being dealt under the table and that's why the felony is maybe that person comes for money. Who knows? But yeah, I think in a lot of ways, law can be a game. Because if whoever has the most power going into the court, you're going to have the upper hand. Because guess what? If you can afford a private attorney with more connections, your chances are you're going to come out of there with a favorable outcome versus if you have to use a public attorney. A lot of times, public attorneys maybe don't even show up. I've heard stories that sometimes they don't even show up on time. So in that way, law can be almost unpredictable, which is a third story. But I agree with your second one. Do you remember Heather Nellam? Yeah. So she was in Kylie's graduating class and then her younger sister was in Chelsea's graduating class. So Heather died her junior year right around the Christmas break. She was on her way home from spending the evening with a girlfriend and a drunk driver hit her about a mile from the bar at an intersection. Her mother actually drove by that car accident thinking, oh, I hope that person's okay. It wasn't until a half hour later she realized it was her daughter. That drunk driver came from a very wealthy family and had already had two or three DUIs previously. What happened to this person? I don't know. I just know that he shouldn't have been behind the wheel in the first place. The Bishop Dwanger community were up in arms over all of this. I don't know what happened to him but I do know that he had already done it like two or three times before. I'm sure the guilt of killing the high school student will never leave him and that's probably enough punishment. Oh, I don't think so. Okay, no, not enough punishment but that is a punishment. An eternal one, I think, that will never leave him. Hopefully justice will serve. You don't know what happened there? I don't know whatever happened. But talking about all this just reminded me of her. That was a sad case. Very, very young to die. And she was African-American. Well, actually she was biracial. Her mother was Caucasian. Thank you for your time in this interview. It was about an hour. Just under an hour. Thank you for the responses. Thank you.