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The transcript is a conversation from a podcast called Cannibal, featuring hosts discussing their morning routines, parenting experiences, and upcoming events. They talk about painting nails red symbolizing resilience and courage. The hosts discuss a studio space for podcasting and the idea of a live event. The conversation shifts to motherhood and raising children, touching on personal anecdotes and experiences. The hosts engage in light banter and share personal stories throughout the podcast. Recording, audio. Yeah, hopefully that is. I just want to breathe. It's too hard. Yeah, yeah, if I talk, I'll just talk. Okay, recording time one. Recording time two. So guys, so the one thing is, the mic does keep falling. So, like, do you need me to speak into it, Shadi? Because if that's the case, then I'm just going to hold it. It doesn't matter, but then I must just know, if you need me to talk into it, then I must just hold it. Okay. Okay. Okay, that's what's the state. What time do you need to leave? So we'll talk for an hour. Is that still work for you? Okay, cool. An hour, okay. What? Okay, cool. Okay, that's cool. Yeah, I want to put it. Yep. Very good. Welcome to Cannibal, a podcast where we talk about race, privilege, and progress in South Africa, and soon to be the world. You might notice that I am in studio by myself today. I'm flying solo, as it were, because Bessie missed her flight this morning coming into Cape Town. And so here we are, you and me, and I am really alone, right? So that's our own brand, though. If we don't leave ourselves in the wrong airport, we leave our bags. So yes, this is very normal. And so I want to welcome you today to the studio. A sort of recent friend, an incredible entrepreneur, a philanthropist, a woman who loves women, Greta Khalisi. I'm so excited to welcome you to the Cannibal studio today. Thanks for being here. Yay. Yeah, I am very much hoping so. So I, I mean, you and I have been swapping stories this morning about how our days started, and I thought I want to share with you how mine started. So I woke up this morning and had to get my kids ready for school. I've got two adopted children, which is not relevant to the story right now, but it will be later on. So I thought I'd mention it now. Anyway, so I'm busy getting them ready for school, and I think I told my daughter to put on her school shoes conservatively 18 times, right? Anyway, so she's carrying her shoes to the car because she didn't put them on at home the 18 times I asked her to. And we get to school, and they hop out of the car, the two of them, and they walk in through the gates. And then I look down at the passenger side where she was sitting, and there's one shoe, not two shoes, and not no shoes, but one shoe. So I'm thinking, did she walk in with one shoe or did she walk in with no shoes? And I'm also thinking, how am I going to juggle getting back to school to give her the shoes? Because if I don't, I'm not a very good mom, and we don't want to be a bad mom because, you know. Yeah, exactly. We're going to get there. And then I'm like, but also, what went through my child's brain to walk into school without the shoes or with just one shoe on? We're a pretty chaotic family. So how did your day start today, Rach? My day started actually pretty well. I started a new routine recently of waking the kids up with classical music, and it sounds a little strange. But I recently did a book launch with a guy named Richard Sutton. He's written a book called Shift Happens. And he's got some amazing tools in there that I really want to kind of investigate a little bit more, try a little bit more, and I think that they will be very helpful tools for my kids for life one day. So that's why I'm doing them today. And so I started with classical music, Morning Star, right? And I open up the curtains, because natural light is also really good for a Sunday morning. Open up the curtains, open up the door to the room, and put on some classical music. Everyone got up pretty quickly. Everyone was pretty prepared for school. And I did school drop, which went pretty well as well. Like yesterday was an absolute nightmare. And then I went quickly. I decided that doing a triathlon seems to be a great idea. And so I needed to get a ride in the sea. So I found my swim. I needed to do a ride, and I'm doing my run tomorrow and another run on Sunday. So I needed to get a ride. So I rode, and first we struggled with my bike. The wheel was not staying on my bike, which was a bit of a problem. And then as soon as I got to the top of the glen, I realized my back tire is stuck. I did not have a problem. Was that when you messaged me to say that you were running a bit late? I was going to be a little bit late, and I tried to ride down as quickly as possible to make sure that I got back on my feet and actually make the podcast without any extra marks on my face. I love it. I love this classical music. Is that on brand or not brand? It's new on brand. It's probably not normally. It could be at some point changed to Friday again. So that was the situation in the morning. That was changed very quickly because they don't understand. They're very shocked by the classical music situation. But it's a very confident feeling. So anyway, I'm trying to think of it. I love it. I love it. Okay, so in front of you are some nail polishes. As you know, we love to paint one hand of nails red. The question we get is why. Well, I think that red is such a resilient color. It's bold. It's courageous. It's like you can't look away. And so that's what we do at Colorful. We have the kinds of conversations that are so necessary that you can't look away from. And it's bold, and it's vulnerable, and I know that's very – since we're talking about being on brand, I know that's also very on brand for you. So would you like to pick one for me? And can I advise you not to pick that one because I think it's almost finished. So that already eliminates something. Pick this one. No, don't pick that one. I'll pick that one. It does not feel very pink. It does feel a bit pink. It's just because I couldn't find a third red bottle. So actually, by process of elimination, I think you're right. So we're going with Catrice and work with gel up here. And it's not gel, by the way. It just looks like gel. Okay, and I'm painting my – You are painting your very own, and you only have to pick one hand. Okay, and I'm doing it right now. And you're going to do that right now. Because I'm definitely painting my left hand because I think it looks a bit hard. If I try to paint my left hand, can I cut the mic and reset it? You can try, but it's going to keep falling. So I think I might need to hold it. Okay. Can I cut and reset the machine? I mean, you can try. We can try to reset it, but it doesn't seem to – I mean, we've tried a few things. So I think I'm happy to just hold it and just wait one second. Because I'm going to ask you a question while we – It's still fine. Do you know what would really help is if you stop it at that point. Up there is where it keeps – So that as well, but then this. Okay. How cute is this studio, though? Right? And so they've just opened. Charlene wants to use this as a studio that she rents out for podcasting. Yeah. Very cool. So I'm trying to – Do you think I could get somewhere to be in this next week? Do you think you would come out here? If I say – Do you think I can be in – Because I'm like, he's in town, and you know he likes to – Everything just here in this little space. Do you reckon? Okay, cool. I'll try to bribe him. I'll be like, oh, I'll give you free coffee. Is it? Okay. And I'll be like, do I not want to? But the idea is also to co-create this live event. So, because there's a coffee shop, and then ideally to get the sound to go through, so people that are in the coffee shop soundproof, people that are in the coffee shop can actually feel like a friend and family, can come and sit and listen and – To the conversation. Yeah. So that's kind of – And then have a whole – That's very cool. Are you guys comfortable? Yes. So we're just going to pick a cut from where it was, and then we won't interrupt you again. Okay, cool. That's perfect. Thank you. I just wanted you to be comfortable. Thank you. It doesn't look great on the show, but – I really don't think anybody can – You're the only one who's seen that test. Is the audio? Yeah, still rolling. I cut from mine. Okay. Three is rolling. One, two, three, rolling. Ready? I'm ready. So, Rachel, you know what is coming next. We have three nail polishes in front of you on this table. We like to ask our guests, whichever gender you identify with, to paint one hand of nails red. The question we get is, why red? I'm kind of like, why not? But also, because it's a kind of resilient, bold, courageous colour, like you can't look away from red. And that's the kind of conversations that we love to have on Colourful, the kinds of conversations that might feel uncomfortable, that might feel really vulnerable, which I know is important to you, but that really connect us. And so I would like to invite you to pick one of those three I would also deeply – yes, go with that one, because that one I think might be finished. So it would be awkward. I also feel like this one is pink. It is. It's not red. It would feel great. Yeah. It just needs a bit of a – Well, we have – I'm changing my nails now. You're going to paint your nails now? And you don't know whether I have nail polish remover at the end of this interview for you or not, so you might just walk through the day with one hand. I don't hate it. It somehow comes that red is my favourite colour. Oh, really? I don't know if you know this, but if you come and anyone asks, I should bring some, like, Mother's Day cards and say, my favourite colour is red. And I'm like, I think this is my favourite colour of red. That's so cute. When I was young, I used to say my mum was thirsty. I had no idea what age she was. And she was 30 for, like, 10 years. So I was like, thank you. Yeah, exactly. So, Reg, while you paint that hand of nails, one of the things that I would love to talk to you about today, since it also just seems to keep coming up already, is around motherhood and how we raise our children. And before I go there, I wanted to ask you, thinking back to when your kids were younger, and I know your children spend a whole bunch of sort of – I have to say that you're very lucky that I'm a female, and I can walk across the other side of the room. Yeah, you see, that's why you – because in the past, I've had to paint some people's nails for them. I literally get up and do that. So you are right. You are not wrong. So I was thinking to ask you, thinking back to when your kids were younger, and I know that your children are – there's quite a lot of age – what do we call it? Diversity. Diversity. Beautiful. So you might be thinking to different types of ages. But I would love to know what one or two books or movies were quite – were the types of stories that you love to share with your children. That's both to things like identity and inclusion and the kinds of stories that were meaningful. Yeah. I think what's been really important for me with my kids when it comes to like anything that they consume, like books, movies, music, everything, I try and always be very conscious, as much as possible include South African and local artists and curators and creators. And so a lot of South African books, and there's been some really beautiful children's books that have come out over the last couple of years that I think really have a solid representation of South Africa and South Africans. And there's one specifically, Wanda the Brave. Wanda the Brave. And she does a beautiful book about like kids' hair and like the different environments where you can get your hair done. And I actually recently went to my daughter's school for a book reading thing that they invited some parents to do. And I read Wanda the Brave. I just can't for the life of me think of the author's name now. And then from a movie perspective, because the kids are all very different ages, sometimes it is a little bit tricky finding something that's appropriate for everybody. Yeah. But I love movies like Hidden Figures. There was one recently that we watched with Emma Stone, maybe Maze or Maze or something. And that was such a really good movie. But, you know, also all of the cartoons and stuff. I just love conversations with nature. I love like engaging in things that cause like a conversation. I think you've – I mean, I've just been watching this progress. And listen, when we did Dan Korda, it was literally – it was like just find a nail in the – it was really just a suggestion of where the – I think so. I think so. Okay. Let's see. Very nice. When we did Kaedelangen the other day, he looked at it, and he goes like this. I was like, that's such a man way to hold your hands. Like – So, cool. Lovely. And I was thinking about that as well as I asked you that question. I love – I also love the South African stories. And the one that – one of the ones that was so pivotal in my – for my kids was – and, of course, it was Rafiduwe Mwathloli. And it's hard to say – no, what is it? Hello in 11 – no. So many ways to say hello. That's what it was. And I love that story. We actually interviewed her on the show. So, she was talking about how the influences both to create that kind of content. So, lovely. And I guess let's talk about motherhood, right? You and I had a chat outside about school pickup times. We had a very distinct conversation about WhatsApp groups. Tell me about that. What's a bad mom? I think the most important thing is to show up. Just show up. Yeah. And so, that's the standard that I've just kept for myself. I'm not going to nail it every single day. Sometimes I'm going to shout. Sometimes I have to apologize. You know, there's certain things that I'm not really great at. And I can acknowledge that and have that conversation with my kids. But I – it's really important for me to show up for them as much as possible. And so, all of the little things that we all love doing like Christmas carols and Christ giving and everything else that's in between. I think that's one of the big feelings, big things going on in their lives. Just to be there in presence and listen and hear what they're saying and then speak into it. I think it's just the most important thing. So, yeah. So, yeah. I think it's fundamentally important and showing up. I don't fall under the category of bad mom. I love that. But I am still curious about the concept of a bad mom. Do you think a bad mom and a bad dad are the same thing? Yeah. I think they could be. I think that it doesn't – I think that the expectation based on mom is far bigger than dad. I actually recently saw a post about you and I. The first conversation we have is around our kids and the end of year and how we manage everything. How many WhatsApp groups are you in? You go through the majority of those WhatsApp groups. Very few of them are actually the dads. They're all the moms. And so, yeah. I just find it's not equal. It's not equal putting the moms and dads. But do I think that they can both be bad? Sure. I think that there's definitely areas that parents are facing differences. Yeah. Yeah. I was – three days ago, I have – I'm very happy to say I have found a therapist to see because I really needed this. Let me just tell you, I really needed this. And I was lying on his – yeah. Like, really. So, I was lying there sobbing my eyes out saying I am trying to juggle all the things and not be a bad mom. And so, that's kind of why I'm drilling into it today because he said to me, but what is a bad mom? And I said, well, what if I can't make the sports game at 11 a.m.? Because I don't know why, but it's at 11 a.m. on a Friday. And he said, well, so what? So, I was like, no, but that's a bad mom. And all the moms around, they're going to be like, I wonder where she is. Oh, well, you know, she's doing her big corporate job. And then he said, is it a bad thing to have a corporate job? And I do feel that in some respects it is as a mom, certainly not as a dad. But as a mom, the excuse doesn't seem to hold. The excuse of I'm in a meeting that I can't get out of doesn't carry the same weight as if you are a dad in that circumstance. I don't know whether you felt anything similar. I agree to an extent. I just don't care what people think. And I think that that is where the shift of freedom happens. So, I think, like, going and considering, like, if I don't show up, like, all day, the mom is going to notice. Firstly, I think, no, they won't actually notice. And secondly, I think that if they did notice that you weren't there, they would be like, well, we completely understand why. Because she's got a job. She's working. And that's actually the majority of the case. I mean, like, my kids are super privileged to be able to go to really amazing schools. And there are not all the parents are working, you know, maxed out jobs every single day and do have a little bit more flexibility. But everybody is super understanding about the fact, like, if you can't show up, you're working. And I think that that is as important for your children to see as you going and being at the gala or at the sports day. I think it's as important for them to see you there and knowing that you also have a job and other privileges that you take with you. Yeah. Honestly, really. I mean, by the way, that's what my therapist did as well. So, well done. Naming that. Naming that. Yeah. Yeah. That was really cool. That's where we met it out, too. And I think the expectations to Sydney, but it doesn't have to be that way. So, yeah. Let's talk a little bit about adoption. So, I know that you and I both have adopted children. Our situations are slightly different. I adopted my children. I don't know their biological parents. I adopted them when they were babies. And I guess one of the things that I struggle with is being around parents of biological parents who say things like, who are their real parents? I find that a very difficult thing. Or when did you get them? It's not a nail polish. So, I find those kinds of questions quite challenging to deal with. What sort of questions do you find a little bit intrusive? No, I think probably the main one for me is the amount of times I've been asked if I'm a nanny. Are you a nanny? Or are they your kids? And also, there's a standard of grace that I think if you don't know, you don't know. And that's why conversations and podcasts like the Cardical Podcast are so important. Because there are resources now available to everybody to understand and to know better and be more conscious of the way that we ask questions and the way that we see things or hear things and what is appropriate and how is it appropriate to ask these sort of things. And I think that the question that really irks me the most is, are you their nanny? Or are they yours? And that's not just for my older two kids, but for my younger two as well because they're brown. And so, it's something that really does shake me. And I think that in the beginning when I used to kind of... Is this too loud? Thank you. I also get that question, are they yours? They just called me mum, so yeah. I think so too. No, why do you need to? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, they've got a body stress tension release thing. And then there's a Pilates studio and there's a whole bunch of things around here. It's all about wellness and there's alternative healing medicines. What do you call them? Yeah, all of that as well. Yeah, very cool. So it's like a slow launch that's happening now. Soft launch. Then there's a... I'm cool. I'm comfortable like this. Let's see. Oh, it's okay. It's all good. All good. Okay, cool. Yeah, okay. And I get that question quite a lot. Yeah, I guess like maybe, do you need to know? Is it so important to you to know if I'm a nanny or a mum or whatever? I just think like when I'm in a situation like that and I'm curious, like are they her kids? Or is that like a mixed family or whatever? It genuinely is out of curiosity and like that maybe we could connect. Like maybe they've got some stories. But I think that it just kind of came across and I'm like, oh, they're still kids. Like the way that you sometimes hear it is not always in the way that it's intended to be asked. And so I think sometimes be curious and maybe ask yourself. Yeah. Yeah. And if you do, maybe you can strike up a conversation first and find other ways to ask the question in a way that just doesn't feel as invasive. Yeah, I actually really love that. I think that's a really nice way of considering it. Here's a question that I haven't necessarily discussed openly before, but something that I've spent a lot of time reflecting on by myself, which is when I chose to adopt children of color, I really needed to consider what identity for them would look like. And being raised in a white family and as a white person in this country, I've enjoyed all the privileges. And so I really needed to question what it was that I was going to do differently and whether what I was doing differently would be in their best interests and how to support them through the fact that it is a more unique situation than not. When did you and did you come to that realization of your privilege and what the role that color plays in your mixed family? Too late. Yeah. Actually, I love the fact that you thought about those questions and you thought about your children's identity and their experiences before they were a part of your life. I didn't. And that's why when you said too late and you were so honest, I was like, thank you, because that was real. I thought, oh, cute little babies, everybody's going to love them. I didn't. I really only, really genuinely only started when I was open to domestic injustice building service after I had children. And I remember vividly being in Canal Walk at a watch shop and I'm very pro teaching children to be independent from as early age as possible. And I remember one of my older kids, their watch, one of my older kids, their watch has broken. And I had told them to go into a watch store and find out about a new battery and that kind of situation. But I was like, you go, I'll just wait up here. And I had like the whole crew, little ones get little. And so I was just waiting on the corner door. They walked in and I remember the staff almost immediately just looking at them down. Like it was a bit of a problem or like they were in there to do something else in the shop. And I was observing from the outside and I just, I kept watching it. I was like, well, are you going to go and ask for help? Like you have everybody else in the store. Are you going to ask, you know, what they need? And that just never happened. And it was just like, of course you're going to feel, of course they are going to feel uncomfortable to go into a store and ask for help. Yeah. Oh, it's okay. We can just carry on with that. It's fine. No, I was just thinking like, of course they're going to feel uncomfortable to go into a store to ask for help because that's the experience that they have. And that was one of my first memories of just realizing, yeah, no, this is a problem and I need to understand it and do better with it. I think the massive shift for me personally happened during that Black Matter movement. Yeah. I think that the conversations that were happening and the real push for an understanding from white people I think was so massive and so in all of our faces that we actually had no way, when I say we, we white people had no way to hide from that conversation. And so I really dove into it. Like, I sat with friends, I unpacked, I got resources, I wanted to understand. And I remember just feeling this massive weight of guilt and a heaviness that like, man, we've messed up. Like, man, we should have done better all these years. And I think over the years, I've learned to just have grace for myself. And a lot of other people, you know, during Black Lives Matter, I came across it on social media with friends, with family, everybody. And I'm like, how can you not support it? Like, how can you not be a part of it? How can you not understand it? And I think in doing so, I chased so many people away from the conversation, where actually people of color have the right to be angry and have the right to be disappointed and to show their anger and to confront it in that manner. It's those of us who have been awakened and are white, we need to be building the bridges between and be having a conversation about learning and understanding better. And I think that I wish I had done that a lot gentler and been more open to having conversations with people and creating spaces of learning. And in some ways I did. Like, I did a whole online thing with some amazing speakers and created a lot of space and awareness about where to get resources. But I do have some regrets about how I kind of went about that whole process. And it's just something that I've learned from, right? Like, sometimes we do things that we wish we had done better. And I've learned from it and try to be more conscious about the way that I approach conversations. And, you know, when you sit around a table and you hear someone say something that's a little off. Like, that's not the time and place at the table with everybody sitting there. That's pulling aside later and to have the great conversations I think is super important. Yeah, I think that during COVID, that was really the shift for me. And that really did implement and affect the way that I have tried to be raising my kids and to become a lot more aware and conscious of their experiences. And my role in making sure that they've got a real solid representation of faces that they can identify and where they feel safe and seen and represented. Seriously, Rach, there are so many parts in that that I would love to talk to you. But the one thing, probably overriding all of it, is to say that my journey was very similar. And I feel that same guilt and that same shame. In fact, it deeply affects me. I just wish I had done better, known more, been better. And I went through the same journey of, as soon as I realized, becoming incredibly angry with lots of people. And I did the same thing about driving them away rather than putting people closer to the conversation. And my standpoint at the time was, yeah, well, you have all these resources. Why are you not engaging with them? But me, two years ago, also had access to all the resources and didn't engage with them. And that's why I could let myself off for that. And I'm still not really going to. I agree with you about have grace for the journey. But I do feel that as white people, we really need to be doing more. And in the face of things like Black Lives Matter, to come back with All Lives Matter is just so counterintuitive. And I think that is why people, we need to invest time in understanding that. And here I can hear Sena talking, which is obviously not here today, but I can hear her say things like, it is not our job as people of color to teach you. You need to actually get off your butt and do the work. And there's no more sitting back. If you want to be a part of this country and if you want to stay here, and, in fact, if you want to live in the world, you really need to engage with this kind of content. You know what, at the end of the day, love is the whole purpose. Yeah. It's love. Yeah. And I think that love sounds nice. Like when you say the word, like it sounds nice. It's got a good, like, fluffiness to it and whatever. But when you're just, I mean, love is the whole purpose on its own. But when you just lift the mask to love, there's so many layers to loving someone and caring about somebody. And I just think that if we look at it from that mindset of, like, I want to love you. I share this country. I share this environment with you as a home. And so I want to understand your experience. I want to understand how I can honor that and how I can respect that journey. And I think that that's a really honorable, responsible thing as a human being. And I agree with you. White people 100% need to do better. I think those of us that know better need to be open to be sharing. Because when you say, like, or when I've said in the past, there's so many resources in so many places. Where do you go? That's the thing. And I think that that's why the colorful podcast is such an important conversation because this is a resource. I think that there's a lot out there that you actually don't know. Like, what is a good resource to read? What is a good resource to listen to? What's a good documentary to watch? I think that that's very practical. You've given me a great idea. We could put some of that kind of stuff out as colorful. Yeah. I think that, like, even in, I mean, in other podcasts I've listened to and I'm interested in the resources they have, that's really cool. Because I just think, like, people actually are keen. And they want to learn and they want to understand. I think it's just, like, it's overwhelming to know, like, where you go from there. You know, that's actually cool. We want to be a part of the conversation. Like, I want to be conscious of what I say. And, oh, that person is so well spoken. And, oh, they don't know that your hair looks so neat. You know, people don't actually realize that that's the problem. Because no one has told them or taught them. And so I think that being brave and being able to have those conversations and sharing resources, I think, is so incredible. But I think the majority of people genuinely have the need. The majority of people want to understand and want to do better. Yeah. I think so, too. And just one of the, you were telling me the story of when you sort of had that stark realization with the watch shop. I had the realization when we were at the airport and we were running late. And I ran with the children, so it was all fine. But a friend of mine said afterwards, you need to teach them that they can't run in airports when you're not there. And I thought, I actually had the audacity to ask why. And she was like, but they're a black person running through an airport. They're not allowed to do that. They will be stopped. And it really hit me that they were safe just because I was there, not as their mother, but as the white person in control of that situation. So I love this conversation. That is actually not what I planned on chatting about in this particular moment, and I'm so glad we did. Do you know what else I want to come to is a topic that I know is very close to your heart? And that is women. Women in corporate, women in work spaces, women in the home. And what it looks like to be a woman in all of those spaces. Tell me your thoughts. I really feel that society has created a completely unrealistic expectation on women who are expected to be a great wife, a great mom, have a great friendship group, be social regularly, look a certain way, act a certain way, be in therapy, have a great career. And then I think at times, and from my year especially, you experience something that's really hard. I recently, I like to support the smaller local brands as much as possible. And I went to pick up some chucksuits that I bought for myself and my daughter from Be The Woman. And the owner had just gotten a terrific breast cancer experience. And in a society you have this expectation that you're all of those amazing things, and then you're still going to be able to manage an absolute devastation sometimes. And sometimes they're not. Eventually in our lives, it's some massive shift or change that happens in our lives, and we're expected to manage that a certain way. And I have never felt more, I have never felt more on fire for creating space for women to just be whatever state, shape, or form that is, to just be. But I do believe that there's a massive lack in conversation for women, and especially in South Africa. And I think that the gender-based violence statistics, which are not hidden from any of us, tell a story already of the disrespect and the inequality that women are experiencing in South Africa specifically, across the world of course. But in South Africa specifically, I think there's a massive conversation to be had. And we've recently had this amazing movement of turning South Africa purple in a shutdown, and it was awesome, but what happens after that? We all do that for a day, what's next? Where do we go next? Who's leading that charge? And I just, bottom line is I think that there's too many men in powerful positions that get to dictate how and where women are placed, and what their experience is in that placement and in that role. So I personally believe that there needs to be more female leaders across sectors, not just in South Africa, but across the globe. So I think that the world as a whole would be in a far better state if we had more women in leadership positions than leadership positions where they're actually allowed to lead. I think it's really important. I think in South Africa specifically, I don't think that that conversation is being led, and I have been quite vulnerable and open in sharing my journey, and just in this year what I have experienced and the amount of injustice that I've experienced this year has just been insane to me. And I just think it would be irresponsible of me not to take that conversation further. We've watched parts of that journey, and I know you are very respectful in terms of what you share for the sake of your family and for your own, I would imagine, mental health. The injustice that you speak to is absolute. And one of the – look, let me tell you this. So in my professional career, I spend a lot of time with big brands in South Africa. And since this far-right wave of exclusion has swept the world, a lot of the regulations that were put on South Africa and, what should I say, local markets for global brands, a lot of those regulations have become more of a suggestion than an actual you have to do this. And one of the worst examples that I saw was of this recently. I'm obviously not going to share the brand, but it's an international brand that we all consume. And they recently reshuffled their executive, and there are not only no women on it but no people of color. So they have an entire executive that is white men. They've literally just chucked the whole lot and shown their true colors. And I was absolutely – I just couldn't believe it. I thought we are literally recreating a system that supports sameness. We're saying that this is what good looks like. This is who needs to run our brands. This is who needs to run our country. We're saying it over and over. And the systemic inequality of both being women and then certainly of being a person of color in our country is just so real. And so, yes, I completely agree. And the gender-based violence, it requires the people who sit with the privilege to be assisting with the change, not to sit back and just, yeah, yeah, I agree, I agree. We need men to stand up in those forums. We need people – we need white people to stand up in their spaces and in their forums to advocate for the marginalized and that systemic equation. I agree. I really agree. I really agree. I mean, again, what surprised and hurt me was how few companies, global companies, supported the shutdown that was around the gender-based violence, the campaign that Women for Change were running. There were so few that actively told their staff to go and take that day to lie down in support and to not work at that time. It was this sort of very generic mail that went out that said, do what you've got to do, but don't do it in the name of our brand. Like, what is that? What are we saying? We're saying we don't really care. We're saying it's fine. Everything's fine. You could come and do a workshop in your workspace. You could make sure that there's resources around your office. All the females, especially, that are working in your space and for your company and for the success of your brand, to make sure that they're equipped and they feel safe and knowledgeable. The amount of times that I have conversations with women that don't know, and myself included, I had a situation of abuse in my family directly recently. And I've worked in gender-based violence fields and stages for five years, very closely. I didn't have one number page on my phone for when there was a situation that I was directly involved in. So I had to phone one of those organizations straight away. And of course, they were incredibly helpful. But it was just a very enlightening moment for me. And almost immediately, I was like, everyone needs to see these numbers on their phones. It's just always closer than what you think it is. So I think that was a real opportunity for corporates to kind of have a conversation and to create a space where women feel like they're at ease. They feel like their bodies had a niche to offer. It's super disappointing to find out that not everybody took it on board. Definitely super disappointing how few did. I'm talking about the global brands. I saw a lot of local support, and that was beautiful, local brands in our country. By the way, speaking about local brands and taking a slightly off-topic here, you did cue something to me when you said earlier about you were talking about supporting local brands. And I would love to know if there is a local brand who creates red nail polish who we could showcase on the show. Yeah, so there's an invitation. I think it might be. I think Catrice is actually a local brand. Yeah. That would be very cool. That would be cool. Hey, yeah. And I guess just to wrap up that other conversation was to say we're not going to be advocating for the systemic gender-based inequality if our executives are all white males, unless you've got some real allies in that space. But without the lived experience, it makes it very difficult. I'm pretty sure there's some interesting statistics and research that's coming out about companies and corporates that have chosen to have some executive change at the top, about young women that are leading companies and how they're managing. There are voluntary workers out there. And so I think it's going to look at the data and the research and just get an opportunity where it is. Yeah. I agree more. I heard that you have a tattoo. I have two. You have two? I know of one. I know of one. I don't know of the second one. I don't know if I should ask or not. Look, I've got a tattoo. It's over here on my foot. I know about the one on somewhere here that says something about, like, pick yourself up. Well, should I say? No, no, you're absolutely right. I'm going to read. But it was something about, like, picking yourself up or facing challenges, something along those lines. I've got a Hebrew tattoo on my foot. Oh, it's on your back. Wow, I got all the details wrong, eh? What sources am I consulting? I'm so sorry. I wanted it over my heart. I did not want it over our hearts as mothers. I got it. So I wanted it over my heart. I wanted it in Hebrew because that was the language that Jesus spoke when he was on earth. And I wanted something that kind of has carried me through. That's why I think I was 21 when I got it. And something that I believe will carry me through going forward. And this two-shot cloth is what it means. Oh, lovely. And I've spoken about it tons. And I really just feel like in life there's really beautiful moments that we celebrate and some of us choose to live in. But I think a lot of us are kind of just running through everything the whole time. You know, just can't wait for the end of this week. Can't wait for Friday. Can't wait for the term to end. Can't wait for the... You know, we're constantly looking forward to the next thing. And are we actually just taking a moment to just celebrate and realize that even the good moments are going to pass. And there's not many presents in them. They're going to go. And so this two-shot cloth really reminds me to remain present in beautiful moments. And then, of course, I think it's self-explanatory in the trenches and in really hard seasons. Just one day at a time and realizing that we will get through it. It will pass. It will pass eventually. It's... Yeah. Oh, we literally said that when we were outside in different words. We said, we were talking about term time and how many activities there are. And we're like, well, we have to get through it. That is just what it is, is that we have to. So, okay, your second tattoo? Oh, my second tattoo. My son actually pretty much just made about this tattoo. I have a little pistol on my hip. Ah. Yeah. There's a longer story that I might share one day that I haven't really spoken to public life yet. But basically, it was a reminder to protect myself. And, yeah, I have been hurt by somebody. I have been hurt. And it was just... I got it at the... Yeah, that's beautiful. I got mine. It's a lion. And I got it because my sister got it and I wanted to be like her. And now we're trying to get my third sister to get it. And she's like, there is no way I'm doing it. And we've literally got it on the same part of our foot. And we're like, come on. You're like the odd one out now. And she's like, no, you guys go do your thing. I know, it's cute. Why did you get a lion? So my maiden name, I'm now divorced as you know, but my maiden name was Leo. And I also, on top of that, love lionesses. I love how they work in a pride. I love how they move so gracefully with such speed. I love how they're bold. I feel like they're colorful in their red color, and yet they're just blending in. And they're doing it so well. So I love lionesses. Protective. Yeah, exactly. Protective. And they do the work, right? They're the ones doing the work. And I just... Love them. Yeah. Love them. Yeah. Okay. So let's fast forward to like 10 years from now, right? With your... Bear in mind all the different entrepreneurial ventures that you do and the philanthropy work that you do. What do you want to be able to say that you've achieved in the next, say, 10 years? I think I'd say... I mean, I'm just starting, and I just want to make this clear. Don't hold me to this, but in 10 years time, I'm not going to be able to hold you to this. But you can. I'm literally starting what feels like a world over again in so many different spaces. And it is so scary. It is so intimidating. It's so annoying, because it's Saturday mornings taking the kids to a play park or to something where they can say, you can work. And it's late nights so that when the kids come home from school, you're there dinner with them, ball time, homework, all of the fun things that you watch a little bit of a series. So you're present with them, and as soon as they've gone to bed, I'm back at work. And it's all of these like... It's really challenging to start again. Like it really is challenging. It is, I believe, massively rewarding, because there aren't so many times in my life I'm like, yay, let's go again. Let's do it again. That is... It's hard. It is hard. And I think this is the first time that I've had to do it so alone. Yeah. And I'm so alone, and then being with the kids, and I have to spend the time by myself as well. It's hard. I think in that, it makes me more motivated. There's no way that I could be doing something now that isn't full of purpose and full of impact to justify the amount of hyper-expanding activities I'm having to do to make sure I'm getting stuff out there, to making sure that what I'm doing is going to have an impact and is going to be helpful for specifically women. I just couldn't do that if it wasn't for all this purpose and intention. So I think in 10 years from now, my big vision and dream would be that there are many women at this moment. So I'm like, if there is one, if there is one woman that can say, because Rachel was brave and Rachel chose to share some of the challenges in the journey, I felt that I was able to use my voice and have a space where I felt safe to share my journey and my experience, and I can be brave too. So right now, I feel like if there's one, that's enough. In 10 years, I hope there's far more than one. So I think the hope and the dream is that I'm very conscious of the fact that the majority of South African women don't have access and can't afford necessarily to have access to the creme de la creme of what a lot of sometimes global and international people and professionals have to offer on a journey that is challenging and hard, and how do we do that while as women? And so I would love to be able to bring those expertise and resources to women at a point at a way that they're able to access it and it's affordable, but it doesn't always feel so out of reach. And so I hope that in 10 years, there's thousands of young women that say, because Rachel chose not to give up, and I'm sure a lot of it's like, because Rachel chose not to give up and she chose not to stay in bed when she desperately wanted to, or wrapped around on the floor. Yeah, that there's thousands of women in the future that say like, thank you, and it's because of you that I am where I am today. And I don't mean saying that because there's been women before me that have been brave and have tried to speak up and speak out. And so, yeah, is there any more questions? I've seen your socials, and I've seen that there are a lot of women who are deeply encouraged by the brave... Bravery? Bravery. I was like, bravery, that's the wrong word entirely. I've seen that. I've seen that. And do you know what else I've also seen is in the midst of some pretty controversial and obvious behavior, I love how poised and respectful and calm you've been. Not that you had to be. I'm not saying that that is what is expected in that moment, but that's what I've seen from the outside. And so I know that you are already doing that. And I really do believe, because I've seen people share your posts and say, I'm behind this woman. And what I'm seeing is you are already creating this situation where women, whether they know you or not, are like, I'm there for my lady. Like, I'm here for this woman, and we're doing this together. And there is this movement that I'm feeling that you are a part of, but there is this broader movement around women saying, it's enough now, and we're doing this, and we're going to run companies that offer leave for things that people would never have thought should have leave, like PMS days, or dare we speak about the retail phase and how we feel, and that we're actually entitled to feel a little bit shit without having to pretend that we're not. So these kinds of things, I'm seeing it all over the show, and I'm seeing it in your pages, and I'm seeing how women support one another. And I think you've already started that. In fact, you're pretty far on. And so I don't think that we'll be sitting here in 10 years' time, and I'll look back on this interview and be like, oh, look, Rach, you didn't actually do it. You didn't do the things you said you were going to do. I really think you're there. You're already doing it. Thank you. I hope so. And I appreciate you saying that, because that's something that has taught us a lot. Oh, you're being so graceful. You're being so graceful. And sometimes it's like, sometimes I want to scream. Sometimes I gracefully want to scream. And it's spaces that I do. It's spaces that I absolutely do. When this journey for me started, my number one priority has been my children and what they're supposed to. And my job as a mom is to protect my children. Show up for them, number one, and protect them. And so no matter what I'm processing, I'm dealing with, the priority is my children. And so all of my actions, if that's what I say the priority is, all of my actions have to match that as well. And does it make it easy? Well, it makes it a lot harder, because you're in the trenches. You're right in there. But Rach, this too will pass. This is the thing about it. It passes. I just think that's guaranteed. And it's going to pass. How do I want to be missed when it does pass? What do I want to offer the world? What do I want to offer myself, my family? And I think that it's going to pass, and you have to be intentional in the journey. And that's part of what I'm going to be speaking about a lot. Hold yourself. I hear, and I know, not if it's hard. I'm a poor woman. I know that. And no one can tell me anything different about the year that I've been through. And I've chosen to be responsible. I've chosen to be really intentional about my therapy, about my exercising, about how I show up in the world on a daily basis. And it's not at all to say that I show up every day, and I'm like, yes, and I'm doing all the things. I think I've shown that it has been very challenging. But I've held very close to me the responsibility that I have, not just to myself and to my children, but on a public scale as well. I take that responsibility very seriously. I don't just skip over that part. And so I think that not just we as human beings. What is your responsibility in the world? Like what do you owe yourself, your family, the environment that you walk into on a daily basis? I mean, that could be any one of the things that we've spoken about today. But I really just think that we as human beings need to start seeing and taking a little more seriously how we show up in the world and how we show up for ourselves. And that's something that this year specifically I've been very intentional about. And so I want to take people on this journey of like, I know it's hard. Like, I know. And there's ways that you can do it that you land up being the best version of yourself at the end of this. You don't need to tell me about the days when you literally don't want to get out of bed. You don't need to tell me about the days, the days that you don't want to go to sleep. You don't want to be here anymore. You don't need to tell me about those days. Because I know. But I'm so interested in what am I, who am I, if I do this really well. And so that's my number one priority. And I just think like, there's just too many women out there that are struggling through this. And so there's a season to mourn and to grieve certain things. And in that season, are there areas where you can be intentional? Are there areas you can push yourself a little bit more? You're uncomfortable already, but what does it really look like? And I think that what gets released at the end of that is good luck to the world, or whoever did wrong to you. Oh, I love it. That's when we show up, you know. And I just think like, women need to see that underneath that and trust that that could be their journey too. If they take the responsibility and if they're mindful of kind of how to go through the trenches. I think it's a beautiful thing. I love it. And I want to end with a little kind of thought around the fact that, so I did a, I was so lucky. I got to do a values-based workshop with Terry Crews. Do you know the actor? No. Did you see it on my post? Like, I can't even believe it. But he said something that was so amazing. He said, one day, spend some time thinking about your three values, your three non-negotiables, and use them to make all your decisions. So when you're talking about being purposeful in your spaces, apply those three, because then you'll know that what you're doing fulfills the person you are becoming. And he said, if they fall outside of that, then don't give them your attention, because you actually have, you've got limited capacity, obviously. And I thought that that was really helpful. And so I spent the whole plane ride back from Germany thinking, what are my three values? And it's not easy, let me tell you, because there I was on e-transparency, like I'm going through all these things, loving, proud. I'm like, I'm all these things. And it's actually quite an exercise in self-reflection and a really cool way to approach your spaces. Yeah. That's it. Yeah. Yeah. And that's what happens. Yeah. Oh, Rachel, thank you for joining today. I really deeply loved this conversation. So thank you. Thank you so much for having me. And all the incredible work you guys are doing. And yeah, I hope it was helpful. Thank you. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.