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Living Basketball Episode 3 - Preseason Outlook, All Time Point Guard Rankings

Living Basketball Episode 3 - Preseason Outlook, All Time Point Guard Rankings

Bryson MorrisBryson Morris

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00:00-01:19:19

In this episode Bryson and Clay sit down and discuss their preseason thoughts, and then get into a ranking of their respective top ten point guards of all time. Let us know if you enjoyed and if you have any recommendations! Thank you for listening!

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The hosts discuss their rankings of the top 10 point guards of all time and also talk about the NBA preseason. They mention how preseason games are good for players on the bench to shine and for young players to prove themselves. They share their opinions on specific players' performances in preseason games, including Peyton Pritchard and Westbrook. They also briefly discuss Bronny James and his defensive skills. Overall, they caution against making big judgments based on preseason games and emphasize the importance of looking at historical players to understand the game of basketball. Welcome back to Living Basketball Podcast Episode 3. I'm Bryson. I am Clay of the Ritchie Variety. Glad to be back with y'all. We're in a different location here, but we're gonna jump around and make sure we get a recording out to y'all just as long as y'all want to listen. Yeah, we're having a little bit of trouble this week. We're gonna make sure we get an episode out. I want to keep consistent here. I think I've fully fixed our audio issue now, so maybe these episodes you'll be able to listen to. Today's podcast, if you can't tell by the title, is gonna be ranking our top 10 point guards of all time, but before we get into that we kind of wanted to do just a little bit of a NBA preseason intro. Yeah, we need to talk a little bit on preseason, touch ground on it, and we're gonna talk about some of these older players for the fact that other than preseason going on, there isn't much going on, so might as well touch ground on some of our old opinions, and it's always good to talk old ball, because if you don't look back to the past, you ain't gonna learn nothing new, so that's the game plan. Yeah, I think if you like pay a lot of attention to our rankings of these older players or the historical players, you'll kind of get an idea of our idea of basketball. Oh yeah, and it'll by all means help you understand what we think about current ball, what we say about these older players. Any opinions on the preseason so far? Preseason? From what I know of preseason, Carson was telling me about how Celtics played the Nuggets, and Celtics won, and he told me that Peyton Prichard balled his heart out, which I had no doubt in my mind. I think Peyton is a great point guard, and he is, he's starting point guard, no Derek. No, Derek White and Geraldo. Yeah, Peyton, I mean he's great off the bench for point guard, and man, I tell you, I saw where he played in some like, he was playing in some underground league, and he dropped 100, and I mean of course a lot of them can do that when they're in the league, but Peyton's very good, very reliable, and I guess that right there is what preseason's best for, is to let your back half of the bench get some time to shine, and it lets everybody know that they're not just a joke, and they're not just a bench warmer, but they can get out there and get it going, but I'd like to see the C's doing what they're doing, and who was playing, did the Nuggets have anybody playing? The Nuggets, they started off playing their starters, and then they, yeah, I think they started their entire starting lineup, it was, yeah, it was their entire starting lineup, because Christian Brown was out there too, and he's there starting too now, I guess, officially, they had Jokic and everything, but I think they shut him down after the first quarter, maybe part of the second quarter, the thing, I was impressed with Peyton Pritchard, obviously, for the self-fix, Jordan Walsh was pretty good in certain spots, I'd be interested to see if he could break the rotation this season, I mean, I know he's not going to be, like, a playoff rotation player, but maybe regular season, Jason Tatum's out, like, those type of games, you actually get real Jordan Walsh minutes, and then for the Nuggets side, I kind of liked Christian Brown's defense, honestly, he was guarding Tatum, he was playing him pretty physical, especially for a 6'5 guy, trying to guard, yeah, trying to guard Tatum, people were way overreacting to Tatum, like, he didn't shoot super well, he shot, like, 3 for 7 from 3, I don't, I mean, he's thinking about it, like, it's the preseason, and it's nothing against the preseason, and that's why we're not really just going to, I mean, we were talking before this about how we're not going to make no big decisions based off the preseason, because, I mean, it's almost just organized pick-up ball to them, I mean, yeah, it's good practice, but that's exactly all it is, so, you know, I mean, it's, a lot of people like to get carried away with talking preseason, it's not like that time, oh, heck, that was a couple seasons ago, the Lakers won some preseason games, and they posted, and they were just, you know, flumped and everything, and the Bucs, they said, this is a preseason game, yeah, I mean, really, all I'm looking for when it comes to preseason is, like, bench players, young players, like, who's going to crack certain rotations and stuff like that, but, like, I'm seeing Jokic playing the preseason, I know what Jokic is doing, it's not going to be anything crazy, a good preseason memory I got, and, I don't know, it's just, especially right now, I'm only going to catch so many games out there in the Middle East, plays for good in the TV series, but back at home, I remember watching a Suffolk preseason game where Carson Edwards, where he dropped like, oh, where he dropped like, I think he hit like eight threes or something, I don't know, he didn't break no record, but good Lord, that dude was a bucket, and I remember, and once again, this goes to show what we're talking about with the preseason, that really got me high on Carson Edwards, and he was good throughout the season, but he didn't do anything close to that, and he's done got traded off a while ago, I believe, so. Yeah, I mean, I wasn't necessarily surprised when he, like, didn't last in the league very long, because he's a tiny guy, but he had some pretty good performances, and honestly, for a small guy, he could play a little bit of defense. And he, I mean, he lasted longer than what anybody, well, what I would have expected. Yeah, I mean, just kind of a gift to be that small and even make the league period. But that was his first game of the season, and what have they played since? I know Lakers played. They played the Nuggets again, but I do want to speak on, I was pretty impressed, honestly, with the Nuggets bench unit, which I didn't think I was really going to be, because on paper, they don't really look like anything, but Westbrook actually looked pretty good. How about Westbrook? Tell me about that. I think he hit two or three threes. They were doing the old leave Westbrook wide open at three method, and he's just silked a couple of them, so I mean, if he, like, I am not under the, like, I'm not under the illusion that Westbrook is going to be a good shooter this year. He won't be a good, I can promise you. Ain't nothing going, he's still going to be Westbrook. He won't be a good shooter, but can he be, like, some sort of a weapon from three? Like, you can't leave him wide open. I'd better say, you just brought that memory up. Man, I remember seeing a compilation video, and it's so sad, and just a disrespect for Westbrook, because it's gotten worse through the years, and he's halfway helped it, and halfway, half of it isn't deserved, and half of it is, but dude, I tell you, it's crazy. People, you're, you ain't kidding. Leave that dude wide freaking open, and it's a shame. I mean, people will step back when he has the ball, and you know that's got to get to him, so I guess he's got a little mental battle he's got to go through this season, but time will tell. I really liked his playmaking, like, he really did look like a straight-up, like, super six-man playmaker off the bench, and that bench really needs it, like, I mean, they got some decent young players, like, they got Julian Strother, who's like a good shooter, decent defender, Peyton Watson's a really good defender, good slasher, but like, Galio Saric, but like, none of these guys are really super good creators on their own. I like the way the name, like, Westbrook has. I know we was talking, I guess, when we was going through rankings and all that, we was talking about how we didn't know if he was going to be able to come off the bench or not, but, buddy, I'm just like you, if he can, I think right there would make the difference between a finals team and a championship team. Yeah, I agree. I think if that team does have Westbrook playing at that level, I think that it would be a whole lot different for them as a team. Tell me about, uh, tell me about Bronny. I know everybody's going to want to talk about him and about how he's played, and I don't know nothing other than, I think, did he get any shots up? Uh, yeah, so the Lakers played with Timberwolves, no Bron, no AD, no Ant-Man. Yeah, they lost. Uh, no Julius Randley. The Lakers lost. At the end there, Bronny gets in, I think he put up, like, a three, and I think he hit a layup, maybe. Yeah. Uh, he had two blocks. Uh-oh. Yeah, he was playing pretty good defense. How big is Bronny? Like, 6'4". That's pretty big. So, yeah, like, he's big enough to be a combo guard, but not big enough to be a forward. Yeah. Uh, I mean, he could hit a gross throw. He's 19, 20. That is crazy. Yeah. That's pretty bang young. Yeah. He could still possibly hit a little bit of gross throw. I'm pretty sure he's going to grow, like, body-wise. I just don't know about height, necessarily. But, I saw flashes of really good defense in there, and he's definitely, like, I think he's already a defensive player. He's still trying to figure anything out on offense. That's the key for him. Like, if he can play enough offense to where he's not just going to get played off the floor, then he could be a pretty decent, like, you could actually put him in a few rotations. Like, if, because his defense is good enough to be out there already. Yeah, I mean, that's the only thing I ever heard about. Did he play a year of college ball? Yeah, USC. That's all I ever heard about when he was playing his year at the college was his defense was inaccurate, but did he even average double digits? No, he averaged, like, seven points. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I mean, I know they're talking about how he's at least worth his weight in defense, but you can't make it on defense alone in the NBA unless you are an all-time great defensive player. Yeah, like, there are very few, like, Tony Allens. Even, like, Marcus Smart is maybe, like, a negative on offense, but it's not that bad. Yeah, he can still hold his own. And Marcus, as crazy as it may sound, of course, I am a Marcus Smart fanboy more than I am a Luka. Crap on Luka, I take Marcus. That's the God's honest truth. For the past, I guess, Marcus was traded last year, or last preseason, I guess, something like that. Every year before that, my favorite player on the Boston Celtics was Marcus Smart. Owner of the New York Nets. Owner of the New York Nets, dude. I mean, he was, I've seen him get clutch shots up. I've seen him do some playmaking. He was all around it, dude. It just about made me sick that he missed out on the championship, but that's the way it goes. DPO-wide, I mean, I will never forget that 2020 Raptors bubble series against us where he silked, like, 5-3 there. Literally. I was so pissed. Literally, it's just Marcus Smart. Like, our whole game plan was leave Marcus Smart open, and then we did, and we lost. It was the same series with the OGN and Doby buzzer beaters with Paco Polo. Oh, yeah. The bubble was kind of fun. I don't know. It was. I don't want to go back. No. But, like, I would have much rather had it than not had it. Yeah, it was a good one-time trip. That's a fond memory. It was better than no basketball, by all means. Who else? Timberwolves. Anybody from the Timberwolves? Dante DiVincenzo shot, like, 100%. How many minutes did he score? He scored 11 in the first half. Dang. He went 3 for 3 from 3 and then hit a 2, so he was 100%. Did they have anybody playing? They had Mike Conley, I think Rudy Gobert, Jay McDaniels. Well, Mike Conley, who was he with for forever? Was he with the Jazz forever? He was with the Jazz for a couple years. That's where he got his, like, random all-star appearance, because he was, like, the greatest non-all-star of all time, because of the Grizzlies, where he played forever. There we go. That's what I'm thinking about. And he works for the Jazz and somehow makes an all-star team there, like, out of his prime. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I've heard a lot of people. How long was he with the Grizzlies? Let me think. Don't quote me, but it was about 2008 or 2009. No, I'm joking. I'm telling you, I've heard a lot of people say, if he retires, his number will probably go for the Grizzlies. Oh, yeah. His number should be retired on the Grizzlies, at least. I guess I remember seeing him when he was on the Jazz. I know he was a good player, but... I think he was on the Grizzlies from 2008 until 2018. Don't quote me, but... He's got to be getting older. He's got to be getting older. He's got to be, like, 36 or 37 nowadays. Like, he's old. For basketball? Yeah, for basketball, he's past it. There's a ticking time bomb on how long Mike Conley's going to be productive, as a starter, at least. Which, I mean, they look like... The Timberwolves look like not even a basketball team on offense without him last year, to be honest. Like, there were some... That's why I'm kind of... When people were talking about the Ant-Man and Dante DiVincenzo lineups after the trade with no Mike Conley on the floor, I just don't know what the offense looks like. Last year, Ant-Man was not a good enough playmaker. That's one of the only places that he can really improve on offense, playmaking and shooting threes. And he doesn't look, at least last season, good enough to be a primary. He's nothing but a scoring SOB. Yeah, and he just puts the ball in the bucket. But he's kind of high turnover, and he's not high assist. That's not a guy you want. He's still young. He's a little green. Yeah, no, he's, like, 23. He's got time. I just... People are already saying that he should be the primary guy running. No, no, no, not yet. But, I mean, they don't really have anybody to replace Mike Conley right now. Just Rob Dillingham from Kentucky. He was pretty good in preseason. He scored a bunch of points, though. He might have had, like, 18 or something. Nine. He was getting buckets, man. He was getting buckets. Shout out to Rob Dillingham. Go Cats. I'm trying to think. Anything else from preseason? That's about all I got for preseason. Anything else? I don't really care. The Raptors play tonight. And they're not playing any of the good players. Is that going to be much? No, they're not playing any of the good players. Who are they even going to be playing? Tonight, like, Jakob Berdle and R.J. Barrett are there. Those are starters. Yeah, I thought R.J. was not. Yeah, R.J.'s a good player. R.J., some people are Raptors fans. Not people. Yeah. Are saying that he might be, like, an all-star sub. Like, injury replacement all-star this year. I don't necessarily believe it, but I've heard Raptors fans on Twitter talking about it. What's their plan? Don't ask me that. I saw Raptors and that sounded like jazz or something. It don't matter. It doesn't matter, yeah. Nobody cares about preseason sports. I bet that. I was like, it don't ever do nothing for me. What about, I don't know if Montana may or may not. Isn't there a summer league? Yeah. Yeah, I thought so, because I remember Carson used to watch it. But they already had that, I believe. Yeah, they had that a while ago. It's summer league, then preseason. And almost immediately after preseason, we're going to start the season. Start the league, yeah. Next episode, I'll have to find the first day of the season and we can figure it out. And we can really hone in on it and get a countdown going? So, now we can move into our top ten point guards of all time for each of us. And to preface this a little bit, what we're going to be doing is both of us are going to discuss who we have at each place. We're going to go ten to one. And then at the end of the list, we're going to have to sit down and have a little discussion on an agreement of the hierarchy of this list so that we can have kind of an official living basketball top ten. And we need to get it written down somewhere. We've talked about it for years. And, Lord, that's one thing that we had a little mix-up here. He told me that we were going to be talking top ten players in this podcast. And, heck, I went ahead and put down top ten players of the 2024-25 season. And he told me it was going to be all time point guards. And, Lord, I put my list together about five minutes because if there's anything me and Bronson here has talked about more than anything in our friendship, it's old ball, all-time list, and all-time teams. So, pretty easy to talk about. We can absolutely flap our gums on it. But we've never actually tried to sit down and agree on something. And not that we've actually just came to blows on anything. But we're going to see what we've got here. So, let's put the fire in on it. You want to start with number ten? Do you want to go first or me go first? You go ahead, Bronson. I think I went first on the last top ten. My number ten, and this pick is not necessarily like, oh, this guy, he belongs right here. There's some of these, I'm like you, they can be, I know your number nine is not going to match my number nine. I genuinely don't know where... My number nine, I bet you isn't even on your list. I'm interested by that. Yeah. Okay, well, for my number ten, like, I genuinely don't know where he goes. I know he probably deserves to be on here. I just haven't watched him play basketball, and I don't know enough about him. We don't have staff on him. You're about to throw out something crazy. Go ahead. It's Bob Cousy. Okay. I just put... You gave it a ten? Yeah, I put Bob Cousy on the list at ten, just out of respect for him. I couldn't not put the original point guard on the list. I was about to say, yeah, I've told you about Cousy. I've seen, and I'm a Celtic man, and I like old basketball. And especially, I try to defend some of them older players. And I've got to say, you give the respect for the matter of, you know, a lot of people compare. And, of course, if you drop Cousy into a Warriors-Timberwolves game in 2024-25 season, he ain't going to be able to pat nobody ice water. But that's, I mean, that's unfair. That's not how basketball works. Yeah, that's not even, yeah. But for the time that he played, he broke down walls. Codebreaker. I don't know. But, I mean, he made the position what it was. Of course, in his era, as far as I can tell, not a point guard that could touch him. I mean, yes, he had competition. There was the Big O. There was Rick Barry. There was all kinds of people. But definitely way ahead and far above everybody else. And then what I don't even realize, and what I forget about Cousy, that dude retired in, like, he wasn't there for all the Bill Russell teams. He retired in, like, 1960. Yeah, I thought it was, like, 62 or 63. Yeah, it was, like, early. He was there to get Bill Russell started. And the only thing that I'm going to say about Cousy, I mean, yes, he was a good player. And, really, the reason that he needs to be on the list is for the fact that he, basically, is the outline of a modern-day point guard. Yeah. He just, I know, and we talked about this, when you talk about the Boston teams, of course, he was the leader, him and Red Arbor, before Russell got there. But just about Russell's rookie season, he took over. Yeah, I think Russell was probably the best player on the team. Definitely. Yeah, I was going to say, even when he came in, he was the best. But not just for the fact of defense and rebounding. He was the leader of every single one of them teams. As far as I can tell, he was just flat-out blue. I mean, Lord, he's the only, I guess, him and, is there only one other that's been a player coach in the NBA? There have been other player coaches. He's the only successful one. Yeah. I like Tree Rollins on the Hawks. Like, Tree Rollins was, like, 36 and not even really getting rotational minutes at that point. Yeah, I mean, and Russell, Lord, it was just, it was in the heat of all of it. I think, like, maybe 65. It was after they got beat by Wilt. I think it was in 67, I think. Well, it was whenever Red Arbok went from coaching to head office. Yeah. And I'm telling you, he did a fine job. And I guess he took it over until 69. And then, I don't know, did he coach? Well, we ain't going to get into Russell. I think he coached him individually for a little while. We'll probably have an episode where we talk a lot about Russell. So that's the deal with Russell. My number 10. And my number 10 is for the fact that I'm just like you. He deserves to be on here. He's not a 1 through 5, I don't think. But he's definitely a 6 through 10. I got Chris Paul. And I got him down at 10 for the fact of, I know I talked about this in one of the last podcasts. I think Paul is one of the last true point guards for the fact that he ain't looking to score the whole game. He's looking to pass. He's there for the team. He's not looking for the highlight. And like I said before, Paul's got a bad rep and he doesn't really have the best attitude. But he's definitely a, I think he's a good number 10 spot. He's too old now probably to go up anymore. I think if anything, he gets knocked down by somebody in the future we don't even know yet. Paul's never moving up. No, he ain't moving up. But I think 10 is a good comfortable spot for him. No spoilers, but Paul is absolutely on my list. I will talk about him later. This could be catastrophic. I don't know. I'll get into Paul later. We don't have to agree yet. Yeah, yeah. And I don't even think it's going to be hard to agree. But go ahead. What do you got for number 9? By number 9, so this one I've seen people have this guy like top 3. I 100% disagree, unequivocally disagree. John Stockton is my number 9. I like Stockton, but he ain't number 3. I like what Stockton does. But when I was a kid, I remember when people were talking about when Steph Curry first won his MVP, people were talking about where he belonged and the all-time point guard stuff. I remember people talking about John Stockton right below Magic Johnson. Because he's the leader of all-time skills. He's the leader of all-time skills. And listen, I'm going to tell you about Stockton. It's like I said, I like Stockton. He's not 1-3 at all, never will be. He never won the chip. He can never go any further than that. And he really couldn't do it without Karl Malone. He never MVP'd him. No. He was never the best player on his team. He's such a good point guard, but he's not a good star. Yes, he's a legend, but he's just not up there with the rest of them. I mean, I like what you brought up there. The biggest thing that people talk about with Stockton is all-time assists, all-time steals. He was tough. And a lot of things that people don't talk about Stockton is he was a flat-out Ironman. I think there was only one or two seasons. Like almost every season he played, he played all 82. And he played up until his age a little bit, and he was tough. He was a very good defender. But it's just the matter of fact, he got to the finals, but he couldn't go no further than that. He couldn't have done it without Karl. Karl couldn't have done it without him. I think a thing that people will do with John Stockton, too, is this thing that I see a lot, especially with Kawhi Leonard, I think, for some reason, where people take Kawhi Leonard's offensive peak and they combine it with his defensive peak without realizing that those two things didn't happen at the same time. Kawhi was at his best on defense in 2016. He was not at his best on offense back then. He was at his best on offense on the Clippers. Do you think Stockton was probably best defense in the early 90s and best offense late 90s? I think he was the best on defense definitely earlier in his career, like late 80s, early 90s. Some old jazz jerseys? Yeah, and then deeper into the 80s, I think he was a little bit better on offense. He could shoot a little bit more. His playmaking was a lot more polished. He was never a scorer. I don't know if he averaged anything over 20. I don't know if he averaged 20. I think he was 15-ish. Yeah, he never averaged 20, I don't think. He made up for it, but still. There's questions of playing in the Jerry Sloan offense. It's a system offense, and it tends to get stopped in the playoffs, which is, historically, that's just how things went. But I'm just not as high on John Stockton as some other people. He's just not a number one, and for me, you can't be the very top of this list without being number one. So, my number nine, and I told you, I had nine players that I had in mind, and I really couldn't think of a tenth one. But I dug a little deep, and I did some thinking. And this is such a bold. What are you about to say to me? Dennis Johnson, bro. He was the point guard for the Bird Celtics. And the Supersonics. And the Supersonics. He won 5-3-3. He's got four championships. He's the finalist MVP in 79. He's pretty tough. But, honestly, I put him because, first of all, I couldn't think of any other point guards. And then when I thought about good point guards, I put him. I think he'd be better than Paul for the fact of his stats and how he played. And he played in a pretty tough era. He played on those teams, and he carried his own on the Celtics teams. But, yeah, I know that's a bold name. Now I'm interested. I didn't think it was going to be that bold. But I kind of, yeah, I am kind of surprised. Because that's not a name you hear. Now I'm kind of interested who you left off the list. And I think I know because before the podcast we were talking, he said he only has two current players. And I'll tell you, it's probably just because I'm forgetting somebody. One of them is John, and that's Chris Paul. And the other one is Steph Curry, and he's higher on the list. Yeah, I have him. I think I know who he don't have on the list, who I have. And it might be somebody I'm forgetting. I might be swapping out. I don't know. It might have been a guy we talked about earlier in the podcast. I don't know. Anywho. It might have been a guy on the Nuggets. But, uh, what's your number nine? My number nine was John Stockton. Oh, wait, we haven't talked about that. DJ? For me, DJ just, so the Supersonics is during, like. It was 79. It's right after the ABA merger, so the NBA is getting more into, like. More of what we recognize. I don't consider the NBA like the modern NBA until. Bird and Magic. Bird and Magic in 79, after that championship we drafted. Yeah. So that's like the last year before what I consider the modern NBA. That's probably the. Pre-three point era still. That's really the. The year before they introduced it. That's really where I'd break up the BC and that kind of deal. Yeah. That's where you, you know. The year before the three pointer got introduced. Yeah. The year after. Yeah. So. Uh, yeah. The thing with that championship is DJ might not have even been the best player on his team. He was finals MVP. But Jack Sickmo was the guy leading them. Yes, he was. Gus Williams was good too. Anybody else on that team? I don't know. I don't know either. Brandon Haywood. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But that was definitely like an egalitarian team. Yeah. It was like a carry job. But he, he deserved that final MVP. I don't even know who they played. It was. It was. It was like seven. You go look at the pictures. Who did they play? I don't know. I don't know. I know they won. I don't know who they beat. But, uh. But, uh. And then you jump up to the Bird Celtic teams. And of course everybody wants to talk about the big three. The backcourt. Bird. Parrish. Anywho. Yeah. You want to talk about the big three and the backcourt. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 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