CCC Season 1 episode 1

Brittany and Rachel, both co-hosts of the podcast "Coffee, Cancer, and Chaos," share their personal experiences with cancer and the impact it has had on their lives. They discuss the importance of open conversations and how individuals may have different ways of processing and discussing their diagnosis. They also talk about the concept of "cancer ghosting" and how some friends may distance themselves during difficult times. They advise against saying "let me know if you need anything" and instead encourage offering specific help and support. They emphasize the importance of being proactive and not waiting to be asked for assistance. All right. Welcome to the first episode of Coffee, Cancer, and Chaos. I'm your co-host Brittany Holtower. And I'm your co-host Rachel York. So just to kind of give you a little introduction to myself. I am a wife and mother of two. I have a four year old daughter, Lorelei, and a two year old son, Dean. And I am a pharmacist. I was diagnosed in August of 2021 with pancreatic neuroendocrine tumors. At that time, they found tumors on my pancreas and my liver, making it stage four. I underwent a Whipple surgery in August of 2022 to remove the pancreas or the, not the pancreas, the tumor on my pancreas. And then just three months ago in January of 2024, I had a liver transplant to remove my remaining tumors. Now I will hand it over to Rachel. So, as I said, my name is Rachel York and I'm a widow and a mother of five. My husband was diagnosed in August of 2018, sorry, with cholangiocarcinoma, which is equally pretty rare for someone of his age. That was about eight months after we had adopted two little boys and together previously we had three children. This cancer battle was a little bit different. He was also diagnosed with stage four cholangio at the time that it was found. However, his treatment happened through COVID, which complicated a lot of things medically that it shouldn't have. I am a nurse practitioner locally, but nothing I say is medical advice whatsoever at all. Brittany and I met actually working together. And through each of our individual experiences with. The craziness and chaos that cancer is, we decided to put together this podcast. So what we're kind of hoping to do is kind of share about our experiences, mainly from the. Mental health side, the navigating the health care side, health care system side. And just kind of being a resource for other people that have been in similar situations and also been impacted by cancer. We're hoping that we're able to, during our episodes, give you kind of our experience. Kind of talk about other experiences that we have, like books we've read, articles we've read to discuss the same topics that we've experienced. And also potentially have some guests to talk about various topics related to mental health, cancer, grief. Everything that comes with it, chaos. And what we wanted to touch on for this 1st episode is kind of how you help support people that are directly impacted by cancer, whether it be. Your loved one has cancer or you're trying to support your friend. Husband or wife or child has cancer and how to. Best support them through that time things to say things not to say things that. May you may think are helpful, but can actually be pretty painful to the person on the other side of it. So with that, let's kind of get started into our 1st thing that we want to touch on, which is being prepared for open conversations. Sort of expecting the unexpected. When it comes to having conversations with an individual who is diagnosed with cancer or with their close family members, because everyone is going to respond to react. In how they want to have their conversations differently. Some people, I know for me, I like to talk about cancer, how my treatment's going, what's going on, because it helps me process it. I talk about it. I talk about it helps me process it more. Well, how about for you, Rachel? How do you. I feel like my husband wanted to talk about it less. He would ask more specific questions about, like, how do they come to a diagnosis? How do they know of the diagnosis, but actually, like, personalizing the fact that he had cancer and wanting to speak about it? Not so much. And I think I'm still processing through that, really, like how that affected me, because I was just trying to be supportive, right? Like, I was just trying to figure out all of the things, all of the chaos. Yeah. At that time. It's survival mode. Yeah. Constantly. That fight or flight at all times. Every second. I know for me in general, how I process things, like I said, is by talking. But my husband, Luke, doesn't really like to talk about things. So for me, when I was first diagnosed, we had already gone through some harder. Difficult health situation with our daughter, Lorelei, and she had had surgery at a young age and surprising diagnosis when she was born. And so when we were in that time, we were learning to be new parents and it was really hard on our marriage. So we had both had different ways of communicating. So when I was diagnosed, I said, you know, we can't. I have to be able to talk about this and I need you to be able to talk about it, too. Like, I can't I've already lost too much in this and we just got diagnosed. I can't lose you, too. So for us, we started going to couple therapy. But my point in all of that is just that people are going to process it differently. Each person's going to want something. Some people might not want to talk about it. Some people that being with that friend might be a loved one that might be their break from talking about cancer or other people. Maybe all that they want to talk about. But just in order to know that the best thing to do is just talk to the person that has cancer. A lot of times I found and I don't know if it's the same for you. I think we've talked about it before, but there's this concept of like cancer ghosting. When you get in that moment or you're in that time, you lose a lot of friends because they don't know how to talk to you. They do and they don't want to bug you, bother you. Right. So while they may be thinking of you, they don't reach out as much anymore. They kind of back away or shy away. And that can be pretty hard to take. Right. Because things that you're used to doing things that you were doing before, whether that be texting or, you know, checking in with a friend, you know, once, twice a week, whatever that be. When that goes away, I feel like it gives you more time to sort of sit and mull things over in your brain. And that's not always the healthiest way to go about things. Did you find that when Kelly was diagnosed, like people went away, but then also when he died, like even more people went away or did you not find that to be the case? When he was diagnosed, a friend that I had worked with for several years actually showed up at the ER with me that day. And it's like she knew that I was losing all control right that second. She kind of just stepped in and took over like she really did. She thought of things that I couldn't think about, things that are normal that I should be able to think about, like being a nurse, like things that I should have mapped out, but totally gone. When he passed away, again, she showed up at the ER. Like she was right there making sure all of the things, helping me out with my kids, make, you know what I mean, like things that I literally could not think of or accomplish, she took care of. So super thankful that she was able to do that. Right. And like she didn't have that feeling of let me step away. Yeah. I do feel like some other people kind of took a step back, though, and it was more my husband had cancer during COVID. Right. So then like the end of COVID and everybody's masking, schools are shutting down. How do we do sports with our kids that were in high school? And how do we do all of these things while going through chemo and, you know, keeping yourself safe? And heaven forbid one of the kids come home with COVID. How is that going to affect things? I feel like that may have played a role into it, too, but not as completely as I feel it was. A ton of people stepped up when he passed away and stuck around and did all the normal things. Like my husband did all of the lawn care and the home stuff and, you know, fixing and repairing and things that I had no idea about. He had some really good friends that came and did those things without being asked. It was just we're here. What's going on? And that part is super important. Right. Like, don't wait to be asked. Yeah. Well, that kind of leads into the second point. Something not to say. So let me know if you need anything. You have no idea what you need. None. You need everything and anything. And if you take the time to think like you can't you cannot think about what it is that you need. Normal thought processes. Normal rationalizing is completely gone. So it's just for people that are experiencing a difficult situation, whether it be cancer or death or all of the above. Just don't say, let me know. Saying, let me know if you need anything. But what can you offer me? OK, like, put it back on them. What is it that you can do for me? A lot of times I feel like people are saying that because they don't know what else to say, because everybody else has already said, I'm so sorry. Like they want to say, let me know if you need anything. And everyone means, well, I get that. But there's so many things that I mean, I can't even do my normal daily activities. Right. I don't feel like. Gosh, I know I've said, let me know if you need anything. I don't feel like it comes from like a place of being disingenuous, necessarily. But having been on the other side of that, right, being able to look at it through a different lens than the dinner. Just show up like, you know, I have people do for me and do things. Say, hey, I know that X, Y and Z need done and I am free on this day, this day and this day. What works best for you? It's a heck of a lot easier to say, you know what? Saturday works better for me than Friday does. So if you're available, yeah, let's do that. Yeah, our neighbor would just mow our lawn. Didn't ask us if they could mow our lawn. Didn't like, hey, what do you need? They literally just mowed our lawn. If they noticed we were gone for a while and figured out we were at out of town for treatments. They just mow our lawn. After my surgeries, they just mow our lawn. We'd be out and we'd see we'd be gone and we'd see on our camera like someone's at the door. But no, it was just them mowing our lawn. But just doing what you can do. If you can't cook, send a door dash. If you can't mow the lawn, if you don't have time to do something, then just like I said, send a door dash. Just send a text like, hi, I'm here. How are you doing? And don't be offended if they don't text back. Yeah. Don't think you've bothered them. Don't think that they're ignoring you. Sometimes getting that and reading that makes you feel good, but yet you don't have the energy to respond. So don't let that deter you in the future from sending a message or, you know, if you call and leave a voicemail. Like, they're probably going to read it. They're probably going to listen to it. It may not be right at that second. And it is meaningful. But don't be deterred if you don't get something back. Yeah, I mean, there's people, we're on almost three years since I was diagnosed, and there's people that have been sending us stuff since August of 2021. And some of them I've thanked, some of them I haven't. It doesn't mean that I'm not grateful. Trust me, I'm so grateful. Sometimes it's the only way that we've survived, but it doesn't mean I'm less grateful. It's just that's how chaotic it is in those moments. And I don't know if it feels the same way for you or not, but I'm so grateful that saying thank you doesn't seem like it's enough. No, it almost seems like a cop out. And then I sit and I obsess over ways to show my gratitude, and I come up with nothing. Because you don't have the time or the capacity to do it. You don't have the brainpower to think of it. Right. And it's like I like to make more personal thank yous, and I like to write them out. But when I'm doing those, it's just been a text for years now, for almost three years. And it's just like thank you, like we appreciate you. Because I can't think of anything more. My brain just can't do it. And it's not that I'm not grateful. It's just that there's so many things that I need. There's so much that I'm like I'm overwhelmed with gratitude. And it sounds cheesy, but it's true. Like I'm overwhelmed with gratitude. I just literally don't know how to adequately thank you for what you're doing. And you're still trying to like put your life together, right? Like you could ever. Try, though. But you had young children, right? I had children that spanned. Yeah. When he was diagnosed and passed away from high school to not even preschool yet. Right. You're still trying to make their every day as normal as possible. When it's not. Yeah. So anything that someone can do, it's helpful, but it's what their capacity is to do. Just don't say let me know if you need anything, because they need things. And they're definitely not going to come to you and say this is what they need. No. Maybe some people will. I don't know. In our experience, we're not asking. I'm not going to ask. Nope. I like to be an independent woman. Right. I don't need no one. I have this. I got it all. I can do it all. And then you sit there and you're like, how in the world am I even going to do a tenth of this, let alone all of this. Yeah. Which also, honestly, that kind of leads to another point we had, which is this one. I know we could go on forever. You are so strong or you are an inspiration. Neither one of us. No. At all. Yeah. Yeah. I don't feel strong. I don't feel inspirational. I feel awful. I feel weak. I feel lost. I feel confused. None of those things are synonyms for strong. And just because I can go through something, I don't, for me, that does not equate to strength at all. You didn't have a choice to go through it. Yeah. Well, you're, like, you weren't, you couldn't decide if your husband lived or not. That wasn't your decision. That was just, like, you weren't going to choose the path that you were given. Nope. Like, you didn't have any choice in that. Your kids didn't have any choice in that. Like, you didn't have any choice that you'd be diagnosed. I didn't have any choice that I'd be diagnosed. Like, maybe if I didn't have my kids, maybe it would be different and I wouldn't fight so hard. I mean, I could see if I was 80 years old and I didn't have a family and I had this, I wouldn't have fought so hard to have the treatment that I did. But I don't think that makes me strong. I think that's me literally trying to do everything I can just to survive, literally. Like, it kind of feels like someone saying I'm an inspiration just because I didn't die or because I was giving a diagnosis and I just kept going. I'm not sure cancer is inspirational, right? No. Oddly enough, you had a rare cancer diagnosis that is uncommon for your age and involved, like, your liver in my husband. And equally, if not more rare, cancer diagnosis that also affects people who are much older, right? And I hate to call cancer glamorous because no cancer is glamorous. But there are certain cancers that are given a lot of research dollars and publicity, right? And I'm not sure if that's where the inspirational part comes from because on the commercials for certain things or it's like everyone looks so happy and everyone's enjoying everything and nothing is happy and enjoyable. These people clearly did not have a GI cancer where they're shitting their brains out. Oh my gosh. Is that allowed? I mean, that's cancer, right? That's honesty. NFK, not for kids. But really, like, I am not, you know, like, in any way trying to minimalize anyone's cancer journey. Like, I've had enough of a cancer journey. I don't want any more cancer journey. Like, if I never heard it and saw it again, I'd be fine. Yeah, totally fine with me. But nothing about that feels inspirational. And while I am certain that most of the time that is coming from an absolute place of trying to be supportive, it doesn't feel that way. It doesn't feel supportive. It almost feels like you're sort of distancing yourself from them. It feels like, I think I've said this before, like a cop out. Yeah. Like, you don't feel comfortable saying something else. And so you're looking at the difficult situations or difficult choices that someone with cancer is having to make and their family is having to make. And you don't know what to say because you can't relate to it. But that's how it feels, which makes you then feel more alone because then you're like, oh, they can't relate to me. They can't imagine themselves in this situation. And so it feels like you're more alone. Which makes it harder for you to reach out, right? Yeah. That goes back to the other thing of let me know what you need. Well, after you've told me I'm so strong, like. Yeah, if that's all you're going to say. I need you to not say that. Yeah. Like, I'm telling you an uncomfortable thing that's happening for me. I'm telling you, like, a difficult situation. I'm honestly not expecting you to say anything. Yeah, it's totally fine to not have a response. And that might be the perfect way to respond is not to respond or just acknowledge like, yeah, that's tough. Like, I don't need you to tell me that I'm strong because I feel weak right now. And now I feel even weaker when I go home and I bawl my eyes out alone because you just told me I'm strong. And now I'm crying or my kids are seeing me cry or whatever it is. But it's meant from a good place. But it's honestly really hard to hear. And it is really hard to hear. I feel like all of these tie so much together. I don't know. You're woven all over. But what about. You both have GI cancers, right? Like, you have the option of a liver transplant and different things. Now, granted, your cancers are different. And as much as we tried that for my husband and traveled and tried things like he did not. Right. Everyone was like, oh, I'm not going to be transplantable. All right. And I'd be stuck with that liver forever. So we just got to make the best of it. And lots of people came up with lots of ideas of how you could get better. Like, if you ate better, your cancer could go away. And. If you, you know, used essential oils, your cancer would go away. And. I'm not saying that, like, negatively against essential oils, because I know you are. At least in our area, I feel like you are very firmly divided either for them or against them. There is no criteria, but we did use essential oils. My husband totally did. I use them for nausea, for pain. Yeah. I feel like encompassing any type of Western and Eastern medicine. Like, yeah, do it all. Right. But you could offer that to me. Mm hmm. But don't say that if you did this, it would be better. Like, hey, have you thought of doing essential oil? Yeah. Have you thought of. You know, drinking bone broth, but don't tell me that. You're going to cure my cancer if I drink this bone broth. But I think. It might be, but listen. I mean. I've talked on Instagram saying it can cure anything. True story. I'm still holding it. I can't take all the sodium anymore. And I'm not saying that none of those things are good. Like, that's not what I mean. Yeah. I mean, it's like bone broth can help with inflammation and all kinds of things. Again, it is a combination. Yeah. But please don't come to me and tell me if I just did this one thing, I wouldn't be in this situation. Because you know what? I didn't choose to be in this situation in the first place. Yeah. Like, I'm not being punished for something. Yeah. Yeah. And that's honestly, like, I'm already feeling like I'm being punished for something a lot of the time. Like, I did something wrong. I don't. I appreciate that you're trying to help me or that it worked for someone else in your family. It helped them with whatever. But it's different for me. And I don't know. I, again, like Western medicine and like this integrative medicine. Yeah. Which actually is like I've been researching a lot like functional medicine and integrating that into like my liver transplant. It's essentially it's not cured. Right. But it's there's no visible disease right now. Well, they haven't officially said that because I need more scans. But essentially, the goal was to be no evidence of disease. We know it's still in there. But if I'm doing everything I can to help slow it down from coming back, I'm going to do that. I'm not going to sit and eat Oreos all the time. If there's foods that have been found to help, like, just generally help you be healthy. Am I saying that that's curing my cancer? No. But do I think it's helping me be healthy in general? Yeah. Because if I'm healthier in general, I'm going to be better able to fight whatever it is. Yeah. Unsolicited advice from the other thing with unsolicited advice. Oh, this is another one is when unsolicited parenting advice in relation to cancer. Or like just difficult situations. If you haven't been in that situation, you don't know. Like if your four year old is different than my four year old, like. My four year old is super empathetic, picks up on everything. That's different than a normal four year old. So saying that if I just I've had people tell me just stay positive. Don't let her see you upset. And I'm like, how one that's being disrespectful to her because she has picked up on it. She already knows even though she can't put words to it. Yeah. Like she knows something. Yeah. And so that's just being disrespectful to her and her intelligence. It's not helping her. Yeah. So it's like. And that may be it's like with anything, the parenting, like everyone's going to have different parenting styles or what they feel is right and wrong to talk to their children about. That doesn't mean that any of those people are bad parents. I will say that my parenting style. As vastly as mine from when my gosh, my oldest is 21 from when I was parenting just her. Her sister was born seven years later. And then my stepson is also going to be 21 very soon. So the two of them and then their sister, you know, seven years later. And then when we adopted the boys, you know, they had their own set of medical issues and exposures in utero and things. And then figuring out how to parent them is. Completely different than anything I was used to. And then you throw in this horrible thing called cancer to everybody's life. That completely changes their father. And their life at that time. Yeah, I sure did change my parenting. Like, you know what? Some stuff you just let go. It's not important how to pick your battles at that point in time. And yeah, those kids act out. But. They're going through a time. Mm hmm. And don't always have. The they're not equipped with the tools to try and deal with that, right? So they're acting out. So, you know, giving me the side eye because my kid is going crazy. Is not helpful. But if you give them bone broth. They don't drink bone broth. They don't like. They said nothing. But I will say that even my older children noticed that my parenting style changed a ton. And I feel like probably routinely that happens. Like, aren't there all these things about the oldest and the youngest are always treated anyway. Right. But there was something like this. And it really, I feel. Changes a ton. And, you know, let's just be less judgmental. Again, see, you know, if someone's struggling with the kids, see if you can step in and, you know, maybe buffer that a little bit. Yeah, and it's. The other thing I found that's different is like the way. There's been a lot more research and. You know, I guess just research, but like. The way that we talked about mental health, the way that we talked about parenting, all that has changed since we were kids. So, like, I find that a lot of times it'll be like older generations will be like, well, I didn't do that with my kids and they're fine. A lot of that. Yeah. My husband actually was very much that way. Yeah. Like, not at all from a generation or an upbringing. I will say that there is a lot of mental health issues in the family. From my observation, but it's not anything that's ever discussed. Like, it's not. You didn't discuss it. You didn't treat it. You didn't talk about it. Nothing. And it took a lot for him, but he actually started to realize that, hey. No, this is like, yeah, this is important. And. Started looking into therapy for himself and our stepson was in therapy at that time. And, gosh, we've all been in therapy because of this. But, I mean, it really does kind of. You need help. But you don't need unsolicited. No, no, that could help. Just support. Yeah. So then let's kind of review, like, the things that we talked about that. We said, like, the first thing that we said that, like, the not to do is. Not letting me know if you need anything to show up in ways that you can. Like, we just said, don't give unsolicited advice. Like, it's fine to give advice if you're saying, you know, have you tried this? Or but not saying, like, this will do this. It will cure your cancer or do this. It will just offering your own experience is fine, but not putting a. Like. Like, what am I trying to say? No, exactly. That's what we're doing. That's like, and I'll be all. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's an option. It can be additive. It's not like the thing. Yeah. And then saying you're so strong or you're an inspiration. Even just saying, like, nothing at all or just. Usually people are saying that in response to them talking about a difficult situation they're experiencing or. Oh, it's like maybe everything's going wrong at that time, and that's what they're saying, and they're saying you're so strong, you're such an inspiration. Just saying, yeah, that's hard. That's really hard. And I'm trying to imagine that, but I can't because I'm not in that situation. Just listening. And then we said, just these are our experiences with this, and these are things that we found, but being open to conversation and seeing what other people need. Some people are, like you said, are going to want to talk about cancer all the time, and some people are not going to want to talk about it. So, as you're engaging with. Person diagnosed or their family, like. One, don't be shocked if they bring it up and you feel like they're unloading all of this, like, cancer stuff on you. Just try and listen, even if you're not understanding everything. And it's totally fine, I would think, to ask questions, like, try to understand more by asking some questions. But if they are doing everything to avoid discussing cancer or illness or sickness, let them. That's what they need right now. They need a distraction. They need to think of something else. So, let them do that. Don't try to bring them back around to something either. Let them kind of lead the way. And so that kind of leads into some of our to-dos that we had talked about. So, still inviting to things, not just asking questions. Still inviting to things, not just excluding that person because you know they're going to say no or they're going to say I'm too tired or whatever. Just bringing them lunch or letting them know that they're still their friend. You're still around. They're still thought of. They're not being excluded because they have cancer. Yeah. Because they're not going to come. I mean, that's kind of what hurts a lot, too, is when people don't include you because they think, one, you're just not going to come anyways. Or they don't want to include you. Another thing would be, like, in conversations. And people exclude me from conversations because they think that what they're going through isn't as bad as what I'm going through. So, they don't feel as comfortable telling me. That's a super tough one. Not going to lie. That is a super tough one to be like, I feel like I've been on both sides of that one. And that is hard because I feel I'm more aware of how it's going to feel. And, of course, I start overthinking it. But it's like, yeah. And I actually had a really good friend do that to me. She was going through some really tough things. And she knew of the diagnosis, right? And COVID. Good God, COVID. So, we weren't really going a lot of places. Like, we had pulled our youngest out of daycares just to kind of keep them. I mean, kids are sick all the time in daycare. You know that, right? To try and keep them from bringing home any illnesses. Our big kids were, like, online learning for part of COVID and then back to school. And so, she felt it would be too much of a burden to, like, say what she was going through. And, man, that would have been a great distraction for me sometimes, right? Yeah. And now, sitting on the other side of this where I am no longer dealing with, like, asking for help. Active cancer treatments, options, thoughts. That kind of thing. I'm not making those active decisions. It is still impacting every one of my decisions right now, right? Yeah. Like, totally lost my partner. Yeah. And now I'm out here making all these decisions on my own. So, it's still impacting every one of my decisions. And that's kind of hard, too. Because, like, how do you... People don't understand that, either. And, you know, I'm still so strong. Your situation. Out here, single mom. And you're like, oh, but you're doing it as a single mom. I'm not sure how other places are, but here in the United States, there are plenty of single parents. Period. Moms and dads. Like, they're all doing it. I'm not doing more than them. Probably doing a whole lot less than them. Most days. Like, don't judge. But, yeah. To still be invited to things, even if I can't come. Or to still let me know about things. Yes, please. Don't make me feel like I matter. Yeah. Yeah. And that all leads, kind of, the first thing we talked about in that conversation. The first thing we talked about in that. Kind of all that goes into just showing up, even in the uncomfortable moments. Especially in the uncomfortable moments. Like, you're going to feel uncomfortable, but imagine how the person is telling you how uncomfortable they are. They're uncomfortable about every moment in their day is uncomfortable. They're having to make uncomfortable decisions. Uncomfortable decisions. Having to just completely be out of their comfort zone with everything. Uncomfortable treatments. Uncomfortable situations. Like, if I'm in pain and you're there visiting me, don't just leave me. Don't leave me in that moment. Like, I probably need you more then. Like, if I bring up cancer and it makes you feel uncomfortable, that's my every day. Like you said, even though you're not involved with active cancer, that's still your every day. That's still why you're in the situation you're in. You know what I mean? Like, show up. Especially in those uncomfortable moments. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think that's what that is. Don't be offended when I don't show up though, right? Yeah. Like, that's a really self-centered, and that is not how I mean it, but like, yes, I need people to show up for me so I can realize that like. There's still people out there. Yeah, and there's still some normalcy, right? Yeah. But at the same time, don't be offended if I don't show up. Yeah. Like, there have been a couple of funerals since my husband died, and I'm sorry. I feel awful, but there is no way I can go to a funeral right now. Yeah. Like, I just don't think that I could. Yeah. I'll say that. People aren't going to think about that, though. No, absolutely not. I mean, I would have never thought about that, right? Yeah. And it sounds, I don't know how to make it sound not self-centered. Like, please show up for me, but by the way, I'm not showing up for you. No, not at all. That's not what I mean. It's just, I think that's why this podcast was important to us, right? So we could, like, draw some attention to these things for people to kind of think about things the opposite way. Yeah. Like, another example that we had talked about was, like, just responding to text messages. Like, I'm already bad at responding to text messages before all this. Oh, yeah. I had, like, a three to five business day rule. Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. And sometimes I'm on vacation. That's true. I'm out of the office. A lot. It's like, I think there's text messages people sent me from when, after I had my liver transplant, I still haven't responded to. Or I respond, like, this is no lie. I will get them at work. And I keep my phone on me at work all the time. One, because, well, my husband had cancer, so I always had my phone on me just in case something was going on and I needed to be able to leave, right? Yeah. And now my kids are in school or I have a couple in college or whatever. And it's like, I still have my phone on me all the time and sometimes a text will come through and I'm like, yep, okay. And it's in my mind that I am going to get back to that later when I can, because right now I'm busy at work. Yeah. I don't. I'm not going to say sometimes. And sometimes, too, like, I find that it needs, like, it deserves a thoughtful response that I don't have the capacity for. Yeah. The thoughts are not there. Yeah. Like, I can't form the words or I'm just not ready to talk about that yet. But I don't want to blow you off. But I need time to respond to that. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Oh, yeah. So I've had people when I respond regularly, they're actually like, well, hey, okay. But then they'll respond back and then you don't respond for days. You know, my bad. But I'm still, like, going to be on Instagram. And I'm still going to be on, like, TikTok and stuff. Oh, gosh, yes. Yes. That's my mental break. I don't have to think about anything. Not my term. I did not coin it. I don't know where I got it from, because that's the other part of all this. Right. Like, you see things and you resonate with them, but you never remember where they're from. But forget-aways. Yes. These are my forget-aways. Like, this is how I dissociate. This is how I shut my brain off for a little bit. From all of the processing of all of the things in the day to day routine. No, I mean, even, like, post-transplant now, like, I'm trying to, I mean, I'm on a ton of medication, which makes my brain not so clear. But, like, for just until recently, I would just, like, lay in bed. I wouldn't watch TV. I wouldn't read. Nothing. Because it was too much. Like, I couldn't have anything else in my brain. And I just started trying to read things, but I can only read for so long. Or lately I've been watching TV. Like, that'll help. But still, it's like, I don't know what I did all the time. I just laid there. But that was my forget-away. Been there, done that. Can't explain it to you. Don't know what I did. Literally no idea what I did. We'd be home from work and I'd be like, hi. Not sleeping. Tired. But not asleep. But no energy to move. Yeah. And I wasn't even on my phone. Nope. Nope. No. Yeah. Can't tell you how to improve on that. I don't know. Okay. Well, that about covers our list. I think so for now. I mean, we have other ideas, other topics for additional episodes. But I feel like this kind of is a starting point, right? For people who hear about a diagnosis or receive a diagnosis. My goodness. I mean, there's lots of things out there about, you know, how to do this, that, and the other. But how about we really talk about the ways that you might feel. Or the ways that people around you might actually feel. Yeah. And how that's okay. Yeah. Let's be like, I've heard the term like grief illiterate. Like people don't know how to manage it. Not manage, but our society just doesn't understand grief. But I feel like it's the same, which is almost like related, but like cancer illiterate or mental health illiterate or just emotional, emotion illiterate. Emotionally illiterate. Yeah, for sure. I feel like, I mean, my background is nursing. We literally learned the five stages of grief. Yeah, which are BS. And, you know, I was 18 going through nursing school and you tell me there's five stages of grief. What have I done? What have I lost? My favorite nail polish. Not being mean to any 18 year olds because everybody's different. But for myself, like really, I hadn't had a ton of grief. Like world shaking grief at the age of 18. You tell me there's five stages and this is what nursing is. And I am at it. I will memorize those. You can test me on those. And I expect everyone is going to go through these five stages and you're going to progress through them in a timely fashion. You are going to go in order, do not go out of order. And then you're going to be done. Right? Then it's over. It's moved on. Yes. My goodness. Don't stay in grief. Even in mental health, we have a diagnosis of prolonged grief. No, there is no such thing. It is just grief. Yes. It is not prolonged. You can't judge everyone else's grief. My goodness. It takes the time that it takes. And it ebbs and it flows. And it's good and it's bad and it's awful. But it's not prolonged. It's just grief. It is what it is. I think it's moved on. I think we're going to get into some fun topics. Yeah, definitely offer like an entire new insight than anything that you or I have been able to find thus far. That's what I search for. So it's just having that resource of other people that understood the uncomfortable emotions, the uncomfortable situations. You are so strong. So let me know if you need anything. And people for sure mean well. But that doesn't make it easier. That doesn't mean that I should feel uncomfortable because they mean well. Yeah. Or when you make them uncomfortable because of your diagnosis or situation. It's like you feel inclined to make them more comfortable. Sorry. I do not have the bandwidth for that. I think that about wraps up our first episode. If anyone has any topic ideas for us, if you listen to this podcast, let us know. Yeah. Feel free to share. We have some ideas, but we want to know what other people want to hear about. Or your own experiences. Yeah, for sure. I'd love to have other guests on here that are going through similar situations. You're another person. Mm hmm. Well, thank you for joining us for episode one of coffee. Coffee. Or tea in some cases. Or tea. If you've had COVID and can't drink coffee.