JO

Jo, a 62-year-old woman, shares her body story. She recalls being a tall and skinny girl, noticing other girls with breasts in high school. She reminisces about riding her bike and swimming as a child. Jo's nana encouraged her to be in nature, while her mom was physically active and loved surfing. Jo also excelled in swimming and running. She felt confident in her tall stature, though she sometimes thought she was too skinny. Jo's mom talked to her about periods and put her on birth control at a young age due to severe symptoms. Overall, Jo had a positive body image and was educated about bodily changes by her mom. Jo let's get into your body story. Do you mind first telling us how old you are? I don't mind at all. I'm very proud of my age actually. I'm 62 years old and I'll be 63 in November. Amazing. So Jo tell me about your earliest memory of your body. Well I did think about this last night and I remember being on a school bus in my teens and I was a very long tall lanky girl, skinny, and I didn't realise at the time flat chested. And it wasn't until I started going to high school and I started getting the Mr Boo's blue bus down from our place, down to Avalon, Barronjoy High, and I started noticing girls, we had a uniform with no shape, but I started noticing girls with breasts. Funnily enough as years have gone on I'm one of the big busted girls you could ever meet. Get what you wish for. I love it. What about even earlier than that? When you were a really small child, was there something that you loved doing with your body? Were you like, did you love dancing or swimming or riding your bike or? Like going back, back, back before that. Oh push bike riding. I had a drag star. Little fringes on it and that would have been when I was around sort of like eight, nine, and ten and I used to actually go and get my cousin. I've got photographs of her as a baby on the front of that drag star. Swimming was amazing for me. I did a lot of swimming. What did you, can you remember any feelings of how you felt when you were on that bike and you were riding that bike with your cousin? Yes I felt free. I felt, I felt grown up but I wasn't so because mum and dad gave me the responsibility to be able to leave their place and ride two blocks to my auntie and uncle's. I love it. Just being that long legged skinny girl for me, I think I'm visioning it now. I was, I was peddling away. You were, yeah. I had the wind in my hair and I was, I was you know going to an exciting place. And did your, because I had a bike like that too when I lived in Port Hedland, did it have the really long back, the seat that went up really high at the back and the big chopper handlebar. It had the big chopper handlebar. Love it. And but it had, the seat didn't go up the back but it had the very long seat on it. Yeah I remember. And then it went down at the front like that and then yeah big and it had the streamers coming off. And I still would love one. I've looked for one. I have, I've looked for the drag star. So yeah, the Melbourne Star Drag Star but I mean yeah, that's probably a great memory for me too. And so you grew up in Avalon which is at a beach so, and you were saying swimming. Do you remember the sensations of swimming? Like did you swim really young? I was really good at sport. Right. So I was a champion swimmer. From what age? Like a young age? Probably from about, I would have started getting into swimming because it was still in primary. Yeah. So how old are you then, like eight, nine? Yeah, yeah. I mean we grew up on the beaches so all of that, you know, was always walking from Nanneran Pass because I grew up with my mother, my father and my brother even in one part of the house. My nana and pa in the front part and my great-grandmother Elizabeth. Amazing. There was a door that connected the kitchen into great-grandmother Elizabeth's bedroom and there was my auntie and uncle in the front part of the house which was in the garage. Wow. And that was until I was 10 years old and yeah. Okay, well I would love to. That's really interesting. I would love to dig into that a little bit. So living with all these generations and relations, do you remember those women talking about their bodies or your body at all as you were growing up? They were all three very different women. So my nana, I mean coming from London, growing up over there and then coming as a child actually over there, over to Avalon. She wasn't a big beach goer. Right. She'd send me with a jar down to the creek to catch tadpoles. That was nana's sort of thing. But nana was very nurturing and very, very hair combing and like a nana is and tickling of back and very soft and nurturing and if I, being so close to mum and, sorry, nana and our place, if I didn't get on with my mum, I would walk straight down the path and up the stairs to nana and say I was in trouble. So are we talking with bodies and with, how are we talking mind or? No, more just body. Body, yeah. No, but I love that and I think that image of your nana encouraging you to go down to the creek and move and be in nature is very much a nurturing thing but it is also something physical. Yeah. Do you remember your mum ever talking about her body when you were growing up? My mum was a big surfer. Right. My mother used to be like a gidget woman so she would get on my father's shoulders and ride waves. Wow. So there's photographs of her up there. So I mean she had that sort of fitness and obviously my dad travelled quite a bit so my mum had to be sort of like bodily fit and everything to raise, she raised two children with the help of nana but, you know, she's a very strong independent woman. We didn't have really much transport then so mum was always walking. Yeah, so she was really physical. Mum built billy carts. So mum used to get us all out there and all the kids in the neighbourhood, so mum used to go up to the tip, this is good stories, and she'd go up to the tip and she'd get old prams and then she'd go down to the local fruit shop and she'd get boxes and she'd get the easel from the pram and she'd get the wheels from the pram and then she'd put them on the timber boxes, fruit used to come in timber boxes, and she made all the kids in the neighbourhood billy carts. And I've been to Avalon, it's very hilly. We were always at the beach, you know, we were walking to the beach, swimming at the beach, dad was in the surf club, you know, we'd be as kids running up and down the beach, we had a very earthy upbringing. Outdoorsy beach kind of life, yeah. So the environment very much encouraged it, didn't it? You had the incredible coastline there, you had parents who were very active and then if I go back now to that time when you said you were doing a lot of swimming at school, can you remember that feeling of being a good swimmer, Jo, and what did it feel like? It was amazing, like I just, I absolutely love swimming, still do, and just the excitement of, because I would get into all the finals, and the excitement, I swam breaststroke, freestyle and butterfly, but breaststroke was my thing. And what about actually the physical feeling of it, can you remember like how you felt in your body? I know, I felt fresh and alive, and now I was also a really good runner, and I broke the school record when I first arrived in high school, I broke the school record for cross-country running across sand dunes, can you believe that? I did, so I became a really good, so you were a natural sports person? I was a natural. Okay, tell me about being a tall girl in the 70s, the late 60s and the 70s. I loved being tall, Sarah, like I really enjoyed it, and I still do, I loved being a tall person, not all my girlfriends were tall, but I had another girlfriend that was pretty much equally as tall, we always found the boys were so much smaller than us. But no, I liked being tall, it just felt right, I was always very confident with who I was, and I was always very confident in my body, and as I said, I was aware, I was very aware that I was a lot slimmer than anyone else, I used to find myself a little bit too skinny, I used to think about that. What would you think? I just think, oh gosh, I'm a lot skinny, I don't have any shape, like I don't have any shape. What age do you think you were thinking this? I really started thinking, I think I became more body aware, probably when I was getting up to that 9, 10 bracket, prior to that, I was just being a kid, but I wasn't body aware where I was, I think back in those days, you didn't have, nobody really talked too much about body or anything, you know what I mean, like we didn't. And that's a great lead in, so let's say you're heading towards those adolescent years, and did mum or anyone around you, Nana or anyone, talk to you about periods or anything? Yes, my mum. What did she say? I got really sick with my period, really, really sick. Do you mean every time you got your period? Yes, fainting, cramps, crying, vomiting, it was horrible, and mum put me on the pill, which the doctors recommended when I was only 13. Wow, Jo. Yes, because it was the only thing that would stop me. Did it help? Yes, well I didn't know any different, Sarah, so I was on the pill. For how long? For 30 something. Wow, because as I got older, that's what you did back then, the pill, there was no HIV, not, I mean there was sexually transmitted diseases, but you didn't really, it was the only, the reason why I used condoms back there was not to get pregnant, where we use it for so many reasons. That's true. Okay, so mum did tell you about your period before you got your period, and what age were you then? I got my period when I was about, I think 11. Yeah, and I remember being in the bath once and getting really embarrassed because, and I think, and it was the first time I remember thinking, realising, well knowing that I was changing, but not really worrying about it, but having an embarrassing moment with my mum. What was it? Well, I know that at that point my boobs had just started, as I said, I was really flat chested, but I noticed little, the glands. Yeah, the little buds. Yeah, the little buds, and I had a bit of hair down, and I've got a couple of hairs, and I was thinking, I remember thinking, oh okay, I'm changing, but mum, as I said, I was educated by my mum and my, well not my dad, but by my mum, with books and talking. So mum was pretty, so mum was pretty good, was she? Yeah. About talking openly about stuff, Jo? Yeah, you're changing, and, but she embarrassed me once, and I was in the bathroom, and she came in, she was like, oh look at you in there, and you're getting these things, and look at you down there, and I got, I lost it. I'll never forget. So how did you feel in that moment? Really embarrassed, because I didn't, I, mum was sort of, I was just, I mean, I was like somebody was looking at my body, and no one had really ever looked at my body. Although I grew up in a house, Sarah, where we were in, we were a naked house. Were you? Were what, Nana and everyone? No, no, I don't mean anything, but do you know, no, well no, I saw my Nana naked. Yeah. And Nana saw me naked. Yeah, but Nana wasn't walking around naked. No, but she'd walk around naked. She, when I say we're walking around naked, we, but we were not a naked house. It's kind of like, so none of us, nobody worried until we probably got to our, we started going through puberty. I can't speak for anyone else in my family, but I was the first one to come through until it got to that age. It was nothing for my mum to leave the shower and walk past me into a bedroom, or for me to go into my bedroom after my bath and for anyone to, or even Dad. And your Dad, and yeah, Dad, yeah. Yeah, yeah, no, it's like, no, there was nothing, I mean, and it shouldn't be, you know, it should be okay. It is okay. Absolutely. And seeing and accepting yourself a little bit more. Yeah. Getting to that age, a girlfriend starting to talk about sex. Does Mum give you the sex talk? What are you, where are you getting your information? And is it entering your brain? Yeah, it's entering my brain. Yep. There was a couple of things there. There was obviously the girls at school. And like all girls at school, we all go a little bit experimental with one another at times, you know, like we did. And I don't think we ever told our parents that. They probably thought, I mean, it was so experimental. I remember going to friend's places and another girlfriend and she had the older sister and this girl used to say to me, oh, and Debbie, her name was, oh, and you know, I heard her talking about this and we'd all gather round and we'd listen to each other. But we weren't very inquisitive. So it was nothing that we, in those days, you'd go to someone's house, you might have a bath with your girlfriend or a shower. It just was like everybody popped in the bath because that's what Mums did. Everyone in the bath, you know, and in and out. And so, and this is even in our early teens, started to get puberty. So we were, I remember being with some of my girlfriends. We would all be like looking and we'd be going, oh, look what I've got. And I've had a feeling down there. Oh, really? Did you talk about that? That's great. You were talking about, about sexual feelings. Yeah. I remember, yeah, with my girlfriends. And so, and were any of the girls saying to be sexually active or anything at that age? We were all just a bit more inquisitive about us. I remember going home, Sarah, sometimes after our golf, we'd all go, oh, have you touched that spot? And we'd be talking and then we'd go home and then we'd go, oh, you touched that spot, which was the clitoris. Yeah. And probably around that, maybe there would have been, probably, yeah, 13, 14, 14, maybe. Discovering masturbating, basically. Yeah. Well, if that's what it was then, I don't know. It was just, we all went, well, that feels good. So it wasn't something that mum was going. Was it true? Yeah. It wasn't something that mum was going, you know, you've got a spot there that's clitoris. I found out more through my girlfriends about that, you know. So, but I, I think I was, I've always been quite sexual. My mum in particular, she always had this thing that I was being really promiscuous because I had a lot of male friends. Right. And I always have had, and, but I wasn't. So mum was always, I think was just so serious as I started getting, oh, you know, you know, have you been doing things? I'm like, no, I haven't. And I wasn't. So that was really unusual. And so do you, that sounds to me like it's a bit of an era thing then, is it? Is it a bit worrying about what other people think, do you think? I think it was back then. Yeah. Yeah, it definitely was. And I was a bit of a, I was not wild. Mum would have said I was quite wild back then, but, you know, I'd go off trail back riding with the boys and, I mean. So you were still into your later teens in high school. You're still very much loving the physicality of life. So tell me now about when your body did start changing a lot. So I guess the middle. Developing. Yeah, really developing. And were you, were you, were you excited about it, Jo? Were you? Yeah, I look, I, yeah. How old were you, do you think? I think I was probably more in my late 20s, really. I mean, I developed here and here, but I didn't have boobs even, really. They didn't start popping up until middle to late 20s. Really? Yeah. If I look at photographs and everything of myself then, which I have done, I've got them in party outfits and things, and bras. No, I was quite flat, not flat chested, but I'm, I had a boob, but it was, it was probably a tiny little 10, where now I'm a 14D. Yeah, right. So I found as I've got older, my, my body is just constantly changing. 20s and 30s. Jo's out in the world, living in Sydney, I think, are you at this point? Living in Sydney and one, how are you feeling about your body then? And two, what are you doing with your body that's, that's, that's making Jo feel alive and having fun and, yeah. Right. I felt really good in my body then. I felt alive. What I was doing was dancing every weekend. The partner who was DJing and I've always had such a massive zest for life. So even going, like I said, from the, the later teenage years with the trail bike riding and climbing trees into sort of going down the path and then being in all these massive dance parties where every single weekend I was out dancing. And I remember people used to come up after me and say, well, where do you work out? And I was like, I'll just, I'll be on a dance floor. Because I didn't go to the gym or anything. You didn't? No. No. So you just went out dancing every weekend. And do you remember the feeling when you were dancing, like in your body? Yeah, I just felt, I felt completely different to what I did in my teens, let's put it that way. I felt, I went from this sort of earthy, long haired, surfy, sort of, you know, beachy girl to going to a salon one day with a couple of friends of mine, quite out there, sort of punky friends to having my hair completely chopped short back and sides and bleached white. And that was, and then I met my then partner on the dance floor in a club called the Berlin Club. And then everything just changed. I went through a rockabilly stage as well. But I think, I don't know, I just remember being out there and just feeling free. And just, I felt, it's a very big, it's a feeling of just being alive. You know, I felt always fit when I was out there. I felt good. I felt strong and strong and I still felt really young and youthful and excited. So then you're a woman in your 20s and you're having a relationship and you talked before about being a sexual person. Did you, just would you say completely free in that space and you weren't inhibited and you felt great in your body so you could explore it really freely? Is that what you, would that be a good description or describe it to me? That's a great description. I felt, yeah, I think I just, I did feel good in my body now when I'm reflecting on, I'm reflecting on times we've spent with people even after my relationship went by the by. And then I had, you know, I was single. Yeah, I did. Because now when I think back to what my body was like then to now, I'm a lot bit more conscious about it now. Whereas then I just knew there was, I was toned, you know, toned. And were you enjoying it though? Really, really enjoying it? Yeah, I'd never had really any sort of inhibitions or, well, I have actually a bit later on down the track. I started getting body conscious, but it wasn't because I was tall. It wasn't because I was slim. It wasn't because of anything. I just felt comfortable in myself. And I think a lot of it stems back to the way that I was brought up without any real sort of big things about how I should be with my body or, you know, and having this freedom of being able to walk around the house and no one sort of pinpointing you've got a bit of this or you're too skinny or you haven't got a bit. Did your parents ever talk about their sex life, your mum and dad? They didn't, but we spotted it. Did you? They're like, my house, where'd be the old door shut? The door would be shut on a Saturday afternoon. Oh yeah. We knew what was underneath the bed and cupboard because we, when they were out, we went through and were going, oh, I wonder what's in mum and dad's room. Probably could be looking for jewellery. It was such a game, wasn't it? Having a hunt through mum and dad's wardrobes and finding their bits and bobs. Yeah. So I think coming from that, you know, there was, we knew mum and dad had sex. So we knew what sex was from there. And we were like, well, that's what you do. And I just think, just tying it into the story of, you know, this naturalness and acceptance and your Jo growing and being this woman in the world, and perhaps compared to some other women where there's been, especially back in the 70s and 80s and before, obviously, there's a lot of commentary on our bodies. You know what I mean? And if you've got too many pounds on or you're this or that or the other, but also commentary on your, on how you should be sexually as well, either from a religious point of view or just from a parental opinion, you know. Did you think about having babies when you were throughout your, like, teens or early twenties or? No, I didn't then. Yeah. No, I didn't. I didn't until I was in a relationship, that same relationship when I hit 30. And that's when I said to my then partner, I wanted to have a baby. And that really became something very, very big for me. And I really- Describe that to me. What does big mean? Oh, it was just, big was just, I just felt it. I, it was my time. I knew I was 30. I'd been in a relationship with someone for nearly 10 years. And I felt, and we were set where we could have a baby. And it was just like this really overwhelming emotional feeling where I wanted to have a child. And sadly he didn't. Yeah. He still doesn't have children, but, but no, I just really, I just knew. And I was like this ache and I described it to a friend of mine once. And she said, it's a wonderful thing, Jo. She said, you don't say to me, oh, Leah, I'm really missing. I'm having a child. I always used to say to Leah, I really want that feeling in here. Holding and- Having a baby inside. Jo's holding her belly as she says. Yeah, I'm holding my belly. And she said, isn't that beautiful? You wanted to have that. I said, I wanted to carry that child. So, and that's what I've missed. So tell me about that. So, so he says, I don't want to. What, what happens then? Was it at the end of the relationship or? I think that was like a big turning point in our relationship and it wasn't, we didn't break up for those reasons. Yeah. I felt that there was a shift in our relationship then because it became, well, we wanted two different things and I did want to have children. So was it ticking away in your brain, Jo? Like, tell me about that. Like, or in your body, even more importantly, was it, did you find you were feeling, getting those, that yearning in your body more, or do you think you were losing? I was, I was getting the yearning, but I'm very much a person, Sarah, that, when something can't be at a particular, or something's going to happen at a particular point in time, and I've just got to work with what I've got at the point. I can't, I just, it's not that I block things out. It's just, I get on with life and I know that what I've got to do next. And I just keep sort of moving. And I'm, I'm thinking just quickly to going back when you, we've talked about, and you said, oh, you've got these different, you know, your different ways with your sexuality or this or that. And I just, one thing I'd like to say, which was, I was with three different grown women until I was 11, which was my auntie, my mother, and my nana, and they all shaped me. Yeah, amazing. And they all gave me something, you know, my auntie who was, you know, I mean, um, she was fantastic. And so she was the youthful one that was going, it's okay. Yeah. And then my mother that was going, that's not okay. And then my nana that was going, oh, darling, come here and let me, so it was wonderful. Well, it is wonderful because, yeah, and it is wonderful because as a parent, you have your fault lines, and you can be good at some stuff and, and absolutely shit at other stuff. And that's why the village is so important, because perhaps where you're missing something, they go to your best mate, or they go to your sisters, you know, or your mother, or their, or your mother-in-law or whatever friends. And so I think absolutely, that exactly like you're talking about is a beautiful example of how that probably fed into your confidence. Yeah, you know, and you're nurturing. So you're heading towards your late 30s into your 40s. You've given away the idea of having a child? No, no. Oh, tell me, tell me more. No, so, so that relationship finished in my early 30s. Then I was single again, just having, you know, a nice time. But yeah, I was having a good time, had all my gay mates and, but I was always like, I'm going to have a baby, I'm going to have a baby. Yeah. And I think, gosh, I was, um, I knew that by that age of 37, I was going to have to, but it was a matter of meeting someone then too. Sure. I can't just, I didn't want to just go and, I wanted to have that whole family. Okay. I was going to say to you, did you ever think about, you know, I was freezing and egg-stinged. A little bit. Not really. No. Yeah. A lot of it that wasn't there. It was just starting to be about, and some of my friends had talked to me about it, but it wasn't that in there that it was, that I would have really thought about it. Do you know what I mean? Like I just went, oh no, I'm just going to meet somebody. And then I did meet someone who was a little bit younger than me and I was then 37. And then I said to him, I don't want to get involved with you, but because I want to have a child. And he said, okay. He said, let's go for a couple of years. And if we're still together, we'll have it. So as we went on, I, we, it was getting to that two years, great relationship. We were having such a great time together. And I went and had all the tests done and I was good to go. And I was, I was about to hit 39, but they said, you've got to do it now. So I went home with all the tests and said, great. Well, we can, you know, we've made it. There's never been any conversation about us not having one. It's always been. And when I put all of that down, he backed out. It's been quite, that was, so that for me, and that then relationship didn't work for very much longer after that, because it was too, it became an issue and it was just, it just became too emotional for me. Did that feel, did it feel like, it's a big question. Did it feel like grief? Oh, it was grief. So that was grief, definitely. And then as we went on, like he had, he had a very strong mother of a particular nationality and, and she was very, still very old school and she'd never really liked me. So he had that side of things to deal with. So here's another sort of woman coming into the equation. Then he was saying to me, well, look, you know, it doesn't matter because if we're, we can still go for another few years and then adopt. And I was like, well, I don't mind adopting, but I mean, this wasn't the deal. Like I'm here now. That wasn't the deal. That wasn't the deal. Anyway, it became not good. And yeah, and then my emotions then were just shocking. I was just really a mess because I was freaking out going, well, I've just spent, I wasn't going to get involved with you. I was, I am going to, I was, I've just spent these couple of years with you and it's great. Like it was good. It was good. When we, when we then broke up, it was terrible grief where I had to, I had to have a lot of counselling. And that was one thing my counsellor said, you're not just grieving from the loss of a partner now, you're grieving for the loss of a child. So, and that's what happened. And I couldn't, because I said, well, I'm not, look at me, I'm not in a state to even go and have one now or meet a man. And I'm not going to do that to a man. How's the fallout from that, from that kind of, look, and I understand people, I understand, you know, but kind of a deal breaker, wasn't it? The deal was broken. And you got to, had to wear those consequences strongly. Strongly. So I just had to get myself through it. And, and when you're talking about feelings in body, there's, and it went on for quite a few years and it stopped now, where I would just think about having the baby and going, I'm not having one. Like, it's just, and then I used to get this really big, empty feeling in my belly. It was like this empty feeling and I'd go, oh, and then the tears would start coming up and I'd go, because I, oh, and that's when Lisa said to me too, you always just wanted to feel it. Like, amazing. I didn't get to try and do that this lifetime. People have said to me, I'm, as you know, I'm very motherly and very nurturing and, and it's interesting. You didn't have one this lifetime. So I've just said to them on many occasions, I believe that we've been here, some of us have been here before this, we've got different lives to do. And I just said, look, I'm pretty sure in my last life, I was like Mark Kettle, with 17 kids. And I think I've been able to bring to this life so much knowledge, so much love and so much joy, but I needed a rest, so the universe is giving me a rest. So it's all going to be carried over into Lisa's nephews and friends' kids. Aren't they lucky. By this, by this stage, then obviously you might be heading towards starting to start perimenopause, into perimenopause, do you remember a bit? Yeah, I do. Well, then it was probably another eight years. Yeah. So I went, my menopause came on quite quickly. Just my period started to slow down in like probably around 49. And, and then it was on and off between 49 and 51. Sometimes very gushy, sometimes just not there. I wasn't getting any PMT at that point. I used to get a lot of that. I used to get a lot of PMT, teary, crazy, nutty, nutty, all the stuff that goes with it, you know. I mean, women go through so much, don't they? So many changes and having to, and we have to be so strong to be able to get through it all. And we have to find different ways to get through it all. How did you get through menopause, Jo? I just was very headstrong. Yeah. Yeah. Was your body changing too? Yeah, so my body started to change. What was happening? Um, belly. Yeah. So that's one thing, Sarah. I've always, no matter how slim or tall or, you know, dance weight off, all that sort of stuff, I've been, I've always had a little belly. And it's even like popped a little bit, even when I was slim. I don't, I believe it's stomach muscles and strength. Well, generally, it's yours. It's Jo, and it's yours. That's right. You know, it's you. It's been in everyone's, I call it the joey handly belly, or the handly bread belly. But that's when, that was the first time in my life I started to feel a bit like, body wise. What is that? What does that mean? What does that mean? It was just a bit heavy. Okay. It's a feeling, it's a feeling of, it's like, yeah, almost a heavy feeling. It's a, it's almost a, like, tired, you were tired too? A bit tired, but it's just, you don't have that really big sparkly lift. It's like, it's almost like you yourself drop a little bit. You become heavy. I felt not heavy. It's a really interesting description because, you know, we lose a lot of estrogen and estrogen is like an elixir for get up and go. You know, I just noticed a change and I was looking and I was going, Oh, I've got to do something right. But I wasn't, I was just sort of riding it. I wasn't feeling great about myself. I was feeling mentally good, but I wasn't feeling great about my body. Pants that I used to be able to fit into. I couldn't get, you know, done up across the waist, all that sort of thing. Or you would be sitting there and that big roll would start to come over the top of your, your jeans. And, but I knew it was my change. I knew it was my being changed, but I wasn't that, I wasn't, I wasn't doing as much then either. Cause I was living in Portugal when that all went through. I was... Did it change how you felt about yourself sexually around that time? Those changes in your body? Do you think? No, no, not really. When you said I wasn't doing anything, when did you start doing whatever you were doing and what was it? I went from about being generally, I was around sort of in my younger days, probably around 60 kilos. Then in, you know, the latter part might've been about 70 kilos. Then all of a sudden I became sort of 82, 83 kilos. And actually when I, when I, when I went through the grieving process, I lost 10 kilos because I was that not well, but I wasn't really worried about it. I was more concentrating on my mental side of things with the menopause. Cause I was at that point and other things. Sounds like a bad relationship. I haven't, I've had good relationships that haven't worked out. So that's the way I look at it. So at that point I was going nearly about to go through, well, it started to go through almost getting into a divorce. So I went to the doctors and I've always gone to a doctor and spoken about how I feel. How can I, what can I do? Which is, and I've always gone off if I'm in my latter part of life and, and from the time I did the grieving with counsellors or a life coach to help me through, I'm very, very aware that you can't do these things alone. And I'm never ashamed to say, I'm not feeling great. I've got to fix myself. So the doctor was really gorgeous. She was in Portugal and she just said to me, look, your body's changing. You're going through menopause. You're also going through all these other emotional things in your relationship. And then she gave me this circle thing that I had to write, like what it was like in my daily life to how I felt mentally. And then it really all came down to the menopause in my daily life and how we could kind of fix this. And she said to me, I want, I'm not, I don't, you don't, don't go on any HRT just yet because you, you're not, it's too early. She just said, you just need to go and do fitness, start walking, have baths, do some meditation, go and read a good, you know, positive book, anything that's going to help you feel better. And probably all, and I went and did Reiki as well in Portugal. And that lifts a lot of negative energy out. And I picked up this book. I don't know what the name of it is. And the first thing in it was about menopause was like how we can change it. We can either carry the anger and all the frustrations and all the crazy things that come with it. But you can also, this book said, you can turn it around by healthy living. Not going to work for everybody. And I just read those three things. So I gave up smoking. To me, I was like, I've got to stop smoking. I stopped smoking during a divorce, which is crazy. And I was representing myself through that divorce across the world. So I was really like strong and empowered and just said, right, I want to try and just get through this mentally. Okay. So I stopped smoking. And then I did start my, I started my swimming again, started doing laps, got back into that walking. I had a big ocean pool by me and I used to go every single night and swim 20 laps. Do you remember how you felt when you were, when you started doing those things, both in your body, but in your mind, did it make these changes for you, would you say? Yes. It made the difference. Wow. It absolutely made the difference. Number one, I felt fantastic. I was like, I finally kick cigarettes. Like I've just done it. I've never, ever had a puff on a cigarette since that day. And I was like, I'm so proud of myself for doing that. So that was empowering anyway. Yeah. And then I got through it without any HRT. And there was a time I started to get a bit sort of depressed and, and I went back to a doctor in Sydney. It was a good doctor. And she said the same, she did the same wheel. And she said, look, let's see if we can get you to go and see somebody. She put me onto this great life coach and this life coach. And I just clicked and I was going to her every few weeks. And she also helped me get through by giving me exercises to do. Yeah. So you were really tackling it from the body point of view, but also kind of from the body and the mental. Yeah, from the body. But once I got back into what I love to do, which was swimming, it just changed it all around. And isn't it interesting? I love that. I love that you were back into your swimming and that as a little girl, you started because I really believe that we come back and we do the things that we actually loved when we were a child, you know, that really brought us great joy. And you were by a beach, body memory, but there's this memory of feeling alive and strong and all these things, you know, that you do it. Okay, so we're Joe now in heading towards in your 50s, and starting to really get a handle on, you know, how you're going to navigate your menopausal time. And then there's a bit of a, there's a bit of a handbrake moment again for you, isn't there? In the form of? Oh, the cancer. She's forgotten about it. No, I can talk about anything. I mean, yeah, I can. So how old were you, Joe? So I was 60. I turned 60. So I'm at 60, turn 60. I'd lost three friends to cancer, three friends and another one who is learning to walk again. That sparked me to really listen to my body. Yeah. And I had a pinched nerve in which I found out was that's all it was in my shoulder blade, right shoulder blade. And I'd had it for about six months and I couldn't move my shoulder properly. And I was thinking, Oh God, I better just get it checked. And because they scanned my whole back, top of my back at that point, it was the left hand. So that was the right, the nerve. They found the spot on the lung, on the left lung in that moment. And so, which was a massive shock for me because my whole world got turned upside down. Well, nobody could tell me if I was going to live or die at that point. I knew that, I knew it wasn't big. So I knew my chances were pretty good of survival, but they didn't know until they put me through this whole ringer of, you know, biopsy. They biopsy your lung through the back of your, into your lung and take pieces while you're awake. I had a funny story there because again, mental health, body, you know, just the whole thing for me. I was in there with my eye mask, my spiritual sort of meditation, hearing things, my lavender oil. I was in the waiting room thinking, Oh, I knew it was going to be horrendous. It was terrible. I was really lucky to get through. I quickly switched up everything. I moved out of my house, put myself in a safe place up near my mom and my sister. And because, okay, so this is a great thing because I was physically fit. So they do lung capacity tests on you. And I, they said they were able to take out the whole left lobe of my lung. They said, and because of my age, they said, had I not been fit at my age, they could have only taken out the piece of cancer and the surrounds. But the whole left lobe, so you're left with right hand, two, three lobes. Do you remember feeling at this point in time, because you'd always been this person with this confidence, you know, and this in your body, particularly, did you feel confident that you were going to get through it, Jo? Like, did you feel confident in your, not your mind, in your body? I did. Yeah, I did. Yeah. So Sarah, that's where I then, I, I just went boom, boom, boom. I'm moving out of my place. I'm putting myself in a really healthy spot. They told me to even get through this operation, I was going to have to go out and start not running marathons, but I had to start running, walking, climbing mountains. Oh yeah, I had to build my lungs up. Is that what they said? Oh yeah. So I had to really, really use them. Yeah, I had to use my lungs. So I had four weeks. Hang on, this is after the operation, right? Before. Before. Yeah, and then after. And then after, okay. Yeah, but before the operation, to have this operation, I had to go into hospital even fitter than what I was, and I had to really, really toughen up my lungs. And that was by walking. Then I had to do all these breathing exercises, because I had to go back and do lung capacity tests before I even went into hospital, because if my lung capacity hadn't have been at a particular level, I wasn't ready to have this bit of lung taken out. Wow. I think sometimes with all our fitness stuff and our movement stuff, there's such an emphasis on the outside, and we forget that inside there's a heart and there's lungs that needs this, as much as the muscles and the shape and the weight and all these other things, not only heart and lungs, obviously, all the other organs, lymph, everything that needs movement, but because we can't see it. No, that's right. And that's true, Sarah. And I've just started with Fremantle Hospital, a physio. Yeah. I've already been had one thing with them. So they said what we need to do. And they said, it's not just you, Jo. They said, like, we're getting a lot of older people that we're bringing in here now to put them on programs, because we need to build up all the muscles around the heart and the lungs. What does it feel like in your body now, Jo? I get more exhausted in, like, my breathing. So I went to the south coast with my partner and his brother. We walked up some hills, and they could walk further than me without me getting puffed out. But I could walk a good distance, but then I'd have to stop and catch. So I'd spoken to the doctor about that, and he said, that's normal because your lung capacity isn't as great as what it used to be. But we now need to build that. And I said to them, look, if that's how I'm feeling now at 60, I don't want to be at 80 and I can't walk down the shops. I want to be as fit as possible. I want to manage myself now to get me there. Work at it. How do you feel, Jo, now, that huge big story we've gone through, all those amazing things that have happened, and how do you feel in your 62 year old body? The best ever. Oh, amazing. Tell me about that. When I say the best ever, the best that I could feel, I think, at this particular age, and I, yeah, I'm feeling, as I said, I've got to build the lung capacity. So I'm not feeling the best ever that I've ever felt inside, because when I get exhausted in the lungs, I get a bit nauseous because you start to get a lack of oxygen. But as far as fitness goes, Sarah, I'm lucky enough to have a great partner that's very fit, and he's always encouraging me to, you know, just get it. If you can't do something, stretch. Walk down a river or something. But I'm feeling great. Because of all this, too, I just do exercise every single day. So I either do yoga, Pilates. I'm about to start swimming. I've joined the leisure centre. I've gone to the gym. I've got the program going at the hospital. And I mean, it's crucial to you. It's crucial for everyone. But it's actually really crucial to you, isn't it? It's really rebuilding. Jo, at 62, when do you feel most alive in your body now? What are you doing, Jo? When I'm exercising, actually. Yeah, I really am. I'm feeling, and sex. And I love sex. Yay! That's so cool. I do. I really love sex. I love that. But no, that makes me feel good, too, because I just feel the endorphins and you just go, oh. It's like I described it to my partner the other day for me. I said, you know what? That's like having a really good massage. I said, you know when you go and have a massage and somebody just, first of all, pushes on your back or something and you go, oh. Yeah. And I said, yeah, what a good start to the day. How do you imagine yourself going forward into your 70s and your 80s? Fit. I see myself fit. Bodily fit. I've definitely noticed a difference in shape in my body recently. I've got my waist back. I've still got my belly. I've still got a handy belly. Yeah. And I just want to be the best version of myself, Sarah. My body's probably, it's not going to have all the trimmings that it used to. There's things sagging down here even now. There is. It sort of drops a little bit down there as well now. Just a little bit. But that's okay. That's part of being a woman. Totally. Or a man. I'm just a believer that you've just got to be happy within yourself, but you've got to do the best possible thing to make the best version of yourself as well. I want to be having a great time still. I want to be traveling and I want to be fit enough. I want to be fit enough to walk up the stairs, to jump in a pool, to walk onto the sand. Jo, you've been so generous with me. So, so generous and open. And I'm really, really, I'm so grateful for that. And it's been absolutely fantastic. And what a story. Thank you, Sarah. And thanks so much for having me. I felt really proud and honored that you'd asked me to do this because I, yeah, it's great to have a story to tell. And I just hope I can inspire other people. And...