pH 14 Episode 4/5: Dr. Craig Hawker and Dr

A chemistry professor discusses the challenges of teaching a class with students from different backgrounds. He sometimes holds extra sessions to help non-chemistry students catch up. The professor believes there is a disconnect between students and professors and wants to create a personal relationship with his students. He also discusses the importance of making connections between chemistry concepts and real-life applications. The host then asks the professor about his research, which focuses on developing synthetic techniques for functional materials, including 3D printing. The professor highlights the use of cutting-edge 3D printing techniques to print materials with different properties. He also mentions the benefits of rapid manufacturing and small lot sizes in 3D printing. students from chemistry, students from physics, and so it's a difficult class to teach in that the backgrounds are so different. Yeah, so you're kind of having to cater to like whatever people have or don't have. Yeah, sometimes I do kind of after class sessions just to bring some of the non-chemistry people up to speed. Up to speed, yeah. I sometimes, you know, draw a benzene ring on the board and I'll do, you know, a hexagon with a circle in it. Yeah. And I've had, in the past, one of the students who will come up to me after class who has understood everything but didn't understand the hexagon. And then it's okay, we're going to stay after class five, ten minutes to go through all the things that you did not understand. That's funny. Yeah. I didn't even think about that. Like, there's such a huge range of knowledge. I mean, I feel like, you know, like math or like basic things pretty much get covered for the most part. If not in high school, like just sort of in early undergrad stuff. But like, I think there's a lot of science topics that like, because I'm a chemistry student, so I've gone through just sort of the, as close to general chemistry knowledge as you can really get. And so there's a lot of things I think I take for granted. Like, I'm like trying to show my friends, like I have mechanical engineering roommates, I have comp sci roommates, I have a pretty wide range of like pretty intelligent people and it's like they have no idea what they're looking at. And they're not dumb, they just don't, they've never been used to it. I don't know what your undergraduate experience or course selection is like, but when I was an undergraduate at the University of Queensland, we basically were funneled into chemistry from, you know, nearly year two onwards. So that second, third and fourth year was all chemistry. And so there was a big, big, big dose of chemistry. It's not the same, you know, at UCSB where you have to have prerequisites outside. It's harder to do that much chemistry. That's true. I mean, there is a degree of pre-understanding you have to have, but it's not as much as you would think. They're pretty comprehensive, like in Gen Chem, Early O Chem. But unless you actively seek it out, there's so much that gets missed. You know what I mean? And I teach the Introduction to Public Chemistry class to make it accessible. Because I want students not to leave every student being a world expert. I want them all to leave, some are experts and some in the future will be able to say, I remember that. I now know what polystyrene is, like when it's made by this method. I remember how you build the readability into polyester. Yeah, yeah. I think that's really an interesting insight. You know, that was sort of the background behind creating this thing in the first place was that we felt that there was a disconnect between student and professor that's really hard to bridge. You can only have so many office hours, so many icebreakers or seminars or whatever to relate. The relation ultimately is the work. It's the stuff you're teaching, that's how you relate to these people. They know it and then they learn it from you. But I think, just from my own personal experience, I think that I would have cared a little bit more in the past had I felt more of a personal relationship with my professors. So that's kind of what we're hoping to get at. And so hearing something like that where you're walking through the process of not only what am I going to teach in this class, like what subjects, but how. And how am I going to present it and how am I going to partition it out is super duper important. Well, you know, the other thing that I find extremely important is the connection. I want everyone in that class to be able to go, oh, I did not realize that that product that I use every day is so useful because of this polymer, because of this material. I have one class where I go into some of the chemistry behind photoresist and not everyone knows what a photoresist is, not everyone cares what a photoresist is, but all of the microelectronics that we have displayed in front of us with your phone, your computer, microphone, chips everywhere. And it's really interesting fundamental chemistry and polymer chemistry that allows you to make these on the scale that people make them. And so if I can get just a few students every lecture to go, wow, I didn't realize that was in that product, or I used my shampoo bottle this morning and the polyethylene glycol in that is made this way. The connection is also really important. Well, since we're trying to get the ball rolling, so I guess I'll just kind of start, do the intro and get things going. Welcome everybody, pH14, A Very Basic Podcast. I'm your host, Ben Cray. As always, we're hosted by the UCSB Chemistry Club. Today I have a very, very special guest, Dr. Craig Hawker. Dr. Hawker, how are you doing today? Not bad, how are you, Ben? I'm doing excellent. I'm very, very excited for this. I've been waiting a long time to finally get to talk to you. So we usually like to start each show, I mean, I guess hopefully that can be a cold open because I thought that was awesome. Hopefully we can find a way to keep that. But we like to start with just a little icebreaker, something not chemistry related to kind of get the ball rolling. If it's not painfully obvious, you are Australian. I am Australian. You are Australian, yes. And I've lived in the United States for many, many years, but I still have my Australian accent. It was something I don't think you'll ever get rid of. So one thing about Australia in relation to the United States that just by looking at a map is fairly obvious is that you are very far away. It's a very long flight. How long is the flight from here to say like New York to JFK or something like that? So from here to JFK, so I just flew back on the weekend from D.C. and that's a four and a half hour flight. A flight from Los Angeles to Sydney is 14 to 14 and a half hours. Fourteen hours. That is crazy. I've been on a 12-hour flight before. I went from L.A. to Berlin, but I mean that was at the very limit of what I was capable of. And you've got another two to three hours to go. You've got another two to three hours to go, which just sounds brutal. So I'm curious. There's a famous Australian historian who coined the phrase Australia suffers from the tyranny of distance. And it's actually true. It is. I did undergraduate in Australia and we did not have many speakers come through. We weren't that exposed because it's a long way from everywhere. And certainly way pre-internet as well. Right. So you're either in person or, I don't know, a ship carries a letter. The range of speakers that we get through here at UCSB is special and spectacular. Definitely, yeah. Dave McMillan, Nobel Prize winner, will be giving a lecture here next week. So that's a nice thing to look forward to. Yeah, I'll be sure to attend, definitely. The icebreaker question I wanted to get at was what are your tips for flying for passing the time? Because 14 hours is a long time. I'm sure you've done it many times. Or just flights in general, because I know you're a busy guy. What would be your best airline advice for people on the long extrusion? Upgrade to business class. Is it worth it? Yes, it is. It is more than worth it. I have flown when I was younger in 56B to Australia and back. So that's the middle seat in far, far back in the plane. And I prefer to be up the front of the plane. So business but not quite first class. Do you think first class is worth it? Do you think it's a scam? It's hard to find first class seats these days on American carriers. I think American is the only last one. And the fact that I know that shows you that I fly too. What's your favorite airport to fly into? I like San Francisco. Yeah, me too. I like San Francisco a lot. I'm from the Bay, so that's usually my exit zone. And I love it. It's really nice. San Francisco, I lived in the Bay Area for 10 years. It's a nice, well laid out airport. The new international terminal is great. So San Francisco, I like a lot. That's a good answer. Great answer. So let's move on just a little bit. Slight detour, I know. But I just want to get right into it. Let's talk about your research. Research lab here at UCSB. Just a little rundown for those uninitiated, for our listeners. What would be like your sort of elevator pitch regarding your research here at UCSB? So we make stuff. And by that I mean we try and develop synthetic techniques that allow people to make functional materials, functionalized polymers, cross-linked networks. We try and combine really cutting edge fundamental research with the applications. And so I've always been very interested in applications. And so that I think is a really good driver for pushing you to develop really interesting new strategies and synthetic techniques. So just like pretty much going off of whatever you have presented on your website, it seems mostly to be polymer-based. A lot of stuff related to 3D printing, if that's correct, if that's still accurate. Just digging a little more into the details. I'm curious a lot mostly about the 3D printing because I think that's really interesting. What would be the details on that? Well, 3D printing I think has a lot to offer in terms of rapid manufacturing, manufacturing of small lot sizes, etc. And so if we think about 3D printing, there's a number of basic techniques, but that really limits the range of materials that you can print. Our strategy here at UCSB is to use some of the more cutting-edge 3D printing techniques. We have one of the latest printers from a Bay Area company called Carbon that is incredibly fast, incredibly accurate, and allows you to print materials with a range of different properties. And that's really where our attention and focus is directed. Printing materials extremely quickly, but materials that you can have different mechanical properties, different chemical functionalities, so again, there's a lot of potential applications that arise from those fundamental strategies. What are some of the applications you're most excited about? So, we're really excited about printing materials for drug delivery, and so 3D printed structures that can be inserted into the body and then perform a function. We're also really interested in 3D printing biological systems. And so by that I mean we 3D print a matrix and that matrix may contain bacteria, mammalian cells and that is then scaffolded to allow those cells to express certain signals that we can use as receptors or detection agents or then the cells can digest these scaffolds and then form a, for example, a new part that you can then use in biomedical use. So I'm curious a little bit about your background that got you into this field of research. Like you said, you were undergrad in Australia and then you so I'm trying to read my notes. I did a PhD in the UK. PhD in the UK and then it was back to Australia, is that correct? Or do I have the timer wrong? So, my multiple journeys around the world as you said, started as an undergraduate in Australia I did my PhD at the University of Cambridge in the UK. Then I went to Cornell as a postdoc. That was right, Cornell. And then from Cornell I went back to Australia, found it was really difficult to do the research that I wanted in Australia and so that's when I came back to the States worked at IBM Research for 10-11 years in the Bay Area and then from IBM came down here to UC Santa Barbara. Yeah. So it was academia, academia industry, back to academia, kind of flip-flopping a little bit. This is probably a good time today to bring up this quote. We talked with Dr. DeVries, that was our most recent guest, who also works at IBM and he had a really interesting quote. It was sort of the question that brought this out was the differences in working with academia and working with industry and some of the overlaps between those two things which we'll get into later with Biopacific. He said, quote, At IBM there is no limitation as opposed to university research where sometimes you have to use duct tape and chewing gum. Those are his words. On the other hand, I sometimes thought we were not smart enough. At IBM you could do it the hard way and spend as much money as you needed. Sometimes in academia you need to be a little bit more clever. I'm curious about your thoughts on that quote and just your general thoughts between industry and academia being so involved with both. Well, let me kind of rephrase and give you what my sense of academia and industry is. I think they're very, very similar. In academia, we have multiple products. One is our research, but one that we often forget about is that our most valuable product are our students. So we're teaching them how to think, how to attack a problem. In industry, it's very similar. The product is obviously something that you sell, but again, to get to that point, you have to understand the problem, you have to attack the problem, you have to come up with a solution. So they're both problem-based research. The products are slightly different, but they're, I think, extremely similar. For my 20 years that I've been here at UCSB, I've really focused on trying to bring some of the more industrial approaches to research to the education students to the research that we do here at UCSB. Would you say that that has kind of gone both ways, where your work that you've done in industry in more recent years, have you tried to institute some of the academia and student research philosophy back into industry? Oh, absolutely. There's a lot of back and forth, and I think that both can really learn from each other. And so many of the more recent collaborations that we've had with industry or companies that have had the exciting time helping to establish and then see the companies really blossom, you really see that there is these connections between the training of students, the attacking of problems, fundamental research, and proprietary research. And the work that you're insinuating is, I'm assuming, Olaplex. That's something you were heavily involved with, is that correct? Right, so I've had, again, since I was at IBM, I've been involved in a range of start-up companies. Way back, a company called Cimex, and from Cimex, there was a whole series of pharmaceutical companies. Ellipsa and Relipsa are just two examples. And also, as you pointed out, in the personal care area, Olaplex has been a big success in recent years. I think I read somewhere you have something like 45 different patents. Does that sound like a decorate number? Probably nowadays, something like 80 plus. Oh, wow. So, if anybody from Wikipedia is listening, you've got to get on that. You've got to fix that. You're giving me false information here. What's your least favorite patent? What's your most non-exciting one? Maybe one you'd be willing to pass on to somebody else? Yeah, that's an answer that I've actually... that's a question I've never actually thought about. I'm not sure I have an answer. I find them all exciting at the time. Right, right, right. No, of course. Um... I want to ask about some advice you might have for undergraduate students in getting involved with research, because I know from personal experience it can be rather daunting. It seems like a lot of fields on campus have a pretty high ceiling of entry, or at least so it seems, just from the outsider's perspective. What would be your general advice to undergrads looking to get into research or maybe on the fence about, should I get into research? It's a big time commitment, better look really good on a resume, all these sort of considerations that people have. I would strongly encourage people to get involved, and I think that the time factor can be, you know, I think that can be addressed. The one thing that I would encourage, you know, all of the students to do, is to realize that getting involved in research will give them experiences about how different teams work, how different problems are attacked. So if it's as simple as attending group meetings once or twice a week, that can also be a really interesting experience. So I just got back from a lecture that I had to give at Virginia Tech, and one of the new faculty members at Virginia Tech is one of my former undergraduate students, Adrian Figg, who was, like you, an undergraduate in the chemistry department 10 plus years ago, and now he's doing really well as an assistant professor. And again, one of the things was he got involved with the group, started working with some of the members in the group, understood how research worked, he then took advantage of one of the programs that still exists in UCSB, and he did a summer internship in the Netherlands, and that, as he was telling me recently, was one of the things that really got him excited about research. This is actually something that was brought to my attention more recently. You mentioned summer internships, and this is actually sort of related to what we'll talk about later with the National Science Foundation, which is involved also with Biopacific, I'm correct. They have this thing called the REU, which is... Research experiences for undergraduates. Research experience for undergraduates. Huge, huge database of all these different universities that offer summer... pretty much summer research internships with stipends and all these other benefits for undergraduate students. So if it's something that you guys are interested in, I would highly recommend it. It's nsf.gov, the REU, Research Experience for Undergraduates for Chemistry, Biochemistry, Engineering, whatever else it may be. Tons and tons and tons of great opportunities with that. I know I wholeheartedly endorse it. Let's see, I was looking at something. Obviously we cut the things where I'm going uh and uh and reading things like a dunce. Um... You can come in, sorry. We're editing. We're editing. We're editing a little mic. No worries. No worries. Actually one of mine's in here so I'm trying to get the proximity to the mic a little bit. Um... Let's see. This is complicated. I don't know how to do this. We'll just continue with mine. Yeah. And then we'll stop. Then we'll do... I think we're getting close to... Have you probably heard some of the statements that I've made? Yeah. Um... Let's see here. So... So it seems that actually this is funny. Um... This seems a good time actually. We have a segment in our previous episodes and also going forward that we call Bluebooked. In the past it was basically we would bring out old test questions of professors and see if they could answer them on the fly. We could not find anything for you but we did find something that was interesting which was this photo right here. I'm curious and obviously I'll put this up for the audio listeners. I'm curious if you could give me the background on this photo, if you remember. Yes, for sure. So this was a promotional photograph that UCSB did. Um... I think when... Oh, I'm just trying to remember. It was some award that I received. And they wanted a action photo and so it is me holding a film line flask with a fluorescent material. I have my safety coat on. I have gloves on. I have the appropriate safety goggles. So it's a static photo. It appears you're wearing... Is that some sort of football, soccer jersey going on underneath? It's an Australian rugby uniform. A rugby uniform. With the buttons undone on the lab coat. Right. I've got to get the rugby jersey to be seen. Yeah, of course. You've got to rep, for sure. Do you remember what rugby team that is? Is that someone you supported or is that just a shirt that you happen to have? Oh, it's the Wallabies. The Wallabies. It's the Australian national team. Awesome. Are you a rugby fan? I do like most sports. Yeah. And, you know, Australia just lost to Fiji in the Rugby World Cup. I heard that was going on, Rugby World Cup. And so we need to win the next two pool games or we're going home. And that's going to be a national incident. It's a big deal in Australia. Exactly. Because they also have Australian football, correct? That's a separate thing though, right? That is a very separate thing. I could give you a 30 minute lecture on Australian rules fully. I could give an hour lecture on cricket, but I don't think many people would be interested. Well, maybe when the new podcast Sports Edition starts, we can get Dr. Hocker back on. Let's see, do I have anything else worthwhile? I'm really making my job very difficult editing wise here. Apologies. I think we're good. I think I went through everything. If you want to look through some of these questions and see if there's anything that piques your interest, this is pretty much what we had going on for you. There's a lot of olfactory related things. I'm not so sure how much you want to delve into that though. Totally okay if you don't. I can answer some questions if you want to. I'm happy to answer anything. We can touch on it a little bit. We might have to jump things around. For a brief explanation, again, elevator pitch, what is Olaplex? How did it start? What is the chemically interesting thing about it that makes it unique? Olaplex was a real new category in hair care. Bond building, really protecting hair from damage during normal day-to-day life, but also especially during chemical treatment. There's a lot of chemistry that is done when people go to a hair care professional. When you dye your hair, when you bleach your hair, that's a lot of chemistry. So the idea behind Olaplex, which hadn't been really addressed in the industry at all, can we mitigate that damage and can we repair damaged hair? Was that something that you were interested in prior to working on that or was it more something you kind of just fell into, so to speak? It was very much the latter. So we had absolutely no research in the area of hair care. We didn't really have any interest in the area as well. But I was taught many years ago to always look for opportunities and take calls when people are trying to contact you to discuss a problem. So I was lucky enough to be contacted by a local entrepreneur, Dean Crystal. In essence, Dean said I have an idea. I'm not a scientist. I hear that you're a good polymer chemist. What do you think? Can we work together? Going a long way forward, we decided to start Olaplex and one of my senior scientists at that time, Eric Presley, who was also a postdoc with me, as well as my first graduate student here at UCSB. Eric was looking for a new challenge. We decided to start Olaplex in Eric's garage and it proved to be wildly successful. It invented this whole new category in hair care and is today an extremely large and successful company. I love that you said it started out of the garage. That's like the most quintessential, perfect storybook way of any company. It's like Apple and all these places. They are like pictures of Steve Wozniak's garage. They all started out of it. That's awesome. I love that. It's even more storybook than that because Eric, at the time, was living with a number of other graduate students here at UCSB. One of those students that he was living with was John Rogers. Oh, sorry. James Rogers. Let me start again. It had an even more storybook feel to it. At that time, Eric was living with another PhD student here at UCSB, James Rogers. At the same time that we were doing the initial work for Olaplex on one side of the garage, Jane was working on the other side of the garage starting Appeal. Really? As you know, Appeal is one of the most, one of the big success stories here out of UCSB in terms of startup companies located on the other side of the airport. Of course. And has just really interesting work in trying to solve some of the big societal challenges with respect to preserving and feeding the world. Yeah, they've been a great resource for the Chemistry Club already. They had a excursion to their offices recently. Definitely working with them in the future. They're excellent. They do amazing work. For two extremely successful startup companies to come out of the same garage at the same time is, I think, special. That's amazing. I have told Eric and James multiple times that they should have bought that house and set it up and made a museum out of it. I 100% agree. This was here in Alavista or was it more in Goleta? On the Mesa. Oh, got it. That's amazing. And if they had followed my advice, that would have made a lot of money even if they decided to sell it. Definitely. 100%. I would imagine that the housing price on that has gone up significantly since when they first lived there. That reminds me of an off-the-script question, and I feel like I probably already know your answer to this but do you think for grad students, this is mostly for grad students and younger professionals, do you think it's more worthwhile to commit yourself to being really, really, really good at one very specific field of study or is it better to cap the wide net and dip your toes in a lot of different sectors? The wide net, I would answer that is that I think the best is to know how to attack a problem so that you can then apply it to multiple areas. And so if you focus and you become the world expert in one area, make sure that you understand how to solve problems because in all likelihood, you're going to be working in a totally different area. So if you learn the basics of how to identify a problem, detect that problem, solve that problem, then being in a narrow field is perfectly fine. However, if you want to kind of broaden and understand how different areas again, identify a problem, attack a problem, solve a problem, then it's also good to dip your toe into many things that you say. But again, breaking both of those areas down to what is fundamentally important, and that's identifying and solving problems, I think is the best. That's excellent. I love that. This seems like as good a place as any to end off Part 1 of this PH14 episode. Dr. Hawker, I really, really appreciate you being here. Obviously, you'll be here for Part 2 again. Is there anything you want to say just before signing off for this initial part? No, just thank you, Ben. Inspiring and getting students to realize how much fun, but also how rewarding research is. It's fantastic. Thanks for the opportunity. Of course. We thank you all for listening to Part 1. Tune in for Part 2 with Dr. Craig Hawker and Dr. Javier Reid. And we'll see you then. Thank you, guys. And I'm not going to stop recording. I'm just going to keep on going. I'm sorry. Really nice to meet you. I'm sorry I didn't get a chance to touch you. I'm doing really well. How's your day so far? Great. Awesome. Sorry, I know we're all kind of crammed in the corner here. We are working on upgrading our setup for now. Obviously, this is pretty bare bones as it stands. This is literally we rented this from the media center. This is actually the best thing they have. But we're looking for hopefully individual mics at some point. But obviously, stipends and grants and things of that nature are hard to come by. We're hopeful that that'll come at a later date. And then what's nice about that is you can have different channels. So, you know, if you have somebody like Dr. DeVries who has a tendency to talk a little quieter versus my co-host Nathan who can't be here who has a tendency to be very loud, you can modulate that separately instead of just kind of trying to find these little middle grounds on a singular channel. But that's unrelated to what we're talking about. Heavy is loud. Unloud is loud. So we're all good. We're perfect. Yeah, these sound waves are good. So we'll be perfect. Let me get a little more organized here. If you guys want to read through these, this is the joint questions that I have for both of you guys. Mostly related to obviously CNSI and Biopacific. Yeah. And then I also have... This and this are identical but this is just some stuff that I had specifically for you if you wanted to check that out. So I don't know how much of this I'll get into here but I might dabble and kind of mix around with that. And the audience is who? The audience...actually a great question. This is something I talked with him a little bit earlier about. The audience basically is UCSB students or just students in general who want to get a more personal look at their professors. And the people who are I guess at the end of where they are at the beginning. If that makes any sense. Well, I may be at the end but VDL&ED is very much at the beginning. In the middle. In the middle. Further along as they are. When I first met Javier, they decided the beard is doing a lot of the heavy lifting. We were combing through Twitter accounts and Instagram photos and stuff just looking for things for the questions and I saw some photos of your daughter. You were playing Frozen 2 Monopoly and you lost. This was years ago but that was something I thought was very clever. I also almost made a very silly mistake and I'll tell you now was that I was reading fast and we were script writing late into the night and I saw on your thing, all I saw was Las Vegas and my icebreaker was going to be about growing up in Las Vegas and I read the second half and then Matthew was like, it says New Mexico and not Nevada. I was like uh oh. That would have been a very tricky way to start a podcast. It would have been a great way to make me look like I don't do my research. I've been on the highway in New Mexico going to Los Alamos and there's road signs for Las Vegas and until I met Javier I was like you know my understanding of American geography is pretty good but I didn't think Las Vegas was close. Thankfully I didn't take the exit to Las Vegas. They show up and they're looking for the strip. You have to pull over and be like where's the strip? You're like, oh yeah the strip's just right down the road. They have no idea. This is just a tangential thing but getting back to internships undergraduate research I've had as Javier has had lots of students over the years who come from overseas to do undergraduate research here at UCSB and the two way exchange of students is just unbelievably fantastic. We had a really nice cadre of international students over the summer here at UCSB but the story I'm going to tell you is during my time at IBM I was hosting a number of undergraduate students from Germany. Great. German government bought them tickets, everything was arranged I was on my way to the airport to pick them up and I got this frantic phone call and they were not just about to arrive in San Jose. They were still in Washington DC because the German government had bought them tickets to San Jose Costa Rica. Oh my gosh. They'd flown from Frankfurt to Washington DC and then got on their flight to San Jose and the flight had already started to taxi out and as we have all heard many times welcome to United Airlines flight 672 non-stop service from Washington DC to San Jose Costa Rica. They actually had to get the plane to go back and let them off because they didn't have the right visa they they're not Americans going to Costa Rica without the proper documents would be bad enough they're Germans coming to America coming to Costa Rica. Apparently it took them quite a bit to convince the German government that they had got them tickets. They eventually CA vs CR Yeah, wow. They eventually made it to San Jose All I saw was Las Vegas and then the first two letters and the W looks like the V and I'm like there you go it's not bad there's no other reason to question it. I was in San Jose this summer actually so I can honestly say that as bad as that would have been it wouldn't have been that bad. San Jose is pretty nice. And San Jose, California is there are better places but that's just my Bay Area bias. Alright, welcome back to PH14 a very basic podcast brought to you by UCSB Chemistry Club. I'm your host Ben Cray for those listening who just listened to part one, welcome back to part two. We're here again with Dr. Craig Hawker and a new guest, Dr. Javier Ridellanes very nice to have you. How are you doing today? Doing wonderful, thanks for having me. Fantastic. We wanted to do this part two because you guys have a lot of overlap with your work that you do specifically with Biopacific and the CNSI which we'll get into. I just quickly though kind of going off of our cold open there I wanted to start off with a little bit of an icebreaker which would be what is so far in your various years being here, your favorite things about living in Santa Barbara? Who wants to go first? I think for me by far I grew up in New Mexico with desert and mountains and so living next to the ocean, having the ability to walk out to Campus Point, go surfing is absolutely probably my favorite part. You can't beat it. And my favorite again going back to childhood, I grew up in Australia which is a long way from everywhere. So Santa Barbara is kind of close to the center of the universe for a whole host of different industries. You get a sense that you can really change things by living in Santa Barbara. I mean there's obviously some pretty nice beaches in Australia though. Yes, yes, but you know, lots of things that will bite you, sting you, etc. Australian beaches. Oh my god, I can imagine all those scary animals they got, giant spiders and snakes and everything you could possibly imagine to kill you. We talked in part one a lot about your research. Quickly though, just another kind of rehashing, what again would be the elevator pitch for your research? Well the elevator pitch for my research is I make stuff. We develop synthetic procedures to make functional materials, functional elements that are always directed towards an application. It may not be an immediate application, but we always have an application in mind. And then as well for you, Dr. Reid, what would be the elevator pitch, like just the general intro that you would give to undergrads for your research? Yeah, so I think one of the things, if you look at both of Craig's career, my career, is that we come from a similar kind of thought process of like, we also are in the business of how do you make things, how do you make chemistry accessible to non-experts? And so in our development of trying to make new things, we're always trying to keep in mind simplicity, practicality, efficiency, so that we can really expose the chemistry that we're doing and really mark for making to the broader audience. Which is a brilliant lead in to the NSF Center that we're going to discuss today, the Biopacific Materials Innovation Platform because the central mission of Biopacific MIPS is to make chemistry and functional materials accessible to a wider audience of non-experts. So that's really like part of the NSF mission, right? So part of our mandate is this idea of really kind of thinking about changing the paradigm of knowledge sharing, right? And one of those elements is how do you allow non-experts access to these state-of-the-art building blocks so that they can push their own research in different directions. I love when you guys do my job for me. It's amazing. Let's talk about Biopacific. You gave an intro into more of like the general philosophy behind it, but the boots-on-the-ground version, what would you say is the... What would you say goes on with Biopacific? Yeah, I mean, so as the director of Biopacific, we've been started and launched in 2020 and I would say that really one of the ways to kind of think about it is labs of the future. So how do we transition thinking about running things that have been done on the bench top for hundreds of years and how do we start to really modernize the way you do that? And one of the ways is to really think about automation, high throughput, robotics, but then also really bringing in new types of chemistries. In this case, we're using synthetic biology. And so one of the core things is really merging synthetic biology and materials to make next-generation high-performance materials. And the phrase that Javier uses a lot, which I think is, again, brilliant, accelerated discovery. This allows not only industrial researchers, but also undergraduates, graduate students, academic researchers to accelerate the discovery process. I like that. I love that. What are some of the opportunities that the Biopacific MIP is giving to younger students, undergraduates and undergraduate students here on campus? Yeah, so I'll start with the undergrads, and I think this really stems from a lot of the vision that Craig had and some of the things that come out of CMSI. So there's a little tie-in back to CMSI is really a program that we have which is called Wizards. So this is an undergrad program where the undergraduate students can get involved in this accelerated discovery by really gaining access to the facility and being a real core member of helping us to develop new chemistry, train other undergraduates or graduate students and really just be in the fabric of the center so they can see what does state-of-the-art research look like, get exposed to that at an early stage and then hopefully leverage that to then identify other industrial opportunities, internships or even research opportunities here at UCSB. And the two things that I would add to that is that thanks to the generosity of the Stafford Foundation there will be undergraduate research opportunities now for chemistry students to participate in biopacific MIP research which is very recent and I think that's a great thing. The other thing that I would like to focus on is opportunity. So the NSF Biopacific MIP gives students, especially undergraduate students, the ability to get involved in a much larger team-based organization. There's a lot of collaborative research with UCLA and so it is just a great vehicle for students to get exposed to the things that Javier and I are really passionate about and that's education, opportunities, diversity. So as director of Biopacific, I'm curious are you more so directly involved with the research going on or is it more this kind of like oversight that you're primarily focused on? Yeah, I think here at UCSB I think one of the things that I've learned watching organizations like the MRSEC, which I think has played a real foundational role on campus as far as research is both. So it's all boots on the ground. So it is a real team effort and a real grassroot effort of not only myself but also senior participants like Craig and others are involved in the research, they're involved in the operations. The beauty of it is that everyone really wants to see the success because they recognize how this can really lift the research organization here at UCSB and I think so everyone is involved in both aspects. In-house research part, building the user base as well as kind of establishing the organization of Biopacific MIP. And I'm always thrilled when I see the resources and the infrastructure that Javier has been able to create through the NSF Biopacific MIP program. The access by students from other universities, other primary undergraduate institutions etc. It's really started to impact the whole country and the summer schools that Javier and the really fantastic Biopacific MIP staff have run over the last couple of years just exemplifies those. So it's something we get, so we bring students from all over the country, all regions of the country to come to UCSB for one week. They get hands-on training on all the infrastructure that's within Biopacific MIP. They get to interact with project scientists. So this is really a way that we get again to leverage access to these unique facilities where students might not have access to that at their own home institutions. But now they can come here, check out the facility and then also gain access to that facility after they leave and go back to their home institution. As people who are going further and further along into working with more administrative stuff and you said that you're still very much so involved with the boots on the ground type of stuff, but certainly there's push and pull. You have to send a lot more meetings I imagine and do a lot more of business esque things and this is something that I've talked with other people in the past about. It's what I've always been kind of curious about. Do you still day-to-day, this is for both of you, do you still day-to-day feel like you are a chemist? Do you still feel like you're a scientist and not just like a director, a business owner, a mandator, a people pusher? Do you still feel like you're a scientist? I think my favorite part of the day is when you get to interact with young scientists, whether it's a PhD student or an undergrad and they get to share with you the chemistry that they're doing on that day and that is still right. So the answer is simply yes, especially in those moments when I get to actually see the success of a project, see the real light get turned on because wow, that's going to turn into this and that still is probably the best part of my day. That's why I still work hard to kind of keep the research component involved because that's how I got into it. That's what I love and that's part of my day. And I think it's absolutely critical that senior administrators like Javier keep that connection because if you sever that connection you don't understand what the current problems, the current challenges are. So even though Javier spends 20 hours a week 30 hours a week on the administrative details of Biopacific it's absolutely critical that he has his research group, he talks to his students on a daily basis. That's the only way that I think that you can be the most successful at both administration as well as research. I think that's really inspiring to hear because from my perspective it can be easy to fall into the trappings of just believing that your superiors, your professors, your PIs, your boss or whoever it may be can't help but to lose their passion. They can't help but to just fall into the routine and that's something I've always kind of had this fear of is like is my time enjoying this limited? Am I just going to eventually run out of my battery for this and then by the time that I'm you know, I don't know, 30, 40 pushing, whatever that may be if it's just going to be gone and then I'm just doing it because I'm already there and it's honestly inspiring and I'm sure it'll be inspiring for everyone else listening to hear that that's not true. It might be true for some people but it's certainly not true for you guys. It doesn't have to be true at all. You can find new things you're passionate about. You can continue to love what you do every single day even if it's needed for everything. I think that's the key. The reason we got into this is because of that passion and that thinking. I think that one thing I see even when I we were kind of joking before we got on about where we are in our career I remember early on when I first started GSB going to an event for our senior colleagues who had been here for 40 plus years and in my mind thinking exactly what you just described like, wow, how am I going to be motivated and excited for that long? And that has not been a problem. One of the best parts is actually getting to see that excitement and that's what keeps us that's what makes it fun and that's a really enjoyable part. But you do get better at time management multitasking etc. I think the evolution is interesting you do evolve but it's important to keep grounded so you understand exactly what the problems are. I actually wrote down here, I wanted to talk about time management because you guys are such busy people with fingers in a lot of pies so how do you keep things organized? Do you keep things organized? Is that maybe the more general question to ask? Is that a yes or no I guess? What are just like the general tips and tricks for people who are busy, only to be getting busier, how do you stay on top of everything? Efficiency is one of the most important things. Understanding what the goal is and how to quickly get to that goal. Also realizing that for many things perfection is not obtainable and can actually be a barrier. So understanding what the problem is, working out the solution and then executing. If the execution that I think is lost on many people they realize what the problem is, they may realize what the solution is but they're not really good at executing. I've seen Javier multiple times really execute if we have a review by the National Science Foundation. Okay, this is what we need to do, this is how we're going to do it and this is what the final product is going to be. That execution is absolutely critical. I'd only add to that is helping your team members with that execution. Oftentimes what happens is just like Craig was mentioning is you sometimes need to step in to help people to then realize that let's make a decision because we need to move forward. Doing that as quickly as possible oftentimes really helps. Ben, we talked before about my love for sports and I think Javier encapsulated one of the secrets and that is coaching and trusting your players, trusting your players, teaching them how to execute teaching them how to bring their skill set. We would talk about that easily with respect to football, baseball, basketball, but the same thing can also be applied to science and chemistry. We have our players, our team members, our colleagues, our collaborators, how to get them best positioned, how to help them execute, how to get them to see the potential. It's not that dissimilar to some of the really successful professional and college sport coaches. I think that's an interesting comparison because in this sense you are both coach and player. Unlike sports teams where maybe you were once a player so you have past experience that you're now bringing to the now, it's you are the then and the now at the same time and the future as well. Right, and I would just add a caveat to that because we once were a player. Heather and I do not get into the lab as much as we used to. That is one of those subtle differences. We're coaching people, we're not actually going into the lab on a minute to minute basis. It does require a level of removal. A level of removal but also a level of trust that I've taught you, I'm here to answer questions, I trust you to execute, to analyze the situation. I'm going to look over your work, I'm going to back you up, etc. Did you ever find that difficult at first to learn to trust people? Oh absolutely. I remember when I was a young research staff member at IBM. I would look over my students work on a daily basis a couple of times a day. I would write down do A, B, C, come and see me when you do that and then we'll look at D, E and F. That was good at that time but I needed to evolve. It was an evolution and a learning process. And then evolving too to learn how to troubleshoot problems like you were mentioning that you aren't the person that's actually doing it. That takes a little bit of practice of learning how to solve a chemistry problem or something where you need to look at a small set of data but it's not your hands that ran that reaction or did that and that's a whole different way of engaging with the material in a way is how do you help somebody realize maybe we did this and how to probe those questions and really facilitate that. How to read it in someone else's handwriting. Yeah. And one of the things that we're discussing in this segment is the bi-specific MIPS center. And that's one of the underlying principles behind these large multi-PI centers. And this is something that UCSB is really really good at. And that is when you have these centers, it's like a big team. And so you establish the infrastructure but then you bring people together and then you allow the students to see what Javier's group is doing, what my group is doing, what Rachel Siegelman's group is doing, people from physics, chemistry, biology. And this allows the students to get a bigger idea of where they fit in, what they can do, but also the resources that are available to them. And so we spend a lot of time with bi-specific MIPS seminars, with working groups, and so that's where the students get to meet each other, get to understand what they're doing, and the facilities that are available. And so it really allows them to do much more than if it was a single investigator group. And I actually think that's one of the secret sources for the success of UC Santa Barbara, is that we're really good at these multi-PI centers. It's not so cagey. There's a lot of open collaboration. I mean, obviously in science and in academia specifically, it's worthwhile to have a certain level of privacy, secrecy about what you're doing. Some of the people we've talked with in the past have expressed concern regarding being on the podcast in terms of going into the details of their current work, their ongoing work, in fear of something maybe happening. But I think with that being said, having that level of openness, that open flow of sort of, even if our separate goals are not perfectly aligned, the ultimate product is a more open, more available, more engaging research institute. Right. And getting back to what we were talking about at the beginning, Ben, I spent 10, 11 years in industry at IBM. That's how industry solves problems. Yeah. Multi-disciplinary teams. And if you remember, I mentioned to you that I think one of our biggest products here at UCSB are our students. Yes. And so we want to train those students for careers. Many of those careers will be in industry. And so if we teach them now how to work in multi-disciplinary teams, they're going to be a much better product. And again, I know that Javier's really proud and I'm extremely proud of all of the students that have come through our groups, have come through Biopacific MIP, our other large NSF expenses, like the MRSEC and the Materials Research Laboratory. They've gone on to do great things and I think it's because they understand how to work in a multi-disciplinary team. And these are connected, right? We were also just talking about how is it, when do we think of ourselves as scientists and how do we keep fresh having these multi-disciplinary and these ideas coming from various different organizations or people and the diversity of that allows us to constantly be engaged in moving in new directions. And that's one way that it makes it constantly exciting. How have you guys found the process of engaging with students specifically through Biopacific been so far? Have you found it easy to find students, difficult to find students? What have been some of the ways that you've worked on outreach? Do you want to work on it more? What's coming down the pipeline? I know there's a lot of questions all at once. I think you kind of see where I'm getting at. But, yeah, if you guys wanted to talk more about that. Yeah, I think one of the things that Craig mentioned that makes UCSB unique is this multi-disciplinary, this understanding of having the opportunity that comes with working on big projects that have physicists and chemists and material scientists all in one area. So it's not been hard at all. A lot of the students come here, as soon as they hear about the opportunities that Biopacific has, whether it's a state-of-the-art lab facility, the collaborative projects, working with UCLA or external users that come to the center. These are the kinds of things that in my opinion, most of the students are really looking for. As far as attracting graduate students and undergrads to the facility, that part has been particularly easy, in my opinion. And so, let me answer that by agreeing with Javier, but also giving a shout out to the staff that are enabled and supported by the Biopacific MIP grant. These are wonderful staff members, PhD-level scientists, and their role here is to support students, to train the students, to help analyze the data. And I'll just give you one example. Dr. Tal Margalit is an executive director of CNSI, but also was a real driving force for the establishment of Biopacific MIP. Tal brings so many advantages and experience to this position. He is an enabler, and the students just benefit from having someone like Tal to talk to, to interact with. And we have many people within the Biopacific MIP organization that I could say the same things about. Can I just add just real fast? We have project scientists who are PhD-level experts in their field that really run the core facilities within Biopacific MIP. And so, kind of to your question about how is it to get students involved in recruiting, it is particularly easy if someone in my group, for example, wants to learn 3D printing. We don't actually have a 3D printer in my group, but they can go to Biopacific MIP, talk with a PhD-level project scientist, and say, like, wow, I can take my project and now move it in this direction with 3D printing because they have access, not just to the tools, but perhaps even more important to the resources with regard to, you know, someone who can advocate and help them learn those new tools or how to move their research in a new direction. And so it really is those staff members that are, you know, so critical to the overall mission of what we do. I want to move on to talk about CNSI, but before we do that, I want to ask one more last question about Biopacific. It seems like, just based on what you guys have told me so far, that one of the maybe not stated goals, but one of the, I guess, side effects of the way Biopacific is run is sort of recontextualizing the relationship between PI and student or grad student and student, or just kind of reworking these relationships of command, so to speak. I'm curious of your guys' thoughts on that. Is that something you expressly intended, or has it just kind of become an effect of this more collaborative approach? It was expressly identified, built upon, and again, executed. So, we really believe in team, and I'm actually here to support the students and allow the students to break down barriers, to learn as much as they can, and so this was central to our mission. It's still central to our mission, and we're actually doing a lot of things to make this even stronger. I'd say the way that we articulate it is we are modernizing the way that you do research. That interaction that you just described, we really think about is like, yes, how do you bring that into the modern area, and I think that's what we're really focused on. I think it's a genius concept. I honestly do. Being on this side of the fence, I think it's very smart, very achievable, clearly. It's actively being achieved, and very necessary. I love science. I love working with science. I love learning about science, and I love that there is still more to be changed about the way science is performed. I think that's really, really, really exciting. I want to move on now to CNSI. First, what is CNSI? It stands for the California Nanosciences Institute. California Nanosystems Institute. I apologize. California Nanosystems Institute. That's a lot of big words. Only one of which I feel like is obvious, which is California. If you guys could talk more about exactly what is going on with that institution. The California Nanosystems Institute is one of the California Institutes for Science and Innovation. It was established by Governor Greg Davis a number of years ago. The mission is that these four institutes, which are spread throughout the UC system, they're designed to enable science that you can't do on an individual level. They're designed to break down barriers between the different campuses. They've been really successful over the last 10 to 20 years. The investment by the state has been returned at least 10x in terms of job creation, funding brought into the state, companies established. That was the original vision for the California Institutes for Science and Innovation. I think that all of the CalISIs have paid that back multiple times. I'm sorry, what campuses specifically are involved with this? All of the UC campuses, CNSI is jointly between UCLA and UCSB. Got it. Similar to Biopacific, a lot of interwoven projects. CNSI was already, that infrastructure was there, organizations, the user facility knowledge, and that. So we strategically aligned Biopacific to help us grow very quickly because we could leverage already the existing capabilities within the CNSI at UCLA and UCSB. You can see how that initial investment by the state has paid off. Again, the infrastructure that Javier was just mentioning allowed UCLA and UC Santa Barbara to compete more effectively for one of the two NSF MIPS that were available in that round. This is a competition that all of the country wants one of these materials innovation platforms. There are four and Biopacific MIPS is one of them. Again, that seeding of that investment by the state allowed us to compete more effectively and bring in 25 plus million dollars into the state, into the educational system, into the innovation system. So it seems like another thing that's going on with CNSI goal-wise is a lot of connection with industry, working with industry and kind of trying to bridge some gaps which is obviously very exciting because it seems to be that the typical pathway for a lot of students is you do undergrad, you do grad, and then it kind of splits so then you're either deeper in academia, you're post-doc, professor, PI, you go off in that direction, or this is the conventional understanding, or it's industry after that, pretty much after grad school or maybe after undergrad. That seems to be one of the things that CNSI is trying to alleviate is that that is not true and it does not have to be the case. Would you agree with that? Do you think that that's like a wise goal to go for? Again, I'm sorry for breaking in on you, but this is something I'm really passionate about and that is that CNSI has established an incubator here on campus. Again, run by unbelievably good staff. Dr. Tal Margolis, who I mentioned before, is one of the executive directors of CNSI. Cheryl Mills, Englander, is the other executive director for CNSI. They have both put a huge amount of effort into establishing the incubator and now we have multiple, multiple student-led companies. Appeal is one of them that has gone through the CNSI incubator and they have really, I think, just enabled students to see that that is another career pathway. I can establish a company, grow the company, and then run the company as it graduates from the incubator. So we're kind of talking about modernizing, right? And you mentioned, you're right, mostly historically it would have been like academia or industry, and then industry would have been a well-established industry. But I think the piece that's missing in something that CNSI enables is actually startups. So startups is another way, another avenue of potential success, and by having these incubators, you can teach people how do you initially get going, how do you start to protect your IP, those kinds of things that I think traditionally might not be normally involved in the graduate student education. Those are the kinds of things that are facilitated by these incubators. What do you guys see as some of the big frontiers, industry-wise, startup-wise, for young chemistry students to maybe keep their eyes and ears open for? So I think that there's a lot of opportunity in robotics, there's a lot of opportunity in sustainable materials, and there's a lot of opportunities in the energy, climate, and especially water. I can list ten different areas that I think a chemistry student can have a huge impact in an area that is important both industrially, economically, but also from a society viewpoint. Do you have anything to add? I think you touched on all of those kinds of things. Realizing how many different areas chemistry touches. You might think like robotics and how does chemistry touch that, but now you've got to think about soft robotics that are interacting with humans, and now you have to start thinking about what is the chemistry involved with those materials that are facing with biology, and also that becomes a chemistry problem. So that's just one example of why I think chemistry really is central to so many of these innovative areas that we're going to need to touch on as we move forward. And if I can just break in with a plug for some research, if we think about robotics or if we think about sensors, you need a stimuli responsive material. And Javier, when he was an assistant professor, developed what I think is one of the most exciting class of new stimuli responsive materials, and these are donor acceptor Stenhouse adducts, or DASAs. And again, many, many research groups in the world, even Nobel Prize winning research groups, are now building on Javier's work that he did when he was an assistant professor, with some of these original students in developing these DASA stimuli responsive materials. I've heard about DASA in the context of photo switches. That's sort of my understanding of it. If you could illuminate a little more on that. Yes, I mean, I think what Craig is describing is a photo switching molecule is a molecule that can change its properties when exposed, in this case, to light, but it can also change its properties when exposed to other types of stimuli. So when you start to think about sensors, what we really need to start thinking about is inspiration from nature that is dynamic. And so this idea of having the ability to change its properties on demand on exposure is really how we're going to move materials into that next level where they now are able to sense, potentially then move, and now all of a sudden you start to build things that are more nature-like, which I think is the direction of the future, and that's really, in our mind, how we're starting to think about materials and moving in that direction. Getting back to one of your questions, Ben, seeing a sign, what does it mean? Well, Javier just gave you an excellent example of a nanosystem. So this is a nanosystem that will touch many different areas. CNSI provides a lot of infrastructure here on campus, and one of the other major centres that is housed within CNSI is the quantum foundry, which, again, may not seem connected to the biopacific, but it's all about teamwork, multi-PI science and engineering, and that's obviously directed towards quantum engineering, quantum computing, but again, still a nanosystem. Getting back to a little bit about what CNSI is and what does it do, one of the things that it did, connecting back to biopacific NIP, connecting to the quantum foundry, is years ago had the vision to start to think about how do we position ourselves to go after these large centres, and CNSI played a key role in allowing us to build some of those teams so that when these opportunities came from the national government as far as a call for materials innovation platform, we were ready. We already knew about our team, we already knew directions that we wanted to go, that gives us a competitive advantage, but that was seeded with small grants that came from CNSI that allows you to do things that you wouldn't be able to do in a traditional type of study. So I think that's one of, from my standpoint as a personal benefit, that's really one of the key things that has been an enabling factor within CNSI here at UCSB. And we continue to expand this, we continue to grow it, and one of the things that we are just about to hold another competition for are the CNSI challenge grants, which are a great opportunity for especially young assistant professors to get that seed funding to grow into bigger and better things. We realise that we don't have some of the advantages of the Stanford's, the MIT's, the Princeton's of this world, that have endowments in the tens of billions of dollars. So we've got to be smart, we've got to understand and again, CNSI really tried to bridge that gap and give UC Santa Barbara a competitive advantage. And it works. There you go. That's right, so I mean, you know, that strategic decision resulted again in like this execution of infrastructure that will now play a big role in undergraduate education, graduation, recruiting new faculty at UCSB. So all those things really are super critical. You mentioned assistant professors, this leads into a question that we had and it's long so I'm just going to read it word for word. Most of the other professors we've interviewed, aside from Professor DeVries who was our most recent episode, have been younger, greener, quote unquote professors, assistant professors. What can you say about having an established lab and running a lab through multiple years, multiple cycles of different undergraduate and graduate students, and what the day-to-day of an established, no longer associate assistant professor is like? Well, it's not that dissimilar to what a lab is like for an assistant or an associate professor. It's all about creating teams, looking at mentorship, allowing students to realize that if they help each other, they're all going to succeed. One of our colleagues, who is also a professor in the chemistry department, has a great saying, a rising tide lifts all boats. And I think that applies to an assistant professor's group, an associate professor's group, or a more established professor's group. I think that's a genius quote. Can you repeat it again one more time? A rising tide lifts all boats, for those of you listening. Take notes. Because that may be from an associate professor, but it's not only applied to associate professors. I think it applies to everybody, and just to, you know, everyday life. Chemistry, not chemistry, any team effort, which is really everything. Everything is ultimately a team effort. I want to leave off with one last question about Biopacific and CNSI, which would be, what is the immediate future that you see? What are the immediate next steps that you're hoping to pursue? For Biopacific, immediate next steps is really looking towards the future. This is a renewable grant for an additional five years, and so that's actually coming up in 2024. And so we are actually, tomorrow, Craig and I are driving up to UCLA to have a planning meeting, just to give everyone a sense of how strategic we are with thinking about the future. And for us, the future is looking more towards labs of the future. How do we build in more automation? How do we think about machine learning? How do we start to think about this as a system, so that we can build that infrastructure and ecosystem that we can then accelerate reaction discovery? And for design, it really is about building on the foundation that we've already laid. So expanding our incubator, establishing more start-up companies, allowing young assistant professors who are just entering to realise that wow, I can use my research, and I can establish a start-up company, and this is only going to benefit me in the future. We're also, through our challenge grants, we're looking for the next quantum foundry, the next biopacific. And so, we have a mission, and that is to allow UC Santa Barbara to compete against the Stanford's of this world, and we are committed to it. Ladies and gentlemen, the power is in your hands and nobody else's. I think that is ultimately what it is the final thing to be said. Dr. Hawker, Dr. Reed, I want to thank you both so very, very much for coming on the show. I want to thank everybody for listening. I hope you all have great days going forward. Best of luck with everything. And yeah, is there any closing remarks you guys want to make? Thank you, Ben. Awesome. Thank you guys for listening. Have a good rest of your day. PH14, a very basic podcast. Thank you.