Stop The Hate

The transcription is about a project called Stop the Hate, focusing on anti-Asian racism in the US. It covers Asian American voices, identity, representation, and solidarity. The project aims to educate, reflect, and inspire action against bias and injustice. It includes an interview with an Asian American professional discussing cultural background, career choices, and diversity in the legal field. The interviewee shares insights on cultural influences in work and the importance of meaningful representation in leadership and public spaces. The discussion highlights the need for equal opportunities and genuine decision-making power for diverse voices. And I wanted to give you, like, just kind of an introductory of the project, too, so you have some of that background. I feel like when I asked you about it initially, I was just nervous to ask you, too, because I... Why? If I can do it, I'll let you know. Right, right. I appreciate that. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that. Okay. As a part of my ethnic studies course, I'm working on a podcast project titled Stop the Hate, which focuses on the history, impact, and ongoing response to anti-Asian racism in the United States. The goal of the project is to uplift Asian American voices and share diverse perspectives, whether personal, professional, or community-based, that help us better understand identity, representation, and solidarity in today's world. Your insight as an Asian American professional offers valuable perspective on what it means to navigate these topics, even in the absence of direct experiences with hate. This interview will be included in a short podcast episode meant to educate, reflect, and inspire action against bias and injustice. So to get started, can you share a little bit about your cultural background and how it shaped your identity growing up? Sure. So I actually, I grew up in China. I didn't come to the U.S. until after college. Oh, wow. So you really grew up in China. Okay, got it. So it might be a little bit different than, you know, like Asian Americans actually. You were born here. You grew up here in the United States. Right. But I feel like that might be more interesting. Yes. Because, you know, I haven't experienced any, like, ethnical issues or, you know, those kinds of things. Yeah, like any racism or discrimination. During the first 20 years of my life. Right. So I compare it to who actually grew up here. So it might be a little bit more sensitive to that kind of thing. Right. It's all new to me. Got it. Yes. So that was my cultural background. Well, how it shaped my identity when I grew up. It probably didn't shape my identity when I grew up as a kid. Right. But since I came over here for graduate school, I think that's like a new topic I actually learned. Got it. Since I moved here. It's interesting to see how different people from different cultural backgrounds, they all work better, live better in the society. Right. And of course, put some issues and conflicts around those ethical, ethnical groups. Right. So I think it's just making me striving to learn and being aware of, oh, these kind of issues are actually. Yeah, they exist. They exist. Yeah. And constantly think about it. And later on, you know, after I become an attorney, like, oh, is there anything I can work on? Is there anything I can promote or to help whoever actually has that bad experience? Right. Right. Yeah. Awesome. Awesome. Thank you for sharing that. And so what inspired you to pursue a legal career and has your cultural identity influenced your approach to your work? It's actually interesting. I have a very different academic background compared to a lot of people who actually practice law. Okay. I had a Bible background. Really? Yeah. Cool. So I went into graduate school for genetics. Oh, so science has turned to journey. That's so cool. You and I didn't know that. Awesome. A lot of people who become lawyers, their major would be like political science or English majors. Even history. Yeah. For me, I feel like I didn't want to bury myself in a lab without talking to people. Got it. For weeks. Right. Right. Doing your experiments. You know, I know being a scientist is really cool. Right. But I just feel like it's not really for me. Got it. That's not exactly what I wanted to do for the rest of my life. Yeah. I kind of realized that pretty late. You know, because I was already in graduate school. But I feel like here, people are pretty open with reaching their career goals and their direction. And you have the opportunity to take the test and go to law school. Right. And, you know, you can feel free to do it. No one's going to judge you. Oh, you don't have a very related background. Right. Do you think that it was different in China? Like, when you're set on a career, you're kind of expected to follow that through. And if you do kind of switch from that, then people are kind of looking at you like, what are you doing? A little bit. A little bit. It's more like you're more locked in. From the beginning. From the beginning. Got it. Okay. You don't really have a platform or access to other majors. Right. Once you decide on. Oh, okay. That's interesting. Yeah. So I was like, well, why not take this opportunity? Yeah. Yeah. And even if I don't want to be a scientist, I could still use my bio background. I could do IT. I could, you know. Absolutely. Or do legal work for a bio company. Exactly. Exactly. Which actually, in the event that you want to just switch and like work for a bio company, that would be such a very specific niche, you know, that would make you so valuable to any one of those companies. Yeah. That's not what I was thinking, you know. Exactly. No, that's great. That's great. You know, that's how I switch to a legal field. And in terms of how my culture identity influenced my approach in my work, honestly, it's only when I'm facing clients who have similar culture backgrounds. Got it. Like me. I would actively think about this issue because I kind of, because we have similar, you know, backgrounds and cultures. So I could understand a lot of the times what their concerns are. Those might be different than people who grew up here. Right. They might not see it the same way. Right. Right. Or the way they convey a message to you. Got it. Yeah. And I'm able to tell, oh, there's something in their mind. Right. I can read them better. Got it. You're more in tune with the tone, I can imagine. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. I can tell the difference better. I think that's when I'm truly actively thinking about the culture. And how it relates to your work. Yeah. Which I think is awesome, too, because I think that it's important for clients to feel like that level of representation with the people that they work with. And I think that it's not always incredibly often. I think now there's a lot of diversity in the legal field. But for a long time, it was predominantly male and predominantly white. You know? So for these different cultures to have that access to a great attorney who is going to understand their experiences just a little bit better because of the cultural background, I think it's really great for those clients. Agreed. Yeah. Awesome. Even though you haven't faced overt racism, have you noticed ways in which the legal field does or doesn't reflect diversity, especially when it comes to Asian American representation? Well, yes. We were provided statistics about the percentage of shareholders or partners in mid-sized law firms or in big laws, what the percentage of them are Asian attorneys or Asian American attorneys. It's very low, the percentage. Very small. Yeah. But I don't necessarily, I don't think the amount of them is necessarily, we can't attribute it to discrimination against Asian attorneys. Right, right. It could be just, you know, a lot of times Asian people, they choose to do some different careers. You know? They want to be doctors. Right. They want to be engineers instead of being attorneys. Absolutely. So I don't think that's exactly because of unequal opportunities for Asians or, you know, in terms of getting their career development. But I, just myself, I'm also, on the other hand, I would still be wondering whether the culture background, how it affects people's opportunities to become shareholders of the firm. Right. How this becomes a factor when the whole firm or other colleagues, when they consider whether they want to welcome you to be a shareholder. Right. Right. Is it something they actually... That they think about. Yeah. Yeah. It's a factor. Well, I haven't figured it out. No. But the good news is I've never felt like there is a negative impact. Good. Good. Good. So I never felt like I'm being discriminated. Good. I never lost any opportunities because of my culture background. So that's good. And that's good. And I think we're fortunate. And I know you have experience at other firms, too. But I do think we have, you know, a good level of diversity here. And you see people from different backgrounds in the shareholder position. So I can totally understand why here, thankfully. And I'm glad you've never had that experience. Because nobody wants to feel like they have a ceiling to keep them reaching, you know, the pinnacle of their career. So I'm glad that's been your experience. I'm glad it's been positive. At least I'm not a wear off. Yeah. Yeah. No. That's good. That's good. What does meaningful representation in law, leadership, and public spaces look like to you? You know, to me, I more than just simply have diverse spaces in my room. You know, if you just, you know, just to look better. So it includes people from different ethnic groups in my room. But without giving them the equal opportunities or giving them the actual power to make decisions. Right. Because that doesn't mean anything. That's right. Yeah. So to me, meaningful representation means you actually give them the actual influence. They have the actual influence and equal opportunities. And also they have the ceiling of their minds there. You know, that's what it means to me. Of course, you want, you know, people in the powerful positions to reflect, you know, the ethics of the community we serve. And if there's no Asian attorney in the room, then of course no one's going to represent you. Nobody's thinking about it. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. But if you have other people to represent the community, then yeah, absolutely not great either. But other than that, I think what's more important is to actually give them the genuine power to make decisions. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. To provide support to those communities. Yeah. That's awesome. I like that. I like that. So the model minority myth often assumes that Asian Americans don't face challenges. What are your thoughts on that narrative, especially in professional or academic places? I haven't done much research on this model minority myth. But I feel like generally it tends to oversimplify the issues, you know. And also, first of all, Asian American is enlarged. Right. Right. It's very expansive. Very expansive. And there are so many different Asians, different types of Asian backgrounds. Right. So you can't say, oh, overall they're not facing discrimination. Or, you know, I guess the study has to be more detailed towards different cultures as well. Right. Right. Just for Asians. Well, I guess it kind of creates the illusion that Asian Americans don't face any discrimination. Probably you see some people, their Asian Americans, they are pretty successful. Right. They have good careers. They make good business. And even their kids, their children are also, they have good expectations for this opportunity to be anything. But that's only, I guess, a percentage of them. Right. You can't overlook the challenges the other Asian people are facing. So I think those kind of studies need to be more, need to be expanded more. Yeah. Also, I guess it could impose unfair expectations. You know, like, oh, Asian students should do better with STEM. Right. They're better at English. They should be good. They should be great at STEM. Right. But what I'm, I'm a Chinese kid who is not good at math. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. It's like there's no, you're not giving that person room to have their own individual experiences or hardships. Right. And regardless of your background or ethnicity, we all face hardship. And it looks different for everybody, but it's a part of everybody's life, I think. Right. Yeah. I agree. Well, I guess I'm pretty lucky that I feel like no matter if it's in graduate school or law school, people can meet as an individual, not just, oh, that's a Chinese kid or Asian kid. Right. Right. So she should be good at what, bad at what. I don't feel like people will make that judgment. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Right. Locking them in a box. Right. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Let's see. So this question I thought was interesting to me when I was drafting it, because I feel like part of it is even like me asking you to do this interview, right, you know. But do you ever feel pressured to represent your entire community when you're one of the few Asian American professionals in the room? Honestly, I've never had that pressure. I don't know if it's a gift you are as a community. Well, even like, for example, like if somebody is having a conversation about the Asian American community or specifically Chinese community, and they kind of will look to you during the conversation. You know, it's maybe not super overt, but, you know, they kind of are looking for your response because you're the one who belongs to that community sometimes. And maybe not so much like here or in all professional spaces, but, yeah, kind of that type of thing. Maybe once in a while when something happens or when situations like that happens. Yes. But generally, I don't, but I can give you some examples when I feel that way. Yeah, that would be great. Like when I attended law school, we have, for my year, we have probably over 200 students. And we are all divided into three sections. Mm-hmm. Random. Okay. The school, it should be random. If you like to go into three sections. Yeah. So at that time, we had three Chinese students for the whole year. Okay. Okay. And then I think the school intentionally assigned one of us to each section. So we don't talk to, you know, just the three of us. Right, right. But we all came out together. Right. They want us to commingle with all the others. Got it. So, you know, when I enter the classroom, you're the only Asian face. Well, only Chinese. Right. Sitting in there. It's a little bit awkward at first. Yeah. Like, oh, my goodness. It's just me. It's just me. And everyone else is, oh, she's the only Chinese. You know, they don't see it. Right. But you can tell. And I think they are also, you know, my classmates, they're also curious about, oh, how am I going to talk in public in class or how my performance will be like. Right. Right. So that gives me a little bit of pressure. Yeah, yeah. I want to do a good job. Right. Not just because I want to do a good job in law school, but also, you know, I kind of want to show them, hey, yes, I'm from China, but I can still speak in public. Right. In a law school classroom. You know, I kind of want to create the stereotype that the Chinese students never speak up. They never want to answer the professor's questions. You know, I kind of want to sometimes force myself to volunteer to answer questions. Right. Right. I get that. But I'm sure it feels like pressure, but it also feels good, I'm sure, to be, like, a positive representation in that area, you know, because I think, to your point, it's not always that people have negative thoughts so much as they're very curious sometimes because it's something that's just out of their scope, you know, or they haven't been around the Asian community very often. They don't have those experiences for no particular reason other than they just don't have those experiences. Totally. So, yeah, I'm sure, you know, a little bit of pressure, but also it feels good to be the positive representation, and you are. You're such a great woman, mom, and attorney. No, and you're very sweet and a very capable, intelligent attorney on top of that. So, you know, you are absolutely a positive representation, not just of other Chinese people, but just of yourself. Thank you. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Let's see. Okay. How do you think Asian American professionals can support broader racial justice or equity movements even if they haven't personally experienced hate? Yeah. Actually, as an attorney in general, we have this responsibility to help people who are actually facing injustice or inequity because as a society, it's built up on constitution, which is the foundational framework. Right. Let me see. Am I on here? Okay. No, we're good. We're good. I'm like, I thought I was saying zero. I know. I was like, I think you just said that, though. We're okay. Yeah. Okay, great, great, great. You know, tax issues are very important. I'll make sure. Sorry about that. Oh, no worries at all. Yeah, so going back to what, you know, I've been thinking about as attorneys or Asian attorneys, which you can do to support broader racial justice, I think what inspired me a lot is during COVID, you know, because it doesn't matter what's being said on the news or, you know, social media, a lot of people had bad feelings about Asians, you know, who allegedly brought the virus to the U.S., you know, caused big issues for the whole society. Yeah, the China flu or whatever. Yeah, yeah, you know, it's just periodical. Yeah. You know, it's a virus. Right, exactly. So there were a lot of Asian state incidents. I've seen, like, attorneys stood up and speak on the media to, you know, to tell, try to tell the society what's going on and what happened to Asian people. And this type of discrimination doesn't help with anything. It doesn't help with killing the virus or, you know, or if you raise conflicts between countries, that won't help anyone. So, and for attorneys who actually have the tools, the training, or the institutional access, right, you can make a big impact compared to other people who's not in the legal field. Right. I feel like when things like this happen, you have the responsibility to stand up. And if you see anyone who actually is being discriminated because of their cultural background, yeah, you should have that feeling, like, I should help them. Yeah. And you should do what attorneys can do to advocate for individuals or for communities. So, yeah, I just feel like as attorneys, you do have the tools. Right. To do it. And I think even if it's providing resources or, you know, facilitating resources, right, if, you know, let's say hypothetically somebody's having a landlord-tenant issue and it's related to some sort of racial discrimination, even if it's not your area of law, you can always be of assistance in, like, connecting them to the right person. You know, like there's, I think there's a lot of different ways to show up in that activism or allyship. It shows up in a lot of different ways. You know, it doesn't always have to be that you're marching and protesting, which is a beautiful thing for people to do when they feel so moved to. But there's other ways, I think, to show up for your community or any community that's dealing with any type of, you know, inequity. So, yeah, love that. Yeah. Yeah. And I just feel like a lot of people who are, if they're new neighbors, you know, they don't really have a good understanding of the society or the legal system. Right. They could be really lost when bad things happen to them. Absolutely. They don't know where they need to go, who they can talk to to help them. So I would like to be more proactive, you know, to provide support to the community. Let them know, hey, you can actually rely on these attorneys to help you. Yeah. That's awesome. That's awesome. What does allyship look like in your work? And have you seen examples of effective cross-cultural or cross-community solidarity? Yeah. Of course, we have, like, nation attorney associations, you know, at state level or city level or national level. But to me, what really affected me or helped me a lot when I first became an attorney was my previous law firm. Or, you know, here, actually, at this firm. They provide great mentorship programs, you know. You would think that they would encourage you to find a shareholder or a partner who has similar cultural background as you, who kind of expects you to experience the same challenges. Right. And then, you know, so people who have the same cultural background can provide their experience or advice to you. You know, probably similar issues will confront. But actually, the firms would encourage you more to look for an attorney who is probably one of the majority. You know, the reason being they understand how the main society works. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. How to navigate among the majority. Right. Exactly. Yeah. Well, to be fair, the legal profession is dominated by white people. Yeah. Yeah. So if you only learn the perspective from a minority in that community, you probably won't have a good opportunity to blog. That's a really good insight. Yeah. That's very true. Yeah. They actually encourage you to look for someone who has a totally different background. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you guys can learn what, I guess, the majority of society would think, how they develop their career. Instead of just focusing on your own ethnical group. Yeah. I think that's better. Yeah. I like that you said that. Because I think even going to work for Greg, for example. You know, were I, for example, to go work for a black attorney, you know, I'm sure it would be just as valuable. However, starting to work for an older white man who also leans much more. He's great. Yeah. No. Yeah. I love Greg. I love Greg. But he leans more conservative as well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 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