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Talk: 19890413-Larry_Rosenberg-UNK-anapanasati_full_awareness_of_breath_series_tape_9-33812 Start_time: 00:22:18 Display_question: Do I push or allow the breath during meditation, and how can I more easily move from awareness of breath to the body? Keyword_search: bellows, push, allow, breath, body, resistance, anxiety, close, attention, sound, image, thought, Maha Bua, Zen, Japan, Thailand, together, separate, meditation, whole, gone, peaceful, individualized, Burma, Sri Lanka, free-flowing, time, breakfast, inbreath, outbreath Question_content: Questioner: I want to speak to that, but I kind of want to back up a little bit and check out a couple of things from what you said. There were sort of three thematic episodes. The first one, when I switched from the breath and the body, was very difficult. So much resistance came up. When I put my attention here, it felt like I was closing down and then all this anxiety came up. It was a real struggle. When I said transition, then that was okay. That went away. The next thing that happened… Larry: Can I stay with this one first? Because one thing at a time. Questioner: <inaudible> Larry: Oh, yeah. No, there's no time limit. It's just that I have limits on how much I can take in. When that happens, then I would examine the resistance. It's… sure, I understand. That way, eventually you'll learn how to move freely from one practice mode to another, not get attached to any of these techniques. And so you switch from this open to now, some people, it's an improvement. They feel much <sound> “Finally, I just have a small area that I, small little garden to cultivate instead of this whole body.” But it doesn't matter. So, let's say there was resistance or anxiety. Then it really warrants some looking, some discernment, and then usually that will smooth it out, take some of the energy out of it, and then you can begin the more one-pointed. Okay, keep going. Questioner: Then what finally happened with that was then it opened up here. It didn't feel closed in anymore. It wasn't scary. But I really, I understand what you're saying and that feels right about that. And the second thing that happened was I didn't have trouble putting my attention right there. But then other things would come. And what kept coming was almost like a bellows here. The breath here just kept fighting to come into the attention. Larry: You mean it became very strong? Questioner: Yeah. And I was able to, most of the time, I was able to keep my attention in the nose. But it was almost like this disembodied other thing, like a bellows. Larry: Okay, remember, we're not trying to keep anything out. Questioner: Okay. That's what I'm really asking. I couldn't decide whether to push or allow. Larry: Allow. See, because even if you're one-pointed, until you become really one-pointed, all kinds of things are going on simultaneously: sounds and images and thoughts and other places where the breath is extremely prominent. That's all right, as long as you haven't lost touch with your point of contact. And what's the third thing? Questioner: Then the third thing is the experience you were describing that moment of gone. Larry: What's gone? Questioner: The breath. Larry: Oh, yeah. Okay, so you had some of that. Questioner: At the end, I found it very peaceful and there was nothing else. And one of the last things you said in your, in the moments just before I spoke, largely has felt frustrating because of the time constraints. And I do fit certain periods of time because my life is very scheduled. And I found myself grabbing other bits of time because it felt like it wants time to extend it. Larry: I understand. Let me give you some, enlarge your perspective on practice. This is just my own opinion. It may be wrong, but the mode of practice that has come into the United States, a lot of it has been influenced by Japanese Zen, which is scheduled sittings. And then it's very efficient, very effective. If you have a lot of people, one hundred twenty five people sitting, and you schedule it: sit, walk, sit, walk. It's one way to do it because it's just practical. You can really work with a lot of people. And there's a strong emphasis on the group, which is very strong in Japanese Zen. If you go to Thailand, in many monasteries, and the one that I know best, which is Maha Bua's Monastery, they just about never do any group sitting. They don't even know what you're talking about. I mean, they know what you're talking about, but the attitude is very, very different. People will come together for instruction, and then everyone has their own thing, their own meditation house. The only time they sit together is when Maha Bua gives a dharma talk. And they will all sit quietly together for about twenty minutes, and then the talk will begin. And for them, it's much more individualized, right from the beginning. Break_line: And so, you take your practice, you're given what is called a kammatthana object, in this case, the breath. Your teacher gives you something to practice with, you take it and you work out. And it's not like their bells going off all the time or “well, time to get…”; it's not like that at all. It's much more free-flowing. You sit and you walk in a much more informal way. It's not limited to Thai Buddhism. A lot of Burmese practices that way, Sri Lanka, et cetera. Now, we've inherited that, but it's another good forum. I'm not at all down on it, it's very useful. But don't get locked into it. And try to understand that there is some value in sitting long. You know it, right? I mean, it takes a while for the mind to settle down. And often it's exactly that point that we, “Well, time for breakfast.” And we're happy that we can get out of it. We're a good boy and a good girl. We make a little check. Break_line: I remember when I was a graduate student, we had these huge reading lists, and somehow it didn't matter how much I retained, as long as I made a check. I finished that book and then finally go through the whole reading list before the exam. It was a good feeling of security. I don't know exactly what else happened, but at least all the books got checked off. And there is a little of that too. And I see it's familiar to you. Break_line: As you practice, you become more self-reliant. It's not like you're doing meditation to please someone else. Sort of like, “Well, I put in my hour. I'm okay, right?” I don't know who it is we're talking to—to something in us that is more dedicated than something else that isn't as dedicated. But at a certain point, it isn't that kind of thing. It's that you want to do it because you want to do it. I mean, it's something you love to do. It's not a question of trying to wriggle out of it or get by with as little as possible. It's quite the opposite. You just want to experience the joy of meditation. And if you have an opportunity to have an extended period of time, you take it just quite naturally. Nothing special about it. Okay. Have we gone through? Okay. End_time: 00:29:10
