The Economics of Music with Kate Brunotts

Rosina hosts the Artists Unanimous Podcast discussing artistic realities in the 21st century. In this episode, she explores the economics of music with producer Kate Brunoff. They discuss the challenges artists face in making a living, the impact of streaming on revenue, and the necessity of day jobs for sustainability. Kate shares her journey in music, the expenses involved, and the importance of balancing art with practicality. They emphasize the need for artists to prioritize self-care and financial stability in a tough industry. Hi, my name is Rosina, and this is Artists Unanimous Podcast. This is a podcast where we dedicate some time to talk about artistic realities in the 21st century. Inspirations, obstacles, and the secrets of sustaining an artistic life in a world that challenges it every day. Today, instead of looking at music as a result of creation, we'll look at it as a lens. Behind every track released, and every show played, there is an economy. Rents to be paid, gear to be bought, collaborations to be compensated, platforms to be fed. The art survives, but so must the artist. This is where I want to start my conversation with New York-based, at the moment, LA-based producer Kate Brunoff. About the economics of music today, the structural barriers that keep art from becoming a profession, and about how to make beings with the day jobs that so often sustain our creative life. Hi, everyone. My name is Kate Brunoff. I'm an artist and producer. I'm based in New York. I'm originally from Virginia, but I'm currently in Los Angeles for the year. I love all things audio. I love all things music. I primarily identify as a producer, but I'm also an artist. I love making video essays about the intersection between art, culture, and what it means to be sustainable, just in day-to-day trenches as an indie person. Tell me a little bit more about your path in music. When did you start making music? I've always sung as a kid, and I've always just loved music like everyone else. It's a very magical, amazing space to be. I think I discovered that production was a thing in high school. I asked for FL Studio for Christmas, and I was fortunate enough to get it. Then I was in these weird Facebook groups. I don't know. Anyway, someone in one of those Facebook groups converted me to Ableton, and I've been in Ableton ever since. What's kept me going? I don't know what else to do. Art is this amazing place where you can get away with anything, and it's a vehicle for connection. It's a form of emotional processing, and I just got to do it. It's not that you're doing it because you're doing it. It's more like you're doing it because you can't really not. Honestly, I don't know what I would do with myself. I think everybody has their thing or way that they express themselves or make meaning in their life. For me, that just happens to be through sound. It is one thing to write and be creative, and it's another thing of releasing and putting some expectations on your releases. Can you tell me more about your story of relationship with that, with those particular expectations, and how do you navigate them now? I can still recognize it in myself sometimes, too. There's still a huge gully between people's expectations of what it looks like to be a musician in today's day and age versus what it actually is. I think a big part of that is the model that we have in our head is tied to a prior generation where there was more funding and backing and more of a sustainable way for people outside of the top 1% of performers to have a meaningful income within the space. That just simply isn't the case anymore. I think because of that, you have this expectation, okay, let's say everything goes right. I put together a release, make all these beautiful visuals. I am really good on making the TikToks, getting on social, doing all the right things. Let's say, best case scenario, you go viral. That blowing up, which I would argue is just the fantasy of every musician, that in itself does not equate to you having a sustainable future, at least financially, as an artist. I think you have to really level with yourself because artists in general are kind of used to going against the grain and doing things despite the man telling us we shouldn't. At some point, if you want to be sustainable, you have to find a way to detach your success from making it all and everything that you are, at the very least in a financial sense. I think that's a big part of it. When I first started, it's like, oh, the dream is I just do art all the time. But then as you become an adult, you're like, okay, how do we actually make this happen? I think it's redefining what that looks like for me without sacrificing all the passion and meaning that I get from it. That's just the tension of being an artist forever, but I think it's much more amplified in our age where tech has extrapolated so much of that monetary value from the space. What do you think was making it possible for the musician of, say, older generation to make a living from music, which is not possible now? What was the difference? I think it's just the devaluation of buying media. Myself included, I listen to music on streaming. It's an awesome service as a consumer, but it's really hard to get people to buy media if the baseline is set and the expectation is set that you don't have to pay. There is something beautiful about that access, but I believe there are other ways in which people can gain that access without all of that just destroying the craft. I think also the economics around touring and shows, which I think used to be a much bigger pie, have completely changed. I think a lot of people, arguments I see online all the time are like, oh, okay, you're not going to make a living from streaming, just go on tour. There's this whole term called volunteering, because unless you are selling out a 5,000-cap room, you might not even be breaking even. You might be going in the negative, and that's just the reality. It's very hard to contend with because it's like, where is the money getting lost in the noise? But yeah, I think those are two really big factors. How do expenses like rent, gear, bank operations, distributor fees, simply buying yourself time to do music, how does it all shape the economics of your career? It's challenging. I would say when I first started freelancing, I did what I thought I would want to do. I did production for Hire On My Own, and then I also worked at a small studio in Queens for a while as a producer there. I was like, this is it, this is going to be the thing. I found through that that I actually prefer to have a level of separation because I ended up using so much of my creative brain on other people's stuff that when I got home, the last thing I wanted to do was music. To answer your question, everything is expensive, everything comes out of pocket. I can more or less offset all distribution fees from the royalties I make, but beyond that, that's it. I'm under no illusion that what I'm getting back from music money-wise, I'm just doing it for me. I know that I'm doing it because I want to make art, and I want to express myself, and that's very important for me to feel connected. That's the value that I'm getting from it. It's the process, it's putting something out into the world that I ideated previously, but it's a lot easier for me to be sustainable when I detach the job aspect of it. I tried the other way, and I didn't like it, and I found I'm a bit more productive as an artist when I have the day job. Yeah. Why do you think many musicians feel sort of ashamed of day jobs? Why does it happen? Yeah, I think because a lot of the industry, or some of it, has been built around creating this almost mythical being persona, right? Nothing can touch me, I just make things happen, la la la. Some people call it mystique, you can call it whatever you want to, but I think people are afraid to admit that they're human when they're trying to build a world that reaches beyond that. Unfortunately, that can create a lot of dangerous, false expectations. I hear you. I mean, after this, I'll be doing my job, and it's not the most stimulating thing in my life, but I always think of the Maslow's hierarchy of needs. We need safety and security before we can even think to extend beyond ourselves and try and connect through a medium like art. I've just found, I know other people do it differently, but I make my best work when I feel safe and secure. And so I can recognize my job as a utility and an essential part that's part of that. I think it's just, if you want to be a sustainable artist, you have to think critically about what that looks like. And for me, the number one priority is staying excited about music, because the music industry is a horrible place. It's easy to feel super discouraged or feel taken advantage of. So what can I do to protect myself in being sustainable and taking care of myself? Because there are plenty of people within this industry that are happy to take advantage of your idealism. And having a job, having that detachment, it allows me to be bolder, because it's like, okay, well, I'm funding myself, so I don't, yeah. Hard to disappoint you. Right, yeah, I'm not beholden to anyone else, and that is a big deal. The economy is dying and children are dying. Sickness consumes all of my plants. What kind of day jobs have you done yourself that you're doing now? Yeah, yeah, I've done so many day jobs. Oh, please tell me. I can give you the whole basic gamut. So when I first moved to New York, I didn't really know what I was going to do. I thought I was going to do dog walking, and I did do some dog walking, but I also worked at a juice bar. I worked at a vet clinic. After that, I worked at Guitar Center for a while, and then I transitioned into freelance work. I was primarily a content writer for a while, until I started to see the tides turn with AI, which also plays into our world now. I did freelance production. I made meditation beats for a while, which was fun and interesting, so more sound design-y stuff. It used to be more just audio podcast editing, but I do primarily video podcast editing, that sort of thing. And some of that has just tipped more into video production stuff. When I'm on the East Coast, sometimes I'm on set. My fiance is also in film, so there's a world there that sometimes I can tap into. But yeah, all things that I... That's a whole bunch. Yeah, yeah, there's a lot. Anyone who's a freelancer knows you have to just be open and at least mildly interested in doing a bunch of different things, because you never know which way the tide is going to turn. All my writing jobs, I don't know if they would still be here because of AI, so you just got to adapt, adapt, whatever it is. How do you make, say, cognitive space for creation after you've been so creative, as far as I hear, in your day jobs? Do you need to rest? Do you have any rituals or tips for people who sort of exist in similar situations? Oh, definitely, yeah. I mean, I'm really lucky in that I feel like my job now, which is more or less doing video and audio stuff, is adjacent, but it doesn't use the same muscles that I would use, say, to produce a song. So I think that's really helpful. I think rest is important, but you got to be on your case a little bit, whether that means setting up a session with other people or even just collaborating with people online. It's a great way to keep yourself accountable if it's hard for you to motivate that. And like anyone else, I love to sit on the couch and watch TV, so that definitely happens. But I will start to get a little stir-crazy after a couple of days if I'm not making something. I just try and keep the needle moving a little bit every week. I set deadlines for myself. If I'm really feeling uninspired, then I try and keep myself accountable with other people in the community or go to an event where I have to challenge myself or set up a creative boost train or something like that. Do you feel that your day job and your creative job are jobs sort of centered towards this producing identity, or are there separate processes which are kind of near each other? Yeah, interesting. There's definitely some overlap there, but they do feel like separate processes more or less for me. I think I just view the things I do for work as they're just fuel to the fire for producing or anything else that really interests me. And I think that's okay. I think most people, the more that you look at just everyone, we all kind of have to put in some level of sacrifice for the things we want. And I would even argue a lot of people at the top, if we're thinking within the musician category, have to do plenty of things that they don't want. People say that music is somewhat of a loss leader. There's a reason why Selena Gomez and Ariana Grande, there's a reason why they have beauty brands, right? And Dua Lipa has her podcast. If you look at the artists, they always have an offshoot in some case. I actually, I found this quote that Mitski, I'm going to read it. This is a quote that Mitski said after releasing Laurel Hell. She said, I thought that if I worked really hard at this, that eventually I get to the point where I can spend all my time making music. But I found that the more that I do this, the less time I get to spend on music. Around 10% of my time, or less than that, I'm actually making or playing music. Most of the time it's press and travel and admin, answering emails, and just being a business person putting out fires. It's just like being a working adult. No one gets to do just what they like all day. We have to make a living first, and then in the spare time, we get to do the thing that we love. So if it's a bad day, that is very sad news to hear, right? But it's also very liberating because you can kind of see, okay, this fantasy that I have that one day I'm just going to be able to strum my guitar, la, la, la. That doesn't even exist at the top, right? It's a different thing. Having a dream and achieving financial independence can coincide, but they're separate categories. And so whatever you do, having a job or spending a chunk of your day doing things that you might not otherwise, it's just part of it. And even for the people who we all look up to and fantasize about. I think I came across another Mitski quote. Basically, she said that the only thing she wants is being left alone. Yes, I remember that. Are you? Yeah, definitely. And I'm like, girl, I don't have the same, even though I don't have your level of fame. She's a good reference in that she doesn't seem to be a person who's 100% happy with her level of fame and responsibilities, which come with this fame. I think she's so fascinating because she's one of the most honest artists out there. Mitski interviews are full of wisdom, I will say. I'm excited. It's time to give some flowers to the delightfully curious, underrated pop music of Dora Jarr. Hey, my name is Kate. I'm an artist, and this is my series called Calculations. You do production, you create music, you publish essays, you share knowledge. Do you see this all as a coherent practice, or do you sometimes sort of struggle to balance these different roles? Oh, yeah, no. Sometimes I feel like, wow, I'm starting so many fires, and they're all just burning around me, and I can't tend to all of them. But I think in general, I think it's really important to stack your skills and play into your interests that aren't music as well, because I think it'll help make you a better artist. I think learning about the world and letting yourself be curious outside of the spaces that musicians typically are in, it's good for you to learn more. And it's also a welcome break. Okay, I'm making the music by myself, right? And then I'm marketing and creating visuals for the music by myself. And then I look at a video of myself singing along to my song, and then I post it on the internet to look at my other collection of videos of myself doing the same thing. And at some point, that gets a little maddening for everyone, because it can be so insular. So I think whether it's another interest or whatever, for me, it's really nice to step away and do something else. I also think it's really valuable. I was just talking to a friend about this. I have made a conscious goal lately. I should make friends also who are not musicians and make that one of my goals, because I think if you put all of your eggs in that basket, which I do feel like I do emotionally. But when you're inevitably having a bad day, where you feel really discouraged, and you feel like, what's the point of doing all these things? It can feel like you're losing everything if you don't have people around you who love you for you or love you for something that you're interested in that's completely separate from this. I just think it's important to find a way to step away, whatever that looks like. My question was about being or not being coherent. Maybe it just doesn't have to be coherent at all. I don't think so. I don't think so. I also think it's so amazing. Sometimes I have all what I feel is pretty niche music taste, but then in New York and L.A., everyone knows who I'm talking about. But then if I travel anywhere else, people are like, you're talking about who? You're talking about what? What are the – and people just don't care, which is amazing. It can be great. It can be great to recognize, I really love this thing, and it's really important to me, and I'm going to keep contributing to it because it makes my heart sing. But at the end of the day, we're all just little specks of dust, right? We're all doing our thing. Everybody has their own space. And yeah, I don't think it has to be coherent. There is something special in that. I think the more that you allow yourself to learn about other art and other disciplines and just other things will, I think, in turn, make the music better. Looking at today's landscape, say, streaming, Spino, DIY publishing, gigs, stores, what do you think feels most promising for musicians and what feels most fragile? I think the most promising for musicians is to cultivate a community where you are creating values directly with your fans. So whether that's on Patreon or you have a sub stack or a Discord or there's plenty of people who will create their own Max for Live plugins and sell those. I think that's the most promising model. It still takes a ton of work because you have to get to the point where your community is so invested in you that they're willing to put money down. But unfortunately, I think streaming is just way too fragile. Same thing, I mean, I think touring can be great, but you have to, it's kind of like a catch 22 with all of these things. I just think like the traditional music industry routes have become increasingly winner takes all. And so you can get to a point where maybe you're making a good chunk of income that way, but you're going to have to put in a lot of hours and a lot of work and there's a lot that's out of your control. And so in the meantime, you have to find a way to sustain yourself. I mean, let's say you're doing 100% of the work, 100% no cuts for manager, distribution, anything else, collaborators, you would have to earn 10.5 million listeners to earn minimum wage in the United States for the year. No way. I remember one of you asked if you mentioned a number, but I think back then it was slightly lower. It's getting worse. Yeah. It's getting worse. That's the other thing. I highly recommend if anyone's interested in this sort of thing, Ben Jordan, he goes by the artist name The Flashbulb, has a lot of really good videos around this topic. But yeah, streaming has just like quietly gotten worse over time. One thing I still find particularly infuriating is that you don't even earn any of your royalties until you get 1,000 plays on Spotify. And it's such a dangerous precedent that they have set, but it's clear that Spotify is trying to position itself to become a content platform versus a music platform. I think it was very upsetting for authors to have their books put on Spotify, and then Spotify decided to set the royalty rate the same as if you listen to a song. So the Spotify problem is they're just flattening media to be as cheap as possible for them to distribute, and there's not a lot of regulation that protects that. My whole point is that I think the most successful people will go for depth rather than saturation. You've got to build a real living, breathing thing. The word community is thrown around so much, but it's got to be something where you are providing value to your fans or supporters in some way, whatever that looks like. And then I think that's the closest you can get to building something that is more realistic unless you're one of the top 1% of artists. Yeah, I completely feel you. And I also feel that this sort of run towards numbers is so dangerous because it really interferes with the process of building relationships with people. And I think you put it in such a beautiful way that music is this language to basically build relationships, to express yourself, to kind of express something meaningful for you, and then to connect with other people on the basis of your work. And when you are running for these crazy numbers, which, first of all, won't feed you, you kind of don't have time and you don't have energy to put into this relationship. And in the end of the day, you're just drained because you don't have meaningful connections, nor you have money for tomorrow, which is so scary. Yeah, it's true. You've got to find a reason. You really have to sit with yourself. And it's an ongoing process because I have to remind myself all the time that the results are not why I'm doing it. Because like you said, it's not going to feed you anyway. So why are you doing this and figuring that out and reminding yourself and sticking to that? Yeah, and there's the other thing where people are like fighting tooth and nail over a couple of points on a song over royalties, and it does destroy relationships. And it's sad because that environment where people are doing that is just born out of the desperation of this industry, which has nothing to do with musicians themselves. The first question is, the last piece of gear you bought and absolutely loved? I finally pulled the plug and I got FabFilter Pro-Q and Serum because I get educational discounts this year. So that's been awesome. And FabFilter is the effort this year. So that's something nice. Second question is, a streaming platform feature you actually enjoy? Ooh, the Spotify Jam feature when you're in the car with someone. That's pretty awesome. I like that a lot. Success as a musician for you today is? To keep loving it. To keep being curious about what I can do with sound and what ways it'll take me to connect with other people and understand weird things that I can't describe. That's a brilliant answer and I can't agree more. Your favorite day job? Probably the one I have now just because it gives me flexibility in terms of hours and location. But I do, sometimes I look back on, I miss dog walking because I just love dogs and sometimes you would get amazing pooches. And a lot of my day was just spent walking around New York City. You know, oh, I've got, okay, I have to be outside for the next hour, you know, and just wandering. I loved that. That was really nice. I get you. I miss my kitchen work. I was working in the kitchen. That's amazing. I wasn't thinking, I mean, I was thinking, but I wasn't thinking in any creative thought for like 10 hours straight. I was just doing the thing. That's such a relief. Yes, I think I miss, sometimes I miss, and production fills a void for me there when I have this, but the physicality of it, right? Like you are totally in the moment. You're not like held by email notifications or whatever. It's like the task is in front of you. My final question. Say a new unknown artist come to you today asking for one piece of advice on starting a career. What would you tell them? There's no point in trying to make anything other than what you sound like because everything is so saturated already. So I think lean into the ways that you are unique and the things that you might feel insecure or weird about might be some of your greatest assets. And overall, if you just keep following things and know, knowing why you're following them and being as true to your source as you can, you're naturally going to attract other people who are interested in the same things you are. And the real gift is when you can connect with others through art. So yeah, be yourself sounds dumb, but that's essentially what it boils down to. I don't have any questions left. I think there is anything I haven't asked you, but you really want to know how this ended. No, you did a great job. You did a good job. You did a great job. I love you. Awesome. Thank you.