Taylor Interview

Taylor Hilly Carroll is a graduate student studying art history and visual culture. They recently organized an exhibition called "Black Joy is Black Activism" to explore the concept of black joy and its connection to activism. The exhibition included a workshop where participants created art pieces related to black joy. Taylor believes that art is a powerful tool for self-expression and can serve as a form of activism. They also discussed the importance of representing the diversity of black joy and the personal nature of creating art. The exhibition will feature artists' interpretations of black joy and aims to highlight the variety of experiences and emotions it encompasses. Taylor sees art as a way to express emotions and experiences that may be difficult to put into words and believes that sharing art can be a vulnerable and intimate experience. They also mentioned the importance of appreciating and celebrating artists while they are still alive. Overall, Taylor's artistic identity Hello. This is the test. Hello. Let's see. And we're going to start recording. Okay. Alrighty. So I am here with Taylor Hilly Carroll. Do you want to just introduce yourself as like a little intro? Yeah. Hi, I'm Taylor. I am currently a graduate student at Texas women's feathering studying my masters of art and art history and visual culture with a concentration in multicultural and gender studies. I'm aspiring or not even like I am a curator, I do a lot of curatorial work. And I am right now working on my black joy is black activism exhibition and we just had our workshop for students came to engage in creating art pieces to experience joy and kind of educate them on like what black joy really means. But yeah, I'm kind of doing all the time. Well, I got to attend this workshop you speak of, and that was kind of what inspired bringing you on as a guest today. So from my perspective, it was really cool because I just, you know, I got the flyer and I was like, I don't know what this means, but I'm going to show up. My friend is hosting it. I want to be there. And it was so cool to see just how many people came by, like from all different departments, like not everybody in the room, like identified as black. So it's really cool to have that, like diversity, that variety and all of us just making art together. So do you want to kind of just like paint a picture of of what happened? Yeah, I will paint a picture of this workshop. Basically, the workshop was to act as kind of a launchpad for like, well, what is black joy? Where does it come? What does this term come from? What does it mean? And like, how have other people gone in defining and how have other artists represented it in their work? And I kind of, you know, broke the term down so people could consume it. But basically, it's very subjective, just like art to where black joy is about, you know, experiencing joy through the black experience and how that in itself can be a form of activism because, you know, taking care of yourself and experiencing happiness and joy is one of the best ways to strike down your oppressor. Because they only desire you to fail and they only desire you to not experience joy. So it's kind of weird being putty, to be honest, but I wanted it to be an enlightening experience. And there were some people who weren't, you know, part of the African diaspora and don't identify as black. But I think it's important to educate the importance of joy, even in a general sense, to audiences because how that is a tool of political activism. And I use a lot of scholars' writings in addressing that, especially like Audre Lorde. She talks about how her restfulness and her self-care is a form of political activism. And I'm like, yes, this is true. Yeah, so that was actually going to be one of the questions because I read the answers that you gave before. So I was like, okay, Audre Lorde says caring for myself is not self-indulgence. It is self-preservation and that is an act of political warfare. So you did just kind of explain how that fits into your idea of black joy. What made you, like, you're an artist, you're an academic, you're an activist. What made you decide, like, we're going to look at black joy from an art as activism perspective, not just like something else? Does that question kind of make sense? Yeah, you know, I have my strengths. And I am an artist. I love creating art. I love observing and analyzing art. And, you know, art is a very accessible way for people to express themselves through different mediums. And that's kind of what I wanted the workshop to be. That's why I brought so many different ways to express themselves, like through collaging, painting, even just pencil and paper. The vast amount of possibilities that could happen through art. You get so many different representations of what black joy can look like. And having, it's really important to have those multiple representations of black joy to really get a sense of what it can mean per person. So that it's just not this stagnant, like, oh, this is what it means and nothing else. It's an ever evolving form. And I feel like art does the same thing, where it keeps evolving over time. So I think it's just, you know, we actually talked about something in our classes the other day. It was around, like, trauma. But we were talking about how art serves as this catalyst for the nonverbal experiences. And, you know, going through, you know, especially the things we're going through currently politically. It is very traumatic. It is very scary. And it's not always easy to, you know, talk about it and express it verbally. And as someone who does keep a lot of their emotions close to them, art has always been this form where I can express myself freely and accurately. Especially about how I'm feeling internally. That feeling of, I don't have the words. Well, you don't need the words. Like, just go for it. It's also very universal because across language barriers and across different experiences and locations, people really can identify with art pieces. And I think that's just really powerful. Yeah. And you mentioned, like, how it's not stagnant. I really appreciated that you designed this to be a workshop, not just come hear me lecture about how Black joy is Black activism. Like, I want you to produce your own artwork. And there's going to be an exhibition, right? Yeah. Do you want to tell us more about that? Well, the exhibition process has been a journey. But we are, or we, as in me, are finally doing the Open Call for Artists, hopefully tomorrow, where it invites artists to represent joy through the Black experience. And asking those artists, what does this mean to you? How are you representing that? Is it something very interpersonal? Is it something maybe more culturally relatable that maybe a lot of your community can understand? Is it, you know, something funny and goofy? Is it something really serious? And I really want to highlight with this exhibition the variety of joy that can be expressed and experienced, and how it can be visualized. Because, you know, I always feel like artists are like, oh, well, no one's going to understand. Like, there's going to be one other person who understands. You know, maybe not everyone, but sometimes just that one person who's like, I get this. Yeah. And this is not one of the pre-made questions, but just hearing you talk about it. Do you feel like art as a form of joy, like if it's a personal thing that no one else gets to see, versus it's something that's put on exhibition for the world to see. Do you feel like there's a difference in those relationships, or one kind of empowers the other? I have not fully formed this question. No, it's okay. What do you think about that? It's so interesting. I love how, because I take all of these classes. You know, we take all these theory classes. A lot of it pops up in my everyday life. I tend to think it's like, oh, maybe I'm in school too much. But, you know, I am an artist, but I very rarely put my art out in exhibition. Because, and I talked about this in my classes about how, honestly, I don't really make art for other people. I make art solely for my own needs and my own desires of like how I want to, you know, I'm having these feelings. Or I'm going through this right now, and I need to express it some way because I can't verbalize it. Right. And it always makes me happy, of course, when people feel something from my art. But I'm always like, I'm so happy that you really enjoy it. But it's not for you. Yeah, yeah. But I'm always happy like showing pictures to people like on Instagram and stuff, even though I don't always put it in exhibition. Because, you know, it can be an intimate experience. And it's very vulnerable for artists to, you know, share that piece. And so I'm always really thankful when artists are like, oh, I have some art. Yeah, yeah. It's one of those like, I mean, it's kind of depressing, but like when an artist will pass away and like, or a writer, like any type of artist, and you find all these things that they created, and you're like, why didn't you share this? Well, it wasn't for you, you know, like. Yeah, like, I think it was Ansel Doola. They were going through all of the documentations and artifacts that she had left behind. And she had all these little doodles in like, where were they? They're like fortune tellers, or like, they're in that like, I think it was Ansel Doola Reader, where they kind of analyze the her archive. I think that's what it is. I'm not sure. But they kind of go through the process of looking at, like, just, just like little doodles she does, and the artwork she creates. And, you know, contextualizing that to her experiences and her writings. And I think it's just a beautiful way, because this, to me, is what being an artist is about. It doesn't always have to be this, like, you're making the Mona Lisa, you're painting the Sistine Chapel, which is great. But sometimes it is just doing a little doodle, the little traces you leave behind for others to find. But it's always nice to be appreciated. Yeah. When you're still around. Yeah. And like, going back to, well, I was going to ask you, like, how you would describe your artistic identity. So like, in the beginning of the workshop, we talked about your great grandmother, right? Juanita? Yeah, Juanita. Nino? Yes. We all called her Nino. And I didn't find out her name was Juanita. Oh, wow. Until her funeral. Oh, my goodness. It was in her obituary. And I was like, Juanita. Who's that? And, you know, my family has a very non-normative tradition around death. We celebrate life. Which, you know, I shouldn't say non-normative. It's non-Western, if anything. Right. You know, the process of mourning, I think, you know, traditionally can be seen as very sorrow and grief-filled. Which is, you know, people have to go through that grief process in their own way. And I've always, you know, found it in moments that I channel my grief more through remembering how much the people I love impacted my life. And remaining integral to that. You know, my great grandmother was always a very generous, charitable woman. She was always very outspoken and always very caring and nurturing. So I always tried to, you know, live that way. But, you know, there are moments where I'm like, I just wish she was around. There's so many things I wish I had asked her in questions I wish she could, you know, or stories I wish she could tell me. But, you know, in a way, going through life, I'm thinking, like, what would she do? What would she tell me from, like, what I do know about her? And she would tell me, like, you know, just keep on trying. Just keep on pushing through and add what you need into your life. And I'm like, oh, she's my wife. Yeah, absolutely. And I really loved how you incorporated that into the workshop. Like, this is someone who's inspired me and, like, showed me through their life what it means to, like, live this type of joy. Yeah. And I guess, like, I read In Search of Our Mother's Garden because you recommended it. Yeah. And Alice Walker talks about in one of her essays how, like, she doesn't feel like there were any models for her with her art, with writing specifically. Because Black artists and writers, like, weren't presented in her formal education. Like, they weren't discussed as, like, high art to model in the first place. And so she had to seek them out and learn from them on her own. How do you feel like, like, your experience has been in academia? Because, like, we know that, you know, really inspired you, like, in your personal life, like, you as an individual growing up. But when it comes to, like, the academic side of it, do you feel like your experience is similar to Alice Walker or, like, you've kind of been exposed more to things? It's very interesting. You know, academically speaking, I am – I feel like a sponge. I'm absorbing all this information about all these brilliant, amazing people, and I want to consume more and more and more. And yet there's not enough. I'm always, like, there has to be more. Like, I love all the people I'm learning about now. And I'm sure that I'm still only scratching the surface, but, you know, the disparity is still very evident in the scholars and the artists and the writers that get recognition for their work. And, you know, in the ones that don't. And, you know, academically, I've always strove – or striven? Stroved? Strived! I've always strived to go seeking them out. And, you know, whether it's, like, a small article they did, like, 20 years ago, or if it's just this little book that they just had on their shelf, or, you know, really trying to get outside of my comfort zone. Because my comfort zone is what has been programmed into me by a society, which is to not look outside the mainstream. To not look outside the lens of, you know, what you're told art is. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, I often don't think, like, people – you know, being in the house, I'm like, you guys don't understand. But, honestly, the disparity between, you know, specifically, like, Black women artists who are, like, you know, visual artists or writers or what have you. The disparity of recognition. Not even – they exist, but it's just the disparity of recognition that they get compared to their counterparts is staggering. So, you know, and also kind of one of my goals is to, you know, bring them to the light, because they deserve that platform just as much. Yeah, absolutely. Sorry, I just had this, like, moment of terror. Like, what if we weren't recording the whole time? So, that's why I, like – and it continues recording, I think. Okay. Because Riley did this last time, so I'm just, like, terrified that it's not going to record. But it's all for nothing. We're good. Yeah. Okay. Let's see. So, we talked about having – I should have, like, asked these in order, but they're not in order. Which ones have I already asked? Just do it organically. You know, go with the flow. Enjoy. So, talking about the importance of having a community and collective strength as a way to keep going when it comes to, like, the activism side of things, this kind of does tie into what we were just talking about. So, can you tell me slash us about, like, what your community is like and the ways that they give you strength, like, that you can draw on them? Yeah. You know, growing up, I grew up in a very, very, you know, black community. I grew up in Third Ward, Houston, and my family, of course, is very black. Yeah. But I also grew up very matriarchally. I grew up around a lot of women. I went to an all-girls high school, and I don't want to say I was saturated in it, but I was already kind of saturated in the brilliance that black women can provide and exist and continue to do. And that was the kind of community I felt most comfortable in, you know. I always found it. You know, it's this very unique, intrinsic thing, you know. You might also identify, but, you know, if you're in a room and it's mostly white people and you're looking around and you see one other person, you're like, you're my neighbor's friend. Yeah. That, like, vision. Yeah. We are absolutely going to sit next to each other. Yeah, and we're going to gab. We know nothing about each other. We're probably from different parts of the world, but we have this interconnectedness, this hive mind. Yeah. I remember being in high school and someone asked me, like, why do all the black girls always sit together? And I didn't have an answer at the time, but, like, the more I thought about it, it was like, well, because we're all having, like, she's been asked that same question. Yeah. I think we already both relate because you're questioning, like, I didn't ask you why all the white girls sit together. Yeah. Like, we already have this level of understanding. Yeah. There's things that we don't have to explain to her. Obviously, our lives are different and we're going to learn from each other. Yeah. But, like, we can come to the table already feeling a sense of, like, similarity. And, you know, I hate to make this parallel, but, you know, it's kind of this semi-trauma bond. Kind of, yeah. Like, we have experiences that, like, we would have to explain to someone else. Yeah. Where we don't have to explain them to each other. I feel like the same goes for joy. Like, you know, certain communities don't have that joy of a cookout. Yeah. And some communities don't have that joy of, you know, finding a hair product that finally works for you. Yes. And sharing it with everyone you know. Exactly. So that we all can use it together. Yeah. You know, having those recognized experiences that happen, you know, diasporically, you know. And not to say that, like, my experience, you know. I'm a Southern Black woman from Houston. If I met someone from New York, I'm sure, like, we would have different experiences, you know, growing up and, like, maybe culturally. But I feel like we have this recognition of that diasporic experience. Like, we've come a long ways. And even though you and this other person would be able to see the differences in each other, the outside world is going to view you as the same. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. And then, you know, us being like, well, it doesn't really matter what they say because we're going to be happy, you know. And we could be happy with each other in our community. Yeah. We're all driven towards that goal. And that, like, openness is, like, everyone is welcome to share in this joy. But, like, I'm not going to let you take it away from me. Exactly. Yeah. Oh, this is a fun question. We're going to talk about Brooke tangentially. So, in what ways do you feel like you've already seen this workshop that we did impacting other people? Like, pre-exhibition, how do you feel like it's making a difference? I feel like, you know, sometimes it just takes a reminder of, like, how important taking just, like, 10, 15, 30 minutes to do something that makes you happy is impactful. And to, you know, even just re-educate yourself about an experience that, like, you know, obviously, if you're not Black, you're never going to understand the Black experience. But being willing to learn and accept and listen to, like, that this is a genuine experience that people have. And, you know, I've gotten a lot of, you know, response back, people saying, thank you, like, this is so educational. Like, they're re-learning how to experience joy. And, you know, it's not something innate in our society to learn how to be happy. If anything, they kind of try to tell you don't learn how to be happy, how to work harder, how to be more successful. And, like, you know, I'm down for the hustle, but I'm not down for really hustle culture. I think, you know, it's really a way of guiding us towards what I feel like should be life's goal, which is to be happy. Yeah. To be joyous and to, you know, if possible, bring joy onto others. And I was just happy that I was able to contribute to that experience and provide an opportunity for people to experience joy. And by doing so, I felt joyous. And, you know, it's just a beautiful cycle. Yeah. It was really cool to see how just organically, like, all of us being in that space led to people making plans, like, outside of the workshop to continue creating art and, like, regularly getting together and, like, doing this in their own time. Like, you created an environment where we could all come together and experience this. And then it naturally, like, you didn't have to say, hey, guys, now we're going to plan to meet every Friday and, like, continue doing this. It just happened. It creates a catalyst. It sprouts new communities and people wanting to learn more about themselves, about each other. And, you know, you're mentioning, you know, the groups that sprout up, and one of them is the collage group. There were a lot of people doing collages. And I was really surprised, but I was very happy. I was like, oh, my gosh, everyone was so into collaging. You know, it was so informative for me as well. The person leading the workshop, like, wow, I didn't know that this was something people enjoyed so much. And other people realizing, like, I didn't know I enjoyed this so much. And by doing so, they're like, we're going to do this more because we want to experience this joy more often. And I was like, oh, yes. Yeah, it was beautiful to see. And that's how I'm like, this is successful. Like, if you could measure success in terms of joy, this is successful. The joy meter off the chart. Yeah. Okay. Let's see. We did this one. We did that one. We did that one. We did that one. Oh, look at that. We're zooming on through. Okay. So part of our focus in having these conversations, like we're doing right now through this podcast, is to discuss emotional fatigue related to activism and social justice, and then how joy can be a source of resilience. So when we talked before, you mentioned prioritizing your rest. Yeah. Can you talk a bit more about how you do this and, like, what way you've seen it have an impact in your own life? So this is one of those repeat questions you've already answered, but we're going to say it again. It's hard. You know, like I said, like our society doesn't really give us a lot of opportunities to prioritize rest. You know, like we both work full time jobs. We both go to school basically full time. And we have things outside of school and work that we prioritize in our lives. And, you know, where does that leave room for just, you know, having moments to experience joy? And, you know, it's, I think, you know, part of the exhibition wanting to have these various representations of joy also go into the various ways you can experience joy. Like for me, I love cooking. And it's something that my great-grandmother passed down to me is the love of cooking and the art and form of cooking and the providing of sustenance to other people. And how it's always filled me up with joy. And it's always filled me up with the memories of my great-grandmother. And how I'm like, I don't have time to cook. I don't have time to do that. Which, you know, that's life. Sometimes I try to do things, but then I'll realize I've got a month without cooking anything. Yeah. And I'm like, I feel so distant and disconnected from my great-grandmother. And I feel so disconnected from my community because I haven't cooked anything for them. I haven't cooked anything for myself. I feel like my body hasn't been nourished and sustained. Right. And it's kind of this process. You have to figure out basically what brings you joy to a point where it can sustain you. And it can be almost anything. You know, maybe it's reading a book. Maybe it's taking a bubble bath. It can be even just laying in grass. You don't know how many times I've just laid in some grass. Or hugged a tree. Or hugged a tree. And you know, it doesn't have to be conventional. It doesn't have to be like this. If your joy is skydiving, listen, hun. That's your business. That makes you happy. That makes you happy. And there's no one right way. If you don't know the way, try different ways. You know, they're all out there and they're all different. And it can be really hard to make time for those things. But it's so crucial. We don't have a lot of time on this earth and we don't have, you know, we don't always have the luxury of having joy, you know, provided to us. So sometimes it's just dependent on us to just take it. And take those opportunities to be joyous and, you know. Happy. Yeah. So another author that Riley and I have been talking about lately is Tricia Hersey with her book, Rest is Resistance. And she says, rest is a form of resistance because it disrupts and pushes back against capitalism and white supremacy. So in her work, she calls attention to time spent resting as a way to reclaim rest that was denied to our ancestors who may have been denied rest. And to envision a dream, envision and dream of new futures. So I feel like from my perspective, like there is a lot of Tricia Hersey's like alternative activism that aligns with your philosophy. But like, if you want to put it in your own words, like art as activism connected to rest as resistance. Yeah. You know, I've been seeing on like TikTok, this whole movement. I think it happened on like April 5th of where everyone was going to march, but lots of people were like, I'm going to sit down. Okay. Because we've been marching, man. We've been marching. And now it's time for us to sit, not sit in complacence and not sit in like negligence, but to sit and rest in resistance because our, our rest is crucial. We deserve rest. The, you know, we were all talking about this in class. I'm just recapping. But we were talking about the storing of trauma within the body, in the physicality, you know, how it physically impacts you and how generational trauma isn't, it is, you know, part of how, like how your mom, how your grandparents were raised is how your mom was raised, how you were raised, but also the actual trauma, how it was stored in the body and how that genetically is passed down. And how you have to go through that process of healing your body over and over again to, to get to a point where, you know, even, even just accomplishing the ability to rest, I feel like it's an achievement because I feel like even when I'm resting with my air quotes, you're not really resting. I'm still stressing. I'm still thinking like not doing what you need to be doing. I'm like, why am I thinking that I don't deserve this? Why am I thinking that I don't deserve 20 minutes of just sitting down and doing nothing? Yeah. It's like, I think Riley and I talked about this when we talked last week, like this idea that your time belongs to someone else and it's not you. And so you don't, you don't deserve to use it the way that you want. You don't get to spend it how you want because someone else owns it. And it's like, no, I'm taking it back. This is mine. My, you know, my great grandmother, she lived for a very, very long time. She was like, I can't remember how old she was actually, but she was old. Yeah. I always remember, you know, every time I see her, she was always working. She was always, you know, she was always up and doing something. She liked it. She likes being up and physical and stuff. I was always like, don't you want to sit and rest? She's like, you know, it's hard for me to rest. It was always heartbreaking because I was like, you deserve to rest. It wasn't necessarily she didn't want to. She's just like, I don't know how. Right. You know, it wasn't, it wasn't a luxury afforded to her. And, you know, I feel so blessed because she offered me those opportunities. She'd always tell me, like, you need to sit. You need to eat. You need to sleep. And I knew, like, it always came from a place that, like, she would desire those things for herself. And I'm always very adamant about that with my friends. I'm like, you need to eat. You need to sit. You need to sleep. Yeah. Like, when people come into my house, I'm like, don't stand. You're stressing me out. You need to relax. The idea of, like, the caregiver needs to be cared for. Yeah. Also. And, you know, sometimes it's, I don't always remember that. But, you know, that's life. You know, sometimes other things take priority for a little bit. But I always, it's always, it's always important to remember the absolute truth that, like, you deserve rest. You deserve joy. You shouldn't be destroying your body. Absolutely. Yeah. And maybe there's a place for, like, like, rest buddies. You know, like, you're, you forget you need to take a second. Yeah. Like, someone can be like, hey, I'm your accountability partner. Not to get stuff done. Mm-hmm. But to take a break. That's how I am with my, with my best friend. We're always like, hey, what if we take, like, just 20 minutes and we just, like, eat chocolate. We watch one episode. We gab. Mm-hmm. We just take a little minute. And it recharges us, like, instantly. And then we have, we call it rat days. Yeah. Where we just rat inside. And we're like, we're, we're the laziest and the most, you know, gluttonous and the most, like, and we just self-indulge. But here's the thing. We paint those things to be such negative, like, such. Right. Like, scourge or the other thing. Like, it's morally wrong. It's morally wrong to be lazy. Yeah. And, you know, it's not, you should never be neglectful of your, of yourself and your needs and things like that. But it's one thing to be neglectful, and it's one thing to just, you know, sit and listen to your body and your body be like, hey, like, I need a day. Mm-hmm. I need a muscle health day. I need, I need, you know, a break from the hustle. Because, listen, your body has got to stick with you for a long time. This is true. And you've got to stick with it for a long time. And if you want to, if you want to do it for a long time, you've got to listen to it. Yeah. Y'all both need to make it to the finish line together. Exactly. You cannot leave one behind. You know, you can't leave one behind. Y'all are in tandem the whole time. Three-legged race. You and me. Okay. I think we're almost to the end. Okay. So, this is like, it's kind of a little repetitive, but we're just going to, like, we're going to map it all together. So, what does art as activism mean to you? And then, like, in what ways can you see it showing up in your life right now? Ooh, okay. We talk about this a lot in our classes. And it's, you know, as much as we do talk about it, it's kind of hard to pin down in so many words. But basically, you know, art is the vessel for activism. And it serves as this means of representation for so many different groups and the ability to be expressed in so many different ways and so many different methods of material and venue and capacity, the ability for people to engage with it. And it becomes, you know, also it becomes this universal language. Across the world, you know, those who experience oppression or injustice see these acts and see this representation and then themselves feel empowered to resist and perform activism. And, you know, for me, I'm always like, I can't do anything. Like, what am I going to do? I'm just a normal person. But every activist is just a normal person. Like, no one is special. No one is more special than anybody else. And we're all just normal people trying to get through the day. But to be an artist, you know, and to have this opportunity to impact your community and to make change, it's very, it is still very special, you know, because you get to be a conduit for your community. And your community gets to surround and be around this movement with you and contribute. To me, it's always been this really beautiful experience. It's a human experience, really, because, you know, I've always felt like humanity is dependent on art, is dependent on representation. And I think art also is seen as, like, oh, man, like, he's talking about, you know, thank you, thank you, oh, sorry, night. Yeah, sure, it's art. But art has the ability to be abstracted and, you know, expanded and micro to so many different degrees and fluctuate with the fluidity of being human. And I just love it. That's why I think it's one of the most diverse and one of the most impactful ways to engage in activism. Because we can all be artists. Absolutely, yeah. And I think, like you just said, art has so many different definitions. Like reading Alice Walker, she was talking about artists really often. And I was like, wait a minute, she's talking about writers, too. Yeah, like it's not an exclusive term, it's like inherently an inclusive idea. To be an artist, you kind of already take this place as a rebel. Yeah. You know, even my family, who was very encouraging me, you know, which is not very often, it's not very popular in the black community. They were very encouraging of me becoming an artist, because they knew I had something to say. But sometimes they would be like, are you sure you want to do this? Like, you're not going to make any money. And I'm like, it's not about making money. It's about, you know, expressing myself, which in itself is like already going against the patriarchy and hustle culture, because I'm not here for money. I'm not here for capitalism. Say it again for the people in the back. I'm here, I'm doing this for me. I'm doing this for the girls. I'm doing this for my community. And, you know, already being in this kind of rebel community, like being an artist, however that takes form, you get this voice inside of you saying, like, I need to express this. I need to say this. And, you know, I think that's one of the reasons I, you know, desire to be a curator. Even though I am an artist who keeps a lot of their art close to themselves, my message with that art is still powerful. And my goal with wanting to be a curator is to help artists who are like, I need to get this out there. I'm like, I'm going to do that for you. I'm going to help you because I see your vision. I see your message. And it needs to be heard. Absolutely. Yeah. Okay, so two more questions. And then I'm going to have you introduce yourself again, but like all hyped up. Okay. Okay. So what advice would you give to someone struggling with activism burnout? You know, being an activist, you get a lot of burnout because you're always advocating for yourself, for communities who deserve human and civil rights. And it's emotionally, physically, it's exhausting on all levels because you're literally just trying to live. Right. The struggle of trying to live in itself sounds so, so ridiculous. And yet, here we are. And I think, you know, with the burnout, it's important to realize that you are also part of that community. You are in a long fight against the system that is deeply ingrained. And to continue on advocating and continue to be an activist, you have to be an activist and advocate for yourself, which sometimes means like, I still support you, and I am still here for you, but I need to sit. I need to sleep. I need to eat. And I'm always, you know, there's lots of discussion in the terms of like, what is really activism? And who isn't really an activist? And, you know, it takes so many different forms. Like there are people who proclaim to be activists, but do not act. You know, they will say, I support these things, but in their actions, do no actual acting. Yeah. And I would say, you know, you're not really an activist. But I wouldn't say that because you need rest and you need to sit and be within yourself that you're not an activist. I think you're an activist if your intentions are true, if your actions are integral, and your attempts are genuine. They don't have to be grand ventures of, you know, rallying thousands and hundreds of people in the streets. And, you know, and that's a great form of activism. It can also just be painting something or writing something and then sharing it with people and then people rallying around that. Right. You know? Absolutely. Yeah. So final question. So in In Search of Our Mother's Gardens, it was originally published in 1983. But the version that I read had an author's note from Alice Walker from 2023. From 2023. And it provided more context to the work. Like it defined womanism. And in this letter to the reader, she says, womanist is to feminist as purple is to lavender. And I remember you asking Liz about this. And I remember like little like antennas. I was like, what is that? That sounds cool. Like, I want to know more about that. But so knowing that you were talking about this like three months ago, as someone who is well versed on this topic, like what is that? What does that quote mean to you? I, let me tell you this. I love Alice Walker. I love this piece of hers. You know, be a feminist. To be a womanist and to be a feminist are not mutually exclusive. Like you don't have to be one or the other. Okay. You can be both. More often than not, you are both. You just might not know it. To be a feminist, you, for better or not, you kind of, you focus on the rights of all. And to be a womanist, you amplify that more to be sustaining in the, really the growth of humanity, I feel like. That's how it is for me. You know, they go in tandem. To be a womanist is really to look out for the benefit. And it sounds so, it sounds so, I don't know, evangelist or maybe like super heroist to say it like that. But that's what it feels like to me. And yeah, I was really happy that you read it. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like, so my, like my interpretation is kind of like woman is the feminist. It's purple. It's lavender. Like purple is a deeper color than lavender. And so it's like it, it has like something more robust. Yeah. And to me it's like that, that robustness comes from like the introspection and like the internal work. How do you feel? Oh, shh. Black. Yeah. Yes. Um, you know, I, I've read a lot of Alice Walker's work and I'm including a lot of her writings in like my academic writing. And also like Toni Morrison and Bell Hooks. Yes. Oh, all these women that they, the way they just express themselves in words. Like one day myself, maybe. I'll get close. You can do it. I'm reaching. Alice Walker would say like, yes, you can do it. Thanks. And I think, you know, we go through these waves of feminism and I, maybe, maybe, maybe I'm a, I'm a bad person for saying this, but. I have a feeling I'm going to agree with you. So go ahead. I think, you know, feminism is important and it should be talked about and it should be advocated for, but we are losing the main message of what we're trying to say with feminism and womanism puts that, you know, we are here for all. We are trying to support the rights of humans and the rights of everyone because everyone deserves to be happy. You know, she also points out, like, I think womanism is, you know, singing and dancing and eating and I'm like, yes, this is what it is. This is what it is to be alive. This is to experience life. And people don't get to do that. People don't get to eat. They don't get to sing. They don't get to dance because of oppressive government, because of tyrannical rule, because a human, for some reason, ventured to just continue cause the lack of joy in people's lives. And we need to be driven to, you know, prevent that, combat it, and in our own ways. And I think it's just a beautiful way of realizing what we're fighting for. There is importance of looking at it as a political venture because it is. But to put it on a human level, a humanitarian level of we are here working so people can be happy and live their lives for the rights to their own bodies, for the rights to leave their homes and not be afraid. And, you know, presently, our government is working very hard to make us fear it. Right. And it's working. Yes. Unfortunately. And, you know, I think in our activism, we have to make sure that we make spaces where we can feel safe and heard and realize that we're not alone because that's a tactic. It makes you feel isolated. It makes you feel like you're hopeless and that there is no joy left in the world. You might as well give up. Exactly. Yeah. And it's really hard, you know, with the burnout. You want to give up. You're like, I've been trying so hard and we've been working so hard and look where we are. And, you know, maybe, you know, maybe those moments of rest can be those moments where you're like, this is what I'm fighting for. I'm fighting so people can have these moments to rest. I'm fighting because there's people out there who are fighting consistently over and over and over again and never get to rest. And, you know, while I rest now, they fight for me. And while they rest, I fight for them. You know, it's this tandem. It's this cycle that we go through. And I'm hoping, you know, in the grand scheme that my exhibition provides some modicum of joy. And even that, you know, to me will be the biggest achievement because it's the combatant of what I know our oppressors will hate. And I live to make them angry. I live to make them upset. Absolutely. Because, you know, if me being happy makes them upset, then I am going to be ecstatic. But, yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining me today, Ms. Taylor Haley Carroll. I hope you are able to decipher through all my blabbering. Oh, my gosh. We've got like an hour worth of content. It's going to be great. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. Okay. Can you introduce yourself one more time, but like hyped? Hi. My name is Taylor Haley Carroll. I am originally from Houston. I moved up here to Denton to go to Texas Women's. I have my bachelor's in general studies with a concentration in art and business. I also am currently getting my master's of arts in art history and visual culture with a concentration in multicultural women and gender studies. I am a curator who is focusing on their current exhibition of how black joy is black activism and just highlighting, you know, the beauty of black joydom and the power that it has in combating, you know, oppression and just providing space for these artists to share their stories with us. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining us. Yes, this has been fantastic. We will come up with our outro and all that. Okay. Bye.