Saltburn Talking Pictures 26th Sept 2024 draft 1

Three friends discuss their thoughts on the film Saltburn. They all initially enjoyed the film, but upon reflection, they found issues with the characters and themes. They felt that the protagonist's motivations were unclear and that the film spoon-fed the audience too much. They also discussed their expectations going into the film and how it subverted those expectations. One friend appreciated the dark and unexpected elements of the film, while another wanted it to focus more on class issues. Overall, they had mixed feelings about the film and its themes. Hello, you're listening to Talking Pictures. I'm Ali and today I'm joined by Nicola and Jasper. Hello, guys. How are you? Hello, nice to be here. Yeah, good. We are talking about Saltburn today, which has only just been released. We actually saw it in a cinema all together a few days ago. So, you know, it's all very fresh in our minds. So yeah, this is, I guess, more of a review in a way, because of course, none of us went into this thinking, this is our favorite movie because none of us had seen it before. So I'm going to start by asking, what were your immediate thoughts? Immediately, we came out of the cinema and I think all of us were just absolutely shocked by what we've seen in a great way. It was an incredible experience being at the cinema. I absolutely fell in love with the film. As a piece of filmmaking, I was just astonished. It was amazing. All right, so I'm going to correct you on that. I'm not part of the all of us. So I didn't know if you two were like really, really into it, which is awesome. I liked it, but I wouldn't say it was one of my favorite films of all time. I would say, yeah, like 7.5 or 8 out of 10. Yeah, I really liked it though. Yeah, I did like it. I think, you know, immediately when we came out of the cinema, I thought that was such an epic, cool film. Like I said, that was sick. I think it's very entertaining. There are a lot of scenes in it that really feel like they're there to, yeah, shock people in a way, get people talking. But I think it was one of those things, you know, it was really entertaining and I liked it when we were watching it. And we came out of the cinema and I thought that was great. But on reflection, and I'll ask you guys how you felt about it on reflection, because for me, it just felt a bit, the characters and the themes didn't really hold up. Yeah. I mean, how did you guys feel about it upon reflection? I mean, kind of, for me, my opinion didn't really change that much. It was like a seven or eight out of 10 then, and it's still that roughly around that scale now. I would say my biggest issue coming out, like my first question to you guys, I don't know if you remember, was like, so what is the protagonist's motivation? I didn't really get him. He was really entertaining. The performance was great. The movie was really epic. Like you said, like the score, everything was really beautiful. It was really entertaining to watch. I was like, what does he want? Yeah, I agree. Because that's how I felt. I felt very, in the moment, this is great. And we talked outside of this episode about the aspect ratio and how visually the film is obviously really well thought out and really well directed. But it's things like the story, the character motivation, especially the motivation of the protagonist, that just upon reflection seemed to fall apart a little bit. I mean, Nicola, how did you feel? Yeah, it's like what we were saying earlier, like it's meant to be a character study, right, of Oliver. And I do agree, when we were watching it, I love that we follow him as our protagonist because he is a very questionably, like, you know, morally, he's very questionable. But we are on his side for most of the film. And when we came out of it, I'm similar to Jasper in that we don't really know what his motivations were. We don't really understand why he did what he did. And we were kind of made to feel at the end, I think there's a scene that's sort of near the end that ties it all together. And we're meant to believe that he had kind of pre-thought of all of his actions. And all these plot points that we're led to believe are coincidence, we're led to believe are now pre-thought actions. And I don't, that kind of ruined, I think, the rest of the film. Was it that it had been too heavily explained? Or was it the actual, that a big plot device you couldn't buy into? I think it was partially the spoon feeding to the audience. Sometimes it's, it's just nice for a film to leave you with your own thoughts and you to sort of join the dots yourself, even if you join them a bit later, like a few days later, you're like, oh, did they do that because of that? But whereas I think this film didn't really leave you with that. It kind of tried to tie in, which is sometimes nice in a film. But I think with this particular film, it didn't really add anything new to it. It kind of made what you would have been left with otherwise a bit different. Yeah, I'd agree. I feel like, especially towards the end, it was like the filmmakers wanted to be like, done, done, done. Oliver did this, or Oliver was responsible for this, or he orchestrated this like a puppet master. But in the end, I was like, I think it would be cooler if you didn't reveal that through a series of flashbacks. It would be cooler if you're like, oh, actually did Oliver like do that? Exactly. If you allow the audience to contemplate upon what he had actually done. Yeah, no, I agree. I do agree. We're talking about Oliver here and the fact that, you know, we follow him from the start. It's kind of the film is kind of from his perspective. I think that really impacted what I expected from the film at the start. You know, you see this protagonist, you expect the bad things to be happening to them, especially because that is what I had heard about the film going into it. I had heard it was compared to Get Out. And so you think Get Out, you are introduced to this protagonist. The film is, you're watching it from their perspective. You think all these horrible things are going to happen to them. That expectation was, of course, massively subverted. But I was just wondering if you guys had any expectations coming into this film, or you thought it was going to be like a certain film or anything like that. And then it just wasn't. I think I went into it kind of thinking it would be a bit like Knives Out. I didn't think it would be as, I guess, shocking as it is. There are a few times where you think, are they going to go there? I don't think they're going to go there. And then they do. And I really respect that from a filmmaker. I just really, really respect that. But I wasn't expecting it. I kind of expected it to be a little bit more low key, a little bit more like on the comedy side, which it was very funny. But it was just also very, very dark. But I love that about it. I love that. Yeah, I was expecting Get Out. Because like I told you, I didn't watch a single trailer or anything. Basically, I just got your kind of pitch of it as like, oh, it's a get out, but with a white protagonist. That's what I heard. Yeah. Yeah. And the first half of the film, I genuinely thought that was the case. Yeah. When Oliver first gets to Southburn, someone tells him like, oh, I like you more than the last one. Yeah. And when she said that line, I thought, he's dead. Like the last guy, he's dead. Oh, my gosh, his family are going to, they've kidnapped Oliver, they're going to kill him. Like, that's exactly what you're expecting. And I think that's intentional. I think the film wants you to assume that this family have accepted Oliver and that something bad is going to happen to him. And then because of that, when you're introduced to Oliver's character and there are these moments when, yes, the mask begins to slip a little bit and you can see that there is this evil kind of, I guess, underneath or at least this control that he has. And I think when I saw these moments of control, I thought, oh, yeah, great. Like this family, they've kidnapped him, they're trying to kill him. And then he's going to get them like he's in control. No, it was just completely subverted. And I think when Felix drives Oliver to the home of his family, even when I was watching that, I was thinking, oh, my gosh, this is such a manipulative, horrible thing to do. And it's only when they get into that home and Oliver's lives are unraveled that I think for the first time I really thought, oh, no, he's the one that you need to be keeping an eye on. It's not this family kind of trying to orchestrate everything. This family aren't putting on this kind of false show of ignorance. That's just actually what they're like. And it's Oliver who really is the one who is deceiving us, I guess. Yeah. I think from that scene onwards, it completely changed the tone of the film. Yeah. Because as we were saying, it kind of mimics, like we thought it was a film about class, whereas Get Out's about race. We thought it was like that, but with class. And it completely fits on his head. It's like, you know, kind of mimicking working class families. Yeah. And suddenly it's not about that at all anymore. And I think in some ways, I really wanted it to be about class. And that's what I thought. This is about maybe more than halfway into the film, right? Yeah. And I think changing the tone at that point, thematically, just completely, it made me feel very differently about the film. Yeah, I actually respectfully disagree with that. I was really excited when it started to go away from the Get Out route, because like I mentioned just now, when I thought it was just, oh, it's Get Out and the family's going to kill this guy. I was like, oh, I can see the rest of the movie happening already. But when it kind of pivots and it's revealed that he's the, I guess, antagonist or villain, like Oliver, I was like, oh, this is interesting. It's not just about like, oh, a fish out of water in this new environment who's going to get killed. Yeah, I do agree with that. But I think I saw this review and it was talking about how the film, so Emerald Fennell, who directed, wrote, produced, she has talked about how the film is about class. But I do wonder how, is it really about class? Because how can a film be about class? When, as this review was saying, the film is about the haves and the want-mors, not the haves and the have-nots. There's not a single working class character actually represented in this film. So I did find it interesting that, I think, yes, absolutely, it did veer away from that Get Out storyline. And I think it was really interesting, but also all the commentary that had been built up around the fact that this rich family has taken in this, what they believe to be working class character because there's almost, they see that as something almost exotic. That commentary, yes, it's still there, but it crumbles slightly because what Oliver's been describing is a fantasy that he has created for this family because he knows that that's what appeals to them. I don't know. Yeah, I think it's interesting as well that it is his kind of fantasy and this thing that he's mocked up, that he's kind of almost preying himself on the working class by creating this image of himself as being that. And I think that could almost be seen as its own little commentary if you want to view it that way. Because the fact that someone does that knowing that it will be seen as exotic and it will be seen as they kind of want to take him in and change him. And that's why he's so accepted. I think him knowing that by being in this working class shell, he's going to be more accepted. It's very, very telling. Yeah. I do find that really interesting. I think it's just that the fact that there's no truthful working class representation in this film is what makes it a bit jarring almost. You then hear the director say that it's all about class. It's about the upper class, but is it really about class as a whole? I'm not sure. Yeah. What did you think? Yeah, you're right. Once Oliver switches from a working class person into actually being a middle class person, I feel like that theme gets dropped, like the theme of class in general didn't get discussed much anymore. Because immediately after that sequence and at Oliver's parents' house, Oliver and Felix have a fight. But after that, they don't really discuss it. It becomes more about like obsession and belonging, I think, you know, when Elspeth when Elspeth decides to like after that, the film kind of just becomes like, oh, after each of these family members begin dying, kind of Oliver finds new reasons to stay at this family home in Salisbury. And it's not really about class anymore. It's more so about like, oh, Oliver, you remind me of my son, so you should stay as an Elspeth. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I do find that in terms of class, the representation of the upper class family, very interesting when you compare them to other similar families. You know, this film, I've seen some reviews talk about how it's been referred to as an eat the rich film, and I don't think it is. The family in this you're expecting, I think, because you're, I went into expecting get out, you're expecting them to be evil. But actually, what I found a bit challenging with it was the fact that their badness or their villainy is so on the nose. So there's this scene where Oliver can overhear them discussing what they believe to be his family's background. So they say, where is Liverpool? Oh, in the north. And they talk about, oh, there's no rehabs in Liverpool. And it's just such on the nose ignorance that there's no, it doesn't seem threatening, like this family don't seem genuinely threatening. And I think that's one of the challenging things with this is, is this really an eat the rich film? No, because the rich, it's not celebrating the downfall of this family, because this family at the end of the day, they're not really bad people, they're deeply ignorant, but they, they are not threatening, because their ignorance is so on nuanced. You know, I don't know, that's, that's how I feel about it. They're not even really villains. Are they? No, they're obnoxious, they're pretentious, they're arrogant, they're ignorant, and like naive. But at no point, do they actually like threatened Oliver? No, like his wife is never in question. And yeah, I think they're one. If you could argue for any villainy that might be there is the control that they wield over Farley, who will get on his couch in a bit, I find his character really, really interesting. But I think that's maybe the one ounce of villainy that they have is their ability to essentially dictate life. But then, but again, that's, but being a bad person doesn't make you a villain, you know, no, they can. And this is the thing. It's like, when it comes to this class dynamics, you have this middle class character, who I would argue is almost an embodiment of class nobility, trying to defeat an upper class family who have not been represented as deserving of that. And again, what's the message? Like, why does he want to defeat them so badly? Then? Yeah, it isn't an eat, eat the rich story. Yeah, no, it's challenging. What did you think? Yeah, I think I went in a similar thing, but a different angle, like coming in as a story about obsession. I love stories that follow an obsessed protagonist, whether it be Whiplash, or Black Swan, like obsessed with their craft. But this is very different. Obviously, he's obsessed with Felix. And similarly, I didn't quite understand, I guess, the way he was obsessed with him. Did he want to be with him? Did he want to be him? Did he want his life? Because that's how it kind of manifested in his family. And again, then not being evil people, but obviously his control over them. And that was just questionable. Why? I suppose he wanted that in the terms of is it about class? Is it about wealth? Or is it just about Felix? Yeah, because he clearly, you know, even when they're in Oxford, he clearly desires what Felix has. I mean, he, there's that girl who's waiting for Felix, and then Oliver gets with her. And he wants to have what Felix has. So yeah, is it about class? Is it about wealth? Or is it just about Felix? That's interesting. I initially thought it was about Felix, because, you know, during his opening monologue, he was like, Oh, Felix has a lot of friends, but I'm the only one who really gets him because I'm real, everyone's fake. So I thought he was like, kind of like a lover who was like, Oh, everyone sees you as this popular person, but I see you for who you truly are. I mean, it's like, yeah, spoiler alert, but he ends up, you know, Felix, it doesn't end so well for Felix. So I'm just like, what was your goal with? Yeah, with integrating yourself in his life? Like, did you want want his life? Or did you want him as a person? Yeah, no, it is. It is interesting. And especially as Spinell has talked about how it is about first love, and it's about obsession. But then it does raise the question obsession with what I think. I mean, to expand upon the theme of class, I think a really big facet of that within this film is the performance and the performativity of class, and especially the performativity of English class and this very old money environment. I do think that's really interesting. And Spinell in an interview talked about how, you know, it's set in this English country house. And I mean, the setting is gorgeous and how it's a very restrained environment. And we see that you see that so much. I think like we've discussed this scene outside of this podcast, but the scene when they're trying to close the curtain to protect the family from seeing Felix's dead body, essentially. And it's such a great scene because the family is just trying to function, eating shepherd's pie and trying to act like nothing has happened. And the one character who's showing kind of an ounce of emotion is the American character. And I think I do find that interesting, the performativity of class. But I think it's something that Fennell herself has said that she understands, which I think you can really see. So Fennell is from quite a well-known, influential family. She went to Oxford herself. I think she was probably an undergrad at about the time that this is set. So the film is set in 2007. I think it does a great job of setting it then. I think it's really cool. But she has talked about in an interview how when she was at Oxford, she wanted to be perceived as sexy and clever. So she has that acknowledgement of the fact that in this environment, everything is very performative. Everything is about how other people perceive you. And I think, I don't know, I did find that really interesting. I think the film did that well. How did you guys feel about that? Yeah, I think going back to that scene you mentioned where they're all at the table and they are grieving, but they're not allowing themselves to grieve. And the only person showing any kind of emotion is Farley. And he's being dismissed for that. He's being talked down to for that. And I love that scene as well from a filmmaking perspective because they want to draw the curtains so they don't see their son. And when they draw the curtains, everything goes red. And I just love that, just the colour, because obviously everyone's got red in their skin. It kind of masks people's faces. You don't really see their emotions in the red light. And I just, I absolutely love that. I think, yeah, getting on a bit to cinematography, but the cinematography just works so well thematically with what everything is trying to do. And I think it's just so interesting, that performance of not showing emotions, being, you know, even when the worst thing has happened, you still have to eat lunch and you still have to, you know, these rules are still very much in place. We don't ever break the rules, even in this scenario. And I just think it's so interesting. That scene did it really, really well. No, it's really interesting. Just a tangent here, but like the cinematography, so we talked about the aspect ratio on this episode, but the closeness of everything and how, because the aspect ratio, it's almost a square. And I think Sennel has talked about how she wanted it to feel as though, as an audience, they're kind of peeking into this life as though we're kind of almost looking through that crack in the door that Oliver is looking through at one point in the film. But it also, it does cram the characters together. So you feel that, yes, the uncomfortable tension between some of them, but also like how erotic it is in certain times, the closeness of everything. But yeah, so the cinematography, I agree. Sorry, Jasper, what did you think about, yeah, the performativity of it all? Honestly, that scene, I just thought it was shot beautifully. I'm not sure if that was the director's commentary on how she felt growing up. Because you said she comes from a pretty wealthy, upper class family, right? So is that how her childhood is like, like where her parents also like, oh, don't show. I'm not sure if it was about her family life necessarily, or more just about being a student in a place like Oxford, and being hyper aware of how everyone perceives you and feeling the need to perform. And of course, you know, that is something that bleeds into the family environment. So I don't know. I'm not sure if it was necessarily about her own family. So we've already mentioned Oliver and his motivations and how there is absolutely a lack of clarity there. And I think I have come across with you talking about why is he doing this? And I think it is a very, it's an absolutely reasonable critique. But yes, how, what did you guys think about Oliver as a, can we even call him a protagonist as the, the eyes through which we are seeing everything? What did you think about Oliver as a character in general and his motivations? Like, you're not meant to love him. I can't, I guess I can't say like, I love him. I really did like, love him being the protagonist. I liked him being like the eyes we saw everything through, because I think especially when you have a character who is obsessive, you need to see why they are obsessive and you need to see what they're obsessed with through their lens. And I think it did such a perfect job of doing, especially in like the Oxford stage where he first meets Felix. I mean, he like, he saw him out of the crowd, you know, instantly. And he latched onto him and we kind of see his eyes as he follows Felix throughout that. So we've seen him watching Felix. We've almost been watching Felix from like a distance. So I think like him as a protagonist, I really liked how we're introduced to him and how we're introduced to his obsession. I think otherwise the rest of the story wouldn't have kind of worked. And it certainly wouldn't have worked if anyone else was kind of leading this protagonist. No, no. Yeah. We have to see his perspective and understand how it got there. Definitely. Yeah. I'd agree with that. I'd say I love stories that have traditionally antagonistic characters as the protagonist. And they're not really like softening anything he does. They're not trying to say, Oh, Oliver is right. Or Oliver is justified. It's just like absolutely from, from the villain's point of view. But I do think like, I like films like, like American Psycho or Joker or any of these films with kind of villainous protagonists. But I thought the difference, like you said, was like, I just really didn't get this person. I don't think, I don't mean that in like a, Oh, he's very enigmatic. So he's like charismatic. And I really want to know more. I'm just like, he just seems really like confusing to me. Why, why are you so obsessed with this particular rich guy and this particular family estate or like, yeah, why did he target Felix? Yeah. But also even just what is his motivation to kill the family and like, why, why go about that in such a violent way, especially when Felix is represented as, I think this is Felix's characterization is really interesting because you expect the mask to slip, especially at the start when you're seeing these montages of kind of clubs and you, you expect it to be revealed that he's awful. No, he isn't like he is what everyone thinks of him. He is just a really not, yes, fine. Ignorant, naive, but a really nice friend actually. There's nothing terribly wrong with him. Like, yes, he has, I think the actor who played Felix, he talked to me in an interview about how he has a lot of pressures and expectations placed onto him by other people, but that's not a character flaw. So it's, it's very, I absolutely agree with Oliver's motivation. And I think that's one of the things that I guess I didn't reflect upon immediately when I came out of the film, but certainly as I was researching for this episode, I did start to think about why, like, why does he do all of this? To me, it just seems like chaos. He's motivated by wanting chaos and wanting to cause destruction. I think chaos is fine, but I really think they should have distinguished whether Oliver wants Felix the person or whether Oliver wants Felix's life for himself. Cause you know, the final scene when Oliver is dancing around in Felix's house, basically. I think that is a great scene. But that scene kind of implies that she just wanted Felix's life, right? To me, that's not what his dialogue earlier indicated. Like someone who wanted Felix's life and not Felix the person wouldn't have done what Oliver did in the bathroom. There's a scene where Oliver is really disturbing in a bathtub. And that's not, that's what a person who wants Felix's romance. Yeah, exactly. That's what someone who wanted Felix the person would do. That's not what a person who wanted wealth or wanted Felix's life. I'm getting like mixed signals from that. Yeah. He didn't seem to grieve for Felix. I'm not saying he'd grieve in like a normal way, but he didn't grieve at all. It was like, once he got the estate, it was like, that's it. That's what he wanted to do with life. It's very strange, isn't it? Like when they're in that scene with the curtains and they're trying to, that great scene when they're all eating a shepherd's pie. It still seems like this thing has just happened. Yes, fine. Oliver orchestrated it. Oliver, spoilers, killed Felix. So, you know, yes, he probably comes through the grieving process already, whatever. But even in that scene when he's watching his family grieve, he's still plotting because he then tells the butler, who is a great character. I can't remember his name, but he's great. Very on theme. But he tells the butler about how, or he tells the family about how Farley was essentially, yeah, just doing drugs at this party or being irresponsible at this party. And he's still, the cogs are still turning in an effort to try and, you know, provoke this family's downfall. Like, where's the grieving process? But then, I won't go into it, but like, what he does to his grave, like, there's absolutely a contradiction there in terms of, is it that he's just seen Felix, he's seen how other people treat him, he's seen how, it's not necessarily just about wealth, but it's about the expectations that other people have and the way that you're so adored. Isn't he wants that, or is he wants Felix? Because absolutely, I think there is a contradiction. Yeah. But also, I think if his motivations were to be adored as Felix is, he, none of his other motivations go towards that. Like, I think, especially at university, or he didn't want to be adored like Felix, I don't think he just wanted Felix. And because he didn't, he was not bothered about the friendship groups and the girls that Felix, the only reason he wanted to be with that girl that Felix was with was because she was Felix's. Yeah. And he wanted his belongings, because they were shared. It was a shared thing. And I think there was something in that, I think it raises the question why he killed him. And you could argue, I mean, just before he was killed, Felix did say that he, like, Oliver makes his blood run cold. And so that's kind of like a point of no return. Oliver knows that he can never be with Felix the way he has been. And so you could argue, well, he's, you know, that's almost what he's grieving for that period of like, friendship, that romantic intro, whatever you want to call it, is over. But then we don't really see him grieving over that either. It's not even that he's not grieving over Felix, it's just that he's not grieving at all. And I feel like if he were obsessed, as the film kind of led us to believe for the majority, then he would be. It wouldn't be his motivation to get the estate to get his family to, you know, controlling his family doesn't matter anymore. It wouldn't, if Felix was the object of his obsession only. Yeah, that could have been an interesting turning point, actually. Like when Felix tells him that you make my blood run cold. I feel like if they had explained, if they had shown Oliver grieving, then I would have been able to make the leap that, oh, initially he wanted Felix the person. When he realized that was not possible, he just thought, oh, then I'll take everything that Felix has for myself. But they never really illustrated that jump. Like, except the next day, oh, he's just fine. You know, he walks out onto the balcony and he sees all of them running to the maze, to Felix's body, and he's just like, fine with it. He's just watching. Yeah. He's just watching it happen. Yeah. No, it is intriguing. I will just go back to it, because we've already mentioned the cinematography and the actual look at the film, just because we've now mentioned the final scene. I do think the parallel between the long one take of him dancing through the house, and then the one take of him at the start of the film, where he's kind of in that crowded Oxford environment on, you know, freshers week. And he's in a little suit and he's being made fun of. And he's hiding himself. And then obviously, at the end of the film, he's doing the opposite of that. It's a great parallel and showing kind of the shift that he's gone through. So, again, the look of the film, it is good. I told you, I love the bookends. Like, I love when a film bookends. And it's just, and he has, you know, his character arc, if you want to call it a character arc. I mean, it is a character arc. He's just come to destruction, but he seems to be happy with that. And he's in an empty house. Like, what does he have? Yeah. So, it does raise a lot of questions, probably more than it answers. But it is bookending this, like, phenomenon. And the filmmaking is just stunning. It is great. Yeah. How did you guys feel about what the film was actually trying to do? How it was trying to affect its audience? Because I read this review of it and it was talking about how, you know, this is a film about an upper class family who, yes, they're ignorant, but they're not bad. And Oliver is this, yeah, this embodiment of class mobility, essentially. He is something that transgresses a boundary. He is middle class and he transgresses into that old money, upper class environment. This review was talking about, is this film actually just trying to warn upper class people about the dangers of allowing people who should not belong in your space into your space? And obviously, that's quite a sinister interpretation of it. But I can see what they were going for with that. So yeah, what did you guys feel about what the film was actually trying to achieve? I have no idea what the film was trying to achieve. I have no clue. I think, I don't know, because I don't think every film has to have a specific message. Some stuff in the movie, I did think, at least when I first saw it, I was like, oh, that must be for shock value. Like specifically the grave scene and the bathtub scene, where I was, even for me, like, I'm not easily disturbed. And then when I saw the bathtub part, I was like, wow. Yeah. I mean, I've not seen Promising Young Woman, but are there similar moments in that in terms of these shock value moments or no? There are a lot of moments that are shocking, but I don't think they are done at all for shock value. Like, there's a lot of, all moments in Promising Young Woman hold gravity to them. And I think that's the stark difference between them. I think Promising Young Woman is very clear what our protagonist wants the entire time. And it is a very clear study of her life and what she is now doing. And we are rooting for her the entire time. And I think it brings us on that journey so brilliantly. Whereas with Saltburn, we are obviously put in Oliver's perspective of the obsessed person. But even though we see that, we don't quite understand him. I don't think we ever understand him. And that's not necessarily an awful thing. I don't think we always have to be in our protagonist's head all the time and be like, oh, I understand exactly what they're thinking and what they're going to do. Because there are a lot of moments in it where you don't know what Oliver is going to do. And it really shocks you. And I think that's for a good reason. Like, the way he controls the family, to me, came as a big surprise. Because obviously, he's been quite a small person throughout the entire film. He's kind of really, he's marginalised in this sort of group of his own. And when he tries to, he can't control people as a group. And I think he knows that. But when he controls them individually, in different ways, it came as a massive surprise. But I think that was a good thing. So even though I didn't quite understand his motivations throughout, it was still nice to sort of follow him. But I'm not really sure what it was trying to say at the same time. Yeah. And I think what's a real shame about that is that the film touches on some really interesting ideas. Maybe even ideas that Fennell felt like she didn't have the experiences or authority to talk about. But it touched on these ideas and then doesn't really delve into them in the way that you want. So I've already mentioned Farley's character. And I think he, to me, is probably the most interesting character in the film. I think he's really interesting. And I think, you know, there are these moments when Farley's race is raised and discussed and the relationship that the rich family has with race is discussed. But it's not really explored in depth. And I found these moments really, really fascinating. And I think so, Farley, he is the cousin of Felix. And Felix's family, essentially, they support him, right? So they're paying for his education, basically, aren't they? So, you know, they have a lot of control over him. So I think it was the actor in an interview who plays Farley talking about how Farley feels a great pressure to be, again, it's about that perception of class to be perceived a certain way. And the character himself, so he talks about being mixed race and this shame that there is around playing up one side of yourself that you feel is more acceptable to the people around you. And I mean, Farley's character absolutely embodies that. And I think these moments of the exploration of race and control and performativity are so interesting. And I think, to me, it would have actually been really interesting if it had been Farley who's doing the things that Oliver was doing, because his motivation would have made sense. It would have been a reclaiming of control. I mean, actually, this isn't my idea. Other people have said this in reviews, but like, he would have been reclaiming that control that his family has been wielding over him. That would have made sense. But I felt it was a shame that these themes of racism, kind of racial tensions, almost, weren't really explored. I mean, how did you guys feel about it? Yeah, I totally agree. I think there are other issues as well, like they bring up eating disorders and stuff like that, and they don't go into that. And that's also a method in which Oliver uses to control her. And I think though Farley isn't really controlled by his race, I don't think, in the film. No, I don't think he's... No, not by the family anyway. No. I think it more just adds to the dynamic. Yeah, it does. It does. It creates. And I think it's mentioned once by Oliver. No, no, sorry. It's mentioned once by Felix. And he says, we don't see you as different. Yeah. It's almost like overstating it, which... Yeah. The idea of not seeing race, which is obviously just ridiculous. But that's brought up in the scene when Farley addresses to Felix how Felix doesn't know the names of his black staff members. So there definitely, there is that dynamic there. Definitely. Yeah. I agree. Yeah, I don't know. Because at the same time, I feel like if they did focus on race more, then the get out symbolism or the great get out comparisons would be even more intense, considering how they're already pretty intense now, right? Like everyone online is saying, oh, this is get out for, but we're the white protagonists rather than the black one. So I do think that maybe if they make Farley the main character, and he was like entering this world for the first time, it might have been too similar. Maybe. Because I did read some criticisms that some people had issues with this script because it was very evocative or very similar from other works that had come before. Yeah, it didn't do a lot. I mean, when we came out of it, it was very, very easy to find other films. I mean, if they push the race, the race thing even further, I wonder if people would have been even more critical, like, oh, it's just like a rehash of get out. Yeah. To me, it's just, it's just so much about motivation. And I think that, you know, having Farley's character acknowledge that there is some sort of a racial dynamic going on, that only and then knowing that Farley cares a lot about being perceived as rich, even though the implication is that his family isn't, it's that he's being, you know, looked after by Felix and family. I just think that would have given so much of a more complex motivation than what Oliver had. Because as we've already mentioned, there's nothing about his home life, there's nothing really about his identity as a white middle class man from Liverpool, there doesn't really seem to be anything about his identity that gives him motivation, or, and the one thing that does is made up, you know, that, yeah, so I don't know, I just thought it would have been interesting to see it that way. It's also very interesting that the family, I mean, they seem to want to take on people as like projects. Yeah, they have someone staying there, who's clearly outside their welcome, who has a problem with substance abuse. And they kind of see that as, oh, we're helping her. And they kind of see Farley as, oh, they're helping Farley. And then they see Oliver as like another kind of string to their bow, almost like, oh, we've got another one, but he's, you know, he's from a working class family, and he needs help. And they kind of, that's the way they kind of add gravity to themselves. To give them something to do. Yeah, I think that's really, I think it's so they can pat themselves on the back. Yeah. Like, oh, we have this mixed race person living in our house, and we're taking care of him. And oh, we're living with this working class. Yeah, we're taking care of him too. It's really like, just like, yeah, pat themselves on the back and say, oh, we did a good job. Yeah, yeah, it feels like it's for that image. And I feel like even though Farley may know that, it doesn't seem to bother him in that sense. I think he knows it. And it bothers him when there's someone else that comes along. I think that's why Oliver, that's why Farley really doesn't like Oliver. Yeah, he knows that he's brought that project. Exactly. But he doesn't like the idea of there being another project. He wants to be their project. That's why he confronts him during the party, right? During the party, he's like, I know what you're doing. This is my house. Yeah, that's the thing, he says it's his house. Yeah, they're my benefactors, not yours. Yeah. But what I think is really interesting about the comparison between Farley and Oliver's characters is even though, as you say, they're both projects of the family, they have a very similar role to the family. They're doing very different things. Farley, as the actor said, is playing into what he thinks people want from him. Yes, he is the character to show emotion when they are grieving, so the mask has slipped. But he does, I mean, when he's at the party, Oliver recognises him. He says he recognises him because he's wearing a stigma ring. And he plays into this upper class lifestyle, whereas Oliver is doing the opposite of that. He's not playing into what he thinks these people will want from him in terms of what is acceptable. He's playing into what people want from him in terms of what is interesting, and what is unusual, and what is almost like, to a degree, seen as exotic by these people. And oh, wow, like, oh, my gosh, like, he must have been born drunk, but he must have, you know, like, all of these things that they see as completely foreign and separate. And Farley's doing the opposite of that. I just find that really interesting that, yes, they are the same thing to the family, but they are the characters are dealing with that in themselves in very, very different ways. I think it's interesting that you mentioned you brought up Venetia, who is Felix's sister here. So again, there are issues that are raised with her character that, again, aren't really brought up very much at all afterwards. You've already mentioned the ED, but we also have themes of beauty, especially in relation to the female characters. So we've got Felix's mother, who's played by Rosamund Pike, who's brilliant in this. She's really, really good. She talks about, she was a model. And she talks about how she despises ugliness. She's got a real issue with it. But obviously, she's now a middle aged woman who was a model. And so you can only think about what would be happening to her in 20 years time, when societal standards of her beauty start to slip. But also with Venetia, Oliver mentions how her currency is her sexuality. So I think, again, it's these themes that are really, really interesting, but that aren't explored in as much depth as they could have been. Yeah, I agree. I found that theme very interesting, and Venetia's relationship to her mother, because obviously, Oliver appealed to the mother at one point, when he's alone with Elizabeth. And he says, they're talking about Venetia. And he says, Oh, well, it must be very difficult for you to be her mother, because you're so beautiful. So basically appeasing her ego. She wants to be beautiful. She wants to be seen as beautiful. And he is making it, you know, her know that he does. And this is seen as a control thing, like Oliver at this point is controlling everyone through different ways. And he's controlling Venetia, by kind of almost playing into an insecurity. Yeah, yeah, insecurity. He tries to control her eating. Yeah. Which is another form of control, which eating disorders are famously used as a form of control. And she's now getting control from Oliver. So it's kind of like he's adding to the eating disorder in a way, and he knows he is. But that's not, he doesn't see that as his emotional responsibility. He's just controlling people. And so it's just very interesting that mother daughter dynamic. Well, they're never seen to be very loving towards one another at all. It's almost a competition of beauty. Absolutely. And I think that's a really interesting dynamic. I would like to have seen it explored more. But obviously, there's a lot explored in this film. A lot that touched on as well. Yeah, absolutely. So I mean, we're talking about the, I guess, supporting characters here. So what did you think about the casting of the film in general? I thought Elspeth's mom, Rosamund Pike's character was the best one. It was my favorite. She was brilliant. She was really funny. And I think I really like, I had gripes with Oliver's motivation, as you know. However, I did really like how manipulative and intelligent he was with how he was pressing each character's buttons in the correct way. Like when he was talking to Elspeth, I think it was roughly halfway through the film, when he was like, Oh, I noticed, I forgot what the female character's name was the one who left quite early on. Yeah, with the red hair. I forgot. Yeah. Yeah, he basically said, she seemed kind of, you know, inauthentic last night. Didn't you notice that? And Elspeth was like, Oh, yeah, I thought I was the only one who saw that. But I'm clearly, surely she didn't. And she's, I think she's just trying to make it seem like she's deep. Yeah, intelligent, or that she notices these things. So when Oliver says something, she's like, Yeah, I thought I was the only one who thought out last night. It's kind of like she, he's like feeding into her insecurities by saying, like, Oh, I get you. And I'm actually a deep person, too. So I think all of these things about these people and Elspeth is just kind of blindly agreeing to seem to seem sophisticated. So I thought that was really smart. How he was. I think someone was it? Was it you last night who mentioned the similarities with the TV show you were the protagonist who is who is also a very manipulative person who knows exactly which buttons to press to get people to like them and accept them and kind of like be validated and accepted into this, you know, kind of different group. Yeah, that was really interesting. Now, I do think I do think all of the I can't remember the actor's name. Yeah, I do think he did. His performance was great. I think Farley's performance is also I thought his performance was brilliant. I mean, we mentioned he's in he was in midsummer, wasn't he? I think he was brilliant. Yeah, he was part of the English couple who ended up had a very unfortunate fate. Yeah. But he was I thought his performance was amazing. I think. Yeah. I mean, some people had criticized. I mean, I saw a Guardian review criticizing Oliver's casting saying that he actually was basically too old. I think he acted in his 30s. He's playing an 18 year old. I mean, it's a challenging one, because I think he did such a great job of playing that character. But I do think it would have been interesting to see an actual an 18 year old in that role, because I think it would have changed the dynamic hugely. It probably would have. You're right. I think it would have. However, I think I stopped seeing him as like, I don't know how old he is in real life. But I stopped seeing him for his real age. And I start seeing him as like an 18 year old, just because of how good his performance is. But I agree, it would have been interesting, because I think if you see someone as younger, you immediately have this kind of, oh, my God, they are, but their age, like that kind of protective instinct as well over younger people, like, who have only just turned into adults, you know, it's like, oh, they don't know what they're doing. They've never done this before. And I think it does get lost slightly, I think, with an older actor. I feel like if they would have gotten someone younger to play Oliver, he wouldn't have been as menacing as he was in the movie. Like there's a scene where he was talking to the father, I forgot his name. But the father is basically trying to bribe him to leave their family alone after all of these deaths start occurring. And Oliver's like, no, but I can't leave. You know, Elspeth needs me. That wouldn't have been as creepy if the person was younger, I think. I agree. I think it's a difficult one. I think his insecurity and how we are meant to perceive the character at the start of the film, which is deeply insecure, deeply out of place. That would have made more sense if it was an 18 year old playing that character. And I think it would have almost been more relatable. I think we can all relate to being going into a new environment, be that a new school, university, whatever, and feeling the need to perform a little bit. I think there were aspects of Oliver's character where I thought myself, I was like, yes, of course, you know, we have, I think like everyone's behaved in that way where you've been around a group of people and you felt a need to show them how you're different just to make yourself able to stand out or something like this. You know, I think that would have made more sense as an 18 year old. But yes, I mean, the control that he has over his family may have seemed, I don't know about less sinister. I always feel like it would have seemed more odd and more unusual, but that could have added to how sinister it was that an 18 year old, especially a child, is able to wield this control. You know what I mean? I think, yes, it would have seemed more odd, but maybe that could have added to it. I don't know. I think his performance was amazing. I wouldn't say, I think we should have had an 18 year old in this role because I think he was great. But I think I just, I would have been interested to see how that would change the dynamic. Definitely. Yeah. So this is a film set in Oxford. Granted it is set in 2007. However, I thought I probably should just ask, do you think there was anything in this film that was truthful to the Oxford experience as Cambridge students? I think that, I mean, obviously we're all post-grad and we're part-time. Exactly. In that regard, but just coming into a formal dinner and even just not knowing where to sit, not being in a group, not, you know, not having that already set down. And I think when he sits down, he says, oh, well, everyone's Billy No-Mates because we're all new. And he says, no, no one else is. It's just us. Yeah. And I think that was just, just that environment was actually portrayed very, very well. I can't speak for a lot of the undergraduates. Yeah. But I think, as I think you were saying earlier, like just feeling like Oxbridge is only for a certain type of person. Definitely translated. And that absolutely feels true to me. Yeah. That's how I felt. I mean, yes. So we're all, we're on the same course. We're all doing our masters, but it's a part-time course. So, you know, yes, fair enough. It's not exactly the same experience. However, I do think it did capture. And I think, you know, this made more sense at the start because it's when you think that Oliver genuinely is someone who just feels out of place and he's not manipulating the whole college. But it does feel like, you know, this is an environment that is only for certain people. And I think that is absolutely a truth. I think certain people are made to feel more as though they belong here. And, and, you know, yeah. Yeah. Maybe, maybe at the start of the film, Oliver did feel like, you know, someone who just maybe wasn't very socially, you know, like maybe, maybe it was very popular in school. Maybe, you know what I mean? Maybe he just felt like, oh, my gosh, I'm in a formal hall. This is ridiculous. This is so, you know, out of my comfort zone. You know, and I think, I think there is an accuracy to that. I think these formal halls where you have almost like rituals going on and stuff like that, it feels like old money and it feels like this is an environment made for these people, you know, because we then we go to Fultburn and we see that there are similarities with, you know, the way in which Felix lives, his family dress up for dinner. They have, they have formal dinners basically. They have that same thing in their own house. So yes, Oxford is probably for people like that who can understand that environment. Yeah. And it's also so to us that Oliver is on a scholarship. So we, so we can use that, you know, that he hasn't come from money. That's what we assume at the stage. And obviously, though he's come from a middle class family, he's not come from what Felix has come from. Yeah. And so there's a big disconnect there. Wasn't Felix's girlfriend at one point criticizing? Felix said, oh, why don't we let Oliver come with us to a party? And she was like, oh, but who's going to sit with him? He's weird. Like all of his clothes are from Oxfam or something like that. Yeah. So I was like that. Yeah. And it's also awkward. I felt very 2000s. Yeah. Cause it's like now that would be like everyone's clothes. And also when Oliver walks in, I guess he walks into the formal hall. Right. And I guess it is, it is somewhat relatable because I'm sure all of us did have our matriculations and at least for mine, it seemed like everyone there already knew someone there. So kind of when I entered, everyone was already talking amongst themselves. It's like finding a place to sit or like finding, you know, during when you're, when everyone's grabbing drinks, finding people to talk to, it's kind of weird. Yeah. I feel like everyone already has their own group. Like the undergrads already all have their own. Yeah. It feels like there's like a club within. Yeah. You're in Cambridge or Oxford where you're not part of the. Yeah. No, I agree. I think that's somewhat to do with like undergraduates and they all, you know, have that shared experience. Everyone knows everyone as well. But yeah. And it felt like, you know, it had that vibe in the, in the film that everyone knew everyone prior. Yeah. Like they were all kind of always going to Oxford. Well, they probably, half of them probably went to boarding school together. Yeah. They've kind of all come in together as a shared experience because they knew that they were going to go to Oxford anyway. It wasn't that process of like applying and hoping and like all of this, you know, stuff that we can assume happened to Oliver from what we're showing. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely very different. Yeah. I found the, um, I don't know if it's called the same thing at Oxford, but the ball, the May ball where they go to, um, yeah, I get when he's got a rented suit. So I think it's interesting that that is, that is probably something I very much doubt that Oliver actually do. I doubt he could have done. Did Oliver intentionally rent a suit that didn't fit so that Farley would think that he couldn't afford a suit maybe, but you know, like that's probably truthful to his character that he rented a suit. It didn't fit him properly, whatever. They didn't confirm or deny that. Yeah, exactly. But I mean, yeah, like that's probably a very like truthful experience that, you know, some people are feeling like, okay, I'm, I'm not going to be wearing a dress that is nice enough, or I'm wearing the same thing that I wore, you know, you know, I think that there probably is truth in this. And I don't know, it's still, it's still, it doesn't fill the gaps in terms of Oliver's motivations. Um, but I think, yes, I think, I think there's a truth to it. And I think it makes sense because the director attended Oxford herself. So she probably is what she's talking about. So I'm going to finish by asking what films did you feel like this was similar to? Well, like I mentioned, uh, there's a television television series, you about the manipulative psychopath who kind of into like pushes and integrates himself into other people's lives. Also, obviously, get out as one that was mentioned numerous times already. And I guess Parasite is another interesting one. Yeah. Yeah. I think the first half of this film was get out. Well, the second half was much more Parasite. I agree with that flop in the middle. The moment he went to his parents house. That's when it shifted. Yeah. And I think it's because Oliver was manipulating them by himself. Like, you know, in Parasite, the lower class family was manipulating and taking advantage of them, the upper class family, but because there was more than one of them, they could discuss their plan with each other, you know, table like, Oh, you, you be this tutor. I be this tutor. Yeah. We weave ourselves into their house. Oliver was doing it all by himself. Yeah. It was not like he would talk to a mirror and say, Oh, this is my plan. Yeah. So it's interesting that halfway through the film, when you realize what he actually wants and what kind of person he is, that the film kind of swaps from get out to like the parasite. Absolutely. I did feel the same way. Yeah. It's interesting as well with Parasite, because that's another film that kind of changes almost halfway through or halfway through. Yeah. It kind of flips and it becomes a film about something else, which is kind of what Saltburn was. It felt like it became a film about something else. So I think that similarities in, in terms of structure and like thematic differences as well. I think in terms of, I think it just rang this for me because it was about an obsessive character, but like, I think I mentioned Black Swan and Whiplash like as being films where you follow the obsessor. It felt like similar-ish to those just because of that. I think it's been obviously related to like Knives Out and stuff like that, but I don't think it's very similar to Knives Out, but just in terms of, I guess, where it's set, types of characters you encounter. I think that's more down to the explicit things that are going on rather than everything else behind that. Yeah. Yeah. No, I, yeah, I agree. I mean, for me, we've talked about this outside of the podcast, but call me by your name, like in terms of it being this kind of summer film about, I guess, like to a degree, like this, this almost paradise-like escapism and this living this way for this summer. I mean, Farley even addresses it when he's, when they're having that moment at the, at the party and Farley says, you know, you're going to dream about this summer. You're going to tell your grandkids about this summer. Your, your life's never going to come close to this ever again. Well, it will cause he gets a house in the end. So, you know, but I think, I mean, and call me by your name is similar, right? Like this, this love exists one summer, except it's obviously call me by your name, except if, you know, the love wasn't reciprocated and one of them decided they just wanted to steal a house. But I mean, I felt like it was that summer vibe, the kind of, and the, the, the kind of the eroticism of it all that was absolutely there. I mean, I can't go into it too much, but the bathtub scene, that's an example. Um, but like a direct comparison. Yeah. I like that field. I like, I mean, we talked about this when we did our midsummer podcast, but movies that have these, that are sinister, but that are set in, you know, it's very bright and it's beautiful. I mean, yes, fine. It does. There are scenes that are set at night and in parties and it's dark, but in general, it's a summer movie and it feels warm. And I like that. I like that as a juxtaposition. I think that's very cool. Agreed. And also, I think a lot of people have said it feels like a vampire film and it does kind of bring attention to that a couple of times. So I think he does, like I'm a vampire at some point. He's got like the blood, but I think it's interesting that Senna drew a direct comparison to that. Like she knew it would be compared to a vampire film and it feels like that kind of someone coming into this family in order to kind of eat them all. In this way, it feels very gothic at times. It does. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think I even thought a review maybe that was comparing it to Dracula and talking about how there's some, what makes Dracula threatening is that there's something seductive about him and that Oliver, and I mean, even I've seen Emerald Fennell was talking in an interview about the casting of Oliver and how there was something, I don't know if she said the word seductive exactly. I'm sure she didn't, but there's something about the actor who played Oliver, like he can be both sinister, seductive, sexy. And it is that kind of vampiric, like he has an appeal. Otherwise his family would not be inviting him there. Even the mom, she says, I hate ugliness, but you're not ugly. Your eyes are lovely. Like there's something and she wants him to stick around in this house. There is definitely, there's absolutely some sort of, it's like a parasitic, but there's something that, you know, the family want him there for whatever reason. Definitely. And it's funny, he knows how to switch it on and off, you know, kind of mask himself to different situations. He's very good at like chameleons, like chameleoning himself into different environments. Like he can be invisible when he wants to be invisible. He's not, at the same time, he's not ugly and he's not, like she says, he can turn on this like seductive nature. And, but it's very like particular to him. He kind of knows what people want and he kind of makes himself that. And he's so good at planting seeds of doubt and sowing distrust among these characters who have known each other for so long. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah, definitely. It was Farley and stuff like that. Talked a lot about the twist. I did kind of guess that Farley didn't steal the plate, but like, you know, he does have that ability to, to yeah, just break down everybody's trust and come in and completely destroy everything for himself. So yeah. Thank you guys for joining me. This has been really great talking about this film. I mean, yeah, I would, I would, to be honest, I probably would recommend going and seeing it. It is an entertaining film. It lacks the depth. Yeah. Yeah. Probably depth. I mean, it lacks the character motivations and the thematic richness and coherence, I think, to be on a par with anything like Get Out or anything like that. But I would recommend going and seeing it. It is entertaining. Yeah. At the same time, I think it's one of my favorite films of the year. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I still think that even though it lacks that, I think it's such an enjoyable film. It's very beautiful. It's obviously, you know, it's very well directed. Yeah. But thank you guys so much for joining me. It's been great chatting about this film. Yeah. This has been Talking Pictures. Thanks for listening.