English Interview with Dr. De Anda Muniz for Lit Project

The transcription is a conversation between Alexandra and her History of Latinos professor, Dr. Michael De Ana Muniz, discussing their educational journey, focusing on transitioning from high school to college, discovering sociology, pursuing a Ph.D., and navigating academia during COVID-19. Dr. Muniz shares experiences of teaching at various universities while completing his dissertation in nine years and highlights the importance of job security in academia. Despite challenges during the pandemic, Dr. Muniz reflects on a positive living situation. Hello, I'm Alexandra and this is for my English project regarding my profession and I'm here with Dr. Michael De Ana Muniz. And a little introduction, he's my, they're my History of Latinos professor. I actually really enjoy the class, I always have fun being there. Cool. How are you today? I'm good. Okay, I'm sorry if I'm a little out of breath. I will edit this out, but I went upstairs and okay, just some beginner questions. Like, how was schooling after, like, high school? Like, regarding college, your masters and PhDs. Oh, yeah. So, I hated K-12. I shouldn't say K-12. I hated high school. That's really good. Yeah. I mean, I was an overachiever as an elementary school student. I always needed straight A's. In high school, I stopped caring as much because I didn't trust my teachers and I didn't see the point in anything. So, then when I got to college, I was like, oh, like, we actually get to talk about our analysis of things. It's not just about memorizing the right answer. I was like, this is where I'm supposed to be. I can talk about things and think through them and try to understand things that are relevant to my life, too. Because that's when I started actually taking classes. I was like, oh, this is helping me understand my life. And I think sociology is, like, at the heart of that. I never took sociology. Actually, I did take a sociology class in high school, but like I said, I didn't really pay attention. And I don't actually think it was sociology. The teacher didn't know what sociology was, probably. But it was more like a social sciences class. But, yeah, I remember taking, like, introduction to sociology. I only took it because it fit my schedule. I didn't actually know what sociology was. And then I was like, oh, wait. This is giving words so that it's asking questions that I've had my whole life that I didn't have the words to ask those questions. And then it's also giving me the answers. So I had all these experiences where I was, like, frustrated, angry, sad, confused, like, all of these emotions I had as a young person. And then sociology was giving me a language to actually articulate what those questions are and then actually answer them. So I was like, ooh, I want to keep doing this. So I kept taking more sociology classes. And then I ended up meeting with one of my professors. And I said, how do I keep doing this? And he was like, what do you mean? I'm like, how do I, like, just always do what you do? How do I do what you do? And he's like, well, you need to go to grad school. And I was like, what's that? And he actually gave me, I think I was a sophomore when I met with him. And he gave me basically, like, a roadmap. He's like, this year is what you should do. Your third year is what you should do. And then your fourth year is what you should do. And then he just kind of demystified a lot of the process for me. And so that was really great. And so that's what I did. I just kept, I wanted to stay in college forever, and here I am. That's really relatable. And, like, how was, like, internships and looking for jobs? That didn't exist for me. I feel really bad sometimes because students are like, oh, do you know of any internships? I tell them, I'm like, I've never done one. I've never looked at one. I've never had, like, a nine-to-five job. Like, I've just been in academia since I was 23. I've never had a job. And then before that I was doing, like, part-time jobs to make it through college. Even when I was 15, I was working. Oh, wow. So, yeah, I never had, like, an actual salary job, not in academia. So I can't really help people. Like, I never had a resume. Me neither. Until I got a job, I never had a resume. Yeah, because academia doesn't have resumes. They have CVs, which are different than resumes. And what are CVs? A curriculum vita. Oh. It's a resume, but it's a different format. So a resume will have... Your job experience. Job experience, your title, like, your skills. And it's supposed to be kind of short. Really short. A CV is really focused on where's your education, what are your areas of expertise, what academic positions have you held, what research experience do you have, what publications do you have, what grants have you gotten. It's, like, a different thing. So I've only had that. So I've had to learn what a resume is with students, because then I try to help them with their resumes. I'm like, I think I know what it is now. Like, maybe, maybe. Yeah, but I've never made one. But anyway, yeah, so I really liked college. I loved all my classes. I read everything all the time. I went to every class. I met with my professors during their office hours just to talk about stuff. I was very focused on academia. And, yeah, so that's where I am where I am, because I'm a big nerd. How long did your Ph.D. take? I think I took nine years. Oh, wow. Oh, wow. And I think the way I try to explain it to students is the Ph.D. takes as long as you make it take. Because in reality, you're only taking three years of actual coursework. After those three years, you're supposed to be working on your dissertation. And so I know people who finish in five years because they do the coursework, they do the dissertation, they get a job, and they're out. Wow, that's really impressive. Me, I did my coursework, and then I kind of, like, well, mostly I was teaching a lot because I wanted to make money. But that meant I had to teach at, like, four different schools at the same time. Was it, like, high school or, like, college, community college or college? Universities. So I taught at DePaul University because it was a private school and I needed to pay more. I taught at the Art Institute of Chicago, the School of the Art Institute of Chicago, so it's an art school. They paid pretty well. And I got to be with artists all day, which was a yes. I taught at Elmhurst University, which is in the suburbs of Chicago. And then I taught at the University of Illinois at Chicago. So I'd be doing all those, which didn't leave much time for me to actually do my dissertation work. And I think it was probably around year seven, year six, I was like, okay, I need to get out of here. I need to actually, like, prioritize my dissertation. So I ended up cutting back on my teaching so I could focus on my dissertation. I was kind of done with it. I could have finished in my eighth year. But, again, my program discouraged you from graduating until you had a job lined up because they're like, if you graduate and you don't have a job, then you're going to be unemployed and we can't provide you any support. As long as you're a grad student, you can still have health care, you can still have, like, some access to money, and it actually helps you when you apply for jobs. Because if you're applying to jobs and you are unaffiliated with any institution, it doesn't look as good as if you're a grad student still. And they're like, oh, okay, you're still working on it. But if you were to have your PhD and then have no job and you're applying to jobs, you'd be like, why couldn't you get a job? Exactly, like something must be wrong with you. Yeah, so that's why it took nine years. Nine years, yeah, I heard, like, the average is, like, 11-ish. That's for history. History? History takes 11 because historical research just takes a long time. It's a lot of reading. It's a lot of traveling to different archives and then a lot of time in the archives, which you'll see next week, it looks like. So, yeah. So, nine years. Nine years, wow. It goes by really fast. Really? I mean, yeah, I see it, yeah. I mean, I was clearly, like, I think my sister is, like, what, seven years old? She was born seven years ago, but I still see her as a baby. And I'm like, oh, you talk and you walk. It was so weird. She was born during, like, COVID or whatever. Yeah, it was kind of more strange after that. After COVID, definitely. And how was COVID for you around that time? So, I actually got this job. So, I interviewed for this job in December 2019. Oh, wow. So, I remember interviewing, like, oh, we do this, this is how things are, and this is what goes on on campus. And then I got the job offer February of 2020. Oh, that's where, like, it started getting really bad. And so, I started negotiating, and then, like, a couple days after I got the offer, things started getting shut down. And I started hearing rumors through people I know that some universities were taking back their job offers. So, then I was like, okay, actually, no, I don't want to negotiate anymore. Let me sign the contract and let me have this job. And so, I signed it. I got the job. That was March 2020. That's when things completely started shutting down by then, yeah. And I had to finish writing my dissertation then. But because everything was shut down, I didn't have access to a lot of my stuff. Yeah. And at that point, I had moved out of the apartment I was living in for, like, eight years. And I moved in with my grandma to help her out. I moved in with her in January. And then she has – I mean, she's old, and she has asthma. So, when they were like, oh, if you're staying with people that are – You should not be staying with them, yeah. So, I had to move out of my grandma's house. So, all my stuff was in different places, and I was supposed to write a dissertation, and the world was falling apart, and people were dying. And, like – so, it was rough on that end, but I finished the dissertation, which was the most important part. But overall, it was – I don't know if I want to say this. It wasn't that bad. It's okay. Who I was with at the time, it worked really well because I knew people that were – like, the situations they were stuck in, they were miserable because they were fighting with the people they were with, or they were just unhappy. No, yeah. I've heard some horror stories where, like, they just couldn't handle the people they were staying with. I had a really good situation where the people I was with, we all liked each other, and we had a lot of fun together during that time. And I was making my Bay Area salary while living in Chicago and not paying rent. That's really good. And I wasn't paying rent. So, I just paid off all my student loans. And so, it was actually – yeah, it wasn't the worst thing for me, besides my family members dying. But, like, outside of that, compared to what other people were dealing with personally and financially, it was actually not that bad of a time. Mm-hmm. No, yeah, that's, like – like, I understand when you say that because it's, like, some people, like, tell you their horrors and I'm like, oh. Yeah. Like, well, at least it wasn't that bad. But, like, so there's still, like, some guilt. I completely get it. Like, COVID was a terrible time. And still is, yeah. Yeah. No, COVID is still around. There are people dying, so. I still know a lot of people that aren't vaccinated. Like, they truly believe – don't believe in the vaccination. I'm like, oh, okay. Yeah. Oh, yeah. COVID was a terrible time. Well, it was okay. It was okay. It was whatever. But how would you explain sociology to someone? I remember you mentioned that in high school it was more of, like, a social science class rather than – Yeah. For me, sociology is the study of social patterns and social organization. Mm-hmm. So, yeah, why is it that we behave in the ways that we do, not on an individual level but on a collective level? Mm-hmm. And so, like, yeah. So it's really, I guess, in a superficial, simplified way, it's a study of human behavior as patterns and in collectives. Mm-hmm. So, yeah, I remember – not last year. Last semester, I was in my communications class, and we were talking about the sociology of health and how community enrichment, a lot of them are Laotians or Vietnamese, and a lot of them have heart issues, even though they don't have a history of heart issues. But since they're built around stress, they have to provide for their families. It's just – it's just become a generational thing. Mm-hmm. And I just – that's what really locked in sociology for me, especially, like, looking towards sociology in the health field because it's, like, not a coincidence that a huge group of people just decide to get sick, especially revolving around heart problems. Yeah. It was really interesting. Yeah, you find that in a lot of health issues, like, black women in the United States have higher infant mortality rates. In hospitals, yeah. In the United States than black women in other countries. Mm-hmm. Why is that? Or why is it that, like, Latino immigrants have worse health issues in the United States than they do in their countries that they're from? Mm-hmm. And that's not – it's not just a biological thing. No. Because it's, like, most of the time, they don't even have history. Yeah, I think – Well, now it's more normalized. I feel like in a lot of Hispanic families, at least one, there is someone with diabetes or suffering from a heart disease. Yeah. Yeah. Heart disease and hypertension. Diabetes. All these things. Mm-hmm. But the reality is, like, public health scholars talk about how the majority of what determines a health outcome is social. It's not individual behaviors. It's not genetics. It's do you live in a community that has high pollution? Do you have access to quality health care? Mm-hmm. What kind of job are you working that's increasing? Exactly. It's always revolved around jobs. Yeah, it's social. It's not just, like, the individual behavior problem, which is often how we think about health. Mm-hmm. So, yeah, sociology lets us understand all those things, I think. And it's such, like, a big branch. Like, you can branch into basically any other, like, work. You can work in business. You can work in law. You can work in the medical field. Mm-hmm. And it's just – I like how broad it is. Yeah, as long as people are involved, that's social. People are always going to exist. In my program – so I studied Latino artists in Chicago. That was my dissertation. Mm-hmm. My friend, her dissertation was on survivors of domestic violence. Oh. My other friend, her dissertation was on beer breweries. Oh. And then I had a professor who did a research project on metal music. Oh. And it was a network analysis, so understanding how different metal genres emerge. Mm-hmm. And, like, why different genres emerge. Mm-hmm. And where do they emerge. Mm-hmm. My other friend did their dissertation on hookup apps. So they were looking at – Oh. Like, Tinder, Grindr. Grindr and Tinder. One of my other friends did breast cancer. Mm-hmm. They're, like, a health – like, a sociology of health person. So, yeah, as long as people – You can do a lot. As long as people are involved, you can study it in sociology, which is what I liked. People are just people, which is – Mm-hmm. They can be good. Sometimes, most of the time, they're really – We're complicated. Too complicated sometimes. The reason why we both do sociology – I'm, like, very complicated, but also very simple. Like, the more I've gotten into sociology, the more I feel like I understand. Mm-hmm. And things will happen. I'm, like, yeah, I know. But, of course, that's going to happen because I understand the pattern. Mm-hmm. Or people are, like, can you believe that this is happening? I'm, like, yeah. Yeah. Like, mm-hmm. This is what's supposed to happen. Mm-hmm. In your current field – like, not current field, I'm sorry. Are there any current problems within your field, like, regarding, like, sociology and ethnic studies? What do you mean? Like, especially with, like, what the government is doing, threatening, like, ethnic studies. Like, do you, like, fear that as – especially as someone that works in ethnic studies? Or do you feel secure? I think it's a little bit of both, I think. I am lucky to be in California. Mm-hmm. I'm not in Texas. Mm-hmm. And I'm not in Florida. Mm-hmm. If I was in Texas or Florida, I'd feel very insecure. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So I think there's, like, a sense of a little bit of a protective bubble in California when it comes to ethnic studies. Mm-hmm. But still, I can see the ways that even though ethnic studies isn't explicitly being targeted, I can see the ways that how higher education is being understood and reshaped is a threat to ethnic studies. Mm-hmm. And I think an example of that would be, like, the increasing emphasis on the – the increasing belief that college is a job training program. Mm-hmm. So the value of certain departments and programs in college are determined by what kind of jobs are students getting afterwards, how they're preparing students for the job market, how they're preparing students for high-paying jobs. Mm-hmm. And that's – so how much money our students make after they graduate is then a determination of our value as a program. Mm-hmm. Which is not – my – that's not what college is supposed to be in my opinion. No. And so if the expectation is that we are supposed to be preparing students to make lots of money or make good money – Mm-hmm. And ethnic studies is about critiquing systems of oppression, critiquing capitalism, critiquing the system that we live within. Mm-hmm. Like, there's a mismatch there. Exactly. Because our work is about thinking critically about the structure while the university is saying, no, no, just make them fit into it and make them like – Exactly, like – Succeed in it. Exactly. And it's like – And I'm like, that's not ethnic studies to do that. Mm-hmm. And so I see that as a threat. It's a challenge, yeah. So I see, like, that's more of a threat than just like a direct – Mm-hmm. Like, there's what you're seeing in Texas and Florida where they're just shutting down departments. Mm-hmm. But I see a more – a less visible threat that's coming from a secret place that's trying to reshape what ethnic studies is through certain pressures. Mm-hmm. Like, if you don't do these things, then we're going to take funding away from you because you're not effective as a department or as a program. Mm-hmm. So I do see that. And so that worries me. And I think – and I think students are coming in with those ideas too. Mm-hmm. Like, it's a cultural movement. Mm-hmm. I see a lot of investment in, I guess, different media outlets and even social media. Mm-hmm. Like, telling young people that, like, college is a waste of time unless you're going to major in STEM. Yeah. For business. Yeah. And other than that, it's a waste of time. Mm-hmm. And I think a lot of students, for good reasons, come in believing that. Mm-hmm. Like, they'll major in other things. Mm-hmm. Or computer science or even going into AI stuff, whatever. Mm-hmm. Because, for valid reasons, they want to be able to provide for their families to be successful however they understand success to be. Mm-hmm. And, yeah, and I think ethnic studies suffers from – like, suffers as a result of that. Mm-hmm. From that stereotype, yeah. And I think socially we suffer because if we're working – like, if you're doing engineering, if you're doing AI, and you don't have a critical analysis of how this is going to impact marginalized communities, you're just going to reproduce these systems of violence. Exactly, yeah. Which is what we're seeing. Mm-hmm. Which is why a lot of AI server farms are threatening marginalized communities of color. Mm-hmm. Their water supply, their energy supply, their environment, their pollution. Mm-hmm. Because – I don't want to say because they haven't taken enough ethnic studies classes, but – No, it is. It is. It is. But also, I don't know if I want those people in our classes. No, because – Cut that. Cut that. I'm supposed to want everybody in our classes. But, honestly – But that's understandable because it's like – clearly it's like – they wouldn't even want to be there in the first place. If it was, like, given to them, they'd be like, uh, no. No, it's a waste of time for them. Exactly. Because this stuff isn't going to help them make more money. Mm-hmm. Which, yeah, I don't want – I don't want ethnic studies, the most important thing to be – Just like as an elected – And I don't want it to be primarily focused on helping people make money because then it's not ethnic studies anymore. Mm-hmm. It's something else. Because you're fighting against that whole, like, idea that America was built on. And – but yet, it's like they're being taught to, like, fight against it. But then at the end they're taught, like, you know what? Kind of, like, lean towards it if you want money. Mm-hmm. And it's, like – Yeah. Yeah. It's a strange world. Mm-hmm. So you just – you don't like AI. Oh, no, I hate AI. AI is definitely – no, it's terrible. I don't understand what it does – like, what benefit we're getting. There's no benefit. That's really – it's just you do something quickly and that's it. Because there are – there have been some studies starting to come out that are showing that it actually doesn't make work easier. It doesn't save time. No, it doesn't. And that's what people don't understand. And so – I mean, it's really – I mean, I know the point of it. The point of it is for certain people to make a lot of money. Mm-hmm. Like, there's this – I think he was a – what was he? He was, like, a computer engineer or something like that. He actively made, like, a whole AI-like program that creates codes, like, for games or everything. So he basically, like, created this whole AI thing that took jobs away from, like, millions. Mm-hmm. But yet he's, like, benefiting from it. While everybody else is, like, suffering, he's, like, okay, well, I'm chill because I've made this. So, like, I'm okay. Yeah. Yeah, like, you see that a lot. Or, like, in classrooms. And you're right. Like, it doesn't even – like, it does – it can sometimes even take longer because some students will search up, oh, give me sources. And then those sources aren't even, like, real. And then they have to actively look for sources and actively look for, like, quotes. And it's, like, you're – you might as well just do the work yourself at that point. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I think a main part of – a main goal of it is to take away the confidence people have in themselves and their own ways of thinking. Mm-hmm. So that we'll rely on something external to us to think for us. Mm-hmm. Which – what kind of, like, world is that going to lead to when we can no longer think for ourselves? And we have to depend on these private corporations to do things – basic things for us, like, to think. Yeah, because there's – And plan things. Yeah, there's multiple studies where it's, like, saying, like, it takes away your critical thinking. Mm-hmm. And that's really the one – the most important thing in some of, like – And that's why I think studies are something about – Mm-hmm. About critical thinking. Mm-hmm. So, yeah. Mm-hmm. And – No, yeah. I've seen some, like – like – well, I'm not friends with them anymore, but they were, like – were, like – you know the GWAR? Mm-hmm. They use chat GBT to, like, do – Mm-hmm. I was, like, that's your GWAR. That's so you can graduate, like – and it wasn't even a hard topic. I think it was regarding, like, ethnic studies or something like that. And it's, like, just – just critical – Yeah, you can't – you can't write. Exactly. It's, like – Because you don't have confidence in yourself to just sit down and write something. And it's, like, you're about to graduate. Like, you've written before. It's not like it's something up. But they're, like, I just don't have time for it yet. And it's, like, nobody is going to have time to write about things like this. Yeah. But you have to take away at least, like, a – like, a little bit of time out of your day. And they're, like, no, I'm just super busy. And I'm, like, no, you're not. You don't even work. Yeah, that's – Yeah. It's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 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